Bayless v. Rose? Choose your own adventure...
by KP Corleone on Jul 25, 2008 11:55 AM PDT
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PrintPretend you're KP. (Yes, it's pointless. No, this will never happen. Yes, this is really long. No, this is not an accurate portrayal of JP. This is just for purposes of debate. Humor me.) You just had lunch with Nelson Mandela, and he asked you for advice on how to win friends and influence people. You got back to your office and sat down to review an advanced regression analysis that projects between 6-9 championships over the next 15 years, depending on which guy(s) you're able to bring in this summer with all that cap space. Your phone rings. It's your assistant.
Assistant: Kevin, John Paxson on the phone. He sounds like he's been drinking.
You: Again? What is it, 3 'o clock Chicago time? Ok, what the heck, put him through.
You pick up the phone.
Paxson: Kevvy Boy! My man. Listen to me. Ok. So. I've got this guy I drafted. Devin Rose. He's good.
You: I know that guy. Big fan of Derrick. What about him?
Paxson: Well, I screwed up, kind of. This guy. Devin. He's from Chicago. Southside. He's got friends. Hundreds of them. Thousands.
You: I'm sure he does. He's a good kid.
Paxson: Yes. He is. But listen. These friends, they want tickets. They want loans. From Darin. From me. They're outside climbling on the Jordan statue right now. They're his posse. I'm scared of posses. It's almost happy hour. I have to do something. I've been watching this other kid you have on NBA.com. What's his name. Gerald. Gerald Bayness. He's good.
You: Yeah, Jerryd's a great kid. We really like him. He's got a chance to be special.
Paxson: That's what I think. Special. So listen. We like Gerald. He doesn't have friends. Not in Chicago. They won't climb statues. We want him.
You: I'm listening.
Paxson: I'll swap 'em. Straight up. Darin for Gerald. Plus a bottle of Jack. Sometime. Anytime. How 'bout today.
You: Well, that's an interesting offer, John. Tell you what. I want to talk it over with my people. Can I call you back?
You hang up and hit the big red button under your desk. Within seconds, four of your top guys slide down firemen's poles into your office. You give them the rundown. You ask for their thoughts.
Top Scout 1: Rose was the number one pick. Oden was the number one pick. I like number one picks. Pritchslap. Do the deal.
Top Scout 2: Rose put the other 11 players at Memphis, and Coach Cal, and Worldwide Wes, on his rather amazingly strong back and carried them kicking and screaming through the NCAA tourney. They almost won. I cried during One Shining Moment. It was magical. Do the deal.
Top Scout 3: Rose is legit. He's a pass first point guard with upside. He has nuclear athleticism. He's the next Chris Paul, with the size of LeBron James. His wingspan makes me think that, in time, he may actually learn to fly. Do the deal.
Top Scout 4: Listen. I was out drinking at lunch, too. But hear me out. Isn't it possible Rose got a little overrated during that tournament run? Weren't his stats pretty similar to Bayless's stats? Didn't he play for a much better team, with elite talent surrounding him, against mostly inferior athletes? Rose averaged 4.7 assists per game, Jerryd 4.0, with subpar teammates, in a superior conference. Jerryd had more turnovers, but he scored more.
Top Scout 1: Be quiet. You're an idiot. Go sober up.
Top Scout 4: Hold on just one second. Wasn't Jeryyd's situation at Arizona pretty much a worst case scenario? Didn't Rose look pretty ordinary in a mock NBA environment in Orlando? Didn't Jerryyd look pretty incredible in Vegas?
Top Scout 2: It's summer league!
Top Scout 3: Marco Belinelli! Nate Robinson! Marcus Banks!
Top Scout 4: I'm just saying Rose and Bayless didn't look that far apart in college. Rose was the concensus number two prospect, Jerryd the concensus number four. Jerryd slid a bit, yes, with our help. That was a windfall. But here's my point: given how close they looked in college, and how dramatically far apart they looked in summer league, doesn't that tilt the balance? Isn't Jerryd a better shooter? Won't he fit in nicely with Brandon? Are we ready to waive goodbye to the Bayless face? Is there such a thing as the Rose face? I don't want to find out. Maybe I'm insane. Don't do the deal.
Your assistant pokes her head in.
Assistant: Paxson's on the line again. He says he's going to trade Rose to an Italian league team for a Lamborghini if you don't pull the trigger right now.
You: Go ahead and put him through...
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KP makes that deal in a heatbeat
and does a little jig. Paxson gets fired on the spot.
Boomshakalaka
by jksnake99 on Jul 25, 2008 12:01 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Rose in the Rose Garden?
at the helm of a dynasty?
Every day of the week.
Bayless is good, no doubt, but Rose is a true baller. He almost won me $500 until a bunch of his stupid @$$ teammates blew it and missed free throw after free throw.
It’s like the Schonz says… You’ve Got To Make Your Free Throws.
Got BEdge?
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jul 25, 2008 12:07 PM PDT reply actions
If I recall...
Rose missed a pretty important free throw himself!
Look…. Rose is over-hyped and Scout 4 knew what he was talking about.
by CaptainSexyJacob on Jul 25, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You beat me to it!
Yup. No sense in throwing his thugmates under the bus when he’s guilty of the same crime: C-H-O-K-I-N-G.
As for the trade I hang on to Bayless but only because I’ve seen nothing of Rose since the NCAA tourney to convince me he’s the better player.
That may change over time but I tend to go with what I see and so far it’s been Bayless that looks like the pick of the guard litter in that draft, especially when it comes to that stone-cold killer instinct that separates good players from champions.
"Life is a meaningless sequence of events in between Blazer championships"
by broggerboy19 on Jul 25, 2008 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
"thugmates?"
Seriously?
Rose did miss a key FT but that pales in comparison to taking your team within inches of a title as a Frosh PG.
“As for the trade I hang on to Bayless but only because I’ve seen nothing of Rose since the NCAA tourney to convince me he’s the better player.” Might that be because there haven’t been any games of meaning since the NCAA tourney?
If you insist, though, a couple choice comments from the US National Team practices:
Dwight Howard: “Those guys have bright futures. We saw a lot of good things from Derrick Rose today. His quickness, his explosion … he’s going to be good. ”
http://www.nba.com/news/inside_presence.html
From and NBA.com blog: “Derrick Rose, Chicago’s No. 1 pick who only played two games in the Orlando Pro Summer League before bowing out with tendonitis has been strong all week, especially at using his handle to get into the lane and finish around the rim. The Grizzlies’ O.J. Mayo has also shined, but primarily at shooting the ball from the outside. I joked with NBA Entertainment producer Andy Thompson last night that if you could combine their games they’d be unstoppable. "They’d be Chris Paul," Thompson quipped. ”
http://my.nba.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5800009666
Boomshakalaka
Stone-cold killer instinct that separate good players from champions
My sentiments exactly. Even if you can’t know he’s that kind of player at this point, even the possibility is something you have to hold on to.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
Speaking of C-H-O-K-I-N-G....
Bayless has shown that he does just the opposite
--
by CaptainSexyJacob on Jul 25, 2008 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
summer league
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
Jksnake, did you watch summer league? Especially the Suns game? My guess is no.
Obviously it wasn’t the NBA finals, but Bayless had this look in his eye down the strech that made it obvious that he has the potential (as distinguished from being there already) to be a clutch guy. He does not like to lose. If anything, the fact that it was summer league was even more encouraging as far as he competitiveness is concerned – how many guys give a crap whether they win or lose a meaningless summer league game?
Bayless gave a crap. And then some. If anything, I think there should be some concern that, in an actual NBA game, much less the playoffs, his head might actually explode from sheer intensity. This could also work against him (as it sometimes does against Garnett), but in any event, it’s fun as hell to watch.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
I watched it...
It was a blast to watch and I was very impressed. Its summer league. Qyntel Woods was a summer league MVP.
Boomshakalaka
yes and Qyntel Woods had tons of talent he was just a idiot who'd rather smoke pot and start dog fights....
than play basketball. He had talent, he wasted it. Before he was drafted he was a projected lottery pick who slipped because he got caught smoking weed. People knew he had talent they just didn’t want to take the risk.
(See my post below)
KU against Arizona and KU against Memphis
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
I know he missed one late...
but weren’t there like 6 other misses in the last 5 minutes by other guys?
Got BEdge?
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jul 25, 2008 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions
It was that CDR play that killed me...
there’s like a minute to go, it’s a 2 on 1, and instead of doing the wise thing and pulling it out to kill clock OR even passing to the 3rd guy trailing the play (who would’ve had an easy dunk or layup), that selfish CDR has to force it to the rim, only to totally blow the layup and then brick the two free throws.
That killed me. That’s when I knew I was losing the pool.
I will forever root against CDR for ruining what would’ve been one of the finest days in my gambling history.
Got BEdge?
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jul 25, 2008 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Number 1. Rec
Very creative. I enjoyed that. One thing Im a little irritated about, why is the assistant a woman? ( you dont really have to answer that)
Ok, a couple questions I would ask (I of course am KP= katarina pritchard btw)
q. Does DRose fit our culture?
a. Well sure, he is a nice boy, but he is used to being ‘the man” ... he will have difficulty coming off the bench THIRD STRING and having to EARN the pg spot.
q. Do we need another “nice boy”?
a. Yes and we need Jerryd’s fire and ‘bayless face’ b/c honestly everyone on our team is no where near aggressive enough..ok except Joel but he’s the exception.
q. Is trading for DRose conceding to the notion that I made a mistake in getting Bayless?
a. OH CRAP … Yes it is…
NO go JPax No go..
