US Players abroad pay taxes to US
There has been much discussion about Josh Childress taking a contract in Greece this year including that his income is tax free. This may not be accurate. I assume Greece has waived local income taxes for Josh so this post will not address other countries' taxation. It will attempt to address the IRS regulations on US citizens working and living abroad and paying tax to the US.
The genesis of the issue is the exemption of certain income from US income tax (and state income taxes) for US citizens living and working abroad. There are several requirements for this exemption:
(Caveat: this is not professional advice. If you are affected you should discuss with your CPA)
1. A US citizen working abroad is still required to file a US Income Tax Return each year.
2. A US citizen living abroad must be a resident of the country he/she works in.
3. A US citizen living abroad is exempt for income tax on income earned abroad if the citizen has lived outside of the US for the entire tax year up to a maximum limit.
If you are a United States citizen with a tax home in a foreign country and you meet the bona fide residence test or physical presence test, you may exclude up to the maximum limit allowed for the taxable year.
Here are the two tests for living aboad:
a. You must be a resident for a whole year and
b. You must be a bone fide resident as defined below::
You must be a bona fide resident of a foreign country or countries for an uninterrupted period that includes an entire tax year. The characteristics which qualify you as a bona fide resident usually include establishing a home and settling in that country with some degree of permanence. An individual is not a bona fide resident of a foreign country if, the individual claims to be a nonresident to the authorities of the foreign country and his/her earned income is not subject to tax in the foreign country because the individual is considered a nonresident in the foreign country.
or you meet the physical presence test:
The physical presence test can be used by any United States citizen or resident alien. You must be physically present in a foreign country or countries for at least 330 full days during any period of 12 consecutive months. The 12–month period can begin with any day of any calendar month.
If one of those two tests are met there is still a limit on the exclusion:
Limit on Excludable Amount
You may be able to exclude up to $85,700 of your foreign earned income in 2007.
You cannot exclude more than the smaller of:
$85,700, or
Your foreign earned income (discussed earlier) for the tax year minus your foreign housing exclusion (discussed later).
If both you and your spouse work abroad and you and your spouse meet either the bona fide residence test or the physical presence test, you can each choose the foreign earned income exclusion. You do not both need to meet the same test. Together, you and your spouse can exclude as much as $171,400.
Most states have shadow tax laws which allow the state to tax any income that the US taxes for state residents. The definition for residency for states depend on the state and is beyond the scope of this post.
Finally if your income is subject to income tax you are also required to pay self-employment tax (currently 15.3%) on income up to the current limit of $102,000. Senator Obama's proposal to tax addition income above $250,000 would presumably include tax on foreign income as well. This excludes those countries that have an agreement with the US to collect social security type tax in their country but that would likely require that that country tax the income as well.
Your net self–employment income is generally subject to self–employment tax even if it is excluded for income tax purposes. However, if it was earned in a country that has a social security agreement with the United States, which is called a totalization agreement, it may be exempt from U.S. social security taxes, including the self–employment tax.
So for Childress to be told his muti-millions are tax free is apparently false and he will likely pay nearly as much or more than if he played in the US. This is because the employer half of the payroll taxes will be paid by Josh as well which partly offsets the small exclusion of income.
So here is my question: If you are a US citizen pro basketball player would you want to play overseas for a bump in income and avoid returning to the US in the off-season for more than 35 days a year? Having a shorter season does not seem so attractive if you have to stay there to me. Having to pay taxes at home while living abroad is also an equalizer. Do you think Josh's agents researched this question? Would taxes even matter in the decision to play abroad?
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Comments
The offer as I understood it was for Childress to net $20 million over three years...
