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How much experience is needed to win a championship?

I was curious about the age of our young team relative to other championship teams, including the tenure with that specific team of their stars when a championship was won.  No, I didn't say we were champions.  Just more mind numbing speculation of the summer months.  However, if we are moving into the "Championship Contention Window", the CCW, within the next 3 seasons, then the numbers are at least, interesting.

I looked at only two simple numbers.  Firstly, what is the average experience in years of the starting five (Career average).  Secondly, what is their tenure, in years with the championship team (Team average)?  Right off the bat this makes for a little confusion as the starting five aren't always exceedingly clear cut.  In some of these cases I used the main five guys, or the five playing the bulk of the minutes, or the five that got the bulk of the playoff time.  Probably a mistake or two factored in as well.

So, fire up the wayback machine for a recap of champions back to the mid-90's, which is approximately when my eye's glazed over looking at stat sheets. 

Year Team, Career avg, Team avg, Notes

2008 Celtics,  8    3.6    - The next Pistons or Heat?  Or dynasty?

2007 Spurs,  8.6    5.2   - Another year or two left in these "old timers"I think.

2006 Heat,  6.6     1.4  - I completely forgot The Glove was on this team.

2005 Spurs,  6.2     4.2  - Duncan is a stud.

2004 Pistons,  6.2     2  - Burn hot, burn quick...and beat up a Shaq-less Kobe. Edit: Shaq probably wants to forget he was on this team too.

2003 Spurs,  6.2    5.2  -  An elder Admiral skews this relatively young team.

2002 Lakers, 8.6     5.8  -  Robert Horry equals success!

2001 Lakers,  8.6     4  -  Rick Fox becomes a household name.

2000 Lakers,  10.4    2.4  -  Phil doesn't need Jordan to win (merely Shaq & Kobe)

1999 Spurs,  9.4     4.6  -  Duncan was a stud right out of the box.

1998 Bulls,  10.6     7.8  -  Jordan retires again, sets course for future Favre.

1997 Bulls,  9.6     6.8  -  Jordan's stomach virus series.

1996 Bulls,  8.6     5.8  -  Remember when Shawn Kemp was really, really good?

Edit: Added these young teams.  Factored into the averages below.

1991 Bulls,  7    4.8     Remember Bill Cartwright's freethrows?

1981 Celtics,   4.6     2.6   -   Rookie McHale, Soph Bird

1980 Lakers,   5.6    2.6   -  Rookie Magic

1977 Blazers,   3     2.6  -  !!!!!!!

Average career experience for all these teams is 7.5 years.

Average team experience for all teams is 4.2 years.

So what does any of this mean?  The numbers for our current Blazers, for the 2009 season will look like this (Oden, LMA, Roy, Webster, Blake)

2009 Blazers, 3.2     2.6

A very young team, as if you didn't know.  There are a few teams in recent history with low team experience averages, and the Heat and Pistons stand out.  In both instances, the career averages are high, and if you were to look at a 12 or 15 man roster average they would probably be even higher, particularly in the case of the Heat with it's veteran heavy bench.  Interestingly, both teams with the lowest team experience numbers are one-and-done's. 

Now project the Blazers out 2 more years, to the 2011 season and assume a starting lineup of Oden, LMA, Roy, Webster and Bayless (Rex if for no other reason than to make this next set of numbers look really cool).

2011 Blazers,  4.4     4..4

At least in recent history, no other team comes close to being this young in terms of career experience, and possibly more notably, it is all "home grown" experience.  This also puts us squarely in the middle of the pack for team experience and way, way low on the career experience end, but there aren't any 14 year Shaqs to skew the number higher either.

I started to list values of the "Big 3" or "Big 2" of championship teams also, but this didn't seem to have much value, e.g. averaging an old Shaq and a young D-Wade gives you two experienced players in their prime.  Or what does 10 years on a team for Paul Pierce and 1 year for Garnett mean?  I dunno. 

So does this team's CCW begin in 3 years?  Is this team really that unique to contend with young guys that are playing for the team that drafted them (not to mention a couple more at the fifth and sixth options)?  How many years are we an effective contender with the same core?  Even the teams that you would call perrennial contenders over an extended period have some changeup in some key role players from year to year while retaining their stars, e.g. Bulls '91-98, Spurs '99-07, '80-88 Lakers.

It's all speculation right now, but it's July, and that's what we do in July.

