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If Darius plays, does it or does it not count against the cap?

I'm so confused. I keep reading differing views on the D Miles situation. The assumption all along is that if he comes back and actually plays in more than 10 games in either of the next two seasons, that IT WILL COUNT AGAINST THE CAP. However, this article quotes otherwise..."As we've reported in The Oregonian and this blog, if Miles plays in 10 games during either of the next two seasons, the remaining $18 million on his six-year, $48-million contract would go back on the Blazers' books. The team is responsible for paying Miles, but it will not count against the salary cap because an independent doctor deemed his right knee injury career ending"... Either the Oregonian is wrong, or we're wrong. OBVIOUSLY if it doesn't count against the cap, then who cares if the Blazers have to SPAM, I doubt he does. However, if it does, then all of our worst fears look like they're about to come true.

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right now it doesn't

if he plays 10 games it does. “Our worst fears” is going a bit too far. It would mean we’d have ~15 mil of cap space instead of ~24; significant, but hardly our worst fear.

Boomshakalaka

by jksnake99 on Jul 19, 2008 4:29 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Where's your source?

The Oregonian quote above directly conflicts with what you’re saying. By “going back on the Blazers books”, they’re simply saying the Blazers, not the insurance company, would be responsible for paying D Miles. It very specifically states that it wouldn’t count against our cap. What gives?

myspace.com/marktwainindians

by mark twain on Jul 19, 2008 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is so cool

Sometimes I confuse you two; so then I wonder who would win in a fight between the two of you.
BLOGGER FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!
HEY EVERYONE THERE IS A BLOGGER FIGHT GOING ON OVER HERE.
BLOGGER FIGHT!!!!!!!!

--. --- | -... .-.. .- --.. . .-. ...

by tominhawaii on Jul 19, 2008 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

dude

I would totally blog jksnake99 to death. I’d be all, “0001000100010000111000”, then he’d be all, “0010010”, then I’d throw the knockout “001011000110011000011110000010100010010010”... End of story, good night Eileen!

myspace.com/marktwainindians

by mark twain on Jul 19, 2008 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then I would come in and throw down some serious hex...

A7BBC4E2FF23E8 all up in ya’lls business! POW!!!!

RUDY > MJ

by myemic23 on Jul 19, 2008 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The fight is between jksnake99 an mark twain

You going Hex on them would be the equivalent of waiting until the fight got going and then sucker punching one them in the kidney

nothing wrong with that per se. Jus saying

Mortimer: "It’ll be so nice I’ll need microfracture—ON MY WEINER."

by 92wastheyear on Jul 19, 2008 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah!

that would make you a sissy!

myspace.com/marktwainindians

by mark twain on Jul 19, 2008 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to rain on your 00010110010100 parade,

but for binary to make sense, doesn’t it have to be in groups of eight—(IE divisible by 8)?

How do I set my laser printer to stun?

by prezofdeath on Jul 19, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

not in this fight

this is a bar fight, no rules

myspace.com/marktwainindians

by mark twain on Jul 19, 2008 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeh !!! Way to go

Marquis of Queensbury. Hit him with a pool que…or any random octet you happen to find layin’ around

Mortimer: "It’ll be so nice I’ll need microfracture—ON MY WEINER."

by 92wastheyear on Jul 19, 2008 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

for the record

i’m not really fighting with jksnake99, just wanted to see some proof from someone that it will go against our cap!

myspace.com/marktwainindians

by mark twain on Jul 19, 2008 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tom

We used to do this to the coach’s,big fight,you got him down,kill him.They come running and its 2 guys playing chess on the 50 yard line,good for laps every time.

by southern oregon on Jul 19, 2008 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

honestly...

I suspect the oregonian has it wrong in this case. Everything I have heard says exactly what jksnake said…

RUDY > MJ

by myemic23 on Jul 19, 2008 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look at it this way:

If it didn’t go back on the cap then the only issue would be who pays the salary, the Blazers or the insurance company. We know Darius gets paid the full amount no matter what, but as long as he’s medically retired their insurance picks up 80% of it.

