Career Trajectories of Early Entry G-F, Part 1
All of the debate and discussion about the value of the young talent on the Blazers and how much the Blazers should get back in any trade of its young assets raises a very interesting set of questions: how much do players improve, on average from year to year? Do they improve quickly early in their career and then level off or is it more gradual assent? How many years does it take for a player to plateau? Or, more specifically, how good are Webster and Outlaw going to be in a couple of years? Are there many players at their position that go from their level of production during their third years in the league to being NBA All-stars? What is the chance that they regress? Certainly there are many players that take a step backwared in their fourth or fifth seniors, like Leandro Barbosa, Luke Ridnour, Kirk Henrich, Ben Gordon, and Juwan Howard--and that's not counting players that sustain a significant injury, like Darius Miles.
Obviously, a lot depends on the individual player. Players that are dedicated to their games improve more than those that are not (duh!). On the other hand, raw players have, by definition, more room to improve (see Ridnour). There may also be differences in player improvement by the age a player enters the league, by position, by NBA era, by skill set, and by team environment. On the other hand, not using the history of other players to inform one's projections about current players just because they are not identical seems unwise to me.
Thanks to basketballdatabase.com it is now possible to address these questions quantitatively. Data on every player that played from 1950 to 2006 is freely available. So, having a little free time, I downloaded the data and crunched the numbers. In order to focus my analysis, I selected a sample of players that I consider a reasonable comparison group to Webster and Outlaw, while leaving in enough players to have some "statistical" power. I know most BEs aren't really interested in confidence intervals or the finer points of statistics and probability, but it should be pretty obvious that if, in the last 20 years, there is only one player of Webster's height, weight, position, age of entry, and first year stats, we probably aren't going to learn much by just comparing him to that person. It turns out that there are relatively few players (36) that have entered the league at age 19 or younger and played for five seasons by 2006-07. However, I think this is an important enough issue that, in general, I went with smaller samples with players more Webster-like and Outlaw-like players rather than larger samples with many players that were quite different from Webster and Outlaw.
There are many different ways to try to answer the questions posed above, and I've used three different approaches (two shown in this post). The first is relatively simple: I selected all players that entered the league at the age of 19 or younger and were between 6 ft and 6ft 9in, started their careers after 1980, and had at least 5 years of experience. With this sample, I calculated the average production by year of experience (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th). That is, the table below shows how many points, rebounds, assists, etc that the average early entry guards and forwards produced per 36 minutes in their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th seasons. In this analysis, it is important to restrict the sample to players with 5 years of experience because if players leave the sample after their second year, then the averages calculated for the 3rd, 4th, and 5th years will be from a different group of players than those calculated for years 1 and 2. Scaling the "stats" to "stats" per 36 minutes is also important since playing time can vary greatly depending on team depth, coach, etc. Here are the results:
Table 1
|
Year |
MIN/G |
PTS/36 |
REB/36 |
A/36 |
S/36 |
TO/36 |
FG% |
FT% |
3P% |
|
1 |
21.19 |
14.52 |
6.62 |
2.83 |
1.33 |
2.90 |
42.2% |
68.9% |
22.0% |
|
2 |
26.51 |
16.28 |
6.45 |
3.38 |
1.31 |
2.73 |
45.1% |
71.1% |
25.7% |
|
3 |
29.12 |
16.12 |
6.40 |
3.51 |
1.37 |
2.64 |
43.4% |
72.8% |
28.0% |
|
4 |
31.88 |
17.33 |
6.58 |
3.42 |
1.31 |
2.38 |
44.4% |
75.1% |
26.6% |
|
5 |
33.65 |
18.46 |
6.48 |
3.44 |
1.30 |
2.66 |
45.7% |
74.9% |
28.4% |
