Seattle Poll #3. Who is the villain, anyway?
Happy fourth! As we celebrate that which makes America America--greed, capitalism, and hot dogs--here is my final poll on the subject of the ex Seattle SeahawksSonics (doh!--es), and their imminent departure for Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain, and the waving wheat can sure smell swee... (whack! whack! whack! STOP THAT).
Anyway, the final question concerning the Sonics decision to reverse the steps of Tom Joad is--who is the villian?
Before you give the obvious answer (it's Clay!), permit me to list a few candidates. Some of them are listed twice, for different reasons. However, we will start in Oklahoma (every night, my honey lamb and I... OW! OK, no more showtunes!) with the man who is now grinning like a hawk, with a rabbit in its beak, making lazy circles in the sky.
- Clay Bennett, for moving a team from a city that loved it
Why Clay is the villain: It's understandable that Clay wanted a basketball team for his hometown; we don't begrudge him that. But when he goes and rips an established franchise from a fanbase, that is simply not acceptable. Boo!
Why he is not: Clay is an Oklahoman. His civic duty is to Oklahoma, not to Seattle. Seattle has no right to make demands on Clay, and forfeited any right when Howard Schulz sold the team. Seattlites should look elsewhere for blame.
- Clay Bennett, for not being honest about the whole thing
Why he is the villain: Even if we accept that he's an Oklahoman doing good for his own community--he still committed fraud on Seattle (and possibly on the league--who knows) with his ruse of trying to find a "local solution". It's patently obvious that his proposal was calculated to be unacceptable; and he simply lied to a) get Schulz to sell the team in the first place, and b) to dupe Seattle fans into attending games and supporting him until he could break the Key Arena lease. BOO!
Why he is not: Nobody believed him, anyway--should anyone be surprised? Least of all, Howard Schulz, who should have known better. Which brings us to:
- Howard Schulz, for selling the team to Bennett over the objections of minority owners who wanted to find a local owner
Why Schulz is the villain: Schulz *had* to know that by selling the team to an out-of-town investor, from a city that recently had hosted the Hornets post-Katrina and was "on the market" for an NBA franchise--that there was a good chance the team might actually leave. All Mr. Starbucks cared about during this whole fiasco was $$$--he made a boatload by selling the team for far more than he bought it for. He'd sell his mother for money. Oh, and his coffee sucks, too. BOO!
Why he is not: Schultz (does his name have a T or not? I'm too lazy to look it up) was stuck with a franchise with a (cue Steve Patterson and repeat after me:) Broken Financial Model. He was losing money on operations, so selling was the only way to recoup. And there wasn't exactly a line of local billionaires looking to by the team--Ballmer, Gates, Bezos, and the rest weren't interested. And, as was established above, Bennett lied through his teeth through the whole process.
- NBA Commissioner David Stern, for screwing over The Fans in general
Why the commish is the villain: David Stern doesn't care for fans; just their money. Even though he may be slowly killing the golden goose; he's only interested in getting more money from your pockets into the team owners. His shortsightedness may damage the league; as the NBA probably lost thousands of fans yesterday. Oh, on top of that the league is rigged. Like Baron Davis playing in New Orleans--BOO!!!
Why he isn't: He's just doing his job. He serves at the pleasure of the owners, and his job is to maximize the revenue of the NBA. He produces and markets a product, which people consume. Simple as that. If you don't pay for that product, you don't get it.
- NBA Commissioner David Stern, for screwing over Seattle specifically.
Why Stern is the villain: Even if we accept the promise that Stern's loyalty is to the owners, Seattle was still treated quite unfairly. There was no pretense of fairness or equity in the whole process. Boo hoo.
Why Stern is not the villain: See above. The fans aren't who he works for. If his team owner in Seattle says "get me out of here", it's his job to do precisely that.
- Former Sonics owner Barry Ackerly
Why Billboard Barry is the villain: Ackerly, who made his fortune erecting those monstrousities you see alongside the freeway, was the Sonics owner prior to Schulz, and was the guy responsible for renovating the Seattle Center Coliseum, and negotiating what would later become the "worst lease in the NBA". The redesign was on-the-cheap on many levels--skyboxes were not included, even though it was apparent that this would be an important source of team revenue, and was (according to reports I've read) intentionally designed to be unsuitable for the NHL. (The WHL Thunderbirds do play there, but the NHL has stricter ice standards the Key cannot meet). His shortsightedness planted the seed for the poison fruit which was forced down Seattle's throat this week. A big ugly billboard which reads, "Boo!"
