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Why Bayless dropped

I was interested in why Bayless went from being a consensus top 5 pick to showing up at 11 for us to snag with a clever trade.  Last week, Chad Ford wrote a column about how he comes up with his mock draft.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=Tiers-080619

In it, he describes a 'tier' system, whereby he places players in tiers based on where GMs have the players on their draft board.  Obviously, Rose and Beasley were alone in tier 1.  Interestingly, Mayo and Bayless were alone in tier 2, because

"Virtually every team I spoke with has Mayo and Bayless as the No. 3 and No. 4 picks in the draft, regardless of team need. A few teams argued that Mayo should be in Tier 1, but for now, I left him in Tier 2."

I think this is part of the reason why Bayless fell -- most teams in the lottery had favorites that they talked themselves into valuing over everyone but Rose, Beasley and Mayo.   Instead of taking BPA, they either filled a need or chose their individual fave.   I don't think Bayless falling has anything to do with Bayless himself, but more to do with how teams manage their draft process and think about who to take.  This is an amazing coup for the Blazers -- because of how they acquired him, but also likely because of the disinformation that they spread trying to dampen hype around their targeted player.  Exciting stuff.

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Amen

Bayless was always #4 on the only board that counted – KP and Paul’s. I tend to agree with your thoughts. After all, Bayless didn’t have poor work-outs, isn’t a head case, and had no last second “medical issues” (Batum/Arthur). There was no reason for him to drop except for the reasons you pointed out. Not picking BPA, talking themselves into favorites, or picking for positions. KP never lost the handle though. I think he’s got a real gem here – and knows it. Bayless is a good young man. He’s not some street kid. Parents are PHD/MBA forensic pschologist/Counselor types, his brother works on Wall Street, and his family is solid as a rock. He had, in sum, intelligence. And KP likes those kinds of players.

by Eben Calder on Jun 27, 2008 11:46 AM PDT reply actions  

I seem to recall reports...

... that he wasn’t exactly wowing people in his workouts. But as with anything from the internet, it could have been so much hearsay.

by timg56 on Jun 27, 2008 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Awesome Jarryd Bayless video pre-draft short... check this link out.

“I don’t have a wild and crazy side.” – Jarryd Bayless.

http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Draft-Diaries/

I prefer ballers who eat, sleep and doody basketball. Bayless is one of those players.

by Portland Dynasty on Jun 27, 2008 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

More TEAM NEED than BPA than most mock drafters expected.

But, that is why you study the teams ahead of you… so you can ask them “hey what do you want out of this draft?” then POW… Pritchslapped.

Way to go Portland TRADE-Blazers!!!!

by Portland Dynasty on Jun 27, 2008 11:47 AM PDT reply actions  

KP is a G

i heart kevin! he is simply the best! ok wow im done

I used to HATE paul allen what with whittsit and patterson and trying to ask us to bail the RG out of bankruptcy when he is a billionair etc etc.. he has

totally redeemed himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love being a Blazer fan.

:)

-Sophia

That which prematurely arrives at perfection soon perishes. - Marcus Fabius Quintilian (35-95AD) Roman Rhetorician, Critic

by BlazerFan1 on Jun 27, 2008 11:52 AM PDT reply actions  

Whitsett

Drafted 6’9” players for every position

Nash and Patterson drafted whoever was the WPA

I remember the good old days. The Rasta Monsta days.

by GreatOden'sRaven on Jun 27, 2008 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

not true

you could have done worse than webster…

Ford: Bill, you're claiming victory already? Have you had a "Mission Accomplished" banner printed yet?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624

by ratbastird on Jun 27, 2008 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

WPA = "Whitsett Player Available"

Whatever that means…

"...and that loud noise you hear coming is the Portland Trailblazers." - Charles Barkley

by RebelRogue on Jun 27, 2008 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Could have done better too

paul and williams

President of the Petteri Koponen fan club.

by Sabonis4Ever on Jun 27, 2008 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh pish posh apple sauce

Those losers will be out of the league in 3 years, mark my words.

It might be because the guv’mint shuts the NBA down for massive corruption and game rigging, but either way my prediction will remain true.

Mortimer

by Mortimer on Jun 29, 2008 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think that the main reason

that Bayless fell was the fact that he IS a combo G and of them he was not ranked first among combo Gs with Mayo being the highest rated.

