A Lost Art
One of the things I found most interesting about the extensive collection of material Quick and Ely provided yesterday was the profession of Brandon Roy's dedication to moving without the ball. Not only does this make sense given his backcourt role, it's truly a lost art to scoring in the NBA.
One of the things I noticed about Petteri Koponen in the rare Summer League minutes he played without running the offense was his dedication to cutting hard and fast without the ball in his hands. This attribute isn't enough to gain him a roster spot on its own, but it was refreshing to see after years of watching NBA players run lackadaisical routes off of screens and lane cuts. Seriously, I know they need to conserve energy somewhere, but Randy Moss runs six times as hard on a designed rushing play as most NBA smalls do without the rock. Most screens are completely wasted as a passing angle never develops because of the leisurely pace of the cutter. Koponen isn't exactly a speed demon in NBA terms, but he looked like lightning by comparison.
One of the few guys to use off-ball movement to scoring advantage in the modern NBA was Reggie Miller. Granted he ran funny, but he never stopped using those picks until the defender got fatigued and he got free. All he needed was an instant, and BAM! Two points. He demonstrated that it could be done, even in an era famous for its one-on-one dribble-fests.
Now consider the current Blazer squad, how unselfish they are, and how most of their guys can pass. If Brandon can use that direction change ability plus the quick burst of speed away from the ball he's going to be set up for open opportunities even in the halfcourt. At that point he becomes an insufferable headache to the opposition. You already go into a near panic when he's dribbling up top. Now your stress level is sky-high wherever he is on the court and whoever has the ball. Turn your head for a second and you're dead. The pressure on any defender is immense. You make them work so hard and think so much that they wear out quicker, which is the extra advantage in addition to the points you generate. If you've got an offensive guy guarding you his road to 20 points becomes that much harder. Ever tried to shoot or drive when you're tired?
Side note: If someday Jerryd Bayless eventually starts mastering the same tricks and he can play together with Roy, look out.
You really only need three things to make this work. First, teammates who are willing to look for you, which Portland has. Second the ability to score, especially off of the short jumper, without having to dribble. This is the skill Brandon and any who want to follow in his footsteps will need to master. It's not instinctive to players of this generation, who have basically learned to score off of the dribble and whose only catch-and-shoot experience, if any, comes at a standstill from the three-point arc. Third, you need enough heart and desire to run those moves instead of walking through them. That's pretty much it.
Every team in the league runs these plays already. Few seem to do more than go through the motions. The infrastructure is already there. Will somebody be able to take advantage of it?
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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51 comments
Comments
Shades of '77
Bobby Gross made his magic moving without the ball, and Bill Walton made him a star.
Your comment about our being unselfish is easy to believe, but are we really a good passing team and not one that lofts the 3 too early?
by dvcastle on Jul 29, 2008 12:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good enough
A lot of passing is attitude, which we have. But the point guards can pass OK, Roy is good at it, Lamarcus has some ability (though he didn’t show it much last year), and Greg can as well. That’s most of our major players.
The other guy I’m excited about seeing move around is Rudy. I want to see what he’s got and whether his teammates will recognize it.
—Dave
by Dave on Jul 29, 2008 1:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking the same about Rudy when I read your post.
He can create his own shot, which was very important for his team in the Spanish league, where there are not many players with this ability, but it won´t be for the Blazers because so many players can create his own shot. In the NBA the most important Rudy´s tool will be his off-ball movement added to his quick shot and his court vision, IMHO. On the other hand, I fear about his defense, oriented to steal, and his attraction for exhibition plays, I think he will be clever enough to keep it controlled. Anyway, defenses won´t have a rest with this kind of attackers.
The Midnight Rambler
by amlmart1 on Jul 29, 2008 4:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let the other 95% of the Blazer Edgers
carry on about Bayless - it’s Rudy I’m enthused about. The quick shot and court vision you mention Amlmart1are two important skills that appear to be missing from Bayless’ game as well as the long range jumper. Rudy, like Bayless can get to the hoop but as you mention he also moves well off the ball.