Sophia
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
no its not (conceding that you made a mistake)
KP didn’t have the chance to get Rose. Bayless was the best player it was realistic for KP to get. Believe me, if he’d been able to get Rose without giving up the farm, he would have done it.
Boomshakalaka
Except KP has said his method
is to do his homework and go get the player he wants.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
to the last q.
I disagree. We never had a shot at D-Rose, so in a sense JB was the best we could do with what we had. If we had the #1 pick in the draft, we would have taken D-Rose in a heartbeat. I’ll agree that JB is looking pretty fly in the #4 jersey, and tore it up with PetKo in summer league, but Rose is Rose.
As for the 1st q, why is Rose a nice boy? He was an assassin in Memphis, I mean on the court this guy really tore it up. That answers the 2nd q. Also, JB was the man at Arizona. The same question of whether he fits our culture applies.
Andy Roddick has the most wimbledon titles in the world. He just hides them in Federer's trophy case
by premthegrem on Jul 25, 2008 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions
He's a nice boy as opposed to Beasley, who has...character issues..LOL
well according to the media. I of course was completely joking that entire post, but it seems as if some valid points that I disagree with have been made.
Who knows whether or not we have a shot at Rose. IHe is a great PG and does carry the ‘pure pg’ title and is amongst what, 2 of them in this whole draft? So for that , perhaps Chicago was wanting to use that #1 to obtain some other pieces to fill up some other holes. I dont know, but it is not that far fetched in my mind, epecially w/ KP as gm. Of course if we had the #1 pic we would take Rose, however, that does not mean that w/ the 13th and 5000 2nd rounders we couldnt have tried to package something to get him.
JB was the man at Arizona, however, not in the way in which Rose was w/ Memphis. As we all know, he brought them to the championship game. He was THE MAN that ran the show. He was their superstar. JB was the man, but didn’t have that kind of status among the media at least.
-Sophia
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
the price for Rose would have been...(and still would be)
... on the order of Aldridge+Rudy or at least Aldridge+Webster.
Boomshakalaka
LA + Webster?
Paxson would laugh at that. LA + Rudy or Bayless, and I think he makes the move. Which would never happen – Blazers would never make either move.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 25, 2008 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
LMA and Bayless?
I would have to think that would get it done, or at least damn close.
If I were KP, no way I’d move LMA and Bayless for Rose. Way too steep.
Witty Unpredictable Talent and Natural Game
Of course that WOULD
be admitting a mistake.
Ford: Bill, you're claiming victory already? Have you had a "Mission Accomplished" banner printed yet?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624
If Aldridge were included in a package back to Chicago...
Paxson basically owns up that he blew it in trading him in the first place.
Ego > Logic, therefore, he wouldn’t pull the trigger on that.
Got BEdge?
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jul 25, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Paxon trades out of the #1 spot
Paxon’s house gets burned down by an angry Chi-town mob.
No way he would have traded down to #13 – unless we offered a package of Roy and Oden for Gordon and Noah and the #1 ;-)
Coach, I promise I wasn't running hard ...
interesting.....
but rose had CDR….and from what i saw in the tourney, CDR shouldered the scoring load. Drose tried to, but couldnt. most of the time defferring to CDR. he didnt have that killer instinct, and in the end, didnt have enough to get it done….
Jbizzle didnt have a CDR..but he did post some pretty impressive numbers..
honestly, rose never impressed me as much as he did every one else. Westbrook, from what i saw in the tourney, completely shut him down….good thing dorsey shut down kevin love, and CDR carried the scoring load or Drose wouldnt have made it to the finals and got all this hype…from watching him, I always thought in the NBA he’s gonna be good. but not great…..his highschool state finals one year, he scored two points and his team lost. what kind of a leader is that?...obviously he’s matured, but still…
Sophia, i appreciate your posts..they’re well thought out and usually right on… seems like youre pretty high on rose, along with a bunch of other people…but really, i look at his #1 overall selection as an overreaction to Chris Paul….he is not chris paul….paul posted 62 in one of his highschool games. Derrick rose could never do that.. not ever….
The most talented player in this draft is Beasly…he has all the makings of another Charles Barkley…..I’m sure KP realized this…and although the pg position is our spot of need…had he been blessed with the first pick, he still would have taken the best player available..that being beasly….....of course all this is just what ifs, but i wanted to bring some perspective to the table…
also remmember the only other guy drafted #1 in the last ten years, shorter than 6’7 was allen iverson. He was posting near thirty a game at the time…...Derrick rose is no allen iverson. and as a point guard, he is marginally good…the jury is still out on him…..
one thing i do know, Jerryd Bayless can score, and he is fearless…two traits we lost in giving up Jerryd jack…not sure i wouldnt make the trade. probly not at this point..but ive never been much of a derrick rose guy…
by BroyTheTruth on Jul 25, 2008 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
o yea, chicago should have taken beasly...
i feel like im living in crazy world if no one else realizes this
by BroyTheTruth on Jul 25, 2008 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
this I sort of agree with
I think Beasley is the most gifted player in the class… whether he’s the best fit for the Bulls is debatable.
Boomshakalaka
Yeah
Chicago could have finally addressed their low post scoring needs and passed up on it. I mean I know BPA and all, but Beasley is pretty close to Rose potential wise and is probably more NBA ready RIGHT now. It’s not like Heinrich is terrible or anything, he’s pretty damn solid. I don’t know, maybe I’m just saying this because I don’t believe Joakim Noah will be their answer in the low post.
Dead Finks Don't Talk
But dead finks don't talk too well
They've got a shaky sense of diction
It's not so much a living hell
It's just a dying fiction
WORD UP. STAY. FRESCO.
beasly easily surpasses rose potential wise....
just look at the two of them standing next to one another.. which looks more intimidating?....
i’d pick up beasly in a pick up game every time before Drose
by BroyTheTruth on Jul 26, 2008 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd pick Ben Wallace before CP3 too, based on appearance
But that wouldn’t make it right
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
yeah Rose stunk in HS
Only averaged 25, 9 and 9 and had 29, 9 and 8 as he led his team over Oak Hill (Oak Hill’s only loss that year). I wonder how all the hype started. I guess it was just the NCAA tourney.
You are correct- Westbrook shut him down- held him to 25 pts, 9 rebounds and 4 assists. What a bum. Howe he was the #1 pick I will never understand.
Seriously, want any other ridiculous statements that can be proved wrong with just a cursory glance at facts?
Boomshakalaka
links:
UCLA-Memphis box score: http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=284000062
Bio, including HS numbers: http://gotigersgo.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/rose_derrick00.html
Also, its true that he had two points in an HS title game, but he had 7 boads and 8 dimes and his team WON (their 2nd straight title).
Doing research= good
Making up things=bad.
Boomshakalaka
Westbrook didn't guard Rose
Worst decision Howland has ever made since he started coaching. Collison tried to guard Rose and wasn’t athletic enough, and yeah, Rose owned him. UCLA should’ve beat Memphis, and that was the move that lost it. I was absolutely amazed – I had just assumed Westbrook – the one guy in the NCAAs (other than Mayo) perfectly suited to guard Rose – would D him up.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 26, 2008 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
he did for a little, and was succesful at it
by BroyTheTruth on Jul 26, 2008 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions
not going to man up and apologize for blatantly...
... making things up (in regards to his HS game) and instead trying to salvage your comment about Rose D-ing up Westbrook? Pretty pathetic dude. Lots of us have said incorrect things on this site, but you should at least acknowledge your mistake.
Boomshakalaka
with the hs comment, im just refferring to what ive read elsewhere
i know i saw westbrook lock him up, whenever he was on him….maybe im mistaken that his team lost the state finals, but two points in a big game is nothing to get excited over…
you must be rediculously high on rose….. enough to get your panties in a twist, and call me pathetic for suggesting otherwise…..
never subscribed to name calling…just makes people look bad.
anyway, hope life is good with you always needing to be right…..
you are informed, but maybe just take a chill pill….we’re all on the same page here
by BroyTheTruth on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Snap!
That said, I think the Bulls should have taken Beasle-Bailey more to fit their needs. Trade down to the 2 or whatever. That matchup with Wade and Rose versus Roy and Bayless would be fun to watch.
I want to be tucked in by Greg Oden and have him tell us stories about the old days.
That Snap! below was for this comment BTW.
I want to be tucked in by Greg Oden and have him tell us stories about the old days.
Why is everyone replying to that comment way up there and still going off onto another topic?
Anyway, Snake, Snap!!!
I want to be tucked in by Greg Oden and have him tell us stories about the old days.
I though Budinger was the man
in Arizona. He was certainly the player who could hurt you the most.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
One of the scouts was female!
You just couldn’t tell from the gender neutral language. I flipped a coin on the assistant.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 25, 2008 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
HAHA
Yes I am.. you found me out :)
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
I actually have spoken with KP's assistant
and it turns out she was a woman…..and she wouldn’t tell me who they were picking (this was before the draft).
