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Great Draft, but....

Let me start by saying that I’m thrilled with the draft last night and the move to get Bayless. Thrilled! From all the rumors I read leading up to the draft that had us parting with A LOT more to land a quality PG to only have to part with JJack and McBob was a huge triumph, I think.

Having said that, I am really disappointed with a how many of our fans behaved with regards to Jarrett Jack. Like most fans, I was Ok with JJack going in the Bayless deal, but the way he was treated post-trade has left a bad taste in my mouth. From fans cheering when his name was mentioned in a trade BEFORE the other part of the deal was announced; the "hit the road Jack" crap; some of the comments I’ve read, etc.  From my perspective, despite his somewhat regular mistakes (stepping out of bounds, timely turnovers…), I thought the guy always played hard, represented himself and his team with dignity, and from all reports was a great locker room guy. He wasn’t a cancer, didn’t get into trouble and was one of the good guys as we transitioned from the Jail Blazer era. Even if he was the 15th-best player on our team a "good look JJ, here’s hoping your next stop works out better…." Something similar to what McBob got.

It’s funny, I had a draft party last night with some friends/family last night – some of them huge fans others were there to humor me – and when Danilo went with the 6th pick and the NY fans started to boo many of us commented on how classless their fans were. Of course, I chimed in with the usual "Well those are just fickle NY fans; our fans are so much better – we’d never do that to one of our players"… It's not like we booed him, but I wanted a bit more "we'll miss you"; or "thanks for everything you've done" (By the way, thanks for the

Sorry, I’ve never posted here before and don’t want my first post to be of the whiny, self-righteous variety, but I just wanted to call out some of the fans that I thought were being a bit, well, un-fanlike. Maybe I’m missing something here – wouldn’t be the first time, but I expected more from us….

By the way, I was excited to see the Jarrett Jack appreciation thread that was started and enjoyed reading everyone’s posts there! I would have posted this there, but this is less a "Jarrett Jack appreciation" thread and more of a "C'mon fans, we can do better than that" thread.

Go Blazers!

18 recs | Comment 157 comments

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I completely agree

I was thinking the same thing last night. It’s possible that some of the fans know something I(we) don’t, but I do think it was a really poor display by the home team. Overall, I think the fans here in Portland are quite good, but there’s always a segment of the fanbase that you’d like to hide under a rock.

Oh my, there go da game!

by Gravitate on Jun 27, 2008 2:54 PM PDT   0 recs

They're the former LAX fans

As soon as their team lost the Finals, they jumped to a different bandwagon. True Blazer fans would never have been so crude.

by Steve The Hedge on Jun 27, 2008 2:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Probably

Even though I haven’t lived in Vancouver for about 4 years now, I still remember all the bandwagon Laker fans. Gross.

Boston coach Doc Rivers said he was surprised by the firing of Saunders.
"I don't understand it," Rivers said. "It makes coaching not fun."

by Dheepan on Jun 27, 2008 2:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

that the cheering was bad, bad, bad… However, I think it’s ok for those of us that have wanted him traded for awhile to be excited about it. That being said, it should always be done with dignity and class, and for that, I give you a rec.

myspace.com/marktwainindians

by mark twain on Jun 27, 2008 2:57 PM PDT   0 recs

Yeah definitely.

But BE isn’t like that look at the Appreciation thread. AND the guy that made a d-bag post about Indiana was run out of town.

Boston coach Doc Rivers said he was surprised by the firing of Saunders.
"I don't understand it," Rivers said. "It makes coaching not fun."

by Dheepan on Jun 27, 2008 2:57 PM PDT   0 recs

Good post

JJ was always a hard worker and a team guy. I wish him well in Indy, and hope he regains a starting job someday.
As for the Blazer fans who cheered when he was traded, those are the kind of fans that we don’t need.

by koyote on Jun 27, 2008 2:59 PM PDT   0 recs

agreed

Like I said in the open draft thread last night, not classy, Portland, not at all. I very nearly turned off the radio feed when I heard those jerks start singing in the background, because I can’t stand that kind of “fandom”. It’s why I hang around here—I’m glad that we’re above all that, for the most part.

by abdelnaby on Jun 27, 2008 3:00 PM PDT   0 recs

Jarrett is still da Man

And he is gonna get cheered loudly next time he steps foot in the Rose Garden.

He’s a consummate professional: always working very hard to improve his game; always accepts responsibility for his mistakes; tries to carry the team on his back at crunch time; fearlessly takes the ball to the rim; doesn’t back down from anyone; great off-court character; a model citizen; someone I would instruct my son to emulate; a total team player; not afraid to face his weaknesses and struggle to overcome them; completely dedicated to being the very best player and person he can be.

I wish him the very best and I wish he was still a Blazer. A class act. A total complete unadulterated class act.

Winning is everything.

by MT Suit on Jun 27, 2008 3:03 PM PDT   0 recs

I didn't like Jack as a player

As a person he seemed nice enough. I never met the guy. I kind of doubt many of us has spent quality time with him.

I didn’t cheer when I learned about his departure, but I certainly didn’t bat an eyelash either. It has been expected for a long time.

The level to which fans relate and connect with players has always kind of shocked me. This phenomenon is especially prevalent in Portland. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that we are unacquainted with true celebrity, and our small town is sometimes mistaken for a big city. As the Helio Sequence adroitly noticed about our burg: “everyone knows everyone/ everyone knows what everyone does.”

I certainly don’t want to disparage Jack: I’m nothing but ambivalent towards his departure. However, I do want to openly question the emotional fan response to any player leaving the team. For example: last year when people got in my face because I dared say “good riddance to bad rubbish” when we traded Randolph.

