The Bulls Made the Wrong Pick and Other Ironclad Conclusions from Orlando Summer League

by jksnake99 on Jul 7, 2008 9:57 PM PDT

In case you missed it, the Bulls and Heat faced off in the Orlando Summer League today (Box Score). The Heat won easily, 94-70. Beasley had an impressive 28 and 9 in 23 minutes while Rose had 10 points, 4 assists and 5 turnovers in 28 minutes. So, we can draw the conclusion that the Bulls clearly blew the pick. End of story. Former Blazer draftees Tyrus Thomas (12 pts, 10 reb, 6 fouls) and Demetrius Nichols are playing for the Bulls.

In other news, Team Oklahoma City (yes, that is what they are being called) lost handily to the Pacers, 95-78 (Box Score ). OKC was led in scoring by Jeff Green (21 pts) and Russell Westbrook (18).

Finally, the Nets defeated the host Magic, 86-74 (Box Score). Sharpshooter Jaycee Carroll (the NCAA's 3 pt % champ last year) led the Nets with 22 points and surprisingly didn't hit a 3. Chris Douglas-Roberts had 15 while the pac-10 tandem of Ryan Anderson and Brook Lopez had 14 and 10 respectively. Yuta Tabuse, the only Japanese NBA player ever, is playing for New Jersey.

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too early to tell

if they made the correct decisions because it takes point guards more time to adjust to the NBA look at all the elite ones the top 5 non of them produced big numbers in their first 1-3 seasons… so too early to tell but yes beasley was a beast and will have a fine nba career but too cocky

Oden...Aldridge...Roy.....THE REAL BIG THREE

by CroRupt on Jul 7, 2008 10:02 PM PDT 0 recs

he was being ironicle

figure it out

by PippenAintEasy on Jul 7, 2008 10:07 PM PDT up 0 recs

You here that sound?

It’s the wind blowing over your head. ^^

A Time For Heroes,
It's not right for young lungs to be coughing up blood
And it's all
It's all in my hands
And its all up the walls
Well the stale chips were up and the hopes stakes were down
Until Kp came into Town!
'Sing it Petey!

by Dheepan on Jul 7, 2008 10:07 PM PDT up 0 recs

Proof that summer league results mean squat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Belinelli

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jul 7, 2008 10:17 PM PDT up 0 recs

This guy would have been a beast, but the problem was the Golden State announcer

Kept getting his name wrong, which ended up ticking the poor guy off

“Now starting, from some European country….Marrrcooooo YelloBellyNelllyballer”

How do I set my laser printer to stun?

by prezofdeath on Jul 7, 2008 11:55 PM PDT up 0 recs

I believe his statement was tongue in cheek.

jksnake99 is one of the biggest Rose advocates in here. You might remember he was, and probably still is willing to trade LA for Rose.

I'm a little confused by your tactics

by oderiferous emanations 74 on Jul 7, 2008 11:26 PM PDT up 0 recs

Piling sarcasm upon sarcasm

usually leads to a tumble of bricks.

That’s my best impression of amlmart’s Yogi Berra-esque wisdoms. (in a good way)

Kevin Pritchard is a 4.0 Draft Day Student

by rmcdougall on Jul 7, 2008 11:55 PM PDT up 0 recs

little bit tougher call now...

... since I like Bayless, but irrelevant since Chicago doesn’t even consider making that deal.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jul 8, 2008 12:10 AM PDT up 0 recs

It's time to judge right now.

I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich

by hobobob on Jul 8, 2008 11:11 AM PDT up 0 recs

Orlando Announcers

I listened/watched (albeit part time at work) the 3 games on the Net (orlandomagic.com). The announcers, Dante and Galante (something like that) were just freaking hilarious. Worth a listen/watch if you get a chance, they are on stage/Net all week. I’ve never heard of them before, but funny as heck.

John in Salem

There is probably no more terrible instance of enlightenment than the one in which you discover your father is a man — with human flesh.
Paul Muad'Dib - Dune (Frank Herbert)

My Translation: My Dad is a dude just like me, and my sons are dudes like me also. I love that.

by johnv59 on Jul 7, 2008 10:19 PM PDT 0 recs

Hey that was my guy Mario

with 4 steals guarding Rose (and scoring more points with more assists)! It is the bottom half of the 1st round teams that blew it by not drafting Mario earlier. That money shot by Mario? It was against Rose to turn the game to Kansas.

And they will meet again and again and again.

Beasley – he just had good assists to score with.

Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."

by lee3022 on Jul 7, 2008 10:26 PM PDT 0 recs

Also, Oden is a bust....10 fouls in summer league

What a BUM.

BINGO, BANGO, BONGO

by blzrfan on Jul 7, 2008 10:56 PM PDT 0 recs

Thats what I have been saying

President of the Petteri Koponen fan club.

by Sabonis4Ever on Jul 7, 2008 11:29 PM PDT up 0 recs

What would it take for Oden's rookie year to be considered a bust?

Probably a good topic for a fan post. I would be happy with 2 blocks, 9 boards and 10 points.

Somone on a chat on ESPN said that he couldn’t wait to prove that Oden was going to be a bust when averages just 2 blocks, 8 boards and 8 points and 5 fouls this coming year.

Oden is coming off of a major injury and it will still be his rookie year. I expect more from him but if he averaged those numbers I would not consider him a bust.

What did Dwight Howard put up his rookie year without the injury? 12 points, 10 boards and 1.7 blocks,

His sophmore season he played 4 more minutes per game and his turnovers went up, his blocks went down to 1.4 but his boards went up to 12.5. and his scoring went up to 15.

What do you think would be a reasonable expecation for this year and next.?

I'm a little confused by your tactics

by oderiferous emanations 74 on Jul 7, 2008 11:37 PM PDT up 0 recs

A near double double would be awesome.

Hakeem had 20 and 12 a game his rookie year. Something like that would also be nice.

If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley

by Winchester on Jul 7, 2008 11:45 PM PDT up 0 recs

With all of the hype that Oden has had over the years

anything too far off of Dwight Howard’s numbers will probably be viewed as a disappointment. People seemed pleased with Al Horford’s near double double last year, but he was touted as a potential multi-All-star type of player. Oden on the other hand as always been hyped as a once in a generation talent, the next Bill Russell, etc., thus he should be expected to have better numbers than Hordford.

That entire paragraph is void though if Oden has some monumental impact on the defense that doesn’t show up in the traditional stats and is readily attributed to his presence.

by tingeyga on Jul 8, 2008 12:02 AM PDT up 0 recs

At minimum, Oden needs Dwight's numbers

If Oden averages less than double digits rebounding or points, I would not hesitate to call his rookie year a BUST.

BINGO, BANGO, BONGO

by blzrfan on Jul 8, 2008 12:26 AM PDT up 0 recs

35, 18, 10(blocks), 10 assists, 0 fouls

would not be a bust. Anything more would just be gravy. But, I don’t want him to get carried about and look like he’s bragging.

I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich

by hobobob on Jul 8, 2008 11:18 AM PDT up 0 recs

With his quickness

Greg can easily average 10 steals/game. Plus, aren’t you being a little unrealistic about the rebounding? You gotta figure he won’t get many offensive rebounds off of his missed shots because he’ll be shooting close to 100% from the field. But, he should vacuum up everything on the defensive boards, so I’d say he was a bust if he averaged less than 20 rebounds/game.

"Shoot, I don't even have anything to put in my own sig"

These are the modest words of pualo, posted on June 20, 2008.
Yes, pualo, an extraordinarily discerning BEdger with a knack for subtle expression.

by CatMan2 on Jul 8, 2008 12:25 PM PDT up 1 recs

Rec

"Man I want to rec it again." - pualo talking about jscot's long comment

by tominhawaii on Jul 8, 2008 3:55 PM PDT up 0 recs

Tom, you're a bad influence on these people...

"You don't live by the jumpshot, you die by the jumpshot." ---Charles Barkley, 2/7/08

by timbo on Jul 8, 2008 4:57 PM PDT up 0 recs

I don't know how to take this

On the one hand, I freely admit that tih is a major influence in my life, for better or worse I suppose. But the “these people” part worries me. If you mean ‘cat men’ that would be okay…

"Shoot, I don't even have anything to put in my own sig"

These are the modest words of pualo, posted on June 20, 2008.
Yes, pualo, an extraordinarily discerning BEdger with a knack for subtle expression.

by CatMan2 on Jul 8, 2008 5:37 PM PDT up 0 recs

My cat's name is Kenny

We used to have two other cats named Theo and Rudy but they’re dead now.

"Man I want to rec it again." - pualo talking about jscot's long comment

by tominhawaii on Jul 9, 2008 4:06 AM PDT up 0 recs

Yikes!