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
The only way I don't do this deal,
is if it is offered at the end of this year, and we find out that Rose is a sub .800 FT shooter. That is one area that Bayless really impressed me with, and Rose wasn’t that impressive against Kansas. But again, you have to look at the big picture. If Rose is CP 2.0, then Bayless is Gilbert Arenas 2.0. I would much rather have CP.
Andy Roddick has the most wimbledon titles in the world. He just hides them in Federer's trophy case
i think fearless will be more like
ai
"Who do the historians think (t)he best crop of rookies on one team[up until now] is?"
---sothern oregon
"I'd have to go with the 12 disciples.... They pretty much turned the world upside down in short order......."
---prezofdeath
".....Judas was a big bust, he was the Darko of that class."
---RoyDrexler
could you see fearless doing this?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI
You’ve prolly seen it already, but it’s still so funny.
Andy Roddick has the most wimbledon titles in the world. He just hides them in Federer's trophy case
by premthegrem on Jul 25, 2008 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions
No,
I promise that I only was thinking of iversons game on the court, and can not envision fearless suffering iversons particular brand of retardedness off the court.
(head down on bended knees)
Dear Kevy, please forgive me for my blasphomous ways. Ah-spam.
"Who do the historians think (t)he best crop of rookies on one team[up until now] is?"
---sothern oregon
"I'd have to go with the 12 disciples.... They pretty much turned the world upside down in short order......."
---prezofdeath
".....Judas was a big bust, he was the Darko of that class."
---RoyDrexler
AI
Is a wimp on D and too cheap to spend money on tats or bling.Thanks for the sass,
by southern oregon on Jul 25, 2008 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions
this was fun
"Who do the historians think (t)he best crop of rookies on one team[up until now] is?"
---sothern oregon
"I'd have to go with the 12 disciples.... They pretty much turned the world upside down in short order......."
---prezofdeath
".....Judas was a big bust, he was the Darko of that class."
---RoyDrexler
Entertaining post
Completely wrong on the analysis though. If you are arguing Bayless is a better prospect than Derrick Rose, your homerism has formed a cataract over your eyes.
Seriously.
1. Are you serious about the hometown bit? I mean he hasn’t even played in the NBA yet, I wouldn’t start making assumptions about he handles himself off the court yet. This is like other fans saying Bayless is selfish because he didn’t pass the ball enough in summer league.
2. Stats don’t mean anything in college, it’s the potential to achieve those same (or greater) stats in the NBA that matters.
Now let’s breakdown why Rose is a better prospect than Bayless.
1. He’s taller and longer
2. He has tremendous court vision (like a Kidd or Paul) Bayless doesn’t have this
3. He is just as athletic and quick as Bayless
4. He was a better defender in college, with the ability to lock down both guard positions and the length to even bother small forwards
5. He played on a winning team
6. He can finish with either hand, and is really, really, good running the break
Really if you are looking for a real point guard Rose is the far better option. You really can’t tell me if you had the first pick in the draft you would be thinking Bayless. He’s a good player too, but he’s more of SG than a PG, and doesn’t have close to the point guard skills Rose already possesses.
Dead Finks Don't Talk
But dead finks don't talk too well
They've got a shaky sense of diction
It's not so much a living hell
It's just a dying fiction
WORD UP. STAY. FRESCO.
Agreed on most of your points.
No, didn’t mean the hometown thing as a knock on DRose at all. Just trying to make up an excuse why Paxson would do this (along with a bit of the bourbon).
I think most of your checks in the “pros” column are valid. I just think they’re outweighed by Bayless’s pros. Just my personal take after watching summer league, and watching Rose all year.
I’m actually not a homer. Not even a legit Blazers fan. Big fan of KP, like Roy a lot, but I’m from Ohio – came as a package deal with Oden. This will be my first year on the wagon.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 25, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Welcome aboard
Keep your hands in the vehicle at all times
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
If Augustin or Westbrook had slipped to us
1. KP would have said “that’s the player we wanted”. Book it. Maybe he really wanted Bayless more than the other two, maybe he was the steal of the draft looking back in a year or two. But our management would have sold every good PG that slipped like the real deal.
2. Rose was the #1 talent in this draft, hands down. Every GM winning the draft would have taken him (at least if he was looking remotely for a guard). Every scout watching his games or even just highlight reels would have taken him. KP would have taken him. Listen to the interviews with him, our scouts, etc.: “There are two exceptional players in this draft, and then some…”
And one of these two exceptional players goofed around in Orlando and talked about the beach when asked what he likes about Miami. The Heat even thought about trading down for Mayo instead of taking Beasley because short term he will be the most productive rookie (of this draft) but long term he just isn’t focused enough on basketball and won’t develop into the team leader Rose will be in three years. Nobody thought about trading down for Bayless.
3. Really nice job with the mock telephone call and scouting meet.
Coach, I promise I wasn't running hard ...
"Irrational Exuberance" (thanks Alan for the term)
And thank you Dheepan, Jsnake99, Norsktrollf and a couple others for some clear rational thinking.
The severe cases of homoritis resulting in our players being built up beyond logic is described perfectly with Greenspan’s words.
I remember telling him how impressed I was with a player during summer league. In Avery's unique voice, he replied, "Marc, it's summer league." I
Take Rose
He’ll like having two gardens named after him. That makes him a fit.
Ford: Bill, you're claiming victory already? Have you had a "Mission Accomplished" banner printed yet?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624
Trade Bayless for Rose
Do I do this? I honestly don’t know and would need to see the book on them.
I DO believe that Rose became overrated.
I DO believe that Bayless was extremely underrated.
KP stated there were two special players in the draft. If Rose is one of those players, then I do it. But… what if Bayless was one of them? Jordan was what… six in the draft? Just because you’re picked 1 and 2 doesn’t mean you’re the special player.
Ford: Bill, you're claiming victory already? Have you had a "Mission Accomplished" banner printed yet?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624
Jordan was...
third in the draft, behind Olajuwon and the infamous B-word (wont say it here).
If you're paddling upstream in a canoe and a wheel falls off, how many pancakes fit in a doghouse? None! Ice cream has no bones!
ah, okay
not as bad as I thought then. For some reason I thought he was sixth.
Ford: Bill, you're claiming victory already? Have you had a "Mission Accomplished" banner printed yet?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624
Get thee back to Blazer History class, Ratty
You are now on double secret probabtion…..next you will be claiming that Clyde was drafted 13th when he obviously was drafted 14th
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought he was drafted 1st
Dang… i just out and out flunk.
I admit… i’m a closet Goof..y fan.
Ford: Bill, you're claiming victory already? Have you had a "Mission Accomplished" banner printed yet?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624
lol
I always have to look that stuff up
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Hah!
If he was drafted sixth then we’d have three other teams to share our collective misery with.
As it stands, we suffer alone.
"Life is a meaningless sequence of events in between Blazer championships"
by broggerboy19 on Jul 25, 2008 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
This poll is stunning
Over a third of the people here would rather have Bayless than Rose. I’m stunned. The homerism on this site has reached a new level. Dheepan, does this merit the Isiah award?
ratbastird, KP also said in that same interview, “I bet you can guess which two,” clearly implying that he agreed with the general opinion that Beasley and Rose were the two special players in the draft.
Boomshakalaka
I could also guess if given enough guesses
KP tends to be rather sly. I would want to evaluate. I said Bayless to be contrary above, but I’d want a peek in that KP book or at least to watch these guys in some college games.
Ford: Bill, you're claiming victory already? Have you had a "Mission Accomplished" banner printed yet?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624
At least try to make an argument
Dheepan made legit points above. But in general, most people think Rose is better because most other people think Rose is better. Which doesn’t make it wrong, it’s just part of the hype machine. I don’t think there would be any debate among scouts, after summer league, that Bayless is more ready to make an impact this year. If you’re sticking with Rose, it’s because Bayless is a combo, Rose is (somehow) a “pure point guard,” and you like his upside down the road.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 25, 2008 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
summer league means nothing
by your logic Marco Bellinelli>Greg Oden.
“But in general, most people think Rose is better because most other people think Rose is better.” Partly true. I’m not a professional scout or talent evaluator, so I tend to listen to people who are.
Boomshakalaka
POssibly
one reason Jordan was passed over by other teams?
I don’t believe the masses, hence the need for me to see KP’s book. What if there was something in there that said “yes, rose is a little bit better and always will be, but his style doesn’t match up with what we’ve built”?
When talent is equal or close enough (which would vary) then you look at need. I feel we could have had DJ if we wanted him, and we did. Yet, we snagged bayless. Bayless is not a pass first guard, but DJ is. This makes me think that KP WANTED the style of play that Bayless bring.
Not enough data as I didn’t even see college games. I did like what I saw at summer league, and it wasn’t the scoring, but the hunger and leadership.
Ford: Bill, you're claiming victory already? Have you had a "Mission Accomplished" banner printed yet?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624
Apples and oranges
I’m not saying anybody who plays well in the summer league is better than anyone who doesn’t. Guys who jack threes are always going to better in summer league, and centers who are a little foul-prone are going to struggle (because the refs call everything). I’m not sold on Bayless just because he had a good summer league. I’m sold on him because I watched him and just got the general impression he’s (a) not to be messed with and (b) absolutely ridiculous as a combination of speed, quickness, tenacity, and skill.