And hey, it's my first Fanpost, too!

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Congrats on first

one thing: “Burn hot, burn quick…and beat up a Shaq-less Kobe”

2004 L@kers still had Shaq (unless I misunderstood the referrence) as well as washed up Payton and Malone

Still real good FanPost

Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)

by 92wastheyear on Jul 28, 2008 4:34 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Doh!

See what relying on one’s bad memory does for you? I coulda sworn Shaq was gone the year before…before the Malone and Payton circus act came to town.

Like a cow drinking milk, it all comes back to me now.

by lukeyhere on Jul 28, 2008 4:53 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yes, the 03-04 team was the most star-studded L*kers team (at least since the 80s)

And Shaq was on that imploding team, like chronicled in the book I recommended in the book post ;-)

Odenied: Coach, I promise I wasn't running hard ...

by Norsktroll on Jul 28, 2008 5:32 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Interesting analysis

though it argues against our guys winning anytime soon.

I do wish you had added in the Blazers championship team to that list. They were pretty young, as I recall…

Asked his specialty in the kitchen, Oden paused and said, "Hamburger Helper and tuna fish."

by MiledAnimal on Jul 28, 2008 4:56 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Fantastic analysis!!

Bravo! Bravo!

But you know what. It don’t mean diddly squat when it comes to a great coach like Nate and a slew of playahs who got destiny written all over them.

Winning is everything.

by MT Suit on Jul 28, 2008 5:10 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Good Job

But what about the 90/91-91/92-92/93 bulls should have put those teams in just to see. because the bulls were younger when they won thier first three.

by billyjoejack on Jul 28, 2008 6:23 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

You need a lot of experience

You need Tex Winter as your starting point guard.

Winning is everything.

by MT Suit on Jul 28, 2008 7:08 PM PDT reply reply   1 recs

I fall on both sides of this issue

You are right that sometimes we forget that this team is STILL young and has never been in the playoffs. They should be good, but it would be a miracle and a half if they were anywhere near contention this year at least, and probably next year as well. (Maybe only 3/4 of a miracle for the latter.) People who are going way overboard are likely to have to swim back by the end of the season. But for now, more power to them. The splash when they hit the water is cool and gets the rest of us a little wet too.

On the other hand, this team is going to be different. It feels different, smells different, plays different. How many young teams have you seen share the ball like last year’s squad did? How many young teams work to improve their defense, let alone actually managing it like last year’s squad did. There are some darn special players on this team. SO…while it’s utterly unlikely we’ll be seeing parades down Broadway in the next couple seasons I suspect this team will break the mold in terms of eventual age (seemingly) required to win it all.

—Dave

by Dave on Jul 28, 2008 7:42 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Another factor is how few teams collect this talent at a similar age

A confluence of KP’s amazing skill as a GM with huge strokes of luck and bad GMs (McHale, Thomas, Paxson come to mind) along with an owner who buys into the process and a star coach might never have happened before. It has not yet translated into a championship here either so the challenge remains ahead all the more daunting. Good points.

Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."

by lee3022 on Jul 31, 2008 1:24 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Call me Optimist Prime

But reading and lurking here has convinced me, that by this time next year, Broadway will be just recovering from “BlazerMania Championship Hangover”.

by coastrider on Jul 29, 2008 1:24 AM PDT reply reply   1 recs

Me too. That is what being a fan is all about!!!

I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich

by hobobob on Jul 29, 2008 3:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Experience is nice but not an absolute necessity...

As the Celtics proved this year by winning with a bunch of guys who had very minimal playoff experience. Most of the guys on the 94 Rockets didn’t have much playoff seasoning either. Orlando made the finals in ‘95 without winning a playoff game in team history before that. The ‘81 Celtics were led by Cornbread Maxwell and Larry Bird, neither of whom had much NBA experience at all, and minimal playoff experience. There are other examples.

I think the bottom line is that playing good basketball as a team will always trump experience. The ‘04 Lakers, ‘83 Celtics, recent Pistons teams, etc. have all shown us that experience alone won’t win it for you.

by erastus25 on Jul 29, 2008 6:31 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

A few more for good measure...

1991 Bulls, 7 - 4.8 Some guy named Jordan.
1980 Lakers, 5.6 - 2.6 With rookie Magic.
1981 Celtics, 4.6—2.6 With a young Bird and McHale

and…

1977 Blazers, 3 — 2.6 Eerily similar to our current squad?

by lukeyhere on Jul 29, 2008 8:35 AM PDT reply reply   1 recs

Yikes!