I do find it wierd that LAC did not grab Bayless as I considered him higher than Gordon, even though Iiked Gordon. I guess LAC did not do their homework, as Bayless played one of the most difficult schedules in the nation playing in the pac10, and the 3-4 games that he was out UA went like 1-3 and were a pretty average team.

Why Westbrook got drafted over him I do not know but going into the draft I had Bayless as the best CG:

Bayless/Westbrook/Gordon/Alexander was my preferred order selection.

Anybody else sleep bad last night thinking of Bayless, Roy, TO, LMA, and Oden dominating on the court in the fall? I did, everytime I closed my eyes I kept thinking WE GOT BAYLESS, WE ARE GOING TO ROCK!! I had to get up and have a sleepytime tea and watch sportscenter repeat a few times at 2am.

SUCH A GOOD TIME TO BE A BLAZER FAN!!!

by SpyderRyder on Jun 27, 2008 12:27 PM PDT reply actions  

Gordon

might be a really good pick for them. He was injured the last half of the season, or he’d have been right up there in the Mayo/Bayless tier, I think.

Not sure about character, but talent is very high.

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Jun 27, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thought of Bayless, Roy, and Rudy, coming down the court with LMA and Oden behind them.

I was the defender and I puked a little in my mouth.

They consider themselves forward thinking in Portland from what friends tell me. Apparently they have this global warming issue handled. They’ve found ways to end your life as a profit making venture. And they’re hip to counter culture icons.

by NBA Observer on Jun 27, 2008

by Kampeska on Jun 27, 2008 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I heard

KP started a rumor that Bayless is a terrorist.

by pualo on Jun 27, 2008 1:29 PM PDT reply actions  

I don't really know why Bayless fell

but I’m getting a kick out of all the Pritchard is a magican capable of pulling Jedi mind tricks on people and getting them to unknowingly do his will.

I don’t put a whole lot of faith in the argument that Pritchard caused other teams to suddenly throw out their draft analysis and go after players (westbrook/alexander/augustin) that he was talking up.

I tend to believe it was more a case as BT describes above. Various factors, including team need, helped allow the guy to slip. Once Seattle passed on him, it was anyboy’s guess where he might land. What Pritchard did do was ensure he had as much information available as possible, not only on the players, but on the needs, draft boards and leanings of other teams. Combine that with all the assets he had on hand and suddenly all sorts of possibilities open up. And KP has shown he knows how to work those possibilities. He doesn’t fool people. He just thinks two steps ahead of them.

by timg56 on Jun 27, 2008 1:46 PM PDT reply actions  

Party-pooper

Listen, I’ve been saying this whole site is all about ME. The rest of the people around here just don’t have the same self confidence (how could they, they aren’t ME, after all), so they like to think things are all about KP.

This is satisfying because it makes you think he can do it again. So it provides hope for our future success as well.

But you are right, KP did not make the other teams do this. He may well have deceived them as to his intentions, but he did not make them pick the way they did.

Yet, Blazer fans, do not despair. For I, the future ruler of the world, am pulling the strings in the NBA, as practice for when I do so on a larger stage. I got us Oden. I banished KG to the East. I made Toronto trade with Indiana so they would trade with us. I, Jscot, future ruler of the world, controlled all these things. Why did N.O. sell us the pick? Because I was there. Who would freely give up 3 2nd rounders, including one from the Knicks, for a player who is locked up in Turkey for five years? No one. But I was there, pulling the strings.

And when we start winning championships, you will all know who to thank. The rest of the world may credit KP and Nate, and it pleases me to have it so, but Bedgers will know. It was ME.

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Jun 27, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I need proof, jscot...

It’s totally cool with me if the future ruler of the world is a Blazer fan with psychic powers. I would be among the first to bow and hail the new lord and emperor or whatever. But I am not one to place faith blindly. If you are who you say you are, tell us what you plan to do with RLEC. If it happens exactly as you say, I will pledge allegiance to your cause.

"...and that loud noise you hear coming is the Portland Trailblazers." - Charles Barkley

by RebelRogue on Jun 27, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

PROOF?

I said it. Thus, it is so.

RLEC? A brief explanation here. Any effective authority delegates to underlings who carry out the necessary tasks. So what do I plan to do with RLEC? Delegate that decision to KP, of course. And it is going to happen exactly as I just said. KP will decide.

Thank you for joining the team.

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Jun 28, 2008 2:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

do you have a royal seal?

or do you not fashion yourself as a monarch? Maybe you are more into secular dictatorships? Whatever it is, I bow before thy wisdom and power.

by premthegrem on Jun 28, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll let the people decide

whether it is monarchy or whatever. I don’t really care.

