I went to a statistical physics talk about sports today
First let me throw out what I thought was an interesting question that this talk brought up. Does the NBA need to figure out a way to get more parity to increase the popularity of the sport? Asked in another way, are there enough upsets in the NBA to make it interesting? If not, is it worth investigating means of making better league parity to make the game more exciting?
Onto the recap of the talk; what happens when you take a bunch of nerds who dont really like sports and make them listen to a talk about sports for an hour. A lot of eye rolling and uninspired technical questions.
I would say the talk was pretty uninspiring as the work did not seem that new or interesting as they guy was basically flipping a weighted coin to determine the outcome with the weights being based on each teams record. After he introduced this seemingly overly basic method of determining wins he went on to something I found to be more interesting. He made a basic formula for rate of upsets which is the number of times the lesser ranked opponent beat the higher ranked opponent divided by the number of games played. The NBA had the lowest rate of upsets, which prompted me to come up with the question at the start of the post. The rest of the talk was about different scenarios like playoffs and tournaments but nothing that was that interesting or even predictive. Finally he got into his true motivation which is studying competition in other phenomena where data is less readily available. Again I would say this stuff is not too exciting and I doubt it has much predictive power, but I need to go over this a bit and run some simulations to see what happens.
Thanks for reading. I have to get back to nerding it up.
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I may be a contrarian on this because I know the NFL is the most popular league
but I find the parity in the NFL boring. I’ve completely lost interest in professional football when at one time it was my favorite sport. I chalk the disinterest up to parity. When any team can beat any other team then the outcome almost seems random and there aren’t any true upsets. It also makes crazy bounces of the ball or poor officiating any even bigger deciding factor in who wins the game. I might as well be watching some bimbo roll craps in Vegas, which come to think of it probably would be more interesting.
Please, please don’t kill the excitement of a real upset in the NBA like they have in the NFL.
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by LaughingJon on Jun 30, 2008 7:25 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
That seems like a good point
Based on this guys definition of parity, the rate of upsets, the NFL has been on an uptick for years and now matches that of the NBA. It is just that the NBA has had consistently low parity throughout its history. I see your point though. Thanks for commenting.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
Well..
I think the scoring frequency has something to do with parity, right? In football, you can score a touchdown, onside kick, recover and score another one in the blink of an eye. It’s rare, but it can happen. That’s a 14-point swing, which is often more than the sum of the team’s scores combined. This makes for a sort of powder-keg scenario where luck wins out a la crap-playing bimbos. With basketball, the bell curve HAS to be less extreme, right? Seeing as how the last minute can last a half hour with intentional fouls and free throws literally at 1 or 2 points a possession (which is usually 1/100th the total score for a team) there’s going to be some smoothness there, right? Just like there’d be way fewer upsets if you made the two NFL teams play six times and whoever scored the most aggregate was called the winner.
Just puttin’ it out there for the nerds.. I’d like to know!
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
I think you nailed it
that your 14 point swing scenario happens with an extremely low probability so when you average over all of the games played that season then a rare event like that is not significant.
At first guess I would say that scoring frequency has nothing to do with parity and more to do with style of play. I think we could still have league wide parity, whether or not that is a good thing is debatable, and still have slow and fast paced teams. So that is good news for the Carslisles and Nelsons of the NBA.
I would also throw out that using winning percentage to weight winners might not be as good as using point difference.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
Thanks..
I just took about 20min to respond, but I hit “cancel” instead of “post”.
Apologies for my abruptness, but here’s the gist:
There are generally around 40-50 scoring possessions per team in a normal basketball exhibition. In football, that number is closer to four (at best) (ish). So, when you’re talking about upsets, one play (50/51 VS. 4/5) is much more weighted towards a football upset, regardless the point differential, right? Sorry, I put it much better before it was deleted, but that was kind of the point I put forth.
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
This is interesting
but I would say this about the model that I am talking about. It does not care about final scores and historically football actually had a lower rate of upsets as defined by the team with the poorer win % beating the team with the higher winning % so the idea that football inherently has better parity due to the nature of the number of scoring possessions made is not supported by the data. Interestingly enough Soccer and Baseball had the greatest parity of the five leagues analyzed, which might support your theory better with football being the outlier.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
Interesting thread
To increase parity, you need to increase the likelyhood of upsets. To do this, you typically have to insert random variables. You could go down to one official per game, which would mean more missed calls and more likelyhood of an upset. Probably not worth it. You could alter the rules such that offensive or defensive skill was rewarded less than it is currently. i.e. I suck, you don’t, but I score on you only slightly less as often as you on me. You could have players foul out after 4 fouls, getting the stars out more quickly, and reducing the dominance of great defensive players.
A longer shot clock might reduce the effects of athleticism and would reduce the total number of possesions, leading to lower scores and greater chances of upsets. Of course, single elimination in the playoffs or best of 3 or 5 would do the trick.
All in all, though, I kinda like the imbalance, what with Oden and all…
by Engineering Problem on Jun 30, 2008 8:18 PM PDT reply actions
Random variables
if they are random would have mean of 0 so they should not effect parity when taken over many (how ambiguous is that) games. The speaker brought up 2 points about the NFL, reversed record draft, which the NBA does not employ, and schedules that are tougher for last years better teams. We could revert back to the olden days for the draft, but the second one would be less likely to occur, but we would just need to make sure that we played teams an equal amount of times or close to it.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
Parity
You’re correct that random variables net to zero. However, think of the Sonics playing the Celtics in Boston. Boston takes that game 95% of the time. If you put 10 points of randomness in there, you’ll get blowouts by 40 instead of 30, but the Sonics also win the games they would’ve otherwise lost by 8 points. i.e. the Celts win 80% (or whatever) of the time instead of 95%.