Why he is not: He hasn't owned the team in years; it's unfair to blame him for something that happened long after he sold. Both Schulz and Bennett knew what they were buying--it isn't as though Ackerly hoodwinked 'em into thinking the Key was a first-rate facility.
- Former Sonics officers Wally Walker and Rick Sund
Why these guys are the villains: They--collectively--ran the team into the ground, plain and simple. Walker was hired, of course, to replace Trader Bob Whitsitt after Trader Bob came to PDX. While Bob is credited with doing great damage to the Portland franchise, he is widely acknowledged to have left the Sonics in better shape than he found them; indeed, the Sonics team he built would go to the NBA FInals in 1996 (losing to Da Bulls). All that was squandered by Walker, and to a lesser extent Sund. Legions of bad trades, wasted draft picks on project centers, and the deplorable way Nate McMillan was treated, left a sour taste in the mouth of fans. Oh, and boo.
Why they are not. They're too far down on the totem pole to matter for this. They may, as the lawyers say, have contributory negligence, but blame focuses on the folks who were signing their paychecks.
- Ownership of the Mariners and Seahawks
Why these guys are the villains: Nintendo of America, Ken Behring, and our favorite owner--Paul Allen--all of 'em strongarmed Seattle (and Washington) taxpayers into building palaces for the Ms and the Hawks, with two results: 1) When Schultz came looking for his handout, the well was dry; and 2) David Stern was apparently rather miffed that MLB and the NFL got the red-carpet treatment from Seattle, and his league did not. For leaving the cupboard bare for Seattle basketball, the 12th man gives a hearty Boo!
Why they are not: Again, they are too far removed from the situation to be assigned any significant blame. And--they were just Doing Their Job.
- Politicians and special interests
Why these guys are the villains: Perhaps in reaction to the Safeco and Qwest deals; a coalition of anti-tax advocates on the right, and anti-corporate-welfare types on the left, have managed to stymie any attempt to get funding for the Sonics--and elected officials, either actively representing (or terrified of) said interests have repeatedly spurned the team. Boo.
Why not: What's wrong with that, exactly? What is wrong with politicians and activists standing up to what even the most ardent sports fan will acknowledge, is extortion, plain and simple. Fans fund sports at the gate. Fans fund sports when they by merchandise. Fans fund sports when they buy League Pass, and even when they watch games on free TV and view commercials. Why should they fund 'em even more through taxes and fees--which are charged to people who don't care about sports? Maybe Seattle has had enough.
- The fans
Why the fans are the villains: They stopped caring about the team, so that the few hardcore fans that were left weren't sufficient critical mass to influence the actions of policymakers. Teams that sell out their building every night generally don't move, especially to smaller markets--the last time a well-beloved team moved was when Art Modell took the old Browns to Baltimore. The other franchise moves since 1990 (Expos->DC, Rams ->St. Louis, Cardinals -> Phoenix, Grizz -> Memphis, Oilers -> Nashville, Hornets -> New Orleans, the NHL leaving Canada in droves) have been either moves to much larger markets, or moves away from fanbases that largely don't care. Seattle, despite the noisy presence of a hardcore Sonics fanbase, largely doesn't care about the NBA. Give yourselves a round of Boo!
Why the fans are not: Comparing the Sonics fans, who have shown some intelligence in not paying good money for a perpetually lousy product, to baseball fans in Montreal (all three of them), is silly. Seattle has an excellent basketball tradition, and will continue to do so. This, like the Browns move, or the Dodgers and Giants leaving New York, is simply about money. The fans are the victims here, quit blaming the victim.
- Nobody, and everybody--it's a perfect storm
Argument in favor: This, like many catastrophes, was a systemic failure of multiple entities to do their jobs and take care of what they needed to take care of. Remove any of the above--a succession of cheap owners, lousy management, spineless politicians, heavy-handed league management, and sometimes apathetic fans--and Bennett is buying the Grizzlies.
