Summation of several Thorpe comments r/t Blazers plus POLL
by shwa on Jul 16, 2008 12:28 PM PDT
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PrintHaving browsed David Thorpe's chat earlier today I couldn't help but notice that the Blazers were brought up several times. Here are the questions and answers from that chat and some thoughts on what was said:
Demar (Chicago): Who will be the better guard, Jerryd Bayless or Eric Gordon?
David Thorpe: Bayless
No rebuttal needed on this one. At this point in time, Thorpe is on point. Eric Gordon should be solid as well, but I have a lot of confidence in BayBay becoming our answer at point, more than the haters at least who have been springing up despite his solid performances. Oh no, his J is shaky or he plays too much like Brandon. Wah, wah, wah, homie can ball.
Nathan (DC): Do you think that with Oden, the 2008-9 Rookies have their first legit chance to beat the Sophomores on all-star weekend? Or are Durant, Horford, Scola, etc. still too good?
Psh, assuming Oden, Fernandez, and Bayless participate in the Rookie-Sophomore game, how could you say they would get routed? Throw in Beasley, Rose, Mayo, Westbrook, and Love. I'd say it will at least be competitive. My guess is that Oden will be too good next year and will decide to pass playing in this game. I don't see Rudy being too stoked about trying to show-off with a bunch of rooks either.
John (Dallas, TX): Your thoughts on how terrible Nicholas Batum has been thus far?
Can't argue with statistics, or people's eyes for that matter. It has been plainly seen that Batum has underperformed, especially when he was perhaps touted as the most NBA-ready of all our draft picks Now he's no higher than third on that list as Bayless and Koponen have impressed.
Willie (Portland, OR): Do you think Portland will sign Koponen, or send him back to Europe? I think this kid can make an impact this season, he looks really good.
Juan (Dallas, TX): Have Bayless & Peterri Koponen showed enough that the Blazers need to be looking for a taker for Steve Blake?
I think Portland should sign and keep Koponen. The fact that he's playing well now adds to the likelihood that he's offered a lucrative long-term contract somewhere in Europe. If not now, maybe never on this kid, and I think we like him enough a snatch him up right now even though he's not absolutely needed.
It's interesting to me that Thorpe see's Blake as being a necessary component to our team should it "win." I don't know if Thorpe's use of "win" means "win it all" as in championship, or just "win games" in general. I disagree on both counts in any case. I love Blake and he would make for an excellent back-up, but I don't think his presence or lack thereof would significantly alter next season's win-loss totals, or our ability to compete for a championship for that matter. Rondo, Cassell and House just won a championship. When Oden, Roy, Aldridge, and even guys like Fernandez, Frye, Outlaw, and Webster are hitting their stride, I could be playing point. Mateen Cleaves could be playing point. It won't matter, Bayless will be the guy in the future and it would be nice to have Blake around as a back-up, but how important is a back-up PG in terms of wins?
Also, Thorpe contradicts himself by saying that he heard a rumor PetKo will get signed even though above he stated that he didn't know if Portland would sign him:
wil (yuba city, ca): Is Petteri Koponen ready for the NBA? I like what I see from him so far in summer league
Dan (Portland): Dave, instead of using a traditional PG, do you think Portland will just go with Roy and Bayless and let them drive and score from the wing?
So now Thorpe suggests (as many others have in the past) that we still need a top notch PG to "compete at a high level." PSH! Please, like I said before, Mateen Cleaves would win rings with us.
Harry Manback (Portland, OR): If things get dicey with Chicago and Deng, does it make sense for Portland to pursue him in a sign-and-trade, or do they need more of a distance shooter at the 3?
So I guess Thorpe's answer would be "No, we don't need a distance shooter at the 3" if he thinks Deng would be perfect for us. I agree we don't need to be shooting a lot of 3s in the first place, but trading for Deng would likely have us including Webster in the deal, since it's hard to imagine Deng, Webster, and Outlaw coexisting with limited minutes. Martell will be money for us next season, his life will be easy and he can shoot open 3s whenever he wants. He will also be able to slash to the bucket more since he will be other team's last priority on our starting unit. And you know what else? Webster IMO is already better than Deng. Luol fell off a little last year and wasn't nearly as impressive as the year before. Martell on the other hand got better and showed us that he still has plenty of untapped potential. I didn't even mention the fact that we have no dukies on the roster and there's no reason to start now.
Jordan (Slinger, WI): Are Marc Gasol and Rudy Fernandez for real? Seriously better than Rose and Mayo?
better than Rose and Mayo? Come on Dave.