Another way to look at it: if fatigue, off nights, unlucky bounces, and other random events were not an issue, the better team would win 100% of the time, which they don’t.
by Engineering Problem on Jun 30, 2008 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions
How do you define better
There is a hidden random variable in this analysis. Let me try and flesh it out in this example say you have a team that wins 30% of the time and they play another team that wins 70% of the time. To guess the winner you would generate a random number between 0 and 1, If that number is less than or equal to .3 then you give the win to the team with a 30% winning percentage and if it is not then you give it to the team with the 70% winning percentage. That is one game according to the model.
So in modeling these games a score was never mocked up so adding a random variable in the score would not help. Also it seems that you would have to change the parameters of the distribution depending on the match up, but if you model the games as described above you always keep the same distribution parameters so it seems less ad hoc.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
Not to nitpick
But you just pointed out a random number that has a mean value that is not 0 (zero) but rather 0.5. All with the simple application of boundary conditions, in this case 0 and 1. Boundary conditions define the mean as well as the distribution. In the above example, there is an equal distirbution of probabuility of gettting any number between 0 and 1. However, when you include a “hidden” random variable, that may have a normal distribution (bell curve for the non -geeks) or a binomial or any other distribution.
In summary, just let them play the game because no amount of modeling of outcomes will be as exciting as watching them play.
Right
In general, the mean of a random variable can be any (real) number. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_variable.
If we view the outcome of NBA games as a random variable, it’s a bernoulli random variable, with mean bounded between 0 and 1. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli_distribution. Because the outcome of games is always Bernoulli, the amount of variance in the outcomes is also quite limited.
I would define an upset in the following way: If X* is the underlying “strength” of team 1 and Y* is the underlying “strength” of team 2, an upset occurs if X>Y and team 2 beats team 1 (or if X and team 1 bests team 2). The proprotion of upsets comes from how the combination of X* and Y* map onto the outcome of the game.
I’d view both X* and Y* as random variables (since on some days some humans perform better than on other days). So, suppose X>Y, both are normally distributed with equal variance (sigma2)... you could use different distributions, but it doesn’t really matter.
The are three many factors that will determine the number of upsets, given these defenitions.
1) How close X* and Y* are to each other. Ceteris paribus, the closer X* is to Y* the more upsets (so long as they are not equal). This is simply the idea of teams with roughly equivalent skills are likely to be evenly matched; it’s probably what most people have in mind when they talk about parity. There are more upsets in the NFL than in college football because teams are
2) The size of the variance (sigma2). The larger the variance, the more upsets, ceteris paribus. Is basketball a game where your performance depends a lot on your mood? What you ate for breakfast? Whatever? I do not know. This is something I would need to think about. If you compare soccer to basketball, I’d think that the variance is greater because the process that generates points in soccer has more variation in than the process that generates points in basketball.
3) How many times the two teams play. It should be obvious that outcome of a playoff series is also a bernoulli variable, but there will be fewer upsets, ceteris paribus, in the playoffs than in any single game. This is the main reason that there are more upsets in the NCAA tournament than in the NBA playffoffs.
4) How many possessions in the game. As Engineering problem pointed out, the more possessions in a game, the higher the liklihood that the better team will prevail, ceteris paribus. The underlying principle is the same as in point three, but it’s probably not noticed as frequently… One of the major reasons that there a fewer upsets in the NBA than in the NFL is that there are far, far more possesions in NBA game than in NFL football. If an NBA game was 12 possessions, there were be far more upsets than we see today.
You could treat strenght as random variables
but the point is they are getting analytic solution with their current method and they would not get that by making team strength a random variable and from this you can get the scaling laws talked about in the paper.
Also, if you look at the paper the NBA has more upsets than the NFL although the NFL is trending upward
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
what is wrong with that?
Changing the mean of a Gaussian distribution does not change the mean. If you have a decent random number generator you should be getting Gaussian distribution for large samples as that is the limit of Lorentzian distributions.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
Look, I'm a nerd
but I really don’t feel like discussing any of this stuff right now.
Say, jonestr, can you just tell me what I missed in “The greatest Q and A with tominhawaii that you probably wont [sic] read”?
"Shoot, I don't even have anything to put in my own sig"
These are the modest words of pualo, posted on June 20, 2008.
Yes, pualo, an extraordinarily discerning BEdger with a knack for subtle expression.
I dont get it
of course a nerd would feel like discussing nerdy things. That is what makes a nerd a nerd!
You missed a couple of really nice tominhawaiiisms including a Garth Brooks quote.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
A little more
Fellow nerds, I’m not a statistical guy but I’ve been a professional software developer for a long as many of you have been alive so I certainly dwell in nerdland despite getting my degree in social science. And it’s that social science education that motivates this comment.
I see part of the problem of relying on the statistical analysis being that it (by design) strives to eliminate the emotional element. And yet the very word “upset” is based on the emotions. So yes, if the statistical analysis predicts one team ought to win over another and it doesn’t eventuate then you could label it an upset. But with the perceived parity of the NFL when the underdog wins it’s rarely that upsetting. It leads to a shrug of the shoulders because the perception is any team can win at any time.
One example: this last year’s Super Bowl. We just witnessed one of the greatest upsets in NFL history. The better than average Giants beat the mighty undefeatd, perfect Patriots. And yet a few months later nobody is talking about it. Why? Because the perception is that in the NFL there are no longer any big upsets. Anything can happen. (YAWN).
Finally, what we try to do in social sciences is weld the statistical scientific approach to human behavior. I invite all of you to focus on infusing the emotional element into your formulas and improve the science part of the social sciences. Keep up the good work.
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