....the team would make up the difference. His taxes would be paid by the team, and he would have no liability. In other words they are really paying him 37-38 million over three years.
by khryse22 on Jul 31, 2008 4:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Under US tax law the tax paid by the employer would simply add to the income taxed
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But I would appreciate a link to your information
Thanks.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is some level of income that would mean Childress makes 20 mil over three years...
after taxes. That is what there agreement states. How you determine a persons income is completely up to the company. This per Hollinger.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3501488
“Agent Jim Tanner said Wednesday the three-year deal was worth about $20 million after taxes. The money is guaranteed, and Childress can opt out of the contract after each year.”
by khryse22 on Jul 31, 2008 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, is this really that hard to understand
For simplicity, let’s just say the tax rate is 15%. That means he gets to keep 85% of his income. If his contract calls for him to get paid 7 mill, it’s not hard to do the math.
7000000/.85 = 8.24 million
Olympiakos would just simply write him a check for 8.24 million. Childress then pays the government 1.24 million and he nets $7 million.
Obviously it’s a little more complicated since he’d be taxed on all compensation he received(housing, etc.), but that’s the gist of it.
by Royster on Jul 31, 2008 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand but the contract would be closer to $32 million at 37% tax rate
Which is the highest marginal rate and does not account for taxes on the car and house in addition. This would also not include any state taxes. Your math does not account for the tax on the tax and when you add that you then add again the tax on the tax etc,
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 7:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that should be 35% rate
Perhaps I remembered it wrong.At the 35% rate the total pay needed to receive $20M tax free is closer to $31M. Of note is that the top contracts paid by European clubs for players has been around $4M or $5M per my memory. And if the exchange rate change is factored in about $8M so Josh would be paid almost double the high. That is why I am sceptical of the wording here. I think it is tax free from Greece not the USA.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It said, it would be worth $20 million US
so the exchange rate would be moot, and would actually help Olympiakos out there. Plus, Euro contracts have been exploding in recent years: Krstic got like $10 million for two years, Rudy supposedly has a standing $20 million offer from CSKA, etc. Yeah, it’s a lot of money for a Euro team, but this was widely described as the biggest contract in Euro basketball history, so I’d say that’s within reason. Plus, it’s also been stated that he had around a $30 million deal with Atlanta on the table when he left, so if the money were really better there, you’d expect the Greek compensation to be around that, considering it was for one or two fewer years.
My point was, that it’s not hard to calculate compensation based on after tax income. They know what his after tax income is, so they just work backwards. Then you’re not paying “tax on the tax compensation”, but you’re just compensating him enough in the first place so that his after tax income is equal to whatever his contract says it is.
Now, it’s not like I’ve seen the contract and I can say for sure that it accounts for US taxes, but given the wording that’s been thrown around, I’d be surprised if it didn’t.
by Royster on Jul 31, 2008 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Josh Childress is worth $32M over 2 years to a European Club
Someone like Ben Gordon would demand 2.5 to 3 times as much which would approach or pass Michael Jordon’s salary at his highest ($30M is what I remember for his last year). No club in Europe can afford this,
The ACB club in Spain which lured Fran Vasquez into reneging on Orlando a few years ago with a big contract has now gone down to a lower division because they lost so much money they are in financial jeopardy. That contract was about $5M per year as I remember it but the exchange rate at the time was closer to 1.0 and now is 1.6. That was my point in exchange rate. Childress will get nearly double the previous high reported (as I remember it).
You are correct on the wording of the story but the story may not be accurate, Noting the above figures the reality is that the clubs cannot afford what is reported and if you do break your bank why not for a player that is really good?
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Over 3 years, actually
And the top Euro teams always lose money. The richest ones are funded almost philanthropically by billionaires. I remember an SI article about CSKA a few months back where it talked about the billionaire Russian oil baron owner essentially being forced by Putin to fund the team as a matter of national pride. The Olympiakos owner is more autonomous than that, I believe, but he is similarly rich enough that it doesn’t matter. If you’re familiar with English soccer, think something similar to Chelsea, where their owner if like the 15th richest man in the world and has thrown something like 800 million pounds into the team over like 5 years which he essentially has no chance of ever remaking.
I can’t comment to much on Vazquez because I’m not too familiar with the specifics of his contract, and ACB’s status, but I’m fairly confident of the Krstic numbers, which are also after tax. And I’d say it’s completely within reason for Josh Childress to make 1.5 times what Krstic is making, especially considering they probably had to pay a premium to convince the first american in their prime to come over.