Argument against: Sorry, but that lets some folks who are clearly bad actors off the hook.
Anyway, happy fourth, everybody!
7 recs |
46
comments
Comments
it all boils down to Howard Schultz
and quite frankly I’m surprised that he’s not getting vilified more in this. It’s quite simple really. He sold a STRUGGLING franchise with a DWINDLING fanbase to an out of towner (and get this, this is the real kicker) FROM OKLAHOMA!!! Didn’t he pay attention to the Hornets after Katrina, and all the hype OKC was getting for how supportive they were being going to the games, and how great everyone thought it would be to finally get an NBA team there. “They have an arena, they’re ready!!!” Oh my god it couldn’t have been more obvious. It’s like if I was really hungry and Tominhawaii sold me a box of chocolate covered macadamias, but told me “you can’t eat these, these are special, you can only come visit them”. Then I said, “ok Tom, sounds good. I’ll come by later tomorrow to visit my candy”. But then I got beyond famished and couldn’t find food anywhere else. So I go to Toms house and eat “MY” chocolate covered macadamias which I do in fact own. Then Tom gets mad at me. He can’t get mad at me because I own the chocolate covered macadamias fair and square, PLUS I’m starving to death and literally can’t find food anywhere else. IT’S TOM’S DAMN FAULT FOR SELLING ME THE CANDY IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! !!! !!! I honestly blame people in this order 1.) Howard Schultz 2.) The fans – I’m sorry, I don’t care what anyone says, if they tried to pull that crap down here we would not let it happen, period. 3.) The local legislation – which approved no less than a half a billion dollars of tax payer money to help build/renovate arenas for the M’s and Chickenhawks, and lastly I blame Clay because let’s be honest, if stupid Schultz was so dumb that he honestly didn’t think that CB would move the team to his HOME TOWN that has already proved it would be excited to have and support a struggling NBA team (the hornets were not good then), then that’s Schultz’s fault not CB’s. I do think CB is a total DB though, don’t get me wrong.
myspace.com/marktwainindians
by mark twain on Jul 4, 2008 10:02 AM PDT 0 recs
I hear you about Schultz...
however, I disagree with the premise. It assumes that Howard Schultz should’ve known Bennett was lying…which wouldn’t have been much of a reach. That being said, do we blame the liar or the person being lied to for believing the lie? My inclination is to put the blame on the liar.
by JasonT on
Jul 4, 2008 12:04 PM PDT
up
0 recs
The liar!!!
"Some of Dave’s greatest gifts are unanswered posts."
by 92wastheyear on
Jul 4, 2008 1:09 PM PDT
up
0 recs
I'd agree if everyone didn't already know
I wasn’t following the Seattle situation closely at all, because I didn’t imagine they’d leave, of all teams.
However, everyone knew Clay Bennett was helping with the NOOKC Hornets, and that he was trying to get an NBA team in his home town. Any team he bought, he would try to move them to Okie City. It was completely known to all who followed the NBA, even guys like me who weren’t close to the Seattle team or their situation, and it was definitely known to Schultz.
If the guy lied to Schultz, fine. He still shoulda’ been smart enough to know the guy was lying, as EVERYONE knew what Clay Bennett was gonna do.
Schultz knew the guy was gonna move the team, unless he is an imbecile. If he couldn’t control being an imbecile, than I wouldn’t be as mad at him. But he’s a really rich man with really rich advisors and people to tell him what this guy was gonna do with the team. They also told him he would make more money by selling the team to this guy, even if he was just going to move them. Like I said, everyone knew this, and especially those who were fans of the Sonics (or actually owned the Sonics).
Maybe it happened faster than Schultz expected, or he just didn’t care. Either way, he sold the team to a guy he KNEW was going to try to move the team, when there were reportedly local buyers who just didn’t have as much money (and that aspect is the only aspect I’m not confident about).
I hate Clay Bennett, but you can say his intentions were clear the entire way through, even if publically he lied his butt off. Everyone still knew what he was trying to do, so we can’t act surprised that he did what we all knew he was gonna do. Schultz isn’t allowed to act surprised either.
Since he knew what would happen, and sold the team anyways just for extra money, Schultz gets the brunt of my blame.