Not many would say they'd rather have Rudy and Marc Gasol over Rose and Mayo. But at least it shows that most respect the work Rudy has already done to make it this far. He's definitely a special player worth cultivating and hopefully we can find a niche for him on this team for a long time.
Lenny K: Pure talent please your Top 5 rookies?
Rose
Randolph
Bayless
Greene
Again, either Thorpe doesn't think of Oden as a true rookie or he is simply a hater. Bayless has more pure talent than Oden or Fernandez...uh...we'll wait to see about that one. I'm pretty sure he just forgot about Oden somehow, because Greene and Randolph definitely don't have more "pure talent" that Greg, whatever that means.
g (nyc): is it possible Oden can be as bad as Kwame Brown? i mean, is it even possible?
Good answer, however Thorpe then goes on to say that he thinks Craig Smith is the strongest player in the league (I would currently argue Dwight Howard) and that JJ Hickson will be the strongest rookie this year. Huh? Uh, what about Greg Oden?! A guy in Houston actually calls him out on it but he stands pat by his first ridiculous answer:
Tye (Houston TX): You don't think Greg Oden is the dtrongest guy in the league? He has to be the strongest rookie
He gets called out a 2nd time and this is his response:
Sidney Lowe (NC State BBall Coach): JJ Hickson stronger then Greg Oden? Laughable!
All-in-all, interesting stuff. The Blazers were mentioned more than any other team by far which shows the buzz is not restrained to blogs like this one. The word is out on Ptown, even if it does lead to people being slightly more misinformed like some of Thorpe's comments suggest he is.
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Deng for Webster, straight up?
DO IT!
And IMO, it’s not even close.
Witty Unpredictable Talent and Natural Game
I disagree completely
Nate loves Martell and I think Sarge would get irritated if any more moves were made this summer. It’s going to be hard enough to integrate like 4 or 5 new guys into the rotation. Did any of you watch Deng last season? I just don’t get what is so impressive. I can’t believe how much you all undervalue Webster. It’s not going to matter in any case, Webster won’t be traded and he will kill for us this season.
"You can't buy your woman a watch because she got a clock on the stove."-Sir Charles Barkley
Undervalue Webster?
How so? We’re not talking about trading him for a scrub, we’re talking about Luol Deng. The fact that we’re talking about this trade as a possibility itself, shows we don’t undervalue Webster.
Witty Unpredictable Talent and Natural Game
poll dont lie
"You can't buy your woman a watch because she got a clock on the stove."-Sir Charles Barkley
by shwa on Jul 16, 2008 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The poll is who is the better long-term fit in portland.
Not who is the better player. As far as who is a better player, no doubt its Luol Deng. But when you consider who is the better fit long-term, I think the answer is Webster. The main reason for this is that Luol Deng is a horrific 3 pt shooter, its simply not his game. We all saw how important 3pt shooting is from our sf after watching Jones and his one trick show. Add Oden to the team and outside shooting becomes even more important, we cant have guys sagging off of a Deng type player, and clogging the middle.
If you took Deng off of the bulls and replaced him with Webster, they would be worse off, no doubt about it. If you took Webster off this team, and replaced him with Deng, I am not sure we are any better, just different. I don’t think having a sf that was primarily a slasher and scorer would be good in our mix of talent. And yes, we cant trust any poll on this site that compares one our players to another teams player. Homers rule!!!
RUDY > MJ
Homers all!!!
“Rondo, Cassell and House just won a championship.”
Uh, duh. Cassell is a great veteran who has won titles in Houston besides Boston. He raises his teams to higher levels. Rondo is clearly very talented if a bit young. House is a servicable back-up with a few nice aspects to his game. House reminds me of a more steady Jarrett Jack, less up side if Jarrett gets his head straight (woulda never happened here—too much comp).
Luol for Webster. Duh. I don’t even care if we keep him. Luol would be serious trade bait.
Letting James Jones go? Shows we are committed to winning … in the long term. Not next year, not at the sacrifice of playing time for our youngsters. We are committed to seeing through our high school prospects hoping one will claim the spot, unless we get lucky with Batum (good luck, anybody say “project”) or KP pulls another fast one to shore up the 3 spot and the 3-point shooting.
Is the plan to run more next year? Rebound, fast break, bingo-bango-bongo and-a boom-shaka-laka! That would be beautiful!
Webster ain’t bad. He might have enough to stick. But if he doesn’t take it to the next level this year, I’m callin’ all y’all on this poll.
'77
Deng is better now & more talented for the future than Webster
Deng has proven it. Last year which has been widely considered an off year for him was 17 pts. per game, 6 rebounds and 48% from the field.
His 3 point shooting will continue to improve too.