Does any of that mean he can play point? Nope. Maybe he’ll be a Monta Ellis or Louis Williams type guy off the bench, as a scoring spark. But it does mean he can play. At this point, nobody can say that about Rose. He’ll probably be a good NBA point guard. But he’s not Chris Paul or Deron Williams. Not now, and not compared to those guys when they were coming out of school.
Think about it – how could DRose not have been a great college PG? He’s too athletic. It’s just not fair. But is that enough in the NBA? Definitely not…
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 25, 2008 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions
debate is fun
by the way… welcome.
Also… love the bayless 2.0 quote.
Ford: Bill, you're claiming victory already? Have you had a "Mission Accomplished" banner printed yet?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624
another false statement
“Guys who jack threes are always going to better in summer league, and centers who are a little foul-prone are going to struggle (because the refs call everything).”
Dwight Howard averaged 19 and 7.5 in summer league, right out of HS (a year younger than Greg). Greg averaged as many fouls as points.
http://www.dwighthoward.com/dwighthoward072605.htm
Does this mean Greg will be a bust? Of course not. Summer League means nothing. Conclusions should never be drawn from it.
Boomshakalaka
D-Ho isn't foul prone
SVG has to publicly rip him just to get him to play a little D. Obviously, all centers aren’t foul prone – but GO does (and did in college – trust me) have a tendency to play D with his arms rather than moving laterally. He’s just used to blocking everything, anyway, and plus he always had Conley Ding up on the perimeter.
The laws of gravity and science are not suspended in summer league – it’s like high school, college, the NCAA tournament, workouts, and everything else. It’s one piece of the puzzle. But you can’t just dismiss it out of hand based on the logic that, if guy X did Y in summer league, and didn’t do Y in the regular season, summer league means nothing. The same could easily be said about college bball – why is the Stache struggling in the league? Why hasn’t Melo’s will to win translated from Syracuse to Denver?
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
You're being pretty unfair to D-Ho.
True, SVG called him out after a week-long defensive slump, but to characterize D-Ho as someone who is A) not foul-prone and B) a lackadaisical defender more or less tells me you didn’t see him play much last year. The guy opened the season with an 8 block game, and-as someone who owned him in a fantasy league-his fouls were a constant problem.
WWSBD?
TRADE 4 THE STACHE!
by nightbluefruit on Jul 25, 2008 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Touche
Didn’t see much of the Magic last year, true
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
Don't you think
The NCAA tourney is overemphasized sometimes, just a little bit? And didn’t Rose benefit a lot from CP3 and D Williams’ success? And maybe he’s not quite as pure a PG as everyone thinks?
I remember watching him vs. USC, and Mayo absolutely iced him. You wouldn’t have thought he was first team all conference USA, much less the number one pick. I got the feeling he relies quite a bit on being athletically superior to just about everyone else he ever plays – until now.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
yeah, Mayo iced him
to the tune of 6-20 from the field.
http://gotigersgo.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2007-2008/mem1204.html
I absolutely agree that the NCAA tourney is overemphasized. Memphis played a mighty strong non-conference schedule though. Rose played plenty of games against good teams.
College numbers aren’t everything- and you bring up some good case-in-points. They are a much bigger piece of the puzzle than summer league though (where the games don’t matter whatsoever).
I should mention, though, that Rose was playing hurt (knee tendinitis) during summer league, so that has to be taken into account if you are going to analyze summer league (which I don’t recommend).
Boomshakalaka
I mean iced him on D
Mayo shut Rose down (never been a fan of Mayo on offense – 6 for 20 was probably par for the course for him), because Rose didn’t have his usual quickness advantage. Granted, they played a triangle and two on Rose and CDR – which was brilliant, by the way – but Rose should’ve killed that by going by Mayo, drawing two guys, and finding somebody wide open. He couldn’t penetrate at all.
Rose’s summer league stink-bomb was dramatic enough that some of the people-who-know (like David Thorpe, for instance) immediately said the Bulls have to keep KH for a year and let Rose come off the bench to develop. But yeah, I agree, certainly it’s possible the knee was holding him back. It had to be a factor.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
and Thorpe still has Rose ranked ahead of Bayless
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/rookies/rankings
Boomshakalaka
Read his descriptions though
His rankings are based on likelihood for ROY, which is based on projected playing time. So guys who will get minutes are ranked higher. He doesn’t seem to view summer league as insignificant, by any means, though.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
Here's what Thorpe says about them
Rose:
Wish I could have seen him more - and healthier - in Orlando. I still think he’ll be an excellent lead guard who will make things happen for his teammates on both ends of the floor. Looked to push the ball more on Tuesday, which is his strength. But his poor shooting skills hurt his overall game a great deal.
Looked tentative and a bit sluggish early. Struggled using ball-screens, as he did not change speeds and attack the opposing big. But he showed flashes of amazing speed and demonstrated that his strong upper body will give other guards problems.
Bayless:
Dynamite as an attack man, and his shooting ability makes him even tougher to defend. He craves contact and paint drives, which is unique for guards. He’s ready to contribute off the bench for Portland, but he might get caught behind veterans at the start of the season. The best rookie combo guard of the summer.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
he gave beasly the nod over oden?
get a rope
"I was playing rock band with my wife and a four year old girl, after U of H got their booty handed to them in the Sugar Bowl. My wife was playing the drums, and the little girl and I were on the couch behind her. I was just joking and pointed at my wife and whispered, "She’s a bed wetter." The little girl smile real big and said, "So am I." That really wasn’t the reaction I was going for so I just said, "All right, high five." Then she high fived me and I never joked about bed wetting again." ---tominhawii
Only because Beasley is a stats fiend
And thus arguably more likely to win ROY. He’s not saying he’ll contribute more to the bottom line.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
JL maybe Isaiah but we also decided on this I <3 Nic
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
Hopeful we all will be humming killer songs for Jerryd for many,many years
I’m thinking Nicolas needs some tunes: Would “Dance Me to the End of Love” (Madeleine Peyroux ) and “Girl, I Want to Lay You Down” by ALO appeal to Lady Fans?
Cave Canem!
songs for jerryd
you like huey lewis and the news?
"I was playing rock band with my wife and a four year old girl, after U of H got their booty handed to them in the Sugar Bowl. My wife was playing the drums, and the little girl and I were on the couch behind her. I was just joking and pointed at my wife and whispered, "She’s a bed wetter." The little girl smile real big and said, "So am I." That really wasn’t the reaction I was going for so I just said, "All right, high five." Then she high fived me and I never joked about bed wetting again." ---tominhawii
somhow
that was creeper, with him looking at her and her looking at him. hes supposed to be her dad? (shiver)
"I was playing rock band with my wife and a four year old girl, after U of H got their booty handed to them in the Sugar Bowl. My wife was playing the drums, and the little girl and I were on the couch behind her. I was just joking and pointed at my wife and whispered, "She’s a bed wetter." The little girl smile real big and said, "So am I." That really wasn’t the reaction I was going for so I just said, "All right, high five." Then she high fived me and I never joked about bed wetting again." ---tominhawii
What about "French will be French" By Queen.
It’s not easy love, but you’ve got French you can trust,
French will be French,
When you’re in need of love they give you care and attention,
French will be French,
When you’re through with life and all hope is lost,
Hold out your hand cos French will be French right till the end
The Midnight Rambler
I am a huge Queen fan
but have never heard that one before
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Lol
This vintage of Queen was never that big in the States…...but they stayed mega big in Europe. Good song.
(psst… Amlmart….dude the lyrics say “Friends will be Friends….not French will be French. )
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
This is one of my favs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXlumq7b498
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
"Friends will be Friends"?. It is nonsense...
“French will be French” on the other hand…
The Midnight Rambler
Actually this is better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEoeEDXZTdk&feature=related
Same song better version
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Good one.
I like a lot of their songs but I don´t like the last albums. Probably my favorite is “under pressure” with David Bowie, you know for sure.
The Midnight Rambler
Can we please stop talking about anyone named Bowie on these here Blazer forums
It’s giving me nightmares.
Darius Miles found me.
Amen
lol…..He will henceforth refered to as the Ziggy Stardust
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Neither Bowie nor Sam because are scaring while your name say death?.
Samtimes Bowiener…
The Midnight Rambler
Of course.
Night at the Opera was my fav album….but News of the World and The Game were also fantastic
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
When I was a kid
they had a foul called palming the ball but that was along time ago in a different galaxy.
by southern oregon on Jul 25, 2008 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I stand corrected
Under the current NBA regs palming and traveling violations but Stern Himself has made it clear that this is BS
by southern oregon on Jul 26, 2008 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Poll response
Right or wrong I think what your seeing in that poll has more to do with Bayless’ stellar performance in summer league than on homerism. People may be getting carried away a little bit based on summer league, but then again…he did look pretty damn good.
"I’m stunned. The homerism on this site has reached a new level."
Maybe. But the “Incredulous response to other fans for their differing opinion and implying everyone else is stupid and blinded by homerism”-ism isn’t any better. It is arrogance that has to ascribe differing opinions to some sort of lack of intelligence or extreme bias (e.g. homerism).