Is it fiscally responsible? no, but it does generate them a ton of publicity and given that olympiakos is building a new stadium, I believe, that can never hurt.
by Royster on Jul 31, 2008 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct on both points
Three years and some owners don’t care. But Russia is different than Greece in that Russia under Putin’s thumb is trying to make a splash. But the Euroleague only allows 1 Russian team each year so CSKA (which is responsible in their contracts) is the one team anyone will ever see.
The stir in the NBA is whether a star LeBron, Wade etc would get lured over there. My fanpost is intended to note the limitations of such a move when Childress is already so over-priced. Other teams in the Euroleague will put pressure on a club which forces them all into an arms race. I don’t see those European leagues allowing this to happen. You know that Europe is about football and not basketball so the example is somewhat limited to note the football contracts. Do you think the public interest is sufficient to bring a billionaire’s pride to the game there?
Of course we can all hope that K@by goes!!! – Hmm would their country let him in?
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I really can't ever see a top level NBA player
ever going to Europe. The best level of guy I could see would be like an Andrew Bogut level guy, which would be barely above Childress in my book. The danger would just be if enough of these midlevel guys move to start diluting the quality of the nba. The CBA is essentially set up to screw those guys. Top guys get maxed out and are protected, and the minimum guys are protected with the relatively high minimum salaries, but all of these $6-7 million guys just have no leverage whatsoever entering RFA. Only teams with cap space can offer them what they’re worth, and they don’t do that because the team will just match it anyways, so guys like Childress have no leverage with the QO being such a bad deal for them.
Personally, the issue is if enough of these guys leave, it dilutes the quality of the nba. When you can run 8 deep with quality players, it fosters a lot more of a team game. If teams only have 5 decent guys and have to rotate in scrubs to replace Euro defections, we could start to see some of a return to the stagnant, iso basketball of the ‘90s, even with zone defenses allowed.
by Royster on Jul 31, 2008 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points
But the resultant improvement in European basketball might inspire more young players there providing an even greater pool of talent for everyone as well.
I do think you are correct that the NBA and players union will have to consider how to balance this development in future CBA sessions so it serves a good purpose and may ultimately be more fair to the players. However more players may also choose to play their 5th year under their tender and become UFAs at an earlier age as well.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Aug 1, 2008 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the link (See below for discussion)
This appears as an ESPN.com news services story which likely means AP.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would assume
since its a 3 year contract, he can just stay in Greece and cover the entire fiscal tax year correct. And that would mean he had to pay no US taxes. Or did I read what you wrote wrong?
Shaniqua don't live here no more... Is Shaniqua there, HELL NO!
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jul 31, 2008 4:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No you are correct but only the first $85,700 is exempt so most is still taxed
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahh.. well I am sure that his agent already thought of that
And im sure the Greek team will pay it.. i doubt i can find this written anywhere though.
Shaniqua don't live here no more... Is Shaniqua there, HELL NO!
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jul 31, 2008 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a valid question
The problem is all payments to or on behalf of the employee is taxable and must be reported. Failure to report and pay taxes subjects the player to tax fraud felony charges and penalties.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So that means when the IRS sends the bill
the greek team cant just give him a bonus to pay for it?
Shaniqua don't live here no more... Is Shaniqua there, HELL NO!
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jul 31, 2008 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you sure?
It seems like if I had to pay $1,000.00 in taxes, my employer could just write me a check for $1,000.00. At the end of the year, I’d just pay the taxes on that $1,000.00, which is still less than $1,000.00. We could do that every year and I would only be on the hook after I was no longer employed there. Even then, I bet the contract could say that my employer pays all the taxes related to my job.
by tominhawaii on Jul 31, 2008 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are taxed on your income as received for the first year
and then your income plus the tax bonus in the second and subsequent years. Of course in reality you have to pay estimated tax payments (in Childress’ case perhaps about $1.5M per quarter on $10M per year) so you defer only 25% of one year and then have to add it in the final year..