The point is this is an INSURANCE concern, not really an NBA or cap concern. If this were all there was to it, then the NBA would not need any kind of rule regarding this issue and the cap beyond just taking the salary off the cap for retirement. Yet there is a rule…and I cannot link it for you right now because I am doing other stuff but maybe Storyteller will see this and help out. In any case, I have seen and read the rule. The rule, since it exists, must deal with the cap. The only reason to have it there would be to put that salary back on the cap.

—Dave

by Dave on Jul 19, 2008 6:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Dave

Now I dont need a lawyer

by southern oregon on Jul 19, 2008 6:54 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

From the Actual CBA

here is the section from the CBA covering Career-Ending Injuries:

”.......(h) Long-Term Injuries. Any player who suffers a career-ending injury or illness, and whose contract is terminated by the Team in accordance with the NBA waiver procedure, will be excluded from his Team’s Team Salary as follows:

(1) Beginning on the first anniversary of the injury or illness, the Team may apply to the NBA to have the player’s Salary for each remaining Salary Cap Year covered by the Contract excluded from Team Salary.

(2) The determination of whether a player has suffered a career-ending injury or illness shall be made by a physician selected jointly by the NBA and the Players Association.

(3) Notwithstanding Section 4(h)(1) and (2) above, the career-ending injury or illness of a player who plays in more than ten (10) games in any Season shall not be deemed to have occurred prior to the last game in which the player played in such Season.

(4) Notwithstanding Section 4(h)(1) and (2) above, if after a player’s Salary is excluded from Team Salary in accordance with this Section 4(h), the player plays in ten (10) NBA games in any Season, the excluded Salary for the Salary Cap Year covering such Season and each subsequent Salary Cap Year shall thereupon be included in Team Salary (and if the tenth game played is a playoff game, then the excluded Salary shall be included in Salary retroactively as of the start of the Team’s last Regular Season game). After a player’s Salary for one (1) or more Salary Cap Years has been included in Team Salary in accordance with this Section 4(h)(4), the player’s Team shall be permitted at the appropriate time to re-apply to have the player’s Salary (for each Salary Cap Year remaining at the time of the re-application) excluded from Team Salary in accordance with the rules set forth in this Section 4(h).......”

Now I”m not an attorney, so some of the language there seems a little confusing, but I think I have the gist of it, especially in light of other things we know.

Basically, If Darius Miles plays in 10 game or more this season, his salary would be brought back and applied to the Blazer’s team salary. That would of course, impact their cap-space.

However, the provision in 4(h)(4) is critical. That would allow portland to re-apply to have the Miles salary removed (once again) from the blazer’s calculation of team salary for the 09/10 season. I believe they would be allowed to apply for this at the conclusion of the coming season.

And (this is important) the process for that re-application is the same as the process for the original ruling.

In other words, the controlling determination is based upon medical evidence, not playing time. And in this case, everything I’ve read indicates that the medical evidence concerning the condition of Miles’s knee was fairly conclusive and overwhelming: his knee is in bad condition. Futhermore, that ‘bad condition’ was centered on the cartilage of the knee, and as far as I know, cartilage doesn’t self-repair. I remember reading that the doctor said that in some places of the knee, it was bone-on-bone action instead of the healthy and normal bone-cartilage-bone action. Another thing I remember reading is that the doctors have told Miles that he shouldn’t continue his basketball career because of the risk of permanent injury or disablility. Just because Miles makes a possibly imprudent decision to continue his career contrary to a doctor’s advise, and a team supports that unwise decision with an uninsured contract (and it would have to be uninsured because Miles couldn’t pass a physical) doesn’t mean that the medical conclusion was incorrect.

So if the controlling determination is a medical conclusion…and this section of the CBA certainly seems to state that is the case…then it seems quite likely that the determination next summer would be the same as the one this spring. That is that Miles has suffered a “career-ending” injury. It’s even possible that no further medical examination would be necessary because carilage can’t self-repair, and that original diagnosis was so conclusive and unambiguous.

My sense is that Portland has a real good chance of regaining the cap-space of the Miles contract even if he does play this coming season.