Just sayin’—let people prefer who they prefer, without implying they are all stupid/biased while you yourself are right and can see through it all.
by TimG on Jul 25, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
ok but...
... I didn’t see anyone on here before the draft saying the Bayless was the #1 guard in the draft.
Now that he’s a Blazer though, nearly half of BE is willing to overlook the knowledge that summer league means zilch and tell themselves that KP got someone worthy of the #1 pick (and Diogu) for McBob, Jack and #13.
Look, I loved the move to get T-Rex. He easily could have been the Sonics pick at #4. KP isn’t a god though, nor did he use Jedi mind tricks on every other GM in the league.
Boomshakalaka
Yeah, actually I agree with you 100%
That Rose is the better prospect. But, I have (in such a short time) already begun to really like Bayless, and think he will bring a lot of extremely valuable things to the team (like that ruthless attacker mentality) that even many other better prospects overall may not bring. Now, I would still do this trade… but I can see where some might not want to.
Anyway, I think sometimes a lot of people do over value players (as most fans do) on this site, so then there are a few of us who, I think, overreact, and go off about not being homers, and we can end up getting really caught up in avoiding being or appearing to be homers, and attacking anything else that looks like homerism. It sometimes comes across as really arrogant and insulting though.
And I agree that KP did not use jedi mind tricks, just a lot of scouting, preparation, and some opportunity. Luckily, that’s all a good GM needs.
+1
My point is certainly not that it’s crazy to continue to think Rose is a better prospect. (That’s why I included so much alcohol in the hypo!)
But, at the same time, I think it’s a little shortsighted to suggest that it’s completely ridiculous for anyone to think that the number 4 prospect in the draft leap-frogged the number 2 prospect based on a few “meaningless” summer league games. That can happen. The gap between these guys going into the draft wasn’t as dramatic as it was portrayed (including how it was portrayed by KP – who had a master plan behind making the gap look wider than it was). Does that mean Bayless is better? Not necessarily. But it does mean it’s not a ridiculous idea. It’s not like we’re talking about a second round pick overtaking a lottery pick here – these guys were pretty close already.
As I said above, too, there’s no “homer” aspect contributing to my take on this. I’ve never been a Blazers fan. I like KP a lot, I’ve liked Roy since college, but the real reason I’m interested in this team is Oden. I’m from Columbus, saw every game he played at OSU, and will always root for him after he came back and played half the season with one hand (and still dominated). Not a lot of guys would be willing (or able) to do that.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 26, 2008 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah, seriously, i dont see any homerism or overreaction in this post
mario chalmers (a 2nd round pick) outplayed rose in summer league, so he must also be better. and they even played against each other and chalmers just dominated. there’s no way rose is going to be a good player now; in fact, as a bulls fan, im actually hoping the bulls trade rose to miami for udonis haslem and a 2nd round pick (maybe the 2nd rounder can become anything close to chalmers, and haslem provides that inside presence that we’ve desperately needed), maybe there he can be at least somewhat effective as mario chalmers’ back-up. oh, and by the way, just throwing this out there: what do you think of a possible trade of andres nocioni for greg oden? i know oden was in major foul trouble in summer league last year and he seems injury prone; on the other hand, nocioni’s a beast who can really make a difference for a title-contending team trying to improve upon the incredible 41-win season they just had. with jerryd bayless (who is a combination of jordan and iverson, if summer league has any significance at all) added to the mix, portland really could benefit from trading away the injury and foul prone oden.
and oh, one more thing (kinda off topic), i think donte’ green and anthony randolph are going to be the leading candidates for mvp next season because i recall each one of them having at least one monster game in summer league. lebron and chris paul have nothing on them. (btw, kp knew those 2 were amazing players, he just passed on them purposely to make the nba a little more competitive for when his team of superhumans play. the man’s really generous, doing that just to prevent the adoring fans from the boredom of triple-digit leads in the first half. did i mention he taught me how to read? yea, true story; the man’s a angel.)
by kite on Jul 26, 2008 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good luck
Incorporating a developmental point guard into your mess of a team. I really hope it works out. There couldn’t be a better situation for him. Also, as a sort-of Cavs fan, I have to congratulate you on picking up Larry Hughes. He’s great. Just willing to lay it all out on the line for his teammates. As long as that doesn’t mean shooting over 40% from the field, passing to an open shooter, or doing anything else that might even inadvertantly help them win a game. I really think Hughes, combined with your all-athleticism-no-skill front line of Noah and Thomas, is really going to lead to good things for your boy Rose. I envy him. Really, I do. It’s also a good sign that Rose was terrible in summer league despite those guys actually playing there alongside him against inferior competition. Keep thinking those good thoughts.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
Yeah, the Bulls are a mess,
but I don’t think summer league is where those judgments should be made. Tyrus looked at least decent in summer league, but I agree that Noah was pretty bad. However, Noah was good enough last year as someone who provides hieght, energy, and defense; so once again, I’m not going to look too much into his summer league performance. Rose showed flashes when he was aggressive, and I believe that it will take him some time to get accustomed to the league, his new teammates and his role as a leader on the team. His main fault in summer league was not being aggressive enough and pssing the ball around the perimeter too much (because the wings are trying to impress the coaches in order to make the team, so they are not likely to pass the ball back unless absolutely necessary). An unselfish point guard usually doesn’t look good in summer league, as there are very few plays to run, the rest of the team is selfish (as explained above), and the fast breaks (Rose’s biggest strength) are often sloppy because the players don’t know what to expect from each other and are just not accustomed to each other. If all that isn’t enough to begin with, he had a knee injury (which turned out to be no big deal). So, with all of those factors in play, I think I’ll choose not to look too much into Rose’s summer league performance either. You also failed to mention any of the decent players on the Bulls that might just help Rose: Deng, Gordon, Kirk, Gooden, and (to some extent) Nocioni.
Now, as for Hughes, I can’t believe that you’d even think to bring that up as a Cavs fan. Yeah, Hughes sucks, but do you even remember who the Bulls traded to get him and Gooden? Ben Wallace and Joe Smith. How’s Big Ben (lol) doing? Drew Gooden is actually a pretty good player (and he has an expiring contract). I don’ think there’s any way to argue that the Cavs got the better end of that deal.
But it’s okay, I understand. You’re probably just mad because LeBron is leaving Cleveland in a few years to go to a bigger city. At least one half of you does (the Cavs fan half). The other half is busy worshipping KP and hoping that LMA and Roy haven’t reached their ceilings, Bayless continues to see the same defenders that he embarassed in summer league, and Oden’s knees (or wrist, or whatever) don’t explode (that’s if he can keep the fouls down to a foul per minute).
I'm not going to get into an extended debate on here
about the Cavs trade, but suffice it to say, I thought it worked out just fine for Cleveland. West and Smith were both positive +/- guys, while Hughes and Gooden were, let’s just say, well into the red. Obviously Big Ben wasn’t expected to come in and shake up the world – he’s a role player. He’s not a nuclear bomb to your team like Hughes is, though. Hughes is completely ambivalent about winning. I legitimately feel sorry for Chi-town.
As for Rose/summer league, I think most of your points are valid. Way too early to write the kid off. I think annointing him as the next great PG was a little premature, but he’s still got loads of potential.
As for Portland, nice effort at trying to criticize the position of the best collection of young talent in the league, but obviously, that plane was bound to go down in flames. Never had a chance. Funny thing is, just about all the things you said could turn out to be valid (more probably, none of them will come to pass), and Portland’s still a title contender in two years. On the flip side, things could go pretty much ideal for the Bulls, and their ceiling down the line is the 5 seed in the east. No way a Hinrich/Gordon/Noah/Gooden/Rose nucleus surpasses the Wizards or the Magic (probably not the Sixers either), much less the Cavs, Celtics, Pistons, etc.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
LOL, a post from a bulls fan (apparently) criticizing someone for over-valuing one of their own players...
Hmmm, funny, because I remember fan after fan of the Bulls insisting that Tyrus Thomas was better than LaMarcus and that Chicago got the better of that trade…
i think ist your personal missiion
that everybody he meets in ptown know him on sight.
"Who do the historians think (t)he best crop of rookies on one team[up until now] is?"
---sothern oregon
"I'd have to go with the 12 disciples.... They pretty much turned the world upside down in short order......."
---prezofdeath
".....Judas was a big bust, he was the Darko of that class."
---RoyDrexler
2 BlzrFn1
"Who do the historians think (t)he best crop of rookies on one team[up until now] is?"
---sothern oregon
"I'd have to go with the 12 disciples.... They pretty much turned the world upside down in short order......."
---prezofdeath
".....Judas was a big bust, he was the Darko of that class."
---RoyDrexler
Well actually no... he's just super cute and I never tire of looking at him
and sometimes. if I feel a comment of post is
a. repeating something i have read 80 times that day (literally) that is logical but redundent then I will post the pic (including my own posts of course….)
b. suggesting something stupid
-Sophia
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
guess i asked for it
"I was playing rock band with my wife and a four year old girl, after U of H got their booty handed to them in the Sugar Bowl. My wife was playing the drums, and the little girl and I were on the couch behind her. I was just joking and pointed at my wife and whispered, "She’s a bed wetter." The little girl smile real big and said, "So am I." That really wasn’t the reaction I was going for so I just said, "All right, high five." Then she high fived me and I never joked about bed wetting again." ---tominhawii
i wasn't referring to anythin gyou posted
it was to JLSnake99. Just a redundant post thats all
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
no, i know
I was trying to antagonize you and got a serious responce, thats what I ment. shouldnt you be working?