But seriously, does anyone think we as fans “owe” these players anything?

BLZRS FRVR

by nightbluefruit on Jun 27, 2008 3:10 PM PDT   0 recs

thats probably it

Every knew he was going, so there was no stomach punch to be had. Just excitement for the future.

Joel Freeland=Stud

by hightide on Jun 27, 2008 3:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I wasn't there

but could the cheer have been for the fact that a trade had been made, and not necessarily that Jack was the one being traded. Let’s face it, he had the highest expectation to be traded of everyone, so if there was going to be a trade, he was going to be in on it. When they announced his name as part of a trade, it did two things: announced that there was a trade, and announced that Jack would be leaving. So (not having heard the crowd reaction) I wonder if it wasn’t at least partly a cheer just to have some trade action going on.

Don’t feel sorry for Jack, he’s a tough cookie and he’s onto a new challenge. He was expecting it, probably glad to get out of the rain.

by BrailleTaser on Jun 27, 2008 3:14 PM PDT   0 recs

no

those cheers were pretty clearly for the fact that Jack was traded—I don’t think people broke into “Hit the road Jack” by coincidence, or because that’s the song we always break out when a trade goes down.

Don’t get me wrong, I expected a trade, I expected it to include Jack, and I think we came out a winner in this deal. That being said, what has Jarrett Jack done to deserve being run out of town? I don’t owe him my gratitude, necessarily, but he wasn’t owed what he got from the fans last night, either.

by abdelnaby on Jun 27, 2008 3:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This is overblown...

Not to say I disagree, Blazers fans should celebrate Jack’s accomplishments and tenure as a Blazer, but this is being overblown as a reflection of us as Blazers fans. We turned Jack and the #13 into a top-5 talent and Ike Diogu, who potentially rounds out the best big man rotation in the NBA.

We have every reason to celebrate.

In my opinion, it seemed like an accurate response in the sense that we had no time to respond and we were generally shell shocked. We traded who… and got what? Some people cheered. Some people stood open faced. But the bottom line was the same – we were amazed with what we got out of a player who projected to be our #4 guard or lower next season. We didn’t have to give up Outlaw. We’ve still got Martell Webster. Channing Frye. Sergio Rodriguez. Steve Blake…

That is reason to celebrate.

“Hit the Road, Jack” to me was an exorcism of all that used to be wrong with the franchise, not really a reflection of our disappointment in Jack’s career [I wasn’t at the Rose Garden, but this was my reaction to hearing about all this]. He was a steady guard for Portland, but he joined us during an era of turmoil. The year prior we had passed on Chris Paul because we already had Sebastian Telfair (who?). Jack was Plan 3C when he joined us and we should be thankful he performed as well as he did. But that’s not to say we can’t be excited about the possibilities that his departure has created.

Jack’s game had serious weaknesses and they happen to coincide with areas which we’ll soon need to be our team strengths. He had trouble running the break, and now we’ve got two of the quickest big men in the league. He had trouble shooting from the perimeter, and, make no mistake, our guards need to be able to shoot for us to be effective.

We’re officially not rebuilding any more. We’re rebuilt. We’re reloaded. And we’re ready, in the next couple of years, to do some serious damage. Moreso, I think, than we could’ve done with Jack in the rotation. I’m hoping that Jack proves everyone in the Rose Garden wrong and becomes the point guard (that same Chauncey Billups clone) that we’ve hoped he would become.

"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)

by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jun 27, 2008 3:16 PM PDT   0 recs

They weren't singing about who we got

They were singing ‘hit the road JACK’. They cheered just when his name was announced , before the whole announcement finished. Had the message gone on to include Roy and Oden in the deal, the cheering still would have happened (though probably ended quite abruptly) just for the simple fact that Jack was in the deal. This post isn’t about people cheering for the excitement of a new prospect, they were cheering to spite him. On top of that, Jack was a good guy in a bad time here on the team. If I’m not mistaken, Webster remains the longest tenured Blazer on our team, and Pryz, Trout and Blake were all here in dark times. I don’t think people would cheer if we dropped them from the roster.

If you think this is overblown, then imagine that you put your all into in a company that went from a shody, terrible wretch of a company to something tremendous during your tenure. Then, right when things get to be really good and you were well on your way to the goals that you had dreamed about for your entire life, you get fired and people start singing songs on your way out the door and they justify it by talking about how much better off the company will be without you. No excuses, that was poor class.

by einman77 on Jun 27, 2008 4:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

your mistaken outlaw has the longest tenure

just saying

"We didn't get our annual free complimentary player from Phoenix this year:("

raoulduke

by ptwnblzr on Jun 28, 2008 12:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"You're" mistaken.

You’re = you are
Your = possessive

Trade Freeland!

by rockingharder on Jun 28, 2008 4:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You just made my day

"Beards--they grow on you"

by prezofdeath on Jun 30, 2008 9:02 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ok...

Sure, I’ll imagine that a company I’ve put a lot of work into pays me over $2 million per year, but then, just as you said, they’ve traded me away right when the franchise got good…

Oh no! At least I’m still making $2 million per year…

If Roy and Oden were involved in the deal, there wouldn’t have been a mention of Jarrett Jack. It would’ve been “Roy and Oden traded along with cap filler for X, Y and Z player.” In my opinion, Jarrett Jack needed the Blazers just as much as we needed him. Had he not been playing for a team that had approximately zero expectations for the past 3 years, he would’ve been buried on someone else’s bench getting Von Wafer minutes…

I’d rather have an empassioned fan base that recognizes the importance of improving than be a part of a “wine and cheese” crowd that refuses to stand in a NBA Finals. LA’s fan base seems to be very classy, but that’s why they wouldn’t cut it in Portland.