2007-08 Statistics
PPG 17.0 RPG 6.30 APG 2.5 EFF + 16.78 Born: Apr 16, 1985
Height: 6-9 / 2,06
Weight: 220 lbs. / 99,8 kg.
College: Duke
Years Pro: 4
poll dont lie
"You can't buy your woman a watch because she got a clock on the stove."-Sir Charles Barkley
by shwa on Jul 16, 2008 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
as did I
we are in the minority it appears. To me, saying Webster>Deng on BE would be tantamount to Blog-a-Bull announcing that Ben Gordon > Roy. Ok, maybe not quite that crazy, but Webster is below average for an NBA starter (47th best SF according to PER) and Deng is an all-star caliber player who had a bit of a down year (15th best SF in PER last year). Outlaw vs. Deng is a lot closer, but Deng wins that comparison also.
Boomshakalaka
Lol are you kidding
It’s not even close! I don’t even know how to type out a substantial rebuttal to this opinion. We’ll talk about this when Webster averages 17 ppg, if that ever happens.
A Time For Heroes,
It's not right for young lungs to be coughing up blood
And it's all
It's all in my hands
And its all up the walls
Well the stale chips were up and the hopes stakes were down
Until Kp came into Town!
'Sing it Petey!
This is the kind of thing
that makes me wonder if blazer fans ever watch anything other than blazer games. I mean, seriously, webster over deng? Deng’s a top 10 sf, I’m not sure Webster cracks the top 30.
by howlingfantods on Jul 16, 2008 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions
check out Abbott gave Bayless the early MVP nod
“MOST VALUABLE PLAYER: Jerryd Bayless, Blazers
In both of the games he has played, he has been the best player on the court and it hasn’t been close. Using his speed and exceptional handle to set up defenders, the combo guard has made a living at the charity stripe, attempting a two-game total of 39 freebies (making 31). He followed up his 28-point, four-rebound debut against the Wizards by hanging 26 and six on the Kings.”
"You can't buy your woman a watch because she got a clock on the stove."-Sir Charles Barkley
A couple things
I agree w/ all your input. I think the reason he ‘hates’ on Oden is b/c he most likely feels that
a) he isn’t a true rookie
b) thorpes in the he-has-yet- to-play-1-game club and its been a year and 1/2 since college etc blah blah blah
basically everyone knows Oden is a beast no one wants to talk about it b/c of the injury
That which prematurely arrives at perfection soon perishes. - Marcus Fabius Quintilian (35-95AD) Roman Rhetorician, Critic
What ever happened to HarryManBack?
He used to be a real player in these parts…
Playing basketball... is like playing poker while running on a treadmill at full speed with people swinging a Louisville Slugger at you. -Dave on 95.5 The Game
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jul 16, 2008 12:50 PM PDT reply actions
Its hard to take him seriously....
With how much he contradicts himself even in the little snips you provided….
RUDY > MJ
Somebody just show him a picture of GO already!
BTW, Deng is nice, but I think Webster fits our offense better. Defensively, I may give the edge to Deng, but Webster has improved something every summer and I have no doubt his defense will improve.
Webster’s game has hints of greatness in it.
Deng’s game has hints of early NBA exit in it.
Both Teams Played Hard
Both Teams Played Hard
Both Teams Played Hard
uh one thing
It has been plainly seen that Batum has underperformed, especially when he was perhaps touted as the most NBA-ready of all our draft picks
Batum is widely known as a raw 19 year old prospect with high potential- I don’t know anyone that was familiar with him who thought he was NBA-ready…
That poll is hilarious!
OMG, you guys, Deng or Webster? You’re all playin’ right? You’re trying to tell me you think Martell is the better option?
You guys are cute. I love you all.
WWSBD?
yeah 4 real
A Time For Heroes,
It's not right for young lungs to be coughing up blood
And it's all
It's all in my hands
And its all up the walls
Well the stale chips were up and the hopes stakes were down
Until Kp came into Town!
'Sing it Petey!
rec'd
Vote Sam Bowie as Greatest "Other" Blazer Ever.
by Outlaw is Rejector on Jul 16, 2008 2:47 PM PDT reply actions
Rather have Martell
I’ve repeated my points about Webster for two
years now, and they haven’t changed.
1. He’d be going into his senior year in college this season.
2. Great shooters take longer to develop than slasher/scorers.
3. He just “got it” last summer when he bought into Nate’s call
for defense. He also improved in several areas due to workouts
last summer.
4. He’s a great deep shooter, but has struggled with consistancy.
Shooting will be greatly improved this year with the addition of
GO on the post. GO will draw the double, believe me. He’s a BEAST !