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What no love for a post that is not about improbable trades?
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lebron for Petko!?!
Shaniqua don't live here no more... Is Shaniqua there, HELL NO!
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jul 31, 2008 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holy cow!
Where’s the recs? Excellent info. Very interesting read.
Krikey! Kiteboarding is Kewl!
by prezofdeath on Jul 31, 2008 8:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
American NBA players defecting to Europe is relatively new.
But Americans playing ball overseas is not. Hundreds of lesser known college players do it every year. You’re saying that, nonetheless, the entire US media is downright wrong about whether Euro clubs have the ability to pay players’ taxes?
They must’ve found some way to make it work, right? I’m not an international tax lawyer, but I’m sure a lot of people who are took a long, hard look at this issue, and the conclusion they apparently came away with is that Childress and other NBA guys in Europe don’t have to pay taxes on their income. So, while I can appreciate that you likely know more about this than I do, I have to be a little skeptical about your ultimate conclusion.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 31, 2008 9:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I have been corresponding with Preetom Bhattachara of Hoopsworld on the subject
And he is intrigued and has not dismissed the issue out of hand. Let us see what develops over the coming weeks. Your point is correct that the media are missing this story. Most seem to have run with AP’s wire feed without doing their own research. Of course the AP is never wrong!
The issue here has nothing to do with international tax law but with US tax law. It has been a number of years since I practiced this field but did have both training and experience in it and you can read the IRS literature for yourself as linked above. Perhaps you will see something I missed? Thanks.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm going to dive into the code now.
I’ll let you know when I come up for air. Just kidding. Didn’t mean to be overly critical – my apologies. I’ll leave the issue in your hands. Not sure why I was arguing about it in the first place. This proves there is no limit to my determination to be distracted when I’m stuck at the office late.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 31, 2008 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL - I didn't take to be critical
I am glad for the interest. One of the great benefits of BE is the openness and challenge of new ideas and the development of those ideas. Thanks.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting stuff, but some errors here
1. The Euro clubs can pay European tax on behalf of their players.
2. In effect, this means, as some have posted above, that his salary will be somewhere north of $30 million, but he will net $20 million after European taxes are deducted.
3. He will possibly be able to exclude the $85K, as posted, from his U.S. taxable income, but this is a virtual irrelevance.
4. His U.S. taxes will be based on his gross salary, which will be over $30 million (over the three years).
5. He will be able to deduct foreign tax credit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_tax_credit) from his U.S. tax liability. Basic non-technical description of foreign tax credit (from the link above):
If a person lives in Country A, but has income sourced in Country B, he may find that both countries want to tax that income. Country A wants to tax the income because they tax the income of their residents. Country B wants to tax the income because they tax any income generated within their borders. To eliminate double taxation, the two countries have established a tax treaty saying that the country where the income is generated has the primary claim on the tax, in this case Country B. The earner would calculate and then pay tax to Country B. Next, he would calculate the amount of tax normally payable to Country A, but then reduce that tax by using the foreign tax credit to subtract the amount of tax already paid to Country B. Country A would only receive any tax if the amount paid to Country B was lower than the Country A tax, and the tax payable would be the difference between the two amounts. If the Country B tax was higher than the Country A tax, then there would be no tax paid to Country A.
6. Since U.S. tax law will view the $30M+ number as his income, it will also view the tax paid on his behalf as being paid by him, so it can all be applied to the foreign tax credit.
7. Since European taxes are typically higher than U.S. taxes, the European taxes paid on his behalf will wipe out his U.S. tax liability.
Therefore, he really will clear $20 million, or whatever the precise contract amount is, after tax.
Why do they agree to after-tax amounts, rather than just figure out what the gross amount would be and then agree to that? Perhaps to protect the player against changes in tax rates. European countries do increase tax rates.