Like I’ve said, I don’t even want the job. I’ll just do it by acclamation because I’m such a nice person. So we’ll be democratic and vote on the nature of my rule. But it will be absolute, we can count on that. The people will insist.

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Jun 29, 2008 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

hahaha!

rec

"We didn't get our annual free complimentary player from Phoenix this year:("

raoulduke

by ptwnblzr on Jun 28, 2008 2:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

LOL

also rec

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Jun 28, 2008 2:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well said

The teams may have ranked Bayless at #4 but on an 0-100 rating system there were apparently some that did not think the final rating for players 3-20 was significant leading some to take their preference in position or other factors.

KP does business deals with 29 other GMs. His genius is being able to anticipate their needs and his moves are always win-win (well except for Isiah and even then the GM thought he got the win)

Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."

by lee3022 on Jun 29, 2008 1:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you are truly that powerful....

... convince my wife that it’s ok for me to quit my job and put myself up for stud. I hear that stud fees are very lucrative.

I just have to overlook the part about doing it with a horse or cow.

by timg56 on Jun 27, 2008 2:47 PM PDT reply actions  

Of course

you would also need me to pull strings in other quarters as well, so that there would be someone somewhere who would actually want you to serve in that capacity.

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Jun 28, 2008 2:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Have you ever seen how they do it?

I can’t speak for the equine stud process, but with cattle, the bull never sees a cow. They bring out a steer to excite the bull. (That says all sorts of weird things I don’t even want to consider.) Then just as the bull is about to mount the steer (who doesn’t look exactly pleased by the turn of events) a guy (or gal) jumps in with a sock like device, slips it over the old RR and collects the semen.

If you ever think your job sucks, just think. You could be that bull sock guy (or gal).

I’d just ask for a magazine and tell them to come back in 10 minutes.

by timg56 on Jun 30, 2008 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

The "Specialization Theory of Draft Value"

I accept sole responsibility, and fault, for the awkward term expressed in my headline.

SpyderRyder (see above) posits an interesting explanation for Bayless falling – that he is a combo guard. The implication is that combo players fall through the cracks of the “draft market” because they are valued less, on the average, than players with a definite pegged specialty. In the current basketball era, specialty refers to positions 1,2,3,4, and 5, as well as, to some extent, on-court specialties such as three-point shooting, etc. This is a hypothesis in need of facts for proof or rejection. I don’t have those facts at hand for such a test, but I would like to offer an analogous arena, the stock market, where such an explanation of value is clearly valid.

It is a fact that the valuations of common stocks, on the average, are inversely correlated with the degree of diversification of their underlying companies. This is to say that the stocks of companies that are highly specialized generally trade at higher valuations (relative to their earnings, cash flows, net worths, etc.) than the equities of firms that are less specialized in their businesses and instead more diversified.

I could review various evidences of this; I’ll cite just two. (1) “Conglomerates”, which are firms that own several unrelated businesses, typically trade at the lowest valuations in the market. (2) Specialized ubsidiaries of larger corporate entities that are “spun off” to shareholders [by issuing to the parent companies’ shareholders stock in the smaller enterprise, eventually go on to trade at higher price/earnings ratios than their parents. This is one reason spin-offs are made—in order to increase the total market value of the enterprise for current shareholders.

Why does this happen? Because Wall Street firms, the root source of demand for stocks, are structured in such a way as to assign analysts to cover specific industries. Nearly all of the large investment houses, for example, have one or more auto analysts, drug company analysts, etc. Thus, stocks that fall neatly into an industry category get analyst coverage, while stocks that don’t (diversified firms) do not. It is axiomatic that the more analysts following a stock, the more analysts are likely to recommend it to their portfolio managers and clients and thereby, in the aggregate of their actions, produce a higher price valuation. “Combo companies” do not receive this benefit and are therefore reduced in value.

Is it possible that a similar phenomenon is at work in the, shall we say, somewhat “amorphous” world of valuing college freshmen entering the NBA draft? Note: Don’t attempt to prove or disprove this solely by examining the top dozen selections in the current draft; a validation (or rejection) of the hypothesis requires a larger sampling of players, and would be further enhanced by interviews of current or past general managers to ascertain their motivations. A worthwhile research project, I believe. Does anyone out there care to do the work, or at least start the investigation by calling up Kevin Pritchard to ask what he thinks of it?