"Now, you take a bobcat or a Jayhawk. You know they'll run if you give 'em the chance. But when one don't run, why, you shoot him and shoot him quick. Raef's my dog, Pa. I've gotta do what's right..." Old Yeller (1957)

by RoyGoesTheDynamite on Jun 30, 2008 9:46 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks for posting this

Like many here, I haven’t been a big Jarrett Jack fan, but I do believe in giving credit where it’s due. He did some things very well for the Blazers, and he kept his nose clean. I wish him luck.

I do think that it reflects badly on “fans” when they heckle or jeer people who are actually trying their best and who don’t have a public persona that invites such behavior (e.g., K0be).

No, we don’t “owe” the players anything except the respect that is due to anyone of us as human beings.

"Shoot, I don't even have anything to put in my own sig"

These are the modest words of pualo, posted on June 20, 2008.
Yes, pualo, an extraordinarily discerning BEdger with a knack for subtle expression.

by CatMan2 on Jun 27, 2008 3:18 PM PDT   0 recs

Athletes are sacrificial figures by definition

The exchange they participate in grants them superhuman appreciation and deprives them of the basic human kindness you claim they deserve.

This is not to say that we shouldn’t be kind to them: I think we should. But I certainly don’t think fans of a team owe their players kindness. Often the opposite is true,

BLZRS FRVR

by nightbluefruit on Jun 27, 2008 3:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Interesting position

but not one I’ve ever heard articulated by a professional athlete. Is this explained in the fine print of their contracts?

I don’t equate respect, which in turn requires politeness, with kindness.

"Shoot, I don't even have anything to put in my own sig"

These are the modest words of pualo, posted on June 20, 2008.
Yes, pualo, an extraordinarily discerning BEdger with a knack for subtle expression.

by CatMan2 on Jun 27, 2008 3:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The agreenment is not a physical one

But it is just as binding. Like an entertainer, presenting yourself before a crowd with the expressed intent to compete and/or entertain is absolving yourself of certain rights, one of which is the “niceties” of common respect that we recognize in person with one another. In exchange, when you perform well, you’re showered with praise and adoration that would make us blush if we were to express it openly to one another in public. When you fail, the same but in reverse. There is no middle ground, no “normal” for people who choose this path.

I’m not advocating being rude to athletes. I am just trying to explain the way things are. As I mentioned above, I’m all for being kind to athletes and performers and so on. It’s just not required and it should never be expected.

BLZRS FRVR

by nightbluefruit on Jun 27, 2008 4:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You're presenting a single point of view

or, rather, a theory of social behavior, as if it is universally shared, or ought to be. It is not.

Recall that a summary execution might await the loser of a fight between Roman gladiators. Whether or not this practice was once popular, we now regard it as barbaric and immoral.

It used to be common practice to shout down opera singers you didn’t like, and to throw rotten fruit at them. Not so much anymore.

Likewise, those who nowadays are rude to performers, entertainers and athletes - and who rely on the excuse that it comes with the territory for such public personalities - are naturally thought by some of us to be a bit uncivilized, to say the least.

"Shoot, I don't even have anything to put in my own sig"

These are the modest words of pualo, posted on June 20, 2008.
Yes, pualo, an extraordinarily discerning BEdger with a knack for subtle expression.

by CatMan2 on Jun 27, 2008 4:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I can't help but find your argument naive

Just because examples of mob mentality are not as obvious as public executions (your Roman reference) does not make them any less prescient or malicious. Think about the way that the internet jumped on the Simpson girl when her lip-syncing was revealed. Think about the way bloggers casually talk about draft “busts.” Think about the impromptu chants that the Boston crowd broke into with Kobe on the foul line in game 6. Or Utah fans booing Derek Fisher throughout the season. Inversely when someone succeeds (like, say, KG this year) he is praised like a god and raised above the mob in pure adulation. This is not some “theory,” this is real life. It is always happening, and when you choose to become an athlete this is what you choose.

The anonymity of the internet provides a more covert and comfortable venue for the ire and praise of the mob. It also gives us a constant record of its actions.

Your claim that this activity is “uncivilized” is backwards. This behavior is the norm and is participle to civilization as a whole. Right now, in our civilization, if you don’t “support the troops” you are a pariah. Is that “civilized” or “uncivilized?”

BLZRS FRVR

by nightbluefruit on Jun 27, 2008 5:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I see what you're saying

and I agree that people do, perhaps more often than not, embrace various aspects of mob mentality. But it seems to me that you’re letting us all off the hook, saying it’s just human nature, and so on, when I am trying to make the point that we have a choice. We don’t have to behave as mindless animals.

And, I still don’t think that, as a public personality, you have to accept the worst kinds of unruly behavior. You might, unfortunately, expect it. But you don’t have to accept it. And neither do the rest of us, the fans.

"Shoot, I don't even have anything to put in my own sig"

These are the modest words of pualo, posted on June 20, 2008.
Yes, pualo, an extraordinarily discerning BEdger with a knack for subtle expression.

by CatMan2 on Jun 27, 2008 5:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think the answer to all this can be found...

at the end of Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back

For Blazer fans who go lusting,
A new point guard is that sexy girl.
Trade Machine's their pornography,
For one they'll give away the world.