What do they say? Probably depends one what your expectations were. As much as anything, rookies look surprisingly productive, they just do not have the trust of their coaches to get minutes. Second, some parts of the game have a different learning curve than others. Points, FT% and 3P% show a pretty steady improvement. Steals, Turnovers, and FG% surprisingly, bounce around. And Rebound productivity, if anything, declines. Secondly, there is still a considerable amount of improvement to be had for players that were 21 in their third year in the NBA. On the other hand, by these numbers it would appear unlikely that a player averaging 13 points per 36 minutes in their third year, like Webster or Outlaw, will become a scoring champion by their fifth year... even though scoring is one of the areas where players improve the most. While it's true that Webster and Outlaw got slower starts than the average player in this sample, they really weren't wildly different by year 2:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/webstma02.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/outlatr01.html
In case you are wondering, here is the career trajectory for a similar sample of players that played at least 8 seasons (though the sample only includes 12 players):
Table 2
|
Year |
MIN/G |
PTS/36 |
REB/36 |
A/36 |
S/36 |
TO/36 |
FG% |
FT% |
3P% |
|
1 |
20.79 |
15.25 |
6.80 |
2.90 |
1.40 |
3.19 |
41.9% |
0.7105 |
0.2366 |
|
2 |
26.45 |
17.04 |
6.48 |
3.41 |
1.40 |
2.79 |
45.4% |
0.7325 |
0.2643 |
|
3 |
31.03 |
16.77 |
6.31 |
3.84 |
1.51 |
2.80 |
44.1% |
0.7649 |
0.3149 |
|
4 |
33.91 |
18.39 |
6.52 |
3.57 |
1.43 |
2.60 |
45.6% |
0.7784 |
0.2919 |
|
5 |
36.85 |
19.08 |
6.56 |
3.71 |
1.34 |
2.62 |
45.2% |
0.7801 |
0.3108 |
|
6 |
36.28 |
19.99 |
6.74 |
3.56 |
1.25 |
2.64 |
46.2% |
0.7865 |
0.3243 |
|
7 |
37.52 |
19.68 |
6.23 |
3.76 |
1.36 |
2.69 |
45.8% |
0.7717 |
0.3371 |
|
8 |
36.85 |
18.75 |
6.25 |
3.88 |
1.33 |
2.58 |
45.2% |
0.7816 |
0.3211 |
They show the same general pattern. Note, however, that these players plateau in their 6th season from a statistical stand-point.
Now there are a lot of reasons to question the validity of any inferences using this data. A fairly obvious problem is that both samples were quite small. An alternative approach would be to include players that started later in their careers and look at productivity by age. By including players that started when they were 21 or younger, we loose the unique experience of players that entered the NBA as teenagers, but we get more players (91) and it is still interesting. So, the next table shows the progression of the same type of players (6ft to 6ft 9in, started careers by 1980, etc):
Table 3
|
Age |
MIN/G |
PTS/36 |
REB/36 |
A/36 |
S/36 |
TO/36 |
FG% |
FT% |
3P% |
|
21 |
26.01 |
16.46 |
6.36 |
3.48 |
1.39 |
2.80 |
0.4518 |
0.7292 |
0.2172 |
|
22 |
29.26 |
17.39 |
6.36 |
3.64 |
1.33 |
2.72 |
0.4652 |
0.7455 |
0.239 |
|
23 |
30.60 |
17.69 |
6.42 |
3.72 |
1.34 |
2.58 |
0.468 |
0.7543 |
0.2406 |
|
24 |
31.89 |
18.01 |
6.31 |
3.67 |
1.27 |
2.55 |
0.4681 |
0.7666 |
0.2517 |
|
25 |
30.98 |
17.49 |
6.25 |
3.62 |
1.27 |
2.42 |
0.4643 |
0.772 |
0.255 |
|
26 |
31.21 |
17.46 |
6.35 |
3.70 |
1.29 |
2.46 |
45.9% |
0.7716 |
0.2906 |
|
27 |
29.98 |
17.15 |
6.02 |
3.50 |
1.21 |
2.32 |
45.9% |
0.7823 |
0.2863 |
|
28 |
28.11 |
16.28 |
5.89 |
3.57 |
1.13 |
2.35 |
44.4% |
0.7647 |
0.2694 |
This pattern reinforces, more or less, the observations made above. Players definitely improve, on average, over time, but expecting dramatic improvement is probably questionable, because some players get worse and some players do not improve a great deal after the age of 22 in terms of rare productivity.
Conclusion:
In my first cut of looking at the experience of other players "like" Webster and "like" Outlaw, it's clear that players tend to improve after their 3rd seasons, but that they do not tend to improve enough for either Webster or Outlaw to turn into all-star caliber players. Strictly speaking these figures do not provide a way to project Webster or Outlaws future, but if we were to do so, any where between 12 and 17 points per game would seem reasonable. Therefore, in my view, those that expect a lot of improvement from Outlaw and Webster and those that don't expect much, both have plausible arguments. One group is being optimistic, another pessimistic.