"I was playing rock band with my wife and a four year old girl, after U of H got their booty handed to them in the Sugar Bowl. My wife was playing the drums, and the little girl and I were on the couch behind her. I was just joking and pointed at my wife and whispered, "She’s a bed wetter." The little girl smile real big and said, "So am I." That really wasn’t the reaction I was going for so I just said, "All right, high five." Then she high fived me and I never joked about bed wetting again." ---tominhawii
Okay
um most likely , my “supervisor ” is currently reading my comments over my shoulder and chucklng… lol it’s a slow day
Sophia
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
Slow day
My problem with Nic in the looks department is his awful habit of mouth-breathing. Close your mouth!
It would really help me see what you see if he breathed through his nose.
WWSBD?
TRADE 4 THE STACHE!
by nightbluefruit on Jul 25, 2008 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
H HE HE Um im pretty sure it's diffcult to do that when he's
running up and down the court…LOL plus the open mouth gives him that “pouty” look = Very sexy :-)
Sophia
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
Look, it's simple, if he wants to be a French sex symbol
He will find a way to keep the mouth closed. Pouty looks can be achieved by sucking the cheeks in a la “zoolander” and extending the closed lips.
Open mouth = “short bus look”
WWSBD?
TRADE 4 THE STACHE!
by nightbluefruit on Jul 25, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
HAHA that is terrible..
he’s just inhaling Jesus H! LOL that really did make me laugh outloud though!
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
Slow day in claims?
Wow, better look back for the knife if your SPVSR is watching.
Get back to work slave girl.
The Oden Era, Day 394
Wow i couldn't have said it better myself
Leaders build cultures that create self-esteem, generate and sustain trust, elevate the dignity of work , create community and foster open communication, and finally encourage growth and learning.
-Warren Bennis USC Professor
Those were the greatest books ever in the history of the world.
I wouldn’t have read at all as a young guy if it were not for these books.
I want to be tucked in by Greg Oden and have him tell us stories about the old days.
Why is this poll so close!
I know we’re all homers, but seriously you guys… 1 for 1 Bayless for Rose? No brainer, no need to talk to four scouts, if this were to happen it would take two bottles one for Johny no job and one for the celebration!
whaa happen?
BEdgers are so cute
Our homerism is adorable.
WWSBD?
TRADE 4 THE STACHE!
by nightbluefruit on Jul 25, 2008 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I am suprised that the Bloga Bull
contingent hasn’t shown up yet
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
They're too busy with their deep dish pizzas and matlock-themed hot dogs
and frankly, I don’t think they’re man enough.
But seriously, deep dish pizza is delicious.
WWSBD?
TRADE 4 THE STACHE!
by nightbluefruit on Jul 25, 2008 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
It sure is
The All Meat Pizza from Godfathers is good too and it doesn’t come with Bulls fans.
Mmmmmm Bacon
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
It doesn't come with bears fans does it?
If so, I’m out.
Have you tried stuffed pizza before? That s* is so good it’s going to sneak into my room while I’m asleep and kill me.
WWSBD?
TRADE 4 THE STACHE!
by nightbluefruit on Jul 25, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
No....no Bears fans either
Yeh …the stuffed Pizza is a concept I can get behind. Yum. That is why I am 6’3” 250lbs (instead of 155lbs I was when i graduated high school).
Homer: "Oh no!! A Bear is eating my father!." (On seeing Selma kissing Grampa)
by 92wastheyear on Jul 25, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
If being a blogga buller = deep dish pizza and hot dogs
I quit and I’m joining them. Sorry guys.
Darius Miles found me.
I'd take Rose
And I consider myself a bigger Bayless fan than 90% of the people that comment on this site. Rose is the real deal. He’s assist stats were hurt by the Memphis offense. They are taught to dribble every time they catch the ball.
I would not, however, trade Bayless for Westbrook, Augustin, or Mayo.
When you say you wouldn't trade Bayless for Mayo
Are you talking about the player or the condiment?
You’re talking about the condiment, right?
WWSBD?
TRADE 4 THE STACHE!
by nightbluefruit on Jul 25, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I think that's a reasonable position.
But I think reasonable people can disagree on this – and could have even before the draft. I think it’s funny how some people lock on to the idea that the “concensus” view is the 100% absolute end-all truth, like Noah carried it Chad Ford’s mock draft down from the mountaintop.
It’s not like this is comparing a second round prospect to a top 5 guy – it’s number 2 vs. number 4. NBA GMs get distinctions that fine wrong just about as often as they get them right.
And as for KP saying, “it’s pretty much two guys, then everybody else,” elevating Beasley/Rose, don’t you guys think that fits perfectly with the smokescreen approach? He was trying to make it look like all the guys after Beasley/Rose are relatively equal, so that the guy(s) he wanted might slip. And it worked.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
How well do smokescreens actually work?
Does a quote from any GM really make a significant impact on what other people will pick?
--
by CaptainSexyJacob on Jul 25, 2008 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions
That's the only reason to explain why Bayless fell to #11.
The KP Hype Machine (patent-pending) rocketed Westbrook up to #4, Alexander up to #8 and Augustine up to #9, when before they worked out for Portland, they were reasonably expected to be available at #13 for us.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"In vino veritas." - Latin proverb
"Ich sitze hier und trinke mein gutes Wittenbergisch Bier und das Reich Gottes kommt von ganz alleine" - Martin Luther
"μηκέτι ὑδροπότει, ἀλλὰ οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ χρῶ διὰ τὸν στόμαχον καὶ τὰς πυκνάς σου ἀσθενείας." - 1 Timothy 5:23
Bargnani was not the consensus #1 pick
That year, nobody stood out of the top 8 or so rated prospects. Beasley and Rose stood out this year, as Oden and Durant did last year.
Boomshakalaka
ur right about the smokescreen
i think that was paxson’s deciding factor in taking rose over beasley or bayless. he was thinking to himself “hmm, i wonder what kp thinks?” and when he saw that kp agreed with everyone else, he crossed bayless off the list. then later on he realized that rose is from chicago and made the decision. the thorough research, scouting and individual workouts had nothing to do with the selection of rose.
Obviously KP had nothing to do with Rose being first overall.
But he did possibly contribute to the idea that Westbrook wasn’t a reach at 4, Alexander wasn’t a reach at 7, Augustine wasn’t a reach at 9, and all of the above (including Lopez, Gordon, etc, as well) were approximately on the same level as Bayless (and thus justifiable if they filled more of a team need).
In Chad Ford’s “tier” column a couple days before the draft – which means basically you always pick the guy from the highest tier if he’s available, but within the same tier, you pick based on team need – Rose and Beasley were in the top tier, Bayless and Mayo were second tier, and then the other aforementioned guys were all in tier three. KP elevated a few guys to tier two and got them considered on the same talent level as Bayless – even though this was against the prevailing view at the time. According to Ford, there wasn’t a single GM he talked to who didn’t have Bayless ranked fourth, at worst, in terms of talent level.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
I think everybody here needs to take a deep breath and count to ten
If you really think that KP is so omniscient that he can make a top two talent drop to number eleven in the draft just by who he chooses to work out, you really are some of the biggest homers in the world.
Seriously, how would you like it if someone else’s fans went around saying this kind of junk? Oh, yeah, Blazers only picked Bowie because the Bulls’ scouts hypnotized them with snake dances.
Seriously. I’m not even going to tell you what this is because it would just make people mad.
Seriously.
WWSBD?
TRADE 4 THE STACHE!
by nightbluefruit on Jul 26, 2008 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
ooh, ooh, pick me, pick me!
ima big homer! (said with childlike enthusiam)
"Doing research= good
Making up things=bad."
---jksnake99
Nope.
But he can contribute (as oppose to directly cause) to a top 4 talent dropping to number 11. That’s not homerism. That’s just the way it seems to have gone down. That’s pretty well established (as at worst a legit theory, if not a logical conclusion or just a simple fact) by Ben and others on the main page. KP himself coined the term “smokescreen” and said this will come to be known as the smokescreen draft.
Seriously.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
Why don't we wait and see how well the players turn out.
1. Before we start bragging about how bad every other GM in the league got fleeced, let’s make sure they actually got fleeced.
2. If there is any truth to the fact that a single GM can override what an entire team’s armada of scouts come up with, then we are fans of a league of imbeciles.
WWSBD?
TRADE 4 THE STACHE!
by nightbluefruit on Jul 27, 2008 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Um, by Noah
I mean Moses. Wow. I should drink less coffee. And beer.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
Why drink less?
All the best theologians are doing it.