5. Martell is working on improving his footwork and handle to become
more of a threat to drive. We saw moments of attacking this last
season, but I think slashes to the bucket will increase greatly.
6. Defense is one of the hardest skills for young immature players
to grasp. Martell has a NBA body, with above average lateral quickness.
That he has “bought in” to being a D stopper is half the battle.
He has the tools to be a very good defender.
7. Shooters who can move without the ball, or learn to catch & shoot
(ala Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton) on the curl around the pick are
a premium. Martell showed some signs of becoming that type of shooter
during last season.
8. Martell’s rebounding and assists improved last year, and with work
and maturity will continue to improve with GO in the middle.
9. Martell is a nice kid, who has grown up with this group and
is a part of the CULTURE.
10. He’s a NW guy and will want to stay here, maybe for a little less.
11. Martell has proven not to be greedy about shots. Perhaps too
passive, but the 3pt specialists many times have to float to the corners
for spacing.
12. If he adds ball handling/driving improvement (up-fake)to more
consistant outside shooting and continues to improve on defense,
we have an future All-Star at SF.
Deng is a better player right now, but he’s an outsider who may
not fit in with our Team. Martell needs to continue to improve and
grow with this team and he will be part of the best SF tandem in
the league.
P.S. – 30 + year Blazermaniac = HOMER – Blazervision> COINCAST
It's GO time !
by walkoff41 on Jul 16, 2008 3:35 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Great post.
I think Martell’s only weakness is mental. Not that he’s an idiot or anything, but I think he might struggle with similar kinds of confidence issues that seemed to plague Jack.
"I think it’s going to be very beautiful game next year."
-Batuuuuuuuum!
by rockingharder on Jul 16, 2008 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
12 Martell Webster's and a Comcast Sucks a Rotten Egg
Rather have Martell I’ve repeated my points about Webster for two
years now, and they haven’t changed.
1. He’d be going into his senior year in college this season. Deng is only 23
2. Great shooters take longer to develop than slasher/scorers. Deng shot .36% 3pt last year showing massive improvement Webster has always been a 3 pt specialist
3. He just "got it" last summer when he bought into Nate’s call
for defense. He also improved in several areas due to workouts
last summer.Yes, we read an article about Nate wanting Martell to focus on defense, but we haven’t actually seen him do it
4. He’s a great deep shooter, but has struggled with consistancy.true
Shooting will be greatly improved this year with the addition of
GO on the post. GO will draw the double, believe me. He’s a BEAST !
5. Martell is working on improving his footwork and handle to become
more of a threat to drive. We saw moments of attacking this last
season, but I think slashes to the bucket will increase greatly.Deng will probably always be a better slasher/finisher
6. Defense is one of the hardest skills for young immature players
to grasp. Martell has a NBA body, with above average lateral quickness.
That he has "bought in" to being a D stopper is half the battle.
He has the tools to be a very good defender.Deng is taller/longer and more defensively aware
7. Shooters who can move without the ball, or learn to catch & shoot
(ala Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton) on the curl around the pick are
a premium. Martell showed some signs of becoming that type of shooter
during last season.I agree this is something Webster does better
8. Martell’s rebounding and assists improved last year, and with work
and maturity will continue to improve with GO in the middle.Deng played 33 minutes to Web’s 28, but Deng doubled Web in Rebounding, steal, blocks & assists
9. Martell is a nice kid, who has grown up with this group and
is a part of the CULTURE.Deng has fantastic character
10. He’s a NW guy and will want to stay here, maybe for a little less.I don’t like the huskies
11. Martell has proven not to be greedy about shots. Perhaps too
passive, but the 3pt specialists many times have to float to the corners
for spacing.OK, but he has to hit those wide open ones that he misses if he isn’t in rhythmn… you can actually see Webster thinking
12. If he adds ball handling/driving improvement (up-fake)to more
consistant outside shooting and continues to improve on defense,
we have an future All-Star at SF If If IF ….. Deng already has those abilities
With all that said I recommended your post and I will recommend all of your future posts until I am no longer blacked out due to the comcast monopoly
Deng
got all his stats inflated because he is one of the top two options on a really bad team least year. Martell was never higher than our third option at any given point.
"You can't buy your woman a watch because she got a clock on the stove."-Sir Charles Barkley
So by this argument, since Deng had
even better stats the year before on a very good team, what does that mean?
by howlingfantods on Jul 16, 2008 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
it means his value
is lower than his stats would indicate since he can’t help his team win
"You can't buy your woman a watch because she got a clock on the stove."-Sir Charles Barkley
Absurd statement.
Even mega superstars can’t guarantee that their team is always a winning one. Remember MJ before he got his supporting cast?