If your cat is the sensitive and/or suggestible type, I hope he doesn’t watch South Park. My avatar, which was roundly bashed when I first employed it, commemorates my two kitties who lived to be 19 and 21. Strangely, I can’t find any other photos of them. I’m going to go drink coffee and be sad right now…

"Shoot, I don't even have anything to put in my own sig"

These are the modest words of pualo, posted on June 20, 2008.
Yes, pualo, an extraordinarily discerning BEdger with a knack for subtle expression.

by CatMan2 on Jul 9, 2008 8:24 AM PDT up 0 recs

Rudy ran away and Theo only had 3 legs

Someone threw him over a fence and two German Shepherds ate him.

They were all fans of the Cosby show.

"Man I want to rec it again." - pualo talking about jscot's long comment

by tominhawaii on Jul 9, 2008 9:17 AM PDT up 0 recs

I Wonder..

if we could still swing that GSOM trade..

"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan

by 12sharks on Jul 9, 2008 3:59 AM PDT up 0 recs

couldn't we have had Mario instead of Batum?

Not to question the great Kevin Pritchard, but do we really need another young athletic SF with tons of potential? Wouldn’t a defensively minded combo guard who can drain threes be a better bet?

Please don’t get all crazy on me. Batum just seems like a less proven version of Gerald Green.

Please don’t tell spencerbutte I said that.

If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley

by Winchester on Jul 7, 2008 11:43 PM PDT 0 recs

Would Mario Chalmers realistically play?

He’s still be buried in the back court as a defensive specialist and long-ball artist. Those are the talents we like in our guards, but because his handles aren’t stellar, I don’t think he’d get major minutes.

Kevin Pritchard is a 4.0 Draft Day Student

by rmcdougall on Jul 7, 2008 11:58 PM PDT up 0 recs

Less proven than Gerald Green?

You really think that Batum is less proven than Gerald Green? I think that Batum’s playing professionally against men (granted they are French) is a tougher proving ground than Houston area high school hoops, doubly so when you consider that Gerald had a huge athletic advantage over everyone else.

by tingeyga on Jul 8, 2008 12:06 AM PDT up 0 recs

Gerald Green played in the NBA for three years.

He finished the 2006-07 season averaging 10.4 points, 2.6 rebounds and 1.0 assists in 22 minutes per game. To put that in perspective, Martell Webster averaged 7.0 points, 2.9 rebounds, and .6 assists in 21.5 minutes per game that same year. Gerald Green also had a slightly better 3pp than Webster.

We probably could have had Gerald Green for a million bucks and a one year deal.

If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley

by Winchester on Jul 8, 2008 12:25 AM PDT up 0 recs

Oh, you meant the Gerald Green of today

I thought you meant the Gerald Green of 3 years ago. Perhaps because I don’t think that he has gotten much better than he was when he came in the league. Maybe because he was waived during last season.

You are correct that he could have been had cheaply, and he may even be a short-term upgrade. Whether he truly is a long term upgrade over Batum, I remain unconvinced.

by tingeyga on Jul 8, 2008 2:28 AM PDT up 0 recs

Maybe.

If Batum ends up being a better defender (shouldn’t be hard) then I think he is a way better prospect than Green. It just seems weird to draft at a guy that we don’t really need based on potential alone. Even if Batum pans out that still leaves us with three good small forwards who won’t get enough playing time. Mario Chalmers ceiling might not be as high, but at the very least he would have been the best defensive point guard on our team. It also helps that he shot 47% from three last year. Compare that to Batum who shot 29%, Bayless 40%, Augustin 38%, Westbrook 34%, Rose 33%, and Mayo 41%.

Defensive minded PGs who can shoot the three are rare indeed. Super athletic small forwards who like to take jump shots grow on trees.

“Potential”

I’m starting to hate that word.

If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley

by Winchester on Jul 8, 2008 5:43 AM PDT up 0 recs

I'm high on Chalmers too.

I think draftexpress.com misses when they say his potential is Jarrett Jack. His skill set looks a lot more like Blake with better defense and worse PG skills. He’s a combo guard with great shooting and low turnovers. However, the fact that we already drafted Bayless (essentially) makes it a harder pick to make. He’d be the third string PG (or fourth if Sergio bounces back) and the second string PG of the future (again unless Sergio stays) unless you think Chalmers is better than Bayless.

Batum’s greatest “potential” is on the defensive end. I was high on him as well. It should be noted that Batum shot 34% on 3’s in the French league. While the competition is lower than in Euroleague, it’s one of the better European leagues and a much larger sample size. He’s also more of a slasher I think than a shooter.