As to employment taxes (social security), Childress is not self-employed, he is employed by a European team. So he would not be subject to self-employment taxes. He will certainly be subject to the employment taxes (social security or whatever it is called) of Greece. As in the case in the U.S. with social security, in all likelihood the employer pays part of the tax and Childress is liable for part of it. In most countries, social security taxes are limited to income below a threshold, just as in the U.S., so this is small potatoes. Even if you are correct about him being self-employed (almost certainly wrong), and fully liable for U.S. FICA taxes (probably wrong), his current liability would only be $15K a year.
But it is likely that part of the agreement is that his income is being “grossed up” enough so that he gets $20M after employment taxes as well.
I do not know, but strongly suspect that Greece has an agreement with the U.S. that excludes the U.S. from collecting employment tax (social security/self employment) on income which has been taxed in Greece (and vice versa). Most European countries do. In any event, if he is subject to any U.S. taxes, his agents will have researched it, and probably written into the agreement that he will be paid enough to ensure that he gets $20M after all taxes.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 1, 2008 2:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Nicely done.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Aug 1, 2008 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points - thanks
The foreign tax credit is of course useful if he pays Greek taxes. I read elsewhere that US players there are tax exempt so i did not include it in the discussion except to note that foreign taxes were not considered. It does not change the point, however, that the contract cost is ridiculous and a superstar contract in his prime is not going to happen for a European club with a US player.
The Social security tax is minuscule in this case unless the congress and president follow through on Senator Oboma’s proposal of a new tax on income above $250K in which case it is significant. at nearly $3M more. The offset with Greece’s system is a wash as noted about the income tax. Net effect is a cost to the team that leaves better players all over Europe demanding raises. Self employment is used because his employer is not a US company and is not subject to withholding.for US taxes (See links cited above).
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Aug 1, 2008 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Social Security tax
I suspect Obama’s proposal is veto meat if McCain wins, and filibuster material if Obama wins.
But (correct me if I’m wrong), if it does pass, it will be in calendar year 2009 at the earliest, which means it won’t take effect until calendar year 2010 at the earliest.
Since Childress can opt out after one year, he can just opt out and come back if he’s taking a big hit. But the $3M you’ve referred to isn’t annual. Annually, his gross income is somewhere just over $10M. So IF the tax was at 15% (it won’t be) it would be perhaps $1.6M.
But there is no way the U.S. Congress will pass a 15% tax increase on income over that threshold. That would be an immense tax increase. They would more likely do as Gordon Brown did here a few years back and hit everyone with a 1% tax on income over the threshold. Enough to bring in a huge amount of money, but not enough to make people think it was unfair. It will probably be nudged up a little in a few years. It won’t be more than 5%, max. That would mean a tax bill for Childress of $5-600K, a nice chunk of change but not enough to really change the dynamics.
I don’t see anything in your links that says self-employment would apply. I’m not saying you are wrong, I just didn’t see it there. But almost certainly it won’t anyway because Greek employment taxes will be paid.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 1, 2008 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they did the reverse with Bush's tax cuts
If you made money on Capital gains (bought something at low value then sold for profit, whether it be stock, land or socks) then you pay tax on that profit. But the Bush cuts made the max tax bracket drop from 35% (or somewhere thereabouts, it was the same as income tax—ie tax on earnings from labor) to a max rate of 15%. Some thing that was ahardly noticibble to anyone who made less than a million bucks per yer. Now the way salaries of the Hedge fund managers is coded in tax law, their income is considered Capital gains, therefore they didn’t pay social secutiy and only paid 15%. But you see tthos esame fund manangers (a few hundred or so) averaged around the tens of millions of dollars per year.
The point is that if you make a lot you don’t py nearly much tax percentage wise as if you make an average amount. The wealthiest indiviuals pay a lower percentage in tax then the poorest individuals (someone making minimum wage working full-time).
by NWfan on Aug 1, 2008 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are talking about one small group
...hedge fund managers.
If, as you say, all of their income is classified as capital gains, and they aren’t paying social security, the solution is not to raise social security taxes. The solution is to close the loophole.