I’m hoping we get a chance to see him in the Olympics beyond just when he’s playing against the US but what I’m really looking forward to is seeing Rudy this fall on rain-soaked Oregon soil.
I remember telling him how impressed I was with a player during summer league. In Avery's unique voice, he replied, "Marc, it's summer league." I
by TwoDeep on Jul 29, 2008 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
me too
Oh how I long to see Rudy in a blazers uni. I will be at the first preseason game, book it…
RUDY > MJ
by myemic23 on Jul 29, 2008 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish I could, but
COINCAST is holding us hostage. Have to keep
vow of no games until a deal is done.
I can’t wait for this team to shock the League !
Go Blazers! COINCAST SUCKS !!!
It's GO time !
by walkoff41 on Jul 29, 2008 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am with you on this
Rudy is a much more polished player with a similar skill set and will contribute from day one.JB has sky high potential but with a lot to learn.
by southern oregon on Jul 29, 2008 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome to the Spanish Army. I´m recruiting Rudy and Sergio supporters, you know.
I know Sergio is almost frozen by now, probably will be gone if he doesn´t explode this year, but perhaps with the Rudy presence he will get warm and will go out of his cryogenics. It would be funny.
The Midnight Rambler
by amlmart1 on Jul 30, 2008 3:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ball movement and player movement without the ball are much more ingrained in European basketball
Good teams usually get a lot of open looks and mostly uncontested shots on the basket, while worse ones struggle and have to rely on individual moves. See how Greece (great pick and rolls) and somewhat how Spain plays (they have more individual class, so they are less dependent on it) in the Olympics and people will get an idea. Glad that Roy is becoming more “European” in this regard.
A second point not directly mentioned by Dave: From what I understood, Roy was not only working on half court pick and roll off-ball movements, but also on his conditioning, quick release, and trust of others to bring the ball up court in fastbreaks (see also his example on why he wouldn’t like to coexist with a Chris Paul). So after this training he wants to be able to run down court and still immediately take a good jump shot over a defender instead of just driving inside for a difficult attempt or ending the break. Or if another guy runs with him and handles the ball, don’t call for the ball while he is still running and instead wait somewhere outside the line for a second, then immediately take a shot once he gets the pass.
Odenied: Coach, I promise I wasn't running hard ...
by Norsktroll on Jul 29, 2008 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brandon Roy's tempo
One point not illustrated in an otherwise acute post is the tempo Brandon plays at. The observation of how Brandon wears down the opposition is not to be understated.
Most players are controlled by the game and take their opportunities. Brandon controls the game and then makes his opportunities. Its like Brandon puts some pace and cadence into the game defenders arent accustomed to, yet fear, and the longer Brandon sets em up, the more fear he installs and the more lucrative the result.
Brandon is not just really good or great. He’s a Mozart on the he court.
As for the Reggie Miller reference, honestly, was that necessary? Reggie needed four guys to run circles around for spots. That was their offense. Roys spot to spot movement is quicker and sharper, plus Brandons window to release to tighter then Millers. No doubt Miller was deadly when wide open, but he has little to offer beyond uncanny range.
What else did you say? I guess the rest of my initial argument faded into the sunset…
Keep up the good work
"Meow" --- My cat Bonzi suggesting my money would be better spent on albacore then a couple months of mindless TV from COMCAST.... at least until the season starts.
by bow4meow on Jul 29, 2008 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I was referring
to Reggie’s non-stop motion and his shooting ability rather than his style of game. If you look at all of the people mentioned in this thread-Rip Hamilton, Jeff Hornacek-Brandon’s actual game isn’t really like any of them.
—Dave
by Dave on Jul 29, 2008 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
tough issue to keep re-thinking
Reggie was great, no doubt, but I still liked his game alot better when he played for UCLA. Probably because he didnt have to work as hard. The whole matter was a gag anyways.
When you say Brandon Roys game is distinguished, I agree. Brandon has so many facets to the game, and that diamond isnt completely cut. I cant wait.