I do not have a preconceived notion of the answer, but the implications for understanding player drafts and salaries may be quite significant—for fans, for general managers, and, especially, for players.

by blazerwizard on Jun 27, 2008 4:03 PM PDT reply actions  

Interesting stuff

In the NBA draft, there’s such a small sample size that it is hard to tell. And there are so many other factors as well. A valuable guard, whether specialist or combo, may drop just because a team needs a big man. That isn’t something you’ll see in the equity markets so much. Yes, one investor may want to diversify and thus avoid a particular industry, but that one investor doesn’t own the #1 pick, or whatever pick. It’s an open market, and so market valuations will not be skewed by individual investor needs, whereas draft valuations will be skewed by individual team needs.

I would suggest that the “specialization” factor is just one of many that can wildly distort the order of the draft vs. real value.

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Jun 28, 2008 2:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

I kind of thought

my esoteric commentary would bring this post subject to a screeching halt, and I guess it did. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Of course, there are many factors that create a draft order; the question is whether specialization is one of them. Obviously, I tend to think so, though it is only an hypothesis. If I am right: (1) GMs need to allow for combo players falling further in the draft before slotting them for “purchase”; (2) college coaches are doing a major disservice to young men qualified to consider an NBA career if they deprive those players of their specialty solely in the interest of “greater team needs” - they do have an obligation, after all, to see that their most “prized students” succeed to the greatest extent in their careers; (3) the players themselves should select teams and coaches that will allow them to develop their specialty skills even as they learn a well-rounded game - and high school athletes should be permitted to hire agents in helping them enter the player factor that big-time college athletics has become, and (4) fans should temper their enthusiasm (or disdain) for draft picks by understanding this nature of the market.

Here is a related observation: Central to my economic argument (I won’t belabor the reasons) is the fact that the average opinion of all market participants as to the value of an item in a market (be it a common stock, a basketball player, or whatever), is not what creates the clearing price; rather it is the most optimistic opinion, since that optimist, if he hasn’t already purchased the item, represents the current demand. In a draft, there is only one buyer per player, so the greatest optimist (at a given draft position) creates the market by selecting that particular player ahead of all the other choices.

This is why, without exception, every team is happy with every draft pick—they are simply most optimistic at that point in the draft regarding the relative value of the player they selected compared to all other players available at that draft position. A corollary to this is that, since average opinion is probably a more accurate guage of value than is the opinion of the wildest optimist, most items (players) in the market are overpriced most of the time and, in the case of the NBA, fans and general managers are far more frequently ultimately disillusioned with their draft picks than pleasantly surprised. Buyer’s remorse, as it is called.

by blazerwizard on Jun 28, 2008 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

The part about college coaches

is debatable.

Some teams value flexibility. While your point about specialization may be valid to some extent, it may be a negative in other ways. When a roster is limited, a guy who can play more than one position provides valuable injury cover. Also, if a team wants a three guard rotation, you want at least two guys who can play both guard spots.

Bayless provides a classic example of a player who may have been helped. Sure, it may have contributed to his “drop”. But it also meant he was the guy wanted for this team. Bayless, because of the team he is on, will probably have a better career, and probably more lucrative, than if he had been picked fifth by Memphis or (horrors) sixth by NY. He will be a key player, possibly an all-star, on a team with multiple championships, and when he becomes a restricted FA, he will be offered lots of money, which PA will match.

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Jun 29, 2008 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, I forgot

The “greatest optimist” point is interesting and valid, except….

The greatest optimist may not be in a position to exercise his optimism, because he picks 24th or whatever.

If KP had the fourth pick, I truly believe he would have grabbed Bayless, and that he wasn’t blowing smoke when he said he was fourth on their board. But the price for Bayless was not created by KP’s optimism, because he couldn’t dictate that price.

So basically, the greatest optimist has to be so optimistic that he will be willing to pay the price to exercise that optimism as well, for his optimism to really determine the price.

KP was prepared to trade up to 11, perhaps higher, to exercise his optimism about Bayless. Actually, if the Bobcats had taken Bayless, it may be that KP would have traded up to 11 and taken Augustin. But I kind of think that if they had taken Bayless, KP would have traded to 11 to get Augustin and then traded Augustin plus something to get Bayless.

This is all kind of complicated, and perhaps I’m not following everything you say. But in general, I agree with your premise that average opinion does not determine price, but optimistic opinion. Just a minor disclaimer that it has to be actionable optimism. Interesting stuff.

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Jun 29, 2008 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

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