If you are correct that the wealthiest individuals are paying a lower percentage in tax, it is because they are able to exempt much of their income, because they certainly have a higher tax rate. The solution is not to increase rates—if they are exempting income, it will have no impact on them. The solution is to limit their ability to exempt their income. I thought that the Alternative Minimum Tax was supposed to accomplish this.
The problem with increasing rates is that it doesn’t really impact the very wealthy, it impacts the people who are beginning to be wealthy, those who have worked hard, taken business risks, and it is starting to pay off. It would be better to structure a tax system so that those who are already very wealthy cannot shelter their income from taxes, rather than a system that hits the hardest those who are actually earning the most.
You can make money on certain types of investments and not have to pay taxes, but money that you actually earn in salary is always taxable. This favors the people who already have the money to invest in tax-free investments and may not even be working, rather than those who work to earn their money.
Social security taxes hit earned income (wages). I don’t know about Obama’s proposal, but I am guessing it is intended to hit earned income as well, rather than investment income. The effect of that will simply be to maintain the gap between the already very rich and those who are starting to be successful.
That’s my view from afar.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 2, 2008 1:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The self employment tax is due if a player is deemed a contractor under foreign law
As a practical matter the taxpayer is responsible for paying self-employment tax on earned income whenever the employer fails to withhold those taxes. However, we can assume Greece catagorizes Childress as an employee and the club withholds the tax. Under the Social Insurance system in Greece employees are subject to a 6.67% tax. Employers pay 13.33% tax for a total of 20% compared to the US tax of 15.3%. This rate rises to 8.87% employee and 14.73% employer (total of 23.6%) for arduous employment. This tax is applied to a maximum of 68,337.92 Euros a year.
As I said at the beginning foreign taxes are beyond the scope of this analysis. The purpose is to establish under US Tax law that players are still required to report and pay tax on the vast bulk of their earnings and should the employer endeavor to pay those taxes that additional payment is taxed as well. With the added costs to the employer of those taxes the contract as reported is more than nearly any European Club likely takes in for total revenue. It does not indicate to me the likelihood of others following suit. Foreign citizens playing in the NBA, however, are a completely off-topic issue as their own country’s tax laws would apply.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Aug 1, 2008 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I misunderstood your focus
I thought, based on your last paragraph in the original post, that you were focused on whether or not Childress was actually going to get hit with a big tax bill here in the U.S. To me, it seems evident that he will not, whether he stays overseas for 330 days or not. The reason for this is because of the foreign tax credit.
As to your last paragraph, I believe the foreign tax credit also means there will be no substantial U.S. tax liability to be paid by the Greek team. But there will be substantial Greek tax liability which pushes the cost to the Greek team very high indeed. And this kind of liability does mean that they are effectively paying Childress over $10M a year. It seems unlikely that most Euro teams will be able to consistently compete with the NBA at that kind of level.
I also wonder if he is being paid a specific number of Euros, or if he has been given an agreement that, whatever the exchange rate does, they will pay him enough Euros to make $20M. In other words, is he exposed to the exchange rate risk, or are they? That’s the type of thing a sharp agent might have considered asking for.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 2, 2008 2:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question of payment to US even with the foreign tax credit if it applies
revolves around whether the Greek tax total is greater than the US total as the credit only removes the Greek tax actually paid or accrued. In addition if taxed and then reimbursed by the government (making it Greek tax free) there is no credit.
I thought of the exchange issue as well. With the Euro rise the gain has been against the dollar but that can (and historically does) reverse over time (unknown when). I would ask for $20M to be the floor and allow any additional gain to also accrue to Josh. And I would assume his agent negotiated this because the rise does not cost the team any additional.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Aug 2, 2008 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
PS - I appreciate your contribution greatly
It is as I hoped – minds working together to achieve a purpose and conclude together. $30M as you have pointed out, is to me just beyond reason.
And I resent the concept that US citizens can be tax free on big earned incomes. Not true.(And we never even studied the alternative minimum tax!).
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Aug 2, 2008 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the comment
I’ve enjoyed the discussion.
As to the Greek tax, I can’t imagine that it is lower than U.S. tax would be. We’re talking Europe here.