Yeah, it was a potential pick. Given the position we’re in, it’s not that easy to stomach yet another project. However, I do have high hopes for Batum since I think he’s a very good project. Given the uncertainty of the SF position, adding another player isn’t bad. Adding a veteren would have been preferable, though that’s clearly a lot harder to do.

by poster on Jul 8, 2008 6:01 AM PDT up 0 recs

The Problem with Green

Is that, thus far, his inability to listen to coaching, to learn the teams plays on offense or defense, or to ever work on his game, has had a kid with a TON of potential to be nearly bounced out of the league.

How old is he, 21? 22? He’s already pretty much on his last leg, with a non-guaranteed 1 year minimum deal with so-n-so-or-whoever. I forget who he signed with.

Every team couldn’t STAND him, because he just doesn’t try to play on a team and just starts doing his own thing. He can dunk with the best of them, can shoot, but if we think Outlaw is frustrating when he doesn’t seem sure of where to be or what to do, we’d rip our hairs out watching Green.

Bottom line, there’s plenty of good reasons he has already nearly been bounced out of the league.

Batum, on the other hand, brings things most potential-laden 19 year olds don’t got—defense, BBIQ, and team play.

Most kids like him (and really, this is what surprised me the most about Batum when I started reading about him last year) just try to get their own points and show off a bit; they’re a lot more athletic than their peers, and it’s easy and fun to do so. I figured Batum would already know how to shoot whenever he wanted, but would really have a ways to go to learn defense and team offense. Fortunately for us, that is his strength right now, and he reportedly understands how the game of basketball is played. We got him for those reasons, plus his age and potential make his future offense tantalizing also.

Green doesn’t do those things, and needs a punch in the face to take things seriously now.

The averages he got for the Celtics were from their tanking season, and they just threw him out there and let him do whatever. He has no problem taking shots, and he’ll get points when he shoots enough. He just doesn’t do anything else right now, and he doesn’t even score that well because he doesn’t play intelligently. He just throws up junk.

While we could have gotten Green for less than a million bucks, I don’t think it’s worth it. He doesn’t do anything we need and would seriously lower our Team Effort and Work Ethic stats.

Mortimer

by Mortimer on Jul 8, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up 0 recs

I saw an interview between Mike Barrett and KP last night on channel 37. When they discussed Batum

KP mentioned in a slightly exasperated sort of way that Batum is very laid back.

"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar

by annthefan on Jul 8, 2008 3:34 PM PDT up 0 recs

See, that changes everything.

If Batum’s main strength is defense then I think it’s a great move. Super athletic small forwards who play great defense almost don’t exist anymore.

I like Chalmers more than Blake. I know that sounds crazy and maybe it is a little, but Chalmers might be as good of a 3 point spot up shooter as Blake is now.(WAY better than Blake was in college). Factor in that he is a better defender and I think Chalmers makes for a better role player than Blake. I know it’s a lot of point guards to carry on a team, but he is such a great prospect. He had the best 3pp of all the top PG prospects and he nearly led In league in assist:turnover ratio last year at 2.25. Does that sound anything like Jarrett Jack? Low turnovers, crazy defense, amazing ouside range. Not really.

I think the Batum thing only really makes sense if Webster or Outlaw get traded.

If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley

by Winchester on Jul 8, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up 0 recs

Chalmers might be better

But right now, we need solidness from our PG spot, because we’re so young and erratic at our other positions. We gotta have that guy who has a calming effect on the floor, who is consistently solid, even if he isn’t that talented.

Is Steve Blake a stopgap as a starter? Of course. But he’s a GOOD stopgap, better than a Eric Snow for example, and he does help us out there. If we felt Chalmers would someday be a great starting PG I’d be totally fine getting him, but as long as we’re keeping the spot warm for Bayless (or whoever), having someone consistent (even if it’s consistently mediocre) is a huge help for our young team.

If we’re talking about SF or PF or even Center, it’s a different story—but for PG, we need to know what to expect since everyone else is still learning the NBA. That’s the value of Steve Blake.

Batum wasn’t gotten for this season, we don’t need to move either of Martell or Outlaw for the French kid. He’s a few years off, even if his strength is defense right now. By then, we’ll know what we got in Outlaw and Martell, plus have a better idea what Batum will be someday. He’s just fine as a 3rd stringer who gets garbage minutes and we develop internally.

MORE than enough room for all 3 SFs.