Stern is defending the owners, who he works for, and Bennett is doing what he always intended to do. Doesn’t make me like them, but their actions are almost… defensible.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on
Jul 4, 2008 7:58 PM PDT
up
0 recs
The bottom line for me was...
Who ultimately made the decision to move the team?
Whether or not Schultz predicted this, Clay Bennett was saying that it was his intention to keep the Sonics in Seattle, in order to purchase the team. It wasn’t Schultz who lied. It was Bennett. It wasn’t Schultz who decided to move the team out of Seattle. It was Bennett.
Maybe Schultz willingly allowed himself to be duped b/c he really wanted to sell the team…and certainly in hindsight it was a bad decision to put his trust in Clay Bennett. But it’s not like jumping in a cage with a tiger. Clay Bennett is a human being and has the power of free will. Therefore, it is Clay Bennett’s responsibility to act with morals and integrity, even in the face of an easy victim. Just b/c you can kick an old man off the curb doesn’t mean you should. And even if you do, it’s not the old man’s fault….it’s yours.
by JasonT on
Jul 5, 2008 8:25 AM PDT
up
0 recs
Schultz has nothing sticking on him
Why should anyone have to accept blame for sloughing an asset that was purchased at twice its underlying value especially given how much money it was losing? I’m not saying that we need to have a parade for him (and yes, his coffee sucks), but let’s keep the anger focused on the right culprits: ownership and city/state leadership.
by Minny C on
Jul 6, 2008 5:47 PM PDT
up
0 recs
Bravo Scotty!
That was an exhaustive – and I’m sure time consuming – look at the Sonic situation from all angles. Thank you for putting forth such excellent work.
Definitely deserving of a REC.
by TwoDeep on Jul 4, 2008 10:35 AM PDT 1 recs
I voted David Stern because he could have stopped it ultimately
However I am getting tired of the argument the CB isn’t really responsible. Just because the HS should have seen it coming (or just didn’t give a crap) doesn’t let CB off the hook in my book. Just because I left my front door unlocked doesn’t absolve the burgler who came in and stole my stuff. The the thief is still a thief and should be tried and convicted. I was dumb and should have seen it coming but all that said the thief is still a thief.
BTW out of town owners are not unheard of. They don’t always yank the team and leave…PA is one example.
Extra BTW…..All of them are responsible to some degree or other
"Some of Dave’s greatest gifts are unanswered posts."
by 92wastheyear on Jul 4, 2008 10:42 AM PDT 0 recs
David Stern has barely any say in reality
it’s up to the owners, they’re the ones that vote. If they’d all voted no, the team couldn’t have moved. He can try to influence people, but he can’t stop it any more than Bush can snap his fingers and make $1.50 per gallon gas appear again.
The fact of the matter is that if Howard Schultz wanted to, he could have sold the team to a local ownership group for less money and guaranteed the team stayed in Seattle. Effectively saying, “sorry I screwed up your franchise Seattle, but the least I can do is be a man about it, take a little financial hit, and move on. I can at least feel good about the fact that the team will stay at home, where it belongs”... That, is my take!
myspace.com/marktwainindians
by mark twain on
Jul 4, 2008 11:24 AM PDT
up
1 recs
I disagree
David Stern told Oklahoma City that he would get them their own team if they housed the Hornets and it would not be an expansion team. That was before liars Bennett and company purchased the Sonics. David Stern has a plan and it was his plan, I believe, that succeeded. Why?
1. He wanted to help Bennett.
2. He wanted to screw Washington when they would not finance Shultz.
3. He wanted to again prove that he is the King – undisputed in all of sports.
4. He wanted to again remind cities that there is need to kiss his posterior whenever he chooses to replace a new building with a newer building.
5. Before referee scandal #2 hit and it became obvious that the whole league is rigged.
Howard Shultz could not oppose the power of Stern. He sold but as I note above Stern wanted a team for OKC as he had promised. Had he refused, Stern has ways to bleed Seattle dry (yes, they did a pretty good job on their own).