-T Darkstar

by KobeStoppa on Jun 27, 2008 5:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Two thoughts
1 Though you both have good points, I’m gonna’ have to side with Catman on this one. However,
#2 How cool is it that we can have this discussion re: Performance and the responsibility of the individual on AN NBA FAN SITE?!
On a related note, I’m going to go start a thread on retrospective sense-making a.k.a. “the garbage can theory” and it’s relation to the Timberwolves draft strategy.

by Montavilla Steve on Jun 27, 2008 7:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"Mob Mentality" is just a euphamism for "Human Nature"

Listen, if we’re going to keep typing “L*kers” then we’re going to have to forgive people who supposedly act “uncivilized” by singing “Hit the road Jack” when JJ gets traded.

Pretending to take the moral high ground on any of this is pure moral relativism, which is a nice way of saying it’s completely hypocritical. You’re arguing degrees. So it’s okay to make fun of other teams’ GM’s at draft time but it’s not okay to cheer a player you don’t like when he gets moved?

Yes, we always have a “choice,” but by being sports fans we’ve already made a choice, and thousands of times every day you make a default decision to go with the flow of everyone else and accept the “mob mentality.”

I’m a fan of kindness but I respect it because I understand it as a rarity and not the rule. To argue otherwise is pure idealism and that is as dangerous as any silly celebration of a departing blazer.

BLZRS FRVR

by nightbluefruit on Jun 27, 2008 7:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Coda

Somewhere between asking an NBA player for his autograph, on the one hand, and stalking him and killing his loved ones and pets, on the other hand, is a line that one should not cross. You and I cannot seem to agree on the location of that line, but that’s okay.

You seem to be more pessimistic than me about the ability of people to make responsible moral and ethical decisions. That’s okay, too.

You keep bringing up “kindness”, though I have talked about “respect”, which is a different word and means something quite a bit different. Anne has already dealt with this well, I think, so I’ll just add that whereas to me “respect” simply acknowledges our mutual humanity and is due every individual except, perhaps, under circumstances that do not remotely resemble what we’ve been discussing, “kindness” is something over and above that, and it is neither required nor expected except among people who are at least good acquaintances (although there are folks who practice kindness on a much broader scale, whom I admire).

Some of your remarks have seemed to be aimed at me in a personal way, and it makes me wonder if you’re feeling somehow threatened by some of the points I’ve brought up. I don’t know you, nightbluefruit, but I think we could have a good time BS-ing about any number of things over over a quaff or two of good ale or wine. But please don’t accuse me of “pretending to take the moral high ground”. I am writing to you from the heart and I trust that you are doing likewise.

And that’s all I’ve got.

"Shoot, I don't even have anything to put in my own sig"

These are the modest words of pualo, posted on June 20, 2008.
Yes, pualo, an extraordinarily discerning BEdger with a knack for subtle expression.

by CatMan2 on Jun 27, 2008 10:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Where are you from

nightbluefruit? I have associated comments like yours to be made by some New York natives or maybe Philadelphia.

I am undoubtedly twice your age and it may be a generational thing or MTV generation or a Rome smackdown.

I really believe you should treat others exactly the way you want to be treated. Buying a ticket to a sports event does not change that.

by OrygunRod on Jun 27, 2008 11:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Alright, there's something I need to make very clear

I’m not arguing about what should be done. I’m just saying what is done. In a perfect world, yes, we would all treat athletes with “respect.” However, again, “respect” and “kindness” are too different forms of the same thing.

I hope I can make you understand that I am not calling you out personally, and I don’t mean to insult anyone, but participating as a sports fan and then being outraged at this kind of exploit (the JJ-song thing) is a move to take the moral high ground. People keep trying to take this maneuver with me in this discussion. I am the soulless (foreign) jackal who boos outgoing blazers and heartlessly revels in sports figures’ misfortunes. Well, I’ll say again, I think treating people with kindness (respect) is always prudent and you should treat other people as you want to be treated.

BUT WE DON’T! We CONSTANTLY make fun of Laker fans. We make fun of other teams’ misfortune ALL THE TIME and somehow it’s fine; it’s considered a “part of the game.” Well, I’m just here to point it out to everyone when they do decided that this kind of behavior is disgusting that it’s something we all signed up for by being sports fans.

One individual stalker killing one athlete has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. I’m talking about one athlete who fails in turn getting killed by the press over and over and over and all us sports fans just nodding in agreement. Look at Dan Marino for gosh sakes. What is the first thing that anybody thinks about him? Good quarterback, not good enough to win a super bowl. This kind of behavior is different only by degrees than the Roman execution you mentioned before.

You, personally, Cat Man, make the mistake of thinking I don’t agree with you when you say we should treat everyone with respect all the time. I’m just telling you it’s an impossible ideal. I personally didn’t sing out JJ, and I don’t agree with people who do. But I don’t look down on them because I know underneath it all we’re all the same. We all are the same. And a large part of this sameness is an ugly universalism.

Unfortunately, I’m a born and raised Oregonian. You can’t explain universal human aggression away by blaming it on an east coast upbringing.

BLZRS FRVR

by nightbluefruit on Jun 28, 2008 9:23 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You're trying to make this a black and white argument, which it's not.

Killing a man for losing a match and criticizing a man for not winning the super bowl are extremely opposite ends of the same spectrum. However, in today’s society we have clearly defined which of those is acceptable behavior and which isn’t. Being killed in the press is something that does happen in sports, yes. But who is doing the killing? And what does it say about that journalist? If Stephen A. Smith were to trash a guy, I wouldn’t care in the least. If Dave said a harsh comment about a guy I would certainly take that into consideration. If he were to start doing that on a regular basis that would also be taken into consideration as well and my view of him would change.