Finally, without seeing the agreement the NBA and the teams have with the insurance companies, it’s difficult to determine what the ramifications of all this is for insurance. But pondering the language and requirements of that section of the CBA, I suspect that it was written with insurance as a primary component. That would seem to further indicate that medical evidence controls the process and not playing time. Furthermore, while other team’s fans would like to see portland lose the cap-space, I would guess that the NBA and the other team’s front offices would adopt the opposite position. They pay enormous insurance premiums and I’m certain they don’t want to establish precedents, that medical conclusions can be reversed to the benefit of insurance companies at the expense of a team.

by moldorf on Jul 20, 2008 9:30 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

wow!

For not being an attorney, you sure sound like an attorney! Anyway, thanks for the in depth analysis, it helps explain the situation for sure. in essence; if he signs and plays 10 games, it goes against our cap. BUT, then the Blazers can petition the league to have it removed from the cap if it’s basically determined that even though he is playing, he has been advised by doctors that he should not be playing anymore or further endanger his health (career ending injury). I think that makes sense, and if that’s the case then I’m not too worried.

myspace.com/marktwainindians

by mark twain on Jul 20, 2008 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure

that the doctor’s advising him not to play is the most important medical evaluation in comparison to the fundamental conclusions regarding the condition of his knee.

That section seems to be fairly straight forward in defining how a “career-ending” injury is defined. And that is by an independent orthopedic surgeon. That standard has been met with Miles.

The uncertainty of course arises from the ‘fact” (I think this is true but not certain), that the process hasn’t gone to the point, that we are projecting in might go with Miles. Uncharted territory.

by moldorf on Jul 20, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You've almost got it

Miles’ salary would be added back to the Blazers’ team salary figure (ie, count against the cap) at the point in which he plays more than 10 games. If he stops playing again after playing those games, the Blazers can re-apply for cap relief, but they have to wait another year again after he stops playing (just like they had to wait at least a year the first time that they applied to have his salary taken off their team salary figure). By that time, the only issue would be most likely be possible [luxury] tax payment and not actual cap space, since it would be the middle or the end of the 2009-10 season by the time the Blazers would be able to re-apply.

For the Blazers to re-apply, Darius would have to stop playing (ie, be once again in career-ending injury status). Once a year had passed from the time he stops playing, then the team can re-apply.

by Storyteller on Jul 20, 2008 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok

that’s bad news for the Blazers and us.

myspace.com/marktwainindians

by mark twain on Jul 21, 2008 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see it as bad news

It’s a non-issue. Given Darius’ current state, I can’t see any team carrying him for a week much less a month and a half. People are getting worked up about a ‘potential’ situation that really has (IMO) no possibility of happening.

by Storyteller on Jul 21, 2008 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

I suppose what i mean is that it has the “potential” to be bad news, especially for us a top player in the free agent market next summer.

myspace.com/marktwainindians

by mark twain on Jul 21, 2008 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure I agree

with your interpretation. I will stipulate, I’m not an expert and could be wrong.

But I do not see any provision like you describe in that section of the CBA, at least insofar as the original injury is defined.

It does ‘loop around’ back to section 4 (h). However, it certainly seems that this section assigns the controlling determination to a medical conclusion and that playing time would only trump the medical conclusion after the fact. That medical conclusion is based upon an injury he suffered as a blazer. There is another section of the CBA that would seem to preclude portland form relief for any ainjury he suffered playing for another team.

Maybe one issue is, I don’t know that this section of the CBA has ever been tested before. Miles possibly could be the first so precisely how it is handled may be unclear.

In any event, having read that section entirely more often the I want, I’m unconvinced that either of us is correct about the exact process. Maybe it’s wishful thinking on my part.

by moldorf on Jul 22, 2008 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The real concern for Darius has always been the roster spot

He has been removed from the team due to a career ending injury. Therefore even if he dores play again, and Paul Allen has to pay him (not the insurance Co.) including luxury tax, so what we have him off our roster so that we can sign other more immportant players sucha as Batum.

Roster spot s has been the teams biggest limitqation not salary. Darius will never be on the Blazer roster again period; problem solved.

by NWfan on Jul 21, 2008 11:58 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh Yeah

That is a super good point. I felt it in my heart but never actually FELT it. He was always the guy in the way. I think the cap space stuff is pointless. It’s not like they are going to sign some guy to a max salary. The trade exception is there and that could be big if they traded for a max guy. Seriously, who is out there that needs that much money?

--. --- | -... .-.. .- --.. . .-. ...

by tominhawaii on Jul 21, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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