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on
Jul 5, 2008 12:17 AM PDT
up
1 recs
Yep
I place Stern at the top of the pile of bad guys in this situation. As an addition to point #1 in your post, I wanted to point out that Stern spoke at Bennett’s induction into the Oklahoma Hall of Fame. These guys are buds. And as an addition to point #4, it should be pointed out that he was against renovating Key Arena up until last Wednesday after the settlement when he was suddenly open to it. David Stern is more disingenuous than Clay Bennett because he pretends to be a fair arbiter when he isn’t even close to that.
by bocious on
Jul 6, 2008 10:45 PM PDT
up
0 recs
Clay Bennet
Everyone else was incompetent or AWOL. Bennet was the only one in the mix who was dishonest.
by raoulduke on Jul 4, 2008 11:13 AM PDT 0 recs
Two NBAs
Took a break from reading B-Edge archives after finishing Dave’s fine “Two NBAs” piece (8-23-2006) - Then read yesterday TrueHoops commentary on Seattle - Then checked new post to find Scotty’s Seattle story. Here’s the common thread: (quoting Dave)
”... owned by fantastically wealthy (with) ... sense of entitlement that annoyed the crap out of us … fans are simply a ‘revenue stream’ ... they’re marks.”
Reminds me of (true story) from the ‘40s when my young cousin guest was told her family was next going to Seattle. Having been traumatized by our one-holer, she worriedly asked, “Does Attel have a toilet at her house?”
by OBJuan72 on Jul 4, 2008 11:36 AM PDT 0 recs
I can relate.
On our farm in Minnesota, I too knew only an outhouse before I was about 9 or 10. But ours was a two-holer.
by TwoDeep on
Jul 5, 2008 9:54 AM PDT
up
0 recs
I voted Clay Bennett
b/c ultimately it was his decision to move the team and no one else. He tried to play the victim, by claiming that he was left with no choice, but the truth of the matter is that he did have a choice to stay or leave, and he chose to leave. So the move is on him.
That being said, all of the above played a part. Especially David Stern who is supposed to protect the interest of the fans and the integrity of the league. Mr. Stern showed his true colors with the Sonics situation – and really who he feels beholden to…and guess what? It’s not the fans.
I don’t blame the politicians so much…b/c Bennett gave them such a terrible proposition that it would’ve been inrresponsible for them to shell out $500 million of tax payer money to build a new arena…only the most expensive arena ever….without Bennett officially offering any of his own money to help out with the cost.
The fans are the ones who lost and I certainly don’t blame them.
Howard Schultz is a tough one. No doubt he should’ve sold the team to local ownership. He was however, smart enough to include the “good faith effort” clause into the contract. And he’s willing to put up his own money to try to get the team back. So, while it was a dumb move on his part, he wasn’t the one making the decision to move the Sonics out of Seattle. That decision lies soley on the shoulders of Clay Bennett.
by JasonT on Jul 4, 2008 11:40 AM PDT 0 recs
The problem with the good faith clause
Is that it is EXTREMELY vague legally, and won’t likely stop anything. It doesn’t have any standard guidelines of what a ‘good faith’ effort is, nor how much time a good faith effort should take, or anything that makes it KNOWN what the hell a good faith effort would account for. It’s extremely subjective.
So, the team is moved, Bennett will point to the legislature not making him a new stadium, and nothing changes :-( It’s all so ridiculous.
And in regards to 92wastheyear’s “burglar” example, it would be more true if you gave the burgler the KEYS to your house and welcomed him in, and then you were surprised he took something. If you let a thief in, he’ll steal from you! That’s what a thief does.
So Schultz let in the thief, handed him the keys to the house, and said ‘all yours’. The thief does what he always intended on doing, and that’s move the team.
Most out of town owners aren’t quite so ‘out of town’, since Okie City and Seattle aren’t nearly as close as Seattle and Portland (for example) or one of the East coast towns. Plus, with Seattle’s lease coming up and the stadium problems, it was a ripe situation to be taken advantage of for a move. I only realize that stuff in hindsight of course, but Schultz should have known then.