When we (Blazers fans, not sports fans) trash our own guys, it says a lot. We don’t do that very often (except for the ones that have already trashed us, see below post before stating an argument to this exception). If we do start doing that a lot, how do you think the guys who go out and battle for us every night will view us? How do you think it already has? This isn’t about taking the moral high ground, it’s about expressing what moral behavior we should be adhering to. As Blazers fans. We can’t change everything that happens in sports, but it is up to us to find a way treat each other and our team with an implied (or in this case it is getting verbalized) level of respect. And please stop saying respect and kindness are the same thing. I can treat someone with respect without being kind, as well as treat someone kindly without respecting them. They are completely independent of each other.

I never ‘signed up’ for anything that makes an excuse for my behavior. Making fun of another team is certainly something that I feel I have the right to do without feeling guilty about. I would expect that they do the same. I have no problem with that. If most other Blazers fans I tried to share these views with said ‘you know that’s just not cool’ I would think ‘that really sucks’ and that would significantly detract from my experience as a fan, probably to the point that I wouldn’t spend much time around other Blazers fans who shared this opinion. On the other end of the spectrum, if we stoned the guys who played badly (not a Rasheed and Damon drive on I-5 stoned either), that is something I would also choose not to support. There is nothing wrong with debating where we want to put our line in the sand. If you don’t support what people did, then that’s fine. If you do, then state your view, but realize it’s not a majority opinion and please take that into consideration as your public behavior is a reflection on us too.

You’re simply pushing this in the direction of the stonings. I’m pushing it towards the never criticizing the opposition. Before either of us ever gets close to those two points, we will be pushed back towards this disputed region by both ourselves and other Blazers fans. The point is to respect the line that we can come the closest to agreeing on, and where you are saying the line should be is far different from where just about everyone else thinks it should be. You have to respect that.

by einman77 on Jun 28, 2008 11:14 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

good point

wich is why your defending your “right” to make fun of others with out guilt. lookig at it from Nights perspective would not absolve us of our missed opprotunity to rise above our NATURAl instinct-see herd mentality-while granting us a free pass to the high ground. she has no issue with good human ettiquet, and seeminly respects such efforts, but is very aware of degrees of the same trait, and is simply offering a deeper look. I hate it for example when in self reflection I find that my efforts to be kind have an altierior motive, selfish in nature, but it offers an opprotunity for improvement. her true argument seems to be the fantastick revalation that acting shocked at standard human behavior is a little nieve. I am probably misinterpreting much.

"We didn't get our annual free complimentary player from Phoenix this year:("

raoulduke

by ptwnblzr on Jun 28, 2008 1:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You've got it more right than anyone else.

Thank you. I was starting to think maybe I was crazy and it only made sense to me.

BLZRS FRVR

by nightbluefruit on Jun 28, 2008 9:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And so I'm being perfectly clear

I include myself in this assessment. I am as subject to the mob mentality as the next guy. I’m as guilty (if not more so) than us all. But I am aware of it and particularly frustrated with morally relativistic assessments that say cheering your own teams’ misfortune is bad but cheering another teams’ is the point.

BLZRS FRVR

by nightbluefruit on Jun 28, 2008 9:27 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

kindness might not be owed

but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it when it’s given.

I also don’t see Jack might have been owed the opposite, but that’s just me.

by abdelnaby on Jun 27, 2008 3:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I would hope that you would treat a professional athlete with the same respect you would any other human being

and with the respect you would hope for in return. What happened at the Rose Garden had nothing to do with being unkind. It bordered on the edge of a drunken crowd mentality that you might find in a European footbal stadium. It was ugly, classless and uncalled for. As a Trailblazer fan I was embarrassed by that behavior.

"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar

by annthefan on Jun 27, 2008 4:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I always treat people with respect.

My point is not that we should be cruel to athletes, just that they should not be surprised (and we should not pretend to be outraged) when people do act cruelly to them.

BLZRS FRVR

by nightbluefruit on Jun 27, 2008 4:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm sorry, my comment was a little unclear. Where I used the word "you" just replace it with "one".

Also, I think we may be quibbling a little bit about the semantics. Maybe civility would be a better choice of words than kindness. Not to be pedantic because I know that you know the difference between the two words, I’m just one of those people who believes that civility is right in any situation and everyone deserves it until they prove they don’t.

"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar

by annthefan on Jun 27, 2008 6:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Perhaps I Can Cloud the Issue

I was at the Rose Garden for the draft. When I decided to go, I had some fairly Utopian notion that it would be a collection of happy fans like myself cheering on the Blazers and KP as well as the draft and its implications. I found it to be something less than that. I’m no snoot, but I found it to be VERY close the atmosphere at WaMu the-atre in New York, except with a distinctive Portland vibe (I love the comment someone here made that the collective IQ was somewhere around 100). I expected something like Claudia’s Sports Bar (a place I frequent to catch games) on steroids, but I encountered more of a “Rock-n-Bowl meets the dog track” type environment.

I decided to sit in the bowl and watch it on the megatron or whatever one calls it because I wanted to check out what it’s like to be at the Garden when it’s relatively empty. Also, there were a ton of mutants congregating in the Lexus club and I was more than happy to get some elbow room elsewhere, even if it meant missing out on the experience of “seeing the radio live!!”. Plus, it was stuffy. It turned out to be a good decision, I think.