"Meow" --- My cat Bonzi suggesting my money would be better spent on albacore then a couple months of mindless TV from COMCAST.... at least until the season starts.
by bow4meow on Jul 30, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shades of '86 too
Moving without the ball was the hallmark of the Vandeweghe | Paxson | early-Drexler Blazers and they scored like crazy.
I think what killed that style of play was the Jordan-era clear-out game. Now it’s four guys standing around and one guy trying to drive through three or four defenders—even the Blazers do a lot of that. If Jarrett Jack had been active in a different way, not going 1-on-4 into the lane, he would have had fewer 1-10 nights.
This post makes a very good point.
by jtanzer on Jul 29, 2008 4:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One more thing ...
Every team in the league runs these plays already. Few seem to do more than go through the motions.
I don’t think they run quite the same plays. What I see is not movement, but rather these two things:
- high pick and rolls.
- one guy driving with the ball and kicking it out for a spot-up jumper (or for someone else to drive the lane).
That’s different—it isn’t moving without the ball.
by jtanzer on Jul 29, 2008 4:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most teams
have back screens in the lane for cutters. Teams with a real post presence also tend to work their guards off the ball when the post guy has the rock. But it’s been a while since I’ve seen players take those cuts seriously.
—Dave
by Dave on Jul 29, 2008 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rip Hamilton
makes his livin’ off those cuts.
by torsoheap on Jul 29, 2008 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
well said.
Live at Doug Fir Lounge on Aug. 7, 9 pm -- YEAR 5000 -- http://www.myspace.com/y5k
by Y5k on Jul 29, 2008 6:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It may have been the Jordan-era, but it wasn't Jordan himself.
Jordan ability to play off the ball continues to separate him offensively from the Kobe’s and LeBron’s of today. One of the keys to the Bulls’ success in the 90s was moving Jordan off the ball more.
by Scotter on Jul 29, 2008 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can I say AI?
Live at Doug Fir Lounge on Aug. 7, 9 pm -- YEAR 5000 -- http://www.myspace.com/y5k
by Y5k on Jul 29, 2008 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was great !
I was watching a game from 1987 the other night and
was reminded why I loved watching Clyde & Kiki play
together. They beat Golden State by 19 with Clyde and
Kiki playing a lot of pick and slip, give and go, catch &
shoot off of the curl, etc. It is fun basketball to watch.
I see some potential in this club as Roy, Webster and
Blake will give up the ball at any time. I think GO will be the
big surprise, as he hit Smooth on some cuts in their brief
summer league play last summer. Martell has a chance
to really blossom if he continues to work on his cuts &
curls, as he showed he can be a catch and shoot player.
Travis, Rudy, Buffet and TRex have a chance to make
a great white unit, with Joel setting the screens and the
other guys moving/cutting to open spots. We have WAAAY
to many great shooters to not obliterate the oppositions
2nd unit.
I can’t wait . . .
and . . . !!!!
It's GO time !
by walkoff41 on Jul 29, 2008 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Webster
does a decent job of cutting without the ball, I think, but he’s usually not the one the play is designed for so he doesn’t get it.
One of the greats is of course Richard Hamilton. He had a TNT spot where he showed how he moves without the ball.
by jamon51 on Jul 29, 2008 2:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
was just writing up the same
that one quarter in utah (i think) last season we saw it from martell.
when i read about BRoy working on it I lost control of my bayless face. 
by contemnor on Jul 29, 2008 3:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saw it in the loss against Seattle last spring
He was doing a lot of cutting and working his defender hard. It paid off for Webster (22 points) but unfortunately not for the team (they lost).
by DonkeyShins on Jul 29, 2008 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Martell does a decent job off of those curl screens
as long as the Blazers feed him. The problem comes when they miss him, or when the play isn’t designed for him. At that point either his designed role, his choice, or both becomes standing around on the weak side. At that point you don’t see the best of Martell anymore.