Ultimately I agree that all are guilty.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on
Jul 4, 2008 8:07 PM PDT
up
0 recs
By the way, I have a suggestion for your poll
Narrow it down to 6 choices -
1. Clay Bennett
2. David Stern
3. Politicians
4. Fans
5. Howard Schultz
6. No one.
Otherwise your poll is going to get a little watered down.
by JasonT on Jul 4, 2008 11:51 AM PDT 0 recs
Nice post
I’d say it was mayor Nickels. No way would the judge side with the rich Okie, and the Sonics would have to stay there for two more years; by which time a solution would be in place. He sold the team for $45mil. I don’t want us to play this stolen franchise 3 times a year. Thinking that the people who are going to be rooting for this team are the same ones who had the governor of their state write a letter to the NCAA asking that the Ducks-Sooners infamous onside kick game be wiped from their record makes me disgusted. I hope that after the honeymoon first year they run into trouble and wind up having to move to Kansas City or something. Good luck to Seattle, enjoy watching the Grizzlies next year.
by ChadFord on Jul 4, 2008 12:06 PM PDT 0 recs
I want to vote against both Stern and Bennett
But well, everybody in this case gave a bad impression and ultimately Bennett made the call and thus gets most of the blame for the move. Nobody should ever open a door for him again, or he might screw you over as well.
Coach, I promise I wasn't running hard ...
by Norsktroll on Jul 4, 2008 1:49 PM PDT 0 recs
I was going to vote for "no one in particular"
until I read the qualifying “remove ANY of the above”. I’m not sure that removing just one would have altered events – some obviously would have, but others? Not so sure. There would have been a storm anyway,
And how about the NBA owners who voted to move the team in spite of all that had gone on. I was really pleased when I read PA had voted NO.
"We will do nice things!" - Rudy, 07/01/08
by jorga on Jul 4, 2008 6:00 PM PDT 0 recs
There is only one King of the NBA
and it is not LeBron. The King ordered and it was done (see my notes above). Everything that happens in the NBA is an action or reaction to the King. This man’s ego makes MJ look like a saint!
So Seattle is on you King. Everyone else are merely pawns in your game.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 5, 2008 12:22 AM PDT 0 recs
It has to be "Cash-Us" Cl*y Bennett.
AKA the sole entry in my list titled, “People Worth Spitting On”.
"I think it’s going to be very beautiful game next year."
-Batuuuuuuuum!
by rockingharder on Jul 5, 2008 12:51 AM PDT 0 recs
Clay Bennett is a confessed right wing conservative.......
and he flat out lied to the city of Seattle and the state of Washington. Why is anyone “up in arms” or surprised? That’s what these people do to get their way.
by fat27 on Jul 5, 2008 1:01 AM PDT 0 recs
While I ain't no right wing conservative
(and dislike much of the conservative agenda intensely), I’ve known enough honest conservatives (and dishonest liberals), and vice versa, to know that no side of the political spectrum has a monopoly on basic virtues or vices. And one of the sad parts of this whole saga is how it has become a red state/blue state thing—with Oklahoma fans ecstatic about have taken a team from a city of “godless, gay-loving liberals” or whatever, and Seattle fans outraged that their team has been spirited away with a bunch of bible-thumping rednecks. Or so it goes.
Really, now. Clay Bennett isn’t a “confessed” right-wing or Christian anything, any more than Portland mayor Sam Adams is a “confessed” liberal or homosexual. Neither consider their religious, political, and sexual orientations anything to be ashamed of; nor are any of ‘em illegal in the slightest.
Would fans in Seattle feel any better had the Sonics instead moved to San Francisco? Or to New York City? Would Oklahoma fans feel more sorry about taking another city’s team if it had been, say, the Utah Jazz or the Memphis Grizzlies—two teams from established “red states”? Other than as fuel for the fires of anger, what the heck does politics or religion have to do with any of this?
by EngineerScotty on
Jul 5, 2008 4:40 PM PDT
up
2 recs
Should say
Portland mayor-elect.
Tom “my way or the highway” Potter is still (regrettably) Portland’s mayor until next January. And my objection with Mayor Potter (who was a decent police chief, but has been a waste of four years) is not with his politics, but with his political incompetence.
by EngineerScotty on
Jul 5, 2008 4:43 PM PDT
up
0 recs
+1
THANK you.
"I think it’s going to be very beautiful game next year."
-Batuuuuuuuum!
by rockingharder on
Jul 5, 2008 8:43 PM PDT
up
0 recs
+2
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on
Jul 6, 2008 9:56 AM PDT
up
0 recs
Professional sports in America
are a rich men’s toys. If Seattle and the State of Wash would not provide a viable site for the rich man to make money, then their citizens can only complain to the politicians.
The rich men have no obligation (unfortunately) to us the fans to lose money every year on their hobby. Most rich men do not want to continue to lose large sums of money every year. They do know better ways to put their money to use.
We are very fortunate to have Paul Allen here willing to pursue the thrill of victory with us. I for one hope he never gives up on his dreams.
by OrygunRod on Jul 5, 2008 1:16 AM PDT 0 recs
Mostly true but there is still business
here and business makes money. Losing money year-to-year while enriching the value of the franchise is analogues to buying a piece of real estate that rents at a loss while appreciating. Every owner of the Sonics made money when he sold. Shultz knew he had made money (and even Paul Allen is near break-even) and either needed to cash or to rebuild for the next cycle. To continue the real estate example it is like buying a beautiful but run-down house in a good neighborhood and then moving it to a worse neighborhood, instead of fixing it up, leaving an empty eye-sore lot. Legal – sure. Good business? Depends on whether moving it into the new neighborhood brings added value to that neighborhood and can rise to its former level plus the moving costs. Bennett and company are into this for $350M purchase, $75M (conditional) to buy off the politicians, maybe $200M in operating losses and another $50M to effect the move and acquire temporary practice facilities while OKC builds and new practice facility. That makes the investment of the owners the highest on record for an NBA team I believe and forces the return on investment demands to nearly double what it was in Seattle.
The real added value for the owners is the prestige they gain in OKC by having pilfered a storied franchise into their town. Kind of like a native american war party returning with the spoils of battle.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on
Jul 5, 2008 1:51 PM PDT
up
0 recs
analogous
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on
Jul 5, 2008 1:54 PM PDT
up
0 recs
Almost Agree
with Jason T. I blame Bennett,Stern,Politicians and Schults and yes Scotty his name does have a T just before the last S. But the fans are the real loseser. Every owner for any pro sports team should remember the best way to have great fan support is to put a winning product on the court.And thats what Clay bennett did not do.Like Shawn Kemp said last week when he was playing to get a new building you had to win games. Also the Sonics averaged 13,000 plus in 07/08 and only won twenty games The Hornet did not average 13,000 a game until they made the playoffs and there are a couple other teams that did not average 13,000. I was one of those fans that went to some games.So I really Don’t Think you can really blame the fans .That to me is a cop out just like what Bennett did when he lied about the key not being good enough remolded
by billyjoejack on Jul 6, 2008 12:46 AM PDT 0 recs
p.s.
I mean Remodeled key arena. In reference to above post, it was late last night . Also the fans are the biggest loser,Now unless The Blazers put thier games on t v-via(Comcast) they will only see Natl. or tnt games later in the season? Nba doesn’t put games on t v until later in the season usually they wait until after the football season.
by billyjoejack on Jul 6, 2008 7:54 AM PDT 0 recs
What about the other owners?
It would be nice if you had an option for the other NBA owners that voted to allow the move (minus Cuban and Allen). The owners knew they would lose money moving an established team from a large market to a nearly non-existent one, but they wanted to provide precedence when the grass gets greener somewhere else so they can uproot their franchises.
There are no loyalty clauses in NBA ownership, but it would’ve been nice if the NBA had stepped in and asked Schultz (the “t” is there) to sell to locals.
The other villains are tax-payers who cave in and agree to finance arenas on the public’s dollar. Why? There are numerous studies from the U of O’s Sports something program that show that sports franchises provide little, if any, economic boost. Their benefit is mainly psychological. If other cities were less willing to dig deep to entice a team to move, less would.
by torsoheap on Jul 6, 2008 10:36 AM PDT 0 recs
true but
Half my family lives in Seattle and they tell my[corect me if im wrong]that the voters in WA voted down the Mariners stadium and the politicians said you stupid voters dont know whats good for you and spent the money anyway?
by southern oregon on Jul 6, 2008 8:09 PM PDT 0 recs
None of the above
There is no villain whatsoever. There is, however, a responsible party: the general citizens of Seattle and Washington state. These fine folks include some fans, but are mainly just people like yourself who are fed up with the greedy grab for public money by wealthy professional sports team owners in behalf of themselves and their rich employees. They also object to the willingness of some politicians to go along with it, and they rightly resist the demands of some fans to get everyone else in the community to subsidize those fans’ personal recreational pleasure.