There was a LOT of tension in the air, as everyone expected some serious KP moves from the get-go. Pressure built and built, Wheels kept coming up leakless, and players were snagged every five minutes. The two older women in front of me yelled and smacked their programs on the railing when DJ Augustin was taken. We were really beginning to worry this draft would come and go and nothing would happen. That wouldn’t be so bad, but we came for a show, dang it! When the announcers on the audio feed broke the news of a POSSIBLE trade with Indiana, there was a very uncomfortable thrill in the air. Everyone was tenuously waiting for details or some kind of confirmation – it had been a long hour or so.

Finally, the unease hanging over us snapped like a twig as soon as an announcer (I can’t remember which) got on the horn and told us “Ladies and gentlemen, Jarret Jack is no longer a Blazer..”. I let out a solitary whoop, and it was among the first. To me, we were finally springing into action. It meant we were trading for a point guard. It meant we were probably only losing Jack and change. This was (and still is) EXCELLENT news. As soon as the rest of the news was announced, the crowd in the Lexus club could be heard with their ridiculous chant over the PA system. My girlfriend and I rolled our eyes, and one of the announcers laughed at not being able to get a word in. It subsided pretty quickly and we all cheered, starry-eyed, at the prospect.

All of that said, here’s my take on the “moral relativism” everyone’s been hashing out. Firstly, this was, as I said, exciting news and I’d say 90% of the people there were cheering in a very “classy” (what a loaded word) way. Second, let’s not forget the frustration Jack has engendered in the last year. Third, put a group of 200 worried people in a room for two hours, give them free salty popcorn and sell them beer and Vegas odds are they’re going to do something stupid and regrettable. Lastly, I agree with NBF that these things happen. They’ve always happened and being offended isn’t going to change that. Then again, it doesn’t mean they’re O.K. Then again, what I think is O.K. may not be what YOU think is O.K. Then again, does it matter what I/you think? Then again..

"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan

by 12sharks on Jun 28, 2008 12:29 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I am not outraged at the behavior, but I am appalled.

I am certainly outraged at your defense of it though. I’m sorry, I think you are a funny guy, but this is not tolerable. To not only defend this type of behavior, but to insist that there is a type of clause in moral behavior that applies to the way we can treat athletes and entertainers is outrageous.

Yes, we do hold athletes up to a higher standard. The entire community puts a lot of hope into them (and a lot of time and money) in the hopes that they can deliver on their promise of potential. If an athlete were to take all that everyone has given to him and not put in the effort, or worse, get himself into trouble and disgrace the community that supports him or her, then they should rightly be booed or possibly even cheered for when traded (if there is a complete lack of respect in the relationship between the athlete and the fans), which in my opinion is the worst insult you could give a professional athlete. However, that person would have already obviously not cared as much about the community. That is not the case here. Jack was a class act in the locker room and the hardest worker outside of it.

The point of this particular post is to take a look at the situation and call our own standards into question. There is no doubt that people have differing expectations about what is proper fan conduct. There seem to be a lot of people who think this particular incident was out of line. You, on the other hand, are vehemently advocating that this is what is to be expected from fans by a professional athlete. Unfortunately, you are right. However, that’s not how it has to be and that’s not how it should be here. Let’s get it straight, whether you are an athlete or just any guy on the street, you should expect the same amount of decency that you show to other people. That standard was not met by us as fans when the Jack trade was announced.

Your argument pertaining to the fact that we disrespect the L*kers, that we boo them and trash them, well that IS also to be expected by a professional athlete. As much as it pains me to admit it, that is a form of respect. It is a complement to be the athlete that fans of the other teams hate (at least because of play). Even booing your own when they make a poor play, I don’t condone it, but we’re on the same page with them. They messed up. They are as disappointed as we are. In fact I have no doubt that they are more so. Booing them is a lot like beating a dead horse, but at least they are on the same page. Really though, I am from Philly, and I couldn’t stand the way that the fans jumped on the team at the drop of a hat. I stopped cheering for the Sixers because of the atmosphere that the fans created. Portland is different, not in the action, but certainly in the threshold and the acceptability of it. I felt it when we were the worst in the league and I feel it still now.

Mob mentality is NOT just a euphemism for human nature. No way. It is a part of human nature, but it is a part that is based on reacting to the situation, of doing things without thinking just because others around you are doing it. We can rise above it. If the crowd started fighting, would you join in? How about if someone pulled out a knife and started stabbing other people? Would you do it? I hope not. The reason you wouldn’t is because that has been ingrained in you that it is the wrong thing to do. In this instance, those people were wrong. What’s done is done, but if the people who did it can look back and realize their mistake then that could almost make it a worthwhile mistake. Defending it deflects the blame. That’s why I have a major problem with what you are writing.

Jack put his heart on his sleeve. That’s how he played and no doubt how he lives. This man didn’t have thick skin, he was crushed by the trade and no doubt crushed by the reaction. This wasn’t someone who didn’t care about the community. We betrayed that man and the culture that KP is trying to create. Make no mistake about it, the team can only be responsible for their end of promoting a positive culture. The rest is up to us.

Today on the Blazers website they announced there are only 400 season tickets left. That means that everyone who has them will get to know the people around them well, even if you only end up going to 4 games together all year. If everyone is on the same page about the conduct that we should expect then even the people who only buy a game for the night will fall into the ‘mob mentality’ of our culture. All it takes if or someone to open their mouth and let the other person know what they are doing is wrong.

No, I am not idealistic. I do not think it’s out of the realm of possibility to employ an understanding of mutual respect. I don’t think it’s out of line to expect that from the people around you. I think that it can change. I challenge you, or anyone else reading this who considers themselves a member of the Blazers community, to be a catalyst for that change.

by einman77 on Jun 28, 2008 2:47 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

O.K.