Besides, Noah came down off of a mountain just like Moses did.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"In vino veritas." - Latin proverb
"Ich sitze hier und trinke mein gutes Wittenbergisch Bier und das Reich Gottes kommt von ganz alleine" - Martin Luther
"μηκέτι ὑδροπότει, ἀλλὰ οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ χρῶ διὰ τὸν στόμαχον καὶ τὰς πυκνάς σου ἀσθενείας." - 1 Timothy 5:23
And it was one of the finest scenes in movie history
If there ever was a scene that made me literally ROFLMAO it is Mel Brooks as Moses bringing us the, oy ten commandments in the History of the World.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAtRCJIqnk
Coach, I promise I wasn't running hard ...
All the best theologians are doing it?
It sure seems that way. The wishy washy emergent, post modernism is incredible. Has anyone ever heard of the Five Solas? Law and Grace? Wowzers! They kill me!
I am the worst sports commentator ever. Please pass the cheesedoodles.
They're up to five now?
Do they now include Sola Ego? (sigh) The beer is necessary to forget this stuff, and the coffee is necessary to stay awake while you’re drinking the beer. Unfortunately, this makes for adventurous trips to the bathroom every twenty minutes after bedtime.
And why is Steven A. Smith your avatar? More beer and coffee tonight for me….
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"In vino veritas." - Latin proverb
"Ich sitze hier und trinke mein gutes Wittenbergisch Bier und das Reich Gottes kommt von ganz alleine" - Martin Luther
"μηκέτι ὑδροπότει, ἀλλὰ οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ χρῶ διὰ τὸν στόμαχον καὶ τὰς πυκνάς σου ἀσθενείας." - 1 Timothy 5:23
but what about
this guy
"I was playing rock band with my wife and a four year old girl, after U of H got their booty handed to them in the Sugar Bowl. My wife was playing the drums, and the little girl and I were on the couch behind her. I was just joking and pointed at my wife and whispered, "She’s a bed wetter." The little girl smile real big and said, "So am I." That really wasn’t the reaction I was going for so I just said, "All right, high five." Then she high fived me and I never joked about bed wetting again." ---tominhawii
Ouch
He seriously had to be a plant. That’s the only way Stephen A. could own someone.
I am the worst sports commentator ever. Please pass the cheesedoodles.
by prezofdeath on Jul 25, 2008 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
You know what makes me sad????
The fact that Screamin A Smith is successful in the field of sports. It just, isn’t, right….
RUDY > MJ
WHAT DO YOU MEAN STEPHEN A SMITH
SHOULDN”T HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL AS A COMMENTATOR IN THE NATIONAL BASKETBALL ASSOCIATION!!!!!! HOW COULD WE DO WITHOUT ALL THE YELLING!!!? WHO WOULD TELL US WHAT IS THE ABSOLUTE GODS HONEST TRUTH!!!? I LOVE STEPHEN A!!!
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 26, 2008 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm about as blind-homer as it gets.
And I still gotta trade Bayless for Rose straight up. If Paxson is that drunk, you’ve got to take advantage. Isn’t that how we got Aldridge in the first place?
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"In vino veritas." - Latin proverb
"Ich sitze hier und trinke mein gutes Wittenbergisch Bier und das Reich Gottes kommt von ganz alleine" - Martin Luther
"μηκέτι ὑδροπότει, ἀλλὰ οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ χρῶ διὰ τὸν στόμαχον καὶ τὰς πυκνάς σου ἀσθενείας." - 1 Timothy 5:23
Fair enough.
I suppose it just looks that way in hindsight.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"In vino veritas." - Latin proverb
"Ich sitze hier und trinke mein gutes Wittenbergisch Bier und das Reich Gottes kommt von ganz alleine" - Martin Luther
"μηκέτι ὑδροπότει, ἀλλὰ οἴνῳ ὀλίγῳ χρῶ διὰ τὸν στόμαχον καὶ τὰς πυκνάς σου ἀσθενείας." - 1 Timothy 5:23
Dang, nearly a 50-50 split at this point....
Never underestimate the power of true homerism….
Rose > Bayless
btw,,,,,,,HOMERS RULE!!!!!! And I am one of them, proud as can be. But not even my blatant homer tendencies can justify Bayless over Rose. Believe me I tried….
RUDY > MJ
Likewise.
I’m a big Blazer homer too but I also try to maintain at least at least a small degree of rational, objective, logical thinking.
I remember telling him how impressed I was with a player during summer league. In Avery's unique voice, he replied, "Marc, it's summer league." I
What about WESTBROOK
iF the Blazers had a choice of Bayless and Westbrook, who would be a better fit knowing what we know NOW? We all wanted Westbrook before the draft, we thought Bayless was not going to be available. So who is better for the team NOW?
Like I said above
1 We get Westbrook
2 KP: That’s the guy we wanted all along. Nate: Great defender, he was very high on our list
3 Everybody in Blazerland is happy
Coach, I promise I wasn't running hard ...
KP and company loved Westbrook
And they would’ve been thrilled with getting him, I think. But they liked Bayless more. Mainly, I think, because he’s so much farther along as a shooter.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 26, 2008 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm going to guess Bayless will be the best scorer of the group.
However, I think he’s behind in many other areas. It appears that Rose and Westbrook probably have better PG skills. Westbrook looks like a better defender, and people always speak highly of Rose’s defensive potential. Bayless was almost historically bad in college when it came to rebounding and steals. Rose and Westbrook are also said to have a bit more athleticism even if the numbers don’t fully show that.
I really don’t know what to think of Mayo since people range from above average starter with good shooting and nice defense to All-Star with elite athleticism. He seems to be a bit hit-or-miss with the scouts and disliked by the stat heads.
I agree with the people who would do a little jig if we had this opportunity. Bayless is a great pick at #11, but Rose is a #1 pick. Summer league doesn’t change that at all. Rose was about equal to Bayless in college despite being a lot more raw. The potential is likely a lot higher than Rose. The lack of positional ambiguity is yet another factor in favor of Rose.
for real?
122 of you would rather keep j-bay in a 1for1 trade with rose? what are they putting in the water down there in portland???
You'd have to watch summer league to understand
Bayless looked dominant. And not the kind of dominant that doesn’t translate at all to the regular season – it’s not like he was just shaking inferior defenders and hitting open 15 footers (like say Marcus Banks). He was getting trapped off the pick n roll every play, his teammates were incapable of catching a pass much less finishing, all three big men on the other team were coming at him, and nobody could stop him. He’s sick. Obviously he’s not dropping 36 on the Spurs – but he might drop 15 off the bench and provide a much needed spark.
We’ll see if Orlando was a fluke, and of course I didn’t actually see the games – but the universal take was that Rose looked like he’s not ready to start this year or be a big contributor. Being a PG as a rookie is always tough, particular when you’re 19, so that’s not necessarily a knock on him. But he’s not a can’t miss all-star, by any stretch, in my opinion.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 26, 2008 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Our draft lottery thread
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/5/20/523585/lottery-drawing-open-threa
Everyone seemed to be hoping for Rose. I don’t see any “gee guys, maybe Bayless is better than him” comments. Now that he’s a Blazer people are saying he was #1 on our boards all along.
And please don’t “summer league” me. Qyntel Woods. Marco Bellinelli. Marcus Banks.
Bayless is a great prospect. We’re lucky to have him. I’m excited to see what happens. There is a legitamite chance he’ll have a better career than Rose… but he’s not nearly the prospect that DR is.
Boomshakalaka
by jksnake99 on Jul 26, 2008 2:51 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
The "it's summer league" argument has been beaten to death.
But I really am curious – did you catch any of the games? Not that it invalidates your point if you didn’t (and I don’t mean to be critical by asking). I’m just saying – for people to be encouraged after watching him play a few times in summer league is not as ridiculous as you’re making it sound (nor is it ridiculous to be so encouraged that you would prefer the number 4 prospect in the draft to the number 2).
He was not playing against absolute stiffs. Competition was at least on par with the NCAA, and the style of game is closer to the NBA. The summer leagues were stronger than ever this year – unlike in past years, when top prospects stayed away. It’s a better way to assess guys than it used to be.
Personally, I watched probably 5-10 Memphis games last year. (And I like Rose, don’t get me wrong.) I saw exactly zero Arizona games. So I didn’t give Bayless a second thought pre-draft. But I’ve now watched him play 4-5 (yes, summer league) games. And I don’t think the “it’s summer league” argument completely invalidates what you saw in those 4-5 games. Can we blindly rely on summer league stats? No. Those, I agree, are meaningless, and not to be compared with college or anything else. And summer league is only one piece of the puzzle. But as for making assessments about skill level, shooting ability, quickness, toughness, handle, finishing ability, ability to play off the pick and roll (which, by the way, is something you rarely see at all in college that’s critical in the league), etc., all of those obvservations are not completely rendered meaningless by the “it’s summer league” write-off approach.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
I watched all 5 games
He was impressive. We have learned that the likes of Pooh Jeter can’t guard him. We don’t know if he can play PG and we don’t know how effective he’ll be against real NBA defenses.
I would tend to give people more credit if I’d heard one person suggest Bayless was on Rose’s level before he became a Blazer.
Boomshakalaka
Valid points, and strong Pooh Jeter reference
I realize it’s going out on a little bit of a limb to prefer Bayless, right now, so soon after all the scouts were drooling and all the mock drafts proclaimed him (a little prematurely) the combination of CP3’s quicks and DWIlliams’ size. And you’re right, there’s really no way at all to know how Bayless will fare at the point.