We may have a winner …

Live at Doug Fir Lounge on Aug. 7, 9 pm -- YEAR 5000 -- http://www.myspace.com/y5k

by Y5k on Jul 29, 2008 9:59 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Nice job

Well researched.
I’ll settle for W.Conf. Finals for next year, then we’ll start winning the big one every year for the next decade.

Live at Doug Fir Lounge on Aug. 7, 9 pm -- YEAR 5000 -- http://www.myspace.com/y5k

by Y5k on Jul 29, 2008 9:58 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

A question of endurance

I would be more optimisitic about championship possibilities if the season were not so long. The team has the talent and ability to match up with any team for any given game. They proved that playing their last game against the Lakers at the end of last season. But they had trouble in the games before and after coming up with the energy and focus needed to be consistently successful. It seemed that sometime in February they were emotionally ready for the season to be over.

While it is possible that many of the core players will be more successful at pacing themselves this year I’m guessing there will still be some fatigue to overcome. Add to that the three rookies expected to be big contributors will have to go through the same struggle for themselves.

Should the team avoid the injury bug and continue to build chemistry and play to expectations I can see another big jump in the win-loss column and making the playoffs. But with hopes so directly linked to a rookie center who played only one year of college basketball and then missed a whole season, we should not be expecting the parade to come so soon.

by bbfred on Jul 29, 2008 10:23 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Endurance

I agree regarding endurance, a lot can happen in such a long season, and we have plenty of rookies who need to adapt to that. But our amazing depth should really help us in that regard, it could turn out to be a tremendous advantage over most of the league.

by Wotan on Jul 30, 2008 2:52 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I'm sold

we’re making it to the finals this year, and falling short.

Next year we’ll get it though.

I don’t suppose the ‘77 blazers are on your list too?

Ford: Bill, you're claiming victory already? Have you had a "Mission Accomplished" banner printed yet?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624

by ratbastird on Jul 29, 2008 10:27 AM PDT reply reply   0 recs

1975-76

The first season I became a Blazermaniac. I loved
that squad, but the amazing part is how everything
came together for a very young team under the right
coach the following year. Watch out for a repeat.

WHAT IF . . . ?

It's GO time !

by walkoff41 on Jul 29, 2008 2:07 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

I got your back

DAD BLAME YOU COINCAST!!!!!!!!!
BRING BACK THE GOSH DURN BLAZERS TO SOUTHERN OREGON!!!!!!!!!!

by tominhawaii on Jul 29, 2008 3:45 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Zat you in the avatar? Nice pic.

"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar

by annthefan on Jul 30, 2008 1:48 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Wow...I have that same profile

plus …I said hunk o burnin love today too….wassup with that?

Creepy

Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)

by 92wastheyear on Jul 30, 2008 10:26 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I think we're BEdgemates.

Kind of like soulmates only less lame.

by tominhawaii on Jul 30, 2008 4:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yeh except of your insane hatred of children

we are 2 of a kind!!

Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)

by 92wastheyear on Jul 30, 2008 5:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Kids and old people are a burden on society!

Why do my tax dollars gotta pay for someone else’s kid to go to school? It ain’t right!

by tominhawaii on Jul 31, 2008 4:13 AM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

WHAT IF?

Walton stayed healthy?
They kept Moses?
Sabonis came over in 88?

Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)

by 92wastheyear on Jul 29, 2008 5:51 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

What if your mother and father had never met?

An oft-overlooked component in the ‘77 season was the ABA dispersal draft. It changed the balance of power in the NBA. Boston, Milwaukee, Golden State and Baltimore had been in the finals in the previous seasons. But Philly (Dr. J) and Portland (Lucas, Twardzik…had Malone) were helped the most by their ABA “draft choices” (obviously a healthy Walton was a big factor, as well…)

by two4larue on Jul 30, 2008 12:06 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Depends on how smart your players are

Smarter players need less experience.

Blazer Fan

by leeroyjenkins on Jul 29, 2008 2:50 PM PDT reply reply   0 recs

Better coached players as well.

I’ll accept, that in general it’s good to have more experience but fortunately for us it doesn’t seem to be a necessity. :-)

by erastus25 on Jul 29, 2008 3:06 PM PDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs


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