In my next post, I will use some slightly more advanced analytical tools to make projections for Outlaw and Webster's production in future seasons. These methods (OLS regression) will provide me with a way to try to address the fact that both Webster and Outlaw were relatively "raw" players when they entered the league. The types of conclusions I have drawn thus far, assumes that the amount of improvement does not depend much on one's initial productivity, which might turn out to be false. Should be interesting.
Thoughts?
Footnote:
A statistical caveat: the amount of improvement suggested by tables 1 through 3 is biased upward to some degree. Since I dropped all those players that fell out of the league entirely and were unable to play, the players in the sample are all, in a sense, successful players-it doesn't include the washouts. On the other hand, given that I expect Martell and Outlaw to last well beyond their fifth seasons and older players are as likely, if not more likely, to have a career ending injury, I think it's reasonable to restrict the sample in this way.
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Comments
Draftexpress
They did something similar and found a player’s 5th year stats correlates very well to that players average stats over the next 5 years (at least much better than the 4 prior seasons). It looks like 2 great minds came to the same conclusion.
Joel Freeland=Stud
Great post
but you seem to miss the point. Certain of those in the group you first tabled did make it to an all-star game right? You’re treating the entire class as one person.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
More or lesss
You’re treating the entire class as one person.
More or less, that’s right. The tables above reduce all players of a certain type (age of entry, height, etc) to one player, a representative player that we migiht call “the average player” of that type. It’s the career trajectory of that average player. Some players in that group made it into the all-star game before and after their fifth season (Lebron James, for example), some made it into the All-Star game later in their career, some got worse… the tables above aggregate (by averaging) those experiences to a single set of numbers for each year.
As I said, in my next post I’ll make projections that take into account some of the unique attributes of Webster and Outlaw (points scored in first, second, and third season, points scored in season 1 squared, etc)... though these projections will also contain a considerable degree of error/uncertainty… and are really just a different way to look at something that everyone has been discussing.
I probably should have labled the conclusions, “tenative conclusions” or “initial conclusions”... if I could edit the post, I’d probably do so.
Wow!
You’ve done a lot of work on this, and it is quite interesting. Good job! A couple of thoughts …
You’re using the means here (averages), but we don’t get a feel for the variance of these figures. Standard deviations might be helpful.
Despite the apparent trends, I’m going to persist in believing that Martell will indeed develop into at least a reasonable starter and that Travis will at least become a serviceable 6th man. In fact, with a bit more consistency, I’d say they’re already at that point.
Moreover, I’ll continue to maintain my conviction that they will surpass those meager expectations. I think both of these guys have tended to rely on their nature abilities to this point, which can only take you so far. It seems from remarks I’ve heard from Travis and Martell that they are intent on improving now. The word “all-star” has come up, I believe.
When people who possess substantial natural gifts begin to understand the importance of hard work, they can begin to realize their fullest potential. These guys are not like Sheed or Miles or any number of other players we’ve seen who basically coasted through their careers. They may not have as much talent as some (but they may, too), but I have no doubt they’ll work harder.
Again, though, very nice post!
"Shoot, I don't even have anything to put in my own sig"
These are the modest words of pualo, posted on June 20, 2008.
Yes, pualo, an extraordinarily discerning BEdger with a knack for subtle expression.
Thanks
You are more than welcome to persist in your expectations for Martell and Outlaw. Given what I’ve seen in the data, you certainly could be right! There certainly isn’t enough data or the right type of data to say with 100% certainty exactly what will happen. On the other hand, it should not shock you if either one of them regress. Where I’m coming from is… neither one of them is guaranteed to improve a “great deal” or transform their game. If they are “normal” players of their type, they will probably be very valuable members of the Blazers, but the Blazers might have other needs that mean it makes sense to trade them. Maybe.
What I find interesting about this is that it’s a case where decisions REQUIRE making projections about the future. Pritchard is not considering trading Webster or Outlaw last year with play A, B, or C last year… he’s trading on their futures. So, how do we best project the future? I’m on Pritchard’s side when he says that quantitative analysis can be one additional way to help people make those projections. Plus, I enjoy crunching numbers.