—Dave
by Dave on Jul 29, 2008 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've seen that behavior from our Mr. Webster as well
Saw that in another Seattle / Portland game – he started off cutting a lot off of screens but then as the ball wasn’t getting to him, he lost interest. If he could keep up that level of intensity during the game (not sure how much effort it takes for him as at least he isn’t fighting through screens) it would probably garner more touches in the game as his defender gets winded.
by DonkeyShins on Jul 29, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yah
The additional point to be made is that several Blazer offensive sets are designed for the small forward to stand weak-side without moving too much. This was part of the thing with Batum in Summer League. He was playing small forward and his positioning was really similar to Martell’s…as, unfortunately, his role turned out to be.
—Dave
by Dave on Jul 29, 2008 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was also going to mention Rip as one of the best at moving without the ball.
by timg56 on Jul 29, 2008 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Webster does a good job when running the Reeggggiiiieee offense...
...when Broy was out all he did was run baseline to baseline looking for the three. He needs to be able to do that inside the three point line. He does a very good job working the give and go with a big man on the block. I would like to see more of that. In terms of curling at the top of the key I do not remember Webster doing a lot of that, could be that I am not remembering it.
by khryse22 on Jul 29, 2008 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
An observation about players who really move well without the ball
It seems to me that the players who are the most skilled at moving without the ball are guys who can really shoot it, but whose strength doesn’t include being able to create their own offense. Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton are obvious choices in the pros, I remember Steve Alford was the same was playing for Indiana. If these guys don’t move at full speed, and cut sharply off screens, they don’t score, and if they don’t score, they’re pretty much out of business.
Given that, I don’t expect Roy to reach their level of intensity (as he’ll be effective regardless) when it comes to getting free off screens, but any improvement will be good for the team, of course.
by baduk on Jul 29, 2008 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well done Dave.
I see these craze “screens” all the time that are more like little farces. They don’t go anywhere. They free up the dribbler for a split second, but no one breaks free, no one pulls off a sweet pass. I hate to say it, but here goes: Watch some late 80s and early 90s Utah Jazz games. Or better yet, get yerself the Pistol Pete how-to kit. Mgic Jhnson had it too. I’d like to see a team of 20-something Sabonises, flipping crazy wide-eyed sneak passes that drive the Nuggets nuts all year. How’d they do it? They played as a team.
Live at Doug Fir Lounge on Aug. 7, 9 pm -- YEAR 5000 -- http://www.myspace.com/y5k
by Y5k on Jul 29, 2008 6:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
this is a great point.
but there is one more thing that is, in my opinion, most important of all and that is good screens to run off of. You can run and cut all day and night, without a good solid pick with good timing, no amount of cutting and moving is going to be effective. Thankfully, we have Joel, perhaps one of the more underrated screensetting centers in the league.
Remember Webster’s 3rd quarter explosion, yeah? Perhaps Web should have taken Joel out to dinner after that one. Just sayin…
Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'. -the shawshank redemption.
by pdxborn on Jul 29, 2008 7:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm hoping Oden will work with Joel a lot
Joel can school a lot of centers / big men in the NBA on how to set a good pick.
by DonkeyShins on Jul 29, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joel sets wimpy picks
Just kiding
by southern oregon on Jul 29, 2008 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Martell Webster
pdxborn, you beat me to it, as soon as I read the original article I thought of Webster’s 3rd quarter again the Jazz this past season. Living in Utah I don’t get to watch to many Blazer games but I was tuned in that night for sure. In that game it seemed as if Webster knew that he was going to get the ball and his cuts and moves were much quicker and with a purpose. Of course it helped that he was getting some monster screens from Joel, but time and time again he came off multiple screens and was open for shots which he hit time and time again. The Jazz tried out three or four different defenders and were hopeless in stopping him and rarely even getting a hand in his face.
by mathewsn on Jul 29, 2008 8:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That game
webster was on… If somehow brandon ramps up his off the ball movement like webster did that game, then that would just open up the inside game for the whole team. Webster could pick up a little more of Roy’s game in handling the ball, at least enough to get the rim, which he showed glimpses of last year, but never found that groove to be able to consistently drive against his opponent. When he did, it opened up the whole floor and the confidence to hit those outside shots. Perhaps I am off, but when Webster could get to the basket early, he seemed to have a decent all around game.
Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'. -the shawshank redemption.
by pdxborn on Jul 29, 2008 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reggie Miller the Knick Killer
Cue up some of those classic assassin daggers that Miller drilled against the Knicks in the Garden. Talk about moving without the ball. But could Reggie create off the dribble at all?
by rubycakes on Jul 29, 2008 9:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Korver...
Reggie was definitely the king of moving without the ball. Sure, like rubycakes says above, he couldn’t score off the dribble if you gave him the ball at half court with nobody between him and the rim…
Kyle Korver plays offense the same way. Watch a Jazz game this coming season and check out the way the dude moves without the ball. On each and every possession, that guy is running full steam. And give him the ball with half a step between him and a defender (a guy who’s probably exhausted after chasing the elf around and through screens for a couple of possessions) and he’ll likely drill his shot 3/4 of the time.
Of course, like Reggie, he can’t score with the ball… and there’s that whole “gay elf defense” thing Basketbawful mentions from time to time…
by ElJustino on Jul 29, 2008 10:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Kelso Korver
Notice the similarity

Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 29, 2008 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moving, moving, moving
I’ll date myself now, but one of the things I used to enjoy most about the GREAT KNICKS of their prime was Bill Bradley just going forever. He was the prototypical slow white guy who couldn’t jump but his man had to go through 2-3 picks every play even if the ball wasn’t coming to Bradley. His games against Jack Marin of the Bullets must have left them both exhausted because Marin was the same type of player. And it is tougher to play offense when you’re running through 2-3 picks every time on D. Roy is fun to watch whether he has the ball or not.
by KennyV on Jul 29, 2008 11:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why did he get so fat as a politician?
Oh yeah. Right. He got fat BECAUSE he became a politician.
Winning is everything.
by MT Suit on Jul 29, 2008 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps this Means...
...That Brandon is a “Raider of the Lost Art”?
ha..sorry. Too much sugar coursing through these veins right now.
by SloppyJoe on Jul 29, 2008 11:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Do we have the players to get the ball to Roy?
Aside from Blake, and (hopefully) Bayless, who else is a reliable passer on this team? I remember cringing when anyone but Roy or Blake was handling the ball last year. Travis and Martell in particular need work on their ball-handling abilities. That includes finding the open man. It’s great that Roy is planning to work on that part of his game. Here’s hoping that somebody can find him when he makes his move. Go Blazers!
by hellsfrozenover on Jul 29, 2008 12:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Our small forwards
indeed are lacking the passing game. However our backcourt should be much improved and Oden is willing to pass if he sees the play.
—Dave
by Dave on Jul 29, 2008 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Batum can be a poster-child
for the Blazer who (today) needs your advice on “movement”.
Good post.
Which Blazer coach can you (Dave) put the word in to train Batman?
by spencerbutte on Jul 29, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhh the ole Rip Hamilton offense
Dave I think he is the best example in the league right now. Iverson runs the screens like rip but puts the ball on the floor. Rip just shoots.
I remember the good old days. The Rasta Monsta days.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jul 29, 2008 12:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not a lost art - just too rare
As many people here have mentioned, Rip is one of the best ever at this type of play, so you can’t really call it a lost art. Tony Parker has also started playing more of this type of game when Barry or Ginobli take on PG duties.
When thinking about other players like Rip in previous years, Jeff Hornacek immediately came to mind. He was certainly annoying to play.
All of these guys play(ed) with good passing big men and guards who are a threat to drive and hit the outside shot.
Looking at this list, one thing that is clear is that they don’t have the option to post up or drive because of size or ball handling ability. Thinking about size and offensive mindset, Bayless is really the player who should fill this role, while Roy is the threat with the ball and distributor. I’d also love to see Bayless making Paul, Parker, Deron and Ellis have to chase him in circles and through screens all game.
But hey, if everyone is a threat and working hard, all the better.
by hoopla-pdx on Jul 29, 2008 3:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
hornacek
I a great comparison, consistently great movement on offense and freakishly good timing with his hands on defense, although he always looked awkward to me, he had one amazing stroke from midrange.
Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'. -the shawshank redemption.
by pdxborn on Jul 29, 2008 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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