All summer league showed was that Bayless can definitely score, and Rose is a little raw at this point. Whether that means anyone should, or could, think Bayless will be the better NBA player is a subject of debate. If a team (like the Bulls, for instance) needs a pure pass first guy, I agree they’re better off seeing if Rose will develop into that (he’s not there yet, but he has the mentality and, obviously, the athleticism). But for the Blazers, who need a guy to play off Roy, provide a little scoring punch, and knock down threes (as opposed to getting shots for teammates – there’s plenty of guys to do that), I like Bayless better.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
I think you've hit on the key point...
Portland does not really need a pass-first guy. They need shooters and dudes who can get to the rim. I think Bayless is quick enough and strong enough to get to the rim, but I don’t know if he can get a shot off against taller traditional SGs. I guess it depends on who guards him. If he’s guarded by a shorter dude, he can try to shoot over him. If he’s guarded by a taller dude, he can dribble right around him.
No one is denying that Rose has a lot of potential, but I don’t know that he’s a great fit in Portland. You might argue to take the better talent, but sometimes that can be subtraction by addition if the better talent doesn’t mesh.
Thank you
Rose could be a little overvalued, but he and Beasley were on a different tier entirely than the rest of the draft. It’s a little unnerving to see how many people would actually go with Bayless. We got a nice steal with him, but if we were to have given up the pieces that we did to get Rose it would have been nothing short of a miracle, and we would be nothing short of an absolutely dominant team in a few years. We would have a shoe-in all star at every single spot on our roster except the 3.
Rose + Beasley were never considered to be on a different tier
in the same way Durant and Oden were. All year this was considered to be a deep class, with Beasley at the head, clearly, and then a number of similar guys (Gordon, Mayo, Bayless, Rose) in the next 5 spots. Rose was probably number two most of the year, but not by a wide margin. The movement to put Rose in Beasley’s “class” didn’t start until the NCAA tourney – prior to that, it would’ve been ridiculous to consider taking him number one. And anytime a guy’s stock soars solely on the basis of a tourney run (Tyrus Thomas, anyone?), it’s probably right to be a little suspicious about whether that rise is legit.
Also, KP was one of the foremost people in the league leading the “it’s Rose/Beasley then everyone else” movement, and he did that not because he believed it, but because he had a reason. Smokescreen. The Blazers identified Bayless early last year as a guy that would be perfect for them (see the articles on draftexpress), and that was their strategy for getting him.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 27, 2008 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, they were
last year before the season even began, Rose was projected the best point guard in the draft along with Mayo, but the rap on Mayo being that he was too selfish. During our not so stellar start last season I even remember someone saying something along the lines of ‘Call rose and tell him to pack his bags for Portland.” Rose was the top PG prospect and stayed solid all year, moved past Mayo early and was one of the top 2 with Beasley since Dec. A solid (the understatement of the day) tourney didn’t hurt that. I’m not sure what you are talking about in the draft express articles, whether it being “Watching his footage, it’s hard not to wonder whether Rose might actually be the most athletic point guard we’ve ever evaluated at the college level.” on Nov. 23rd or “He will certainly be in contention for the #1 spot, and while there’s no guarantee he’ll be a superstar, there’s no reason to think he won’t be at the very least, a good starting point guard for a long time, especially if he’s given ample time to develop his all-around game and garner the experience he needs at the point guard spot.” after the least flattering review of him on Draft express in January.
And please, enough of the KP manipulating the draft stuff. It’s just absurd to think that people people actually disregarded entire networks of scouts and their own people who are specifically hired to evaluate players systematically because on draft day they said “Well KP likes him, he must be good. I’ll go with that guy”. Come on, this is all borderline ridiculous.
To get a second opinion somebody should post that idea on Blog-A-Bull
Make this poll with the same story and see how many Bulls fans would do that trade in a heartbeat after watching how great our own Jerryd Bayless was in summer league and how mediocre Rose looked in Orlando. Hilarity ensues (hint: the current name/bookmark of that blog is Blog A Bull – Derrick Rose Derrick Rose Derrick Rose).
Better yet, post that trade idea and story on the Bulls ESPN message board, cause the fans on Blog A Bull might be too reasonable. I won’t do it, cause I also wouldn’t do the trade as the GM of Chicago ;-)
Coach, I promise I wasn't running hard ...
Yeah, good point, I wouldn't do the trade for Chicago either
Bayless is too close to replicating Ben Gordon’s skill set. The Bulls have big guys (like TT and Noah) who aren’t as good at getting their own shot. They don’t have a two guy like Roy who can create for other people, and they don’t have a low post presence like LA or Oden (much less both) to draw double teams. They’ve got to hope Rose develops into a “pure” point. The Blazers have the luxary of using Bayless for what we know he can do – score, take it to the rack, and hit open Js – and if he develops into a PG/playmaker, that’s a bonus.
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 27, 2008 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Also, there's a link to this on Blog-a-bull
In an article hoping KP gets jailed (impossible) for HIPAA violations. So they might be tilting the vote against Bayless!
Bayless isn't the second coming of Jordan.
Jordan was the first coming of Bayless.
by KP Corleone on Jul 27, 2008 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Does Rose have T-Rex arms?
‘Cause that’s all I care about.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
Rose and Bayless closer than you think
Both Rose (end of season) and Bayless (beginning of season) played Kansas and lost (best defense in NCAA last year). Arizona was at KU and if you have ever been there it is even more intimidating than Mac Court. There are 16.300 Kansas fans and zero Arizona fans. Bayless was 5-9 FG, 2-2 3FG, 7-7 FT, 2 assists, 1 steal and 7 turnovers. Mario Chalmers and Russell Robinson of KU were combined 5-14 with a combined 10 assists and 5 turnovers. Arizona lost by 4 points.
Memphis was in San Antonio a neutral court but more pressure on the game. Rose was 7-17 FG, 1-6 3FG, 3-4 FT, 8 assists, 2 steals and 5 turnovers. Mario Chalmers and Russell Robinson were a combined 6-14 with 4 assists and 6 turnovers. Memphis lost by 7 points (all in overtime).
In my opinion Bayless had the better teammate in Chase Budinger (scored 27) while the PG Nic Wise had 6 assists for Arizona. Douglas-Roberts had 22 points so he was good too but Arizona was not the duds people think.
So I agree that the two players are relatively evenly matched and even more importantly Bayless does not bring the baggage of Worldwide Wes with him. I would not make the trade. It has nothing to do with summer leagues. I simply liked the intangibles here better and I really do trust KP to get the player he wanted. Bayless was supposedly #4 on Portland’s board but that does not necessarily reflect the culture part of the ranking. It may also be ridiculous to say but we do not know of Rose was in the top three on the board either.
I enjoy the premise (totally could not happen) and the exercise. Nice creative way to present it.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
yeah but does Rose have T-Rex arms??
This was the year of the T-Rex PG. We got him and the Bulls didn’t. Case closed.
Winning is everything.
Well, since Chicago would never ever do this trade straight up
Isn’t this the sports-geek version of Spiderman vs Batman?
Batman (No, not that mouth-breathing Frenchman who leads the Skeleton Army, BlazerFan1) would totally kick Spidey’s butt by the way.
"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." -Gandhi
"Throw Thag, throw. Throw throw throw throw throw throw"- Far Side
by TheThinWhiteDuke on Jul 27, 2008 7:37 PM PDT reply actions
Haha ha skeleton army
Reminds me of a joke. A skeleton (insert Nicolas Batum) walks into a bar and orders a glass of water and a mop.
Winning is everything.
Yes I would trade Bayless for Rose,
Say they are equal talent wise. I would make the trade based on the fact that Rose is a point guard and Bayless is not. Plus I do think that Rose is a better talent.
Beasley/Rose/Roy
If Rose had been available at 11, we would have taken him. But he wasn’t. KP said all along he could’ve traded down. But to do so would’ve meant giving up another key player. And he wasn’t willing to do that just to get Rose. Rose might be somewhat better than Bayless – but he wasn’t sufficiently better to justify another key player plus Jack and/or our cap space. And, I suspect the same thinking will always apply. Bayless was the #4 talent on the only depth chart that mattered – KP’s. The difference between the #1/#2, and #4 didn’t justify the cost given what we needed to complement Roy. And, in a year or two, if both pan out as the Blazers had them rated, it will be the same.
For what it’s worth, I never for a moment believed that Riley didn’t want Beasley. Riley was simply playing games, while all along, hoping Chicago would take Rose. Rose will be a good player, but Beasley is the real deal. Riley knew that – unless you think he’s some neophyte. Beasley will be a long term elite player. Rose will be a very good point guard. But Beasley is the better player.
My bet is that we will never trade for an elite point guard like some seem to think. The reason is we like the ball in Roy’s hands much of the time to run plays. Get that permanent point guard, and you take it out of Roy’s hand’s and make him a permanent 2. You build teams by meshing the talents you have.
As KP keeps saying, and as Roy has confirmed, they got Bayless to complement Roy. That means bring the ball up, pass to Roy to run the play, slide over to the 2 spot and move without the ball to get his shot, sometimes run a play, and guard the other team’s point. Rose is a better PG, but Bayless is a better fit for Roy and the Blazers.
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