And no one is calling Deng the second coming, but what he is is a very good complementary player, which is what we’re looking for. And yes, he is a much better complementary player than Martell, if you asked this ridiculous comparison around actual NBA people, they wouldn’t even bother responding except with total incredulity.
I get that you’re a homer and you like Martell, but get real, man. KP would be dancing in the streets if he swindled Paxson and managed to get Deng without giving up our core 3.
by howlingfantods on Jul 17, 2008 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
one point
“Deng shot .36% 3pt last year showing massive improvement Webster has always been a 3 pt specialist”
Deng made 8 three point shots last year, only attempted 22. That may be 36%, but he is not a 3 point shooter by anymeans. For me, our sf simply has to be able to make a 3 point shot consistenty, Deng cannot do that. He is a heck of a player though, just not a fit here in P-town….
RUDY > MJ
Just a bit OT...
And I don’t mean to pick on this post especially, but this is kind of coming to a head for me. I REALLY am tired of the term “hater”.
Just because someone disagrees with your point of view about a certain player, or they raise concerns about a certain player, or a certain player is not listed among their top three of all time, etc… Does not make them “haters”. People have different ideas about things and throwing labels like “hater” around does nothing to further your ideas.
Hate is a strong emotion that should be reserved for truly reprehensible people, places or things, it isn’t a label to be thrown out lightly.
I’m through now. Hate me as you will.
"I love this game!" -Moonbeam, from 'Rollerball' right before he was knocked into a permanent coma
my obvious urge
is to call u a hater…but…I won’t. You’re just incorrect in how I meant for the term to be implied…for which I apologize…I guess. Simply put, what I argued was that if Thorpe wasn’t ignoring Oden’s presence as a rookie, he had to be hating to not have him in his top 5 rookies talent-wise. Look at BlazerFan1’s comments way up above, he breaks down the term “hate” already for me. So instead of blasphemizing why don’t you actually read others posts instead of just posting your own…hater.
"You can't buy your woman a watch because she got a clock on the stove."-Sir Charles Barkley
I read all of Blazerfan1's posts...
‘She’ is a great writer.
"I love this game!" -Moonbeam, from 'Rollerball' right before he was knocked into a permanent coma
by -ken on Jul 16, 2008 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thorpe didn't exactly "have to be hating"
He could just be forgetful, especially because Oden wasn’t drafted this year. Us Blazer fans know that Oden is quite possibly the most talented rook, but others forget that he is a rookie because he sat out a year.
"I think it’s going to be very beautiful game next year."
-Batuuuuuuuum!
by rockingharder on Jul 16, 2008 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Plus who cares
whether he’s the strongest or not? This is basketball, not weightlifting or strongest man competition, yes? Kareem Abdul Jabbar, not a very strong cat, one of the top 3 centers all time. Mark Eaton, fricking fairy tale monster giant, kind of a scrub.
Plus what folks tend to talk about when talking strength is upper body stuff, which isn’t nearly as important as a strong base. Dwight Howard probably beats the hell out of Tim Duncan arm wrestling, but Duncan gets to his spots and doesn’t get moved, dig?
by howlingfantods on Jul 16, 2008 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Top 5 rookies include Rose
but not Gasol or Rudy, yet he says they’ll be better than Rose this year. OK, whatever.
Deng is definitely better than Martell, and KP pulls the trigger on a 1 for 1 in a heartbeat. But Martell’s skill set fits better, so KP wouldn’t be willing to give up much to do that upgrade. But next year tells the tale for Mar-tell. If he doesn’t improve again, we’ll be looking to upgrade, and Deng wouldn’t be a bad option.
You are underselling Blake’s importance. When we were without Steve last year, we were awful. We don’t need a star at PG, but you do need someone who can take care of the ball and hit an open shot. And this team is young, young, young. With Blake, you’ve got a guy with some experience at the position where experience matters most.
If we traded Blake now, we’d be in big trouble unless we got an established NBA PG out of the deal. Maybe by mid-season Bayless can take Steve’s role, but without Steve, we’ll be toast in the early season, and the West is too tough to fall too far behind.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
Thorpe specified
that that second top 5 list is pure talent. He gauges his top rookies of the year running report based on playing time, effort, ability, role, and so on, not just talent. Hence, the list looks different when someone else asks about pure talent.
Not really all that hard to understand…
I guess I’ll pitch in here and mention that although Thorpe sometimes overvalues players he has a professional relationship with, he generally has more accurate prospect evaluations than anyone else on ESPN, from what I’ve seen over the past few years. For what that’s worth.
by howlingfantods on Jul 17, 2008 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
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