Moreover, you don’t have to be a “special interest” tax-cutting advocate to want your hard-earned tax dollars going, instead, to educate your kids, pave your roads, make sure your water and air is clean, collect your garbage, and protect your communities. All you to have do is use your common sense.
by blazerwizard on Jul 7, 2008 7:00 AM PDT 0 recs
Volume discounts, rent-seeking, and sports.
As alluded to elsewhere: Many industries of all sorts engage in the sort of negotiations with governments—”give us a tax break or we’ll move our team/factory/office somehwere else”, and there are plenty of local governments who happily grant whatever concessions a Rich Dude asks for, in order to get their business.
Unfortunately, I can’t call up the Oregon Department of Revenue, and ask ‘em to lower my state income tax rate to 7% (instead of 9%) or else I’ll move my family to Idaho. Well, I could, but they would laugh at me were I to try that.
And, of course, this is not limited to dealings with governments. Wal-Mart, amazon.com, and a few other retailers have gotten so big and powerful that they can negotiate special prices from suppliers, and undercut pretty much any competitor out there (who has to pay full price from the same supplier). Whether this is good or bad for consumers is a longstanding debate among economists and politicians (amazon and Wal-Mart do pass these savings on to consumers, but this has been devastating to small-business retailers as well as the US manufacturing base).
It may well be that the difference between Oklahoma and Seattle comes to this: OKC, as is well-documented, is a sports-crazy town. They love their Sooners, and I’m sure they will love the Soonerics. Specator sports is a huge part of the local culture there-as it is in many blue-collar locales throughout the US. The citizens of Oklahoma City were more than willing to raise their own taxes to get a sports franchise there. How they will react to a few years of mediocre play, I don’t know-but it’s a different sports culture. And OKC, although a small market, is nowhere near as economically depressed as New Orleans or Memphis.
Seattle’s culture is much like Portland’s-we like sports and we love our Blazers, and they loved their Sonics (and still love their Hawks)-but sports ain’t religion here. Seattle and Washington voters have said “enough!” to the never-ending cash grab by the pro sports leagues. As a result-their NBA team is gone, and one won’t come back unless they are willing to play the cost to have one. Right now, it’s a sellers’ market, and Seattle was outbid. (Once Bennett bought the team, the price for Seattle became higher than the price for OKC, but even before the $500 million demand was issued, Seattle was saying “no”). And this is a legitimate choice to make-there are things I consider more important than sports.
by EngineerScotty on
Jul 7, 2008 12:36 PM PDT
up
0 recs
You are generally correct, Scotty, ....
... and Blazer fans should consider themselves fortunate to have as an owner an exceedingly rich gent who apparently likes the Northwest. If not, they could easily find themselves going the way of the Sonics. All this is just [to me] an unfortunate fact of life in today’s society. It only becomes a question of villains if you desire to “villainize” the entire professional sports culture in this country, and if you do - or don’t - you will receive no objection from me.
by blazerwizard on
Jul 7, 2008 1:17 PM PDT
up
0 recs
Clearly it's Schultz
What moron would sell to an aggressive out of town owner? Obviously someone who doesn’t give a damn about keeping the team in Seattle. He just wanted $$. Bennett is doing what he always intended on doing… how do we know he never outright said that to Schultz during the purchase process? How do we know Schultz isn’t lying when he says “he told me he would keep the team in Seattle”?
by Benjow on Jul 7, 2008 4:28 PM PDT 0 recs
All of them
Schultz has no conscience
Bennett is a filthy liar
Stern is an arrogant, biased, scumbag little troll. I disagree that Stern doesn’t work for the fans. Stern’s job is to keep the NBA healthy, period.
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Jul 8, 2008 6:58 AM PDT 0 recs
I will say that Stern is lucky so many fans are willing to turn a blind eye
to his many gaffes. Quite honestly, for ripping them off by allowing cheaters to referee his games. He’s a lucky, lucky man.
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on
Jul 8, 2008 7:00 AM PDT
up
0 recs