Mortimer

by Mortimer on Jul 8, 2008 6:50 PM PDT up 0 recs

lol

poor E Snow, always used as an example. “It could be worse, we could have Eric Snow.” Don’t get me wrong, even though he’s a solid defender I’m totally with you- I just think its funny that people love to hate on E Snow—dude has one of the ugliest jumpers in the league. Clank city from anywhere outside 10 feet.

I totally agree with your take on Batum also.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jul 8, 2008 6:59 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yeah, I definitely don't dislike Eric Snow

He’s reportedly a great locker room leader and all that, and he won’t kill you. He’s just so average, and can’t shoot worth a lick. He’d be the type of stop gap dude we MIGHT have in an alternate universe, and for a stop gap, Steve Blake is pretty good.

If your stop gap can start on half the teams in the league because he is solid, then ya got a decent stop gap.

I agree, poor Eric Snow… he ain’t bad, but has been around on decent teams and played for so long as a “worst starter in the league” stat wise, he gets a bum rap. I’d love to have him as a 3rd stringer, as everyone says he’s great in the locker room and will be a coach some day. THAT’s a vet we could use… won’t eat up minutes for the youth, and brings leadership and experience to the locker room to help the youngins’ know what to expect.

In my defense, if Eric Snow is your starting PG, you’re prolly kinda unhappy.

Mortimer

by Mortimer on Jul 8, 2008 11:47 PM PDT up 0 recs

neither one would play next year

Batum was picked for several years down the road. A low risk high reward move.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jul 8, 2008 12:11 AM PDT up 0 recs

Webster's gone. Or Outlaw. It's what that pick means

based on salary concerns, I’d say it’s Webster. I hate the idea cause I love Webster, but we’ve heard how in love with cap Allen is (this should be important enough of a factor we should label his love as PA+CAP=Babies). My guess is we dump Webster if Batum looks serviceable.

I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich

by hobobob on Jul 8, 2008 11:22 AM PDT up 0 recs

Don't be too sure

That pick may just mean that they want to have someone in the pipeline in case Martell doesn’t step up his game.

Batum isn’t close to either Martell or Outlaw yet. He’s even younger than they are.

If there are no major trades right now, there still might be one before the deadline. If Batum shows he’s ready to contribute NOW, one of those two guys might possibly be included in a trade. If not, he’ll spend a lot of time in Idaho this year.

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Jul 9, 2008 3:26 AM PDT up 0 recs

Parts have been mentioned, but I thought of them too and I like lists.

Reasons:

1.) We don’t have the SF position dialed in yet. Outlaw looks to be a career bench player on our team and ignites the second unit. I suspect rudy will do this too.

2.) Defense, defense, defense. Did I mention this kid is known for his defense? Defense is a mindset and it appears this kid has it.

3.) Team play – all of the things I’ve read on this kid have him helping out the team and not concerned about his own stats. On a loaded team, that’s incredibly important.

4.) low risk and high reward (like how potential wasn’t used?). We snagged him with a low first round. He may not pan out but we don’t NEED him to pan out today. IF he comes along in two years or three then we scored. If he doesn’t then we’re not out much.

5.) San Antonio really wanted him. They’re also a good evaluator of talent and if both teams want him… that’s really enough for me to foresee a bright future for this kid.

6.) We HAVE enough guards… blake… roy… bayless… rudy… sergio… Show me the playing time. It doesn’t exist. That defensive guard would see, at MOST, five minutes of play and lack the high reward of Batum.

7.) I like ice cream.

Ford: Bill, you're claiming victory already? Have you had a "Mission Accomplished" banner printed yet?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624

by ratbastird on Jul 10, 2008 9:35 AM PDT up 0 recs

Upside/Injury Insurance

I’ll leave the Batum/Chalmers debate up to others. I would point out, however, that we’re now stocked at guard, and I can’t see how we could have fit Chalmers into the position at this time. unless you think that Chalmers could replace either Roy, Fernandez, Bayless or Blake. There simply were no minutes left for him. Right now, the project is to get time, minutes and experience for Bayless and Fernandez. How could we have fit another rookie into that scenerio?

As far as Batum, he’s been praised and panned. Last year Fernandez turned into a keeper, even though he was picked within a couple spots of Batum. I guess on this one, I’ll just have to leave it to KP’s judgement. Whether Batum or Chalmers, neither would or will get much playing time – unless there is a serious injury. And if there is, then we still have three guards plus Sergio for the two guard spots, whereas at SF, and injury would leave us w/o a backup. So maybe this was the deciding factor. Some upside, and some injury insurance.

by Eben Calder on Jul 8, 2008 6:56 AM PDT 0 recs