I can’t even tell you how much wealthier I would be if I were paying U.S. tax rather than U.K. tax, but it would be pretty significant. And that is true across the board in Europe, especially for high earners. I would bet significant sums of money that Greek taxes would be higher for Childress than the U.S. tax liability, and that the foreign tax credit will wipe out his U.S. liability. But I’m too lazy to look it up.
I doubted the comment that big earners would be tax free. I know wealthy people who aren’t working can invest in municipal bonds, but even then they may be subject to capital gains and potentially de minimis rules apply as well. And earned income is always taxed, unless perhaps you work in the Kremlin or something.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on Aug 4, 2008 2:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So sad I missed this
heh since I am at Southern Oregon U. working on an accounting degree I would of jumped right in this if I had seen it yesterday or this morning.
Anway jscots post looks correct,
and yes none of this is “valid” tax advise talk to your CPA before you follow our postings :)
by Whiteviking on Aug 1, 2008 9:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Where do these enormous salaries come from?
It seems like the typical, good but not NBA good European player makes about $100,000, so how can some teams afford these crazy huge salaries?
Or perhaps the real question is, how come some of the players only make $100,000?
(I know part of the answer is that Rudy and Childress are of NBA caliber, but still. . . )
by Section323 on Aug 1, 2008 1:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Part of the reason I posted this is because it does not make economic sense
and it raises the ire of other local league owners. The NBA dealt with such a situation by negotiating a salary cap. That likely will happen in Europe as well if it becomes a problem.
Josh Childress is a fine man and a good player but many good players are already playing basketball in Europe and I know of none who make these types of salaries.
I would also point out that the likelihood of the AP getting the story dead wrong is high as well.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
by lee3022 on Aug 1, 2008 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feal like i just walked into the ladies undergarment section at the mall
sooooooo outa place. haha. great post thow, I actually learned something. THIS is what makes the BEdge so fricken awsome.
"Doing research= good
Making up things=bad."
---jksnake99
by ptwnblzr on Aug 2, 2008 10:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They let men try stuff on at Victoria's Secret
- Tom
by tominhawaii on Aug 3, 2008 3:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are those men?!! Is that underwear?!! Cheese, I need to get out more. I can't keep up.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
by annthefan on Aug 3, 2008 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a curve ball
Everyone expects a joke so I linked Victoria’s Secrets stuff. I’m battling with predictability.
- Tom
by tominhawaii on Aug 3, 2008 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I expected that.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
by annthefan on Aug 4, 2008 2:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A recent article from ESPN seem to agree with our conclusions
By Ian Whittell, the article suggests there is no looming exodus from the US by US citizens.
The team then has to cover the tax so that, in the case of Childress and his three-year, $20 million deal, Olympiacos reportedly is declaring a salary of about $32.5 million, with the Greek government pocketing the difference in income tax.
Of course, the other factor that the American abroad has to bear in mind is that on returning to the U.S., he must declare foreign income to the IRS and can be taxed twice - once overseas, once at home - depending on the tax arrangement between the two countries.
Additionally the ability of European clubs paying such salaries is held in doubt:
“I don’t think there would be more than three or four European teams who could make offers like that [made to Childress],” says Toronto Raptors assistant GM Maurizio Gherardini, who is Italian.
“I think Euroleague still has a lot of work to do,” says Euroleague CEO Jordi Bertomeu when asked to envision a day when Nowitzki and Gasol are playing in his league.“The NBA offers players multimillion-dollar contracts, like Gilbert Arenas’ $111 million contract. I think it’s hard to imagine a Euroleague club reaching those kinds of numbers. But I wouldn’t rule it out … maybe one day!”
The French League recently revealed budgets for each team in the league that ranged from Le Mans at 5.63 million euros ($8.77m) to Rouen at 2.28 million euros ($3.55m).And those figures are budgets that cover not only player salaries but also operating costs and front-office wages—hardly extravagant amounts.
There is much more in the article and well worth clicking the link and reading it all.
by lee3022 on Aug 3, 2008 5:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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