Let’s be proactive catalysts for change and stop calling Raef “RLEC”. It’s dehumanizing and disrespectful. Like Jack, he is/was a member of the Blazers and, like Jack, has done us no wrong other than not being very good (at least for our team).

I think this whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion; so a bunch of drunken losers sing a derisive song. So someone gets undeserving ridicule. Of course, it doesn’t add much prestige to being a Blazer fan, but I consider it no knock on my credibility. As per your suggestion, I’m definitely NOT going to police other people’s conduct when I attend games. Their behavior is their behavior and I’m all for letting people experience the game as they choose. Decisions regarding crossed lines and penalties are ultimately best left to the Rose Garden, its policies and its employees, don’t you think?

Personally, I don’t think fans get a “you don’t have to be a decent person now” card, nor should they. I hold myself to higher standards in daily life and fandom, but that’s kinda what I’m getting at – they’re MY standards. If you, a stranger, were to ‘open your mouth’ and tell me the way I appreciate the Blazers is ‘wrong’, I would be insulted. That action, in fact, would go under bad behavior in MY book. Just as I strive to be courteous and expect the same, I reserve my own standards for my own actions and expect the same.

@einman – I read your whole comment and I found it very well-written and thought-provoking. It even changed my mind somewhat. I’m not trying to attack you at all.. just kind of volleying back the birdie. Also, why does it pain you to admit that booing is a form of respect?

"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan

by 12sharks on Jun 28, 2008 4:16 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You do bring up some good points there

And thanks for the props. You’re right, RLEC is actually a bit dehumanizing. In fairness, he hasn’t lived up to anything near what he was brought on to be (at least in the mind of the person who gave him the money), which is a part of sports. In context, really his trade value is nothing more than that acronym. If you were to apply it to him as a person, I’m not sure it would ever go over very well. ’ RLEC had 3 blocks today’ is awkward at best and a bad joke at worst on the surface. When talking about a trade, let’s face it, that really is the best part of his package. Sad but true. But that stays here. If the Blazers are scouring this site, they better be ready for their fair share of criticism. If I was Raef, Blazers edge is the last place I would look. There is, however, a big difference what we say here and what we say in the Rose Garden. That’s like talking about the way you don’t like your girlfriend’s new hairdo to your friends behind closed doors. It’s not really that big of a deal, but saying directly to the other person does turn it into one and unnecessarily creates a situation . Screaming ‘RLEC’ at the Rose Garden wouldn’t really catch on and probably confuse most people (even people who knew what it meant would wonder why you are yelling it), so it’s not much of an issue. Screaming ‘Reaf, you suck’ every time he gets the ball would evoke feelings from myself if I was near you, as well as other fans, and from the player. You would get want you want to say off your chest, but it would in my opinion do more harm than good. That is where I believe the line is.

I don’t think this issue is blown out of proportion what so ever. It’s not that a few people did something that was utterly classless. It’s that they did it in our house. Also, what they did wasn’t horrific. But not addressing it or passing it off with no accountability opens the door to more and worse such actions. Honestly, all the trade rumors and predictions and other things that happen on this site are a nice way to pass the time and keep our minds focused on a really important topic, but don’t change a whole lot. This is something that we are in complete control of. This is how we chose to represent ourselves as a fan base. Make no mistake about it, what you and other people do in the Rose Garden casts a light on the Blazers as an organization, Portland as a city, and everyone who has ever dawned a Blazers jersey in support of the team. Do you remember when Eagles fans threw snowballs at Santa Clause? It wasn’t the whole stadium, but for decades that incident hung over the organization. People act like I had something to do with it and I wasn’t even born yet, not to mention in the same stadium (Sorry if you don’t remember it, it’s where I grew up and the only thing I could pull up right now).

As far as policing other people’s behaviors goes, don’t worry about it. You don’t have to do anything with what I have said. If you feel this isn’t for you, then it’s not for you. It only takes a few people to make the change, you don’t have to be one of them. Excusing or condoning it is something that will make it worse. To take the reigns and talk to your neighbor in a way that challenges his representation of us as a fan base and a city is something that can only open both of your horizons. I am simply highlighting the reality of the situation. As per where the burden of responsibility falls, the enforcement of rules are up to the Rose Garden’s staff. The definition and enforcement of it’s norms are up to the members of the community. I can’t stress enough that that is what we are, like it or not.

I don’t have a problem with the way someone appreciates the Blazers or doesn’t. I have a big issue with the way that someone respects the Blazers or doesn’t. I consider this quite personal and treat it as such. I’m not saying I’m perfect. Far from it as a matter of fact. I have blasted people who came on to this website and openly cheered for the L*kers and the dark prince himself during a game. I thought that was completely off limits and let it be known. Some members of the community let me know they thought this was inappropriate. Others thanked them for expressing their views and apologized for the negativity they received. Both ways got the message across. I still don’t think this is alright, but being that my actions reflect on other members of this site, I respect that and keep my mouth shut when such instances occur. If no one had said anything I probably would have kept doing the same. If more people had joined in on the trashing, or at least defensed my actions, I would have, well, I would have further investigated how I would handle the situation, but I certainly would have let my argument be known. Who’s to say whether what we do is right or wrong other than us? But it will reflect on every one of us.

I don’t mind the volley or any questions you have about my views. I appreciate the fact that it got you thinking, as what you said also got me thinking as well. This isn’t black and white, but I think it would be worthwhile to sort out exactly how deep a shade of gray we want to portray. As to why admitting the booing is a form of respect, it is because I am openly admitting that when I hate on that disgusting purple and gold uniform that I have to see all too often, it’s only because I truly fear and respect what it represents. Again, it pains me to look at that in such a way.

by einman77 on Jun 28, 2008 10:17 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I Think..

this argument comes down to two distinct camps:
1. Those who found it in poor taste and would prefer to elevate Blazer community consciousness.
2. Those who found it in poor taste and would prefer to respect individual interpretations within the fanbase on what is an acceptable way to root for the Blazers.