RE variance: Great comment. Variance seemed like a more technical issue—one that many foks would not want to read about… I was pushing it with this post as it was. In the next analysis, I will try to give a sense of the variation that exists in player trajectories.
Thanks for the thorough work
If you took out all the players who didn’t make it for 5 years, you should probably take out all the superstars too. I doubt Outlaw or Webster will ever be a superstar, at least not on the Blazers, when at best, they are the 4th option. The superstars may fudge the data upwards.
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
My thought is
that the player’s position might also be a factor. You’ve arbitrarily limited height, but as has been pointed out several times this week during workouts that a good many players aren’t as tall as reported – but some are. Therefore I’m not sure that reported height is valid (or important) enough to be a factor. But many people have asserted that it takes point guards longer to develop. If true, having pgs in your sample might skew it some. I’d rather see it limited to forwards including those over 6’9”. But then it’s your exercise so you get to determine the parameters. :-)
But it is fun to see the numbers and to try to decide if we have given our guys enough time. Of course then it morphs from numbers into people and everything goes out the window .
If it keep on Tradin', the Team gonna break - BlueBooYay 6/21/08
thanks
Good suggestions. I think you are right about position. Turns out the basketballdatabase.com data has really funky position info. It splits players into G/F/C. If it did the normal, PG/SG/SF/PF/C I would have only included SG and SF, but F includes power forwards and SF and G includes PGs and Shooting guards. As it turns out, Stephon Marbury and Tony Parker are the only two “pure” PGs in the sample from table 1. It also includes combo guards Gilbert Arenas and Larry Hughes. I should list the sample. I’ll do that.
Interesting stuff, PoliSam
I would have done much better in my stats class last year if we had been doing standard deviations and power tests and basic regression analysis of Blazers prospects instead of random data sets. :) Now I have visions of ANOVA and chi-squared tests dancing around in my head…I thought I had escaped them forever…thanks for nothing, man!
The Sample of Players
I should of included the sample of players… at least for table 1, just to give an idea of the players whose careers are being averaged. They are:
Shareef-Abudur Rahim
Gilbert Arenas
Ron Artest
K*be Bryant
Ricky Davis
Al Harrington
Larry Hughes
Shawn Kemp
Rashard Lewis
Corey Maggette
Stephon Marbury
Tracy McGrady
Darius Miles
Lamar Odom
Tony Parker
DeShawn Stevenson
Amare Stoudemire
Gerald Wallace
A few comments:
-The sample includes a couple of PF.
-Lebron misses the cut because there aren’t enough seasons of him playing in the basketballdatabase.com data set.
I’d say the players most similar to Outlaw and Wallace in seasons 1-3 are:
Gerald Wallace
Darius Miles
DeShawn Stevenson
Rashard Lewis
Ricky Davis
Interestingly, the two biggest successes in that group, Lewis and Wallace had very different early careers. Rashard Lewis was quite a bit more productive than Outlaw or Webster by year three, while Gerald Wallace had a decent rookie season and a dreadful third season, before bouncing back to becoming an excellent player. I do not know much about Wallace, but his career trajectory is quite unusual and highlights the fact that the average experience of NBA players is not destiny.
Pace adjusted?
Are these numbers pace adjusted from year to year? I see that being an important factor in comparing these players as a coaching change can lead to players looking better or worse than they actually are. A good example is Anthony Carter last year. His pace adjusted stats are not as impressive as his raw stats.
You also might want to check out John Hollinger’s similarity scores as he does a lot of this in his basketball prospectus. You might also get helpful tips at APBRmetrics as they are into this garbage.
BTW what program are you doing your analysis in? I usually just use excel or numbers, but I hate both of them, so I would be interested in other programs if you have any recommendations.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
All great commetns
Adding pace adjustment would be a good idea. I think I know how to include that.
I used STATA (v10). It’s very easy to use and is especially useful for merging together different datasets, which was required for this. It’s fairly expensive; not something you would buy just for fun—I have it because I am a PhD candidate in a quant-heavy Political Science program. “R” (Yes, just the letter capital r) is freely downloadable, but not especially user friendly, unless you already know C.


