I’d say I fall into the second camp, but that’s really kind of trivial – I wouldn’t say #1 or #2 are either “good” or “evil” or “smart” or “dumb”; in fact, I don’t think one could value one over the other in virtually any capacity.

The point, though, is I haven’t seen ONE PERSON here who was in support of the singing itself. NBF seemed to take a more laissez-faire attitude towards it but never applauded it, as far as I read. I think we’re all just arguing differing ‘paths up a mountain’, except the top of the mountain is what we all knew already – in our opinions, the song sucked. Some just seem less outraged and want to take less action. Call me a little cynical if you like, but this sort of action doesn’t really surprise me. It happens, and while I am not resigned to accept it, I am dedicated to valuing others’ decisions based on what they think is right or wrong over seeking to control those actions based on what I think is right or wrong.

"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan

by 12sharks on Jun 28, 2008 3:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's not cynical

And I’m not surprised that it happened in sports. I am kind of surprised that it happened here, but Jack has become a target of late and I can see some people taking it to this point. In the midst of that moment, I could even understand people wanting to sing and joining in without thinking too much about what they were singing. In retrospect it’s kind of despicable, but it’s understandble how it happened.

It’s just like players going out and heading off to strip clubs, smoking joints, and all the stuff that the team of 5 years ago had become famous for. Now there is a completely different kind of culture. If someone on the team were to consider making decisions like that, they would understand that other people on the team and the management are already holding them to a higher standard of behavior. That understanding wouldn’t happen in retrospect, it would happen before the player ever went through with their decision. I am not shocked when I see this type of behavior by professional athletes. I would be shocked to see it from this team.

We represent another branch of the same red and black tree. Some of the fans at the garden will choose to engage in behavior that, as you pointed out, no one is condoning. I don’t think there is much of a difference between defending what they did and condoning it if you believe it was in poor taste. Anyway, As long as you are more aware of what you consider to be acceptable you will have more options. Whether you want to join in or not. Whether you want to shoot a glance or not. Whether you want to say something or not. It is completely up to you how you handle such a situation that could arise. I do think that the with the way the organization has held the players more accountable now, it would be irresponsible if we let fan conduct deteriorate to the level of other teams in other cities.

by einman77 on Jun 28, 2008 6:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I want you to listen to your own words.
If the Blazers are scouring this site, they better be ready for their fair share of criticism.

I think you’ve more or less proven my point. What’s the difference between doing it here and doing it in the rose garden? And one dude stabbing a bunch of people isn’t going to make everyone pull out their knives and join him. A whole bunch of people stabbing will cause more to join them, though. I hope we’re all familiar enough with history to realize this is true.

This is my argument in as much of a nutshell as I can fit it in: as sports fans we behave aggressively by definition. Let’s stop acting surprised when the aggression takes a form that we find offensive. Instead of attacking those who engage in the activity, try to look at our own behavior and find those ways that we are the same as the people we hate. Then change those behaviors from within rather than talking ourselves silly about how offensive it all is.

FInally:

Jesus challenged a man without sin to throw the first stone because he knew once that first stone was thrown all the others would follow.

BLZRS FRVR

by nightbluefruit on Jun 28, 2008 9:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The context is different

There are certain things that you can expect from this site, and it is different from what you can expect in the arena. That’s like saying what’s the difference if someone punches another guy in the street vs in a boxing ring. Also, if a bunch of people started pulling out knives and stabbing other people in the Rose Garden, I seriously hope you or most people wouldn’t actually consider joining them. Also, if that was the case and you tried to blame this completely on ‘herd mentality; you would be crucified by just about every person with half a brain. I don’t even know where to begin with this one. We’re not trying to stone Jesus again here, and if someone did I hope you wouldn’t defend that as well. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but would you mind if I asked you how old you are?

Just one more thing, if we’re all victims of this unstoppable force of herd mentality, then why are you so resistant to go along with what everyone else is clearly putting forward?

by einman77 on Jun 28, 2008 10:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I find your questioning of age to be condensending

but thats just how I see it. i could be wrong tho, im wrong a lot.

wisdom is not entitled through age, or even expirience

expirience is a prerequeset, conditionaly

wisdom is atained threw patient self examination, or quiet observation.

if I can see 500 hundred feet into the distance, and the guy standing next to me can see 800 feet into the distance, untill we walk side by side long enough, only one of us will be aware. when discusing the sights of our furthest view, there will certainly be disagreements.

humans are pack animals. simple.

your right, you can and should expect certain things from this site, thought provoking debate, for sure. also, you can expect that when people begin to hold themselves above others, using degrees of the same trait they themselves often readily and in som cases, proudly diplay themselfves, someone like Night might point out the hipocracy. the argument protecting the right to laugh at gms, reduce raif to relic, make fun of other teams misfortunes, or even Kobe(please note the respectiful capitalation) while acting indignent when a VARIATION OF THE SAME ROOT TRAIT (laughing at jack) is displayed in offence to ones own personal agenda, ie sensibilitie(...said in little schoolgirls whiney voice…. I like Jack) is like listening to a prostitute promise loyalty, just not a lot of weight in that one.

"If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all"
Mom

by ptwnblzr on Jun 29, 2008 1:06 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs