The Leandro Barbosa File
by Dave on Jun 21, 2008 1:04 AM PDT
Email
Print
(Sorry this is so late. Baby Point Guard needed lots of watching tonight.)
Since the rumor has been floating around that the Blazers and Suns are considering a deal which would send Leandro Barbosa to
Leandro Barbosa: 6’3’ guard, 25 years old, 5-year veteran
SIGNIFICANT STATS: (All from 2007-08 unless otherwise noted.)
15.6 ppg (18.1 the season prior)
46.2% field goal shooting (46.9% career)
38.9% three-point shooting (40.9% career)
82.2% free throw shooting
2.6 assists
1.4 turnovers
2.4 rebounds
PROS:
Barbosa is a slasher. He loves to score and can get to the hoop. He has always been a great percentage shooter, though his repertoire has been largely layups or long balls. He used to have no mid-range game but he has worked on it. He can hit the three. He’s a great free throw shooter. He specializes in hitting difficult shots. Being long for his size and very quick aids him in his assault on the basket. He takes reasonable care of the ball for a speed guard. He’s a hard worker and a good guy by all reports. He has generally lived up to increased minutes and responsibility as his career has progressed. He’s also on the perfect timetable for
Pretty much all of these attributes fit the Blazers like a glove. They need aggressiveness, shooting, and more scoring, especially if Barbosa were to come off the bench.
CONS:
The biggest knock on Barbosa by far has been his sub-par defense. Of course it’s hard to tell with any
SALARY:
Barbosa made $6.1 million this past season. He is guaranteed through 2010-11 with his final year’s salary being $7.1 million. He also has a player option for 2011-12 at $$7.6 million. That’s not a significant increase over 3-4 years. Basically his salary is flat-lined.
Barbosa is a Base Year Compensation Player this year. That means that if he were to be traded before July 1st his new team would have to take on all $5.8 million of his salary but could only give back $2.9 million to the Suns. Obviously that only works if his new team is a couple million under the cap, which
The Base Year Compensation designation expires on July 1st. So while Portland would be extremely unlikely to trade Webster and the #13 pick to Phoenix immediately they could well choose a player for Phoenix at #13 and bundle that player with Webster after July 1.
Unless a whole bunch of other players come under consideration in the trade the “other considerations” from Portland’s end would pretty much have to be Jarrett Jack, Sergio Rodriguez, or Josh McRoberts
CAP SPACE RAMIFICATIONS:
There’s a fair amount of confusion out there about what this trade could mean to our cap situation in the summer of 2009-10. Here is the scoop:
Barbosa is scheduled to make $6.6 million that summer.
The #13 pick in this year’s draft would be scheduled to make $1.6 million that summer.
Martell Webster and the Blazers are in a decision year with regards to 2009-10.
Option 1: The Blazers could extend Martell’s contract this year. We don’t know what the exact number would be in that case but it’s a pretty sure bet Webster would not sign for much less than the $5 million qualifying offer he’s eligible to receive.
Option 2: The Blazers could offer, and Martell could accept, a qualifying offer of a one-year contract for $5 million. This contract would be good for one year after which Martell would become an unrestricted free agent.
If either of these options were exercised Martell’s salary would be at least $5 million. That means Martell and the #13 pick would total at least $6.6 million of cap space in the summer of 2009-10, exactly the same as Barbosa’s contract. The Blazers would neither lose nor gain cap space by making the trade.
Option 3: Martell can elect to become a restricted free agent during the summer of 2009-10. Technically he’d still belong to the Blazers but other teams would have most of the summer to make him offers. The Blazers would have the right to match any offer given in order to retain him. HOWEVER… (and this is the key point here) until a contract is actually signed a hold will be placed on a portion of the Blazers’ salary cap, much like a hold is placed on your credit card when you check into a hotel for the maximum amount you might spend regardless of what you actually do end up spending. This hold will be from 250-300% of his previous salary. That means during the free agent signing period in 2009-10 Martell would not count against the cap for $5 million, rather he will be on the books for somewhere between $9.5 and $11.3 million.
If Option 3 is taken the Blazers will actually have less cap space available for signing free agents in the summer of 2009-10 than they would making the Barbosa deal. Granted this would not be permanent, but the hold would occur precisely in the critical moment of the critical year for the Blazers to get business done with their cap space.
Option 4: The Blazers can let Martell play out his current contract and simply renounce him. In that case his $3.8 million salary would come off the books next summer. This is the only option that affects the Blazer salary cap positively when compared to the Barbosa deal. It is also, by far, the least likely option to be taken. Because of his age, potential, and shooting ability Martell is at least a semi-valuable commodity on the market. The Blazers need to get something for him.
By my calculations even acquiring Barbosa and retaining everybody on the team whose contract doesn’t expire after next season (in other words basically losing only Raef LaFrentz, James Jones, and Steve Francis’ contract) the Blazers would sit at $47.1 million in the summer of 2009-10. The current cap is $55.6 million and it will likely be slightly higher then. That means the team would have $8-9 million in cap room to play with that summer even if they kept everybody. Considering that Steve Blake has a $4.9 million team option, Channing Frye has a $4.3 million qualifying offer, and Jarrett Jack has a $2.9 million qualifying offer the Blazers could still find $20 million in cap space if they thought that’s what they needed. The Barbosa trade would probably not affect the cap in any major sense.
TRADE ANALYSIS:
All of that said, this trade still involves considerable grey area:
--Phoenix is a great team, but they’re Phoenix. We’re not Phoenix. You’re always suspicious of someone coming out of that system. It makes stars of players who have struggled elsewhere, but what happens when those players return to the rest of the league? Will their production translate?
--This trade is pretty much a cheaper version of the Ben Gordon trade (both in absolute dollars and in what you’d have to give up, assuming you’re a Travis fan). It has many of the same good points, but also raises many of the same questions. Can Barbosa co-exist with Roy in the backcourt? Who handles the ball? Who takes the shots? Can you run sets with two ball-handling shooting guards instead of one good point guard setting people up? Is Barbosa a starter or a super-sub? What role does HE envision?
--How much more growth potential does Barbosa have versus Martell and the #13 pick? Have we seen his best?
--Equally important is the assessment of what you have in Martell. Will he develop into a legit starter? And, by the way, will he be happy being a Blazer? He’s no better than fourth option on next year’s team and he’s probably the fifth. It’s not like he’d be one or two in Phoenix but he’d likely get more offensive opportunities there. If you believe Martell is not part of your long-term plans either because of talent, his goals, or his attitude you have to get something for him and you have to do it now.
--If you value Martell’s $3.8 million in cap space next summer enough to take the extreme step of renouncing him outright, what can you get for that money on the open market? Barbosa is about the level of guy you’d expect to sign. Other teams aren’t going to let superstars go. He’s a talented player. He’s not perfect, but you may not find that perfect guy. Do other potential free agents or trade acquisitions bring you more than this?
--Most importantly of all, is Phoenix willing? This is hardly the only offer to come across their table for Barbosa. In fact this may be an offer that was leaked in order to generate new ones.
Most of these things depend on the kind of knowledge that only people inside the organization have. We can’t guess at Martell’s outlook, the Blazers’ future game plan, or the Suns’ desire. Personally I don’t like tweener guards much, especially ones that concentrate on scoring, so I’m naturally skeptical. But taking everything into consideration it seems like a coin flip. This is one of those deals that’s close enough and has enough behind-the-scenes intricacy that you have to say if KP goes for it there must be a reason, even if we don’t see it. On the other hand if it doesn’t happen there are probably reasons for that too. You just hope they aren’t all on the side of the Suns.
One way or another, this rumor raises the legit question of whether we’ll be picking for ourselves next Thursday. The pot is stirred further.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
76 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Makes enough sense not to be a smokescreen entirely
especially since the parallels between the Barbosa rumor and the Gordon rumor are so obvious. However, like I said, it’s certainly possible that the talks are dead and the deal was made public in order to strengthen and/or generate other offers.
That said, it often happens that when the smoke clears the early offers get resurrected and some do go through.
—Dave
Please no!
May I just say that I hope it is a smoke screen. Another combo gaurd? When we have Jack and we’re getting Rudy? Really? Leaving us James Jones as our SF? This is not a good idea.
I like Barbosa as a player, but he’s not a point gaurd. He’s a scorer with point guard size. I truly believe we NEED a distributer at the PG spot, ala Steve Blake, not Jarrett Jack or Barbosa.
I am the master of my fate, I am the Captain of my soul. - Charles Wesley
Thank you for the much needed clarity...
And for finally bringing a sensible analysis of what seems like a not very productive trade.
I think this is a “grass is always greener ” scenerio that will not make the TEAM better, no matter what the individual talents of Martell vs Barbosa are.
And for some silly reason, while reading some of the posts demanding to do the trade, I keep imagining ghostly chants of “GIVE US BARABAS!” (No religious connotations intended!)
My hope is that any trade that’s made to clear roster, cap room or player upgrade happens after the draft, after summer league, after training camp, after preseason, after some regular season games…
Let these guys play together for awhile with Rudy, Greg, Petteri(?) and draft choice before monkey wrenching the alchemical balance they seem to have developed as of the end of last season…
...In my opinion (simply a fan, not an “expert”)
by balladofgregoden on Jun 21, 2008 2:18 AM PDT reply actions
This is what I keep saying. Right on!
"Shoot, I don't even have anything to put in my own sig"
These are the modest words of pualo, posted on June 20, 2008.
Yes, pualo, an extraordinarily discerning BEdger with a knack for subtle expression.
The deciding factor to me
is defense. Boston proved again the need to defend first. We have scorers that are taller and more adept ball-handlers in Roy and Rudy (reportedly). If all we want is a scoring guard alongside of Roy then the team has Rudy. If what we want is a distributor alongside of Roy then we have two and maybe three better ones already. In addition to giving up two players to get one and not knowing what that one will bring I would rather trade #13 to Phoenix for a 2011 1st rounder when Shaq is done and likely Nash as well and they are in the cellar.
Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."
Great analysis, as always
My problem with Barbosa is his lack of improvement and that his negatives (which are really negatives) are the exact things we NEED to get stronger at in our PG spot: Defense, and BBIQ. Barbosa is known to be really bad at both.
We don’t need MORE scoring, which is what Barbosa does well, in either of our lineups. Our starters won’t have much problems, and the backups have Outlaw and Rudy. Adding another bad defender/bad shot selection/all scorer/low BBIQ guy to go alongside Outlaw doesn’t seem like the wisest of decisions. For all the same reasons, he’s a bad fit for the starting lineup.
And since he wouldn’t guard anyone better than Blake or Jack, all he would improve is our 3 point shooting (which is already great), and our 1 man fastbreakin’. Now, he might get a lot of points from that with Oden blocking shots, but I think we’ll do better at that overall and not need a guy whose only skills rely on him scoring.
With all of the decisions that may come, I trust KP. If he sees something in Barbosa that I am not, I trust him. He has more than earned that trust. I am also fine with moving Outlaw or Martell for the right deal; I just don’t think this is that deal.
Does anyone think we’ll struggle to score in either the white or black unit? We need a facilitator and defender first, scorer second. Not a Travis Outlaw in an undersized SG’s body.
Also, I don’t really think FORCING Outlaw into the starting lineup is a good idea until we can actually see, on the court, that he can play starting level basketball. He hasn’t even shown he can in glimpses, let alone solid 82 game play. His defense, shot selection, and me-first scoring are just better suited for a Vinny Johnson Microwave role… and I certainly hope he improves on all of those things, but since he hasn’t ever shown it before I won’t expect it to appear magically. It CAN be learned, and he could become the starter (it’s up for grabs), but I’d like to see it at least a few games first.
I also hope for no MAJOR trades to happen until everyone gets a chance to show what they can do with Oden in the middle. It’s not unreasonable to believe Oden could help bring out the best in guys like Martell, Frye, or Jack. Their natural improvements from age and hard work over the summer plus Oden being Oden could make any one of them make us believe we were crazy to ever consider trading them.
Barbosa is intriguing, but he flatlined/regressed this past season and has been known for bad play in big games and the playoffs. I just don’t see what he brings to us that we don’t have.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Jun 21, 2008 2:53 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Barbosa vs. type of PG
I haven’t seen enough of Barbosa to know if this deal makes sense. If he’s truly a terrible defender… and has little ability to improve, then this deal doesn’t make sense. Poor defense is a deal breaker for sure.
On the other hand, he seems like the perfect “type” of PG for the Blazers to me. He’s fast. He can drive to the basket. He can score on the fast break, but with him at the point Roy is still the primary playmaker in the half-court, which is what we’d want.
One other thing, there are also a couple of additional options for starting SF, no? Jones and Rudy. Jones health concerns are real, but otherwise he kind seems like a nice fit as starter considering the rest of the fire-power of the remainder of the starting five.
Martell has too much potential to trade for Barbosa..
pretty much i agree with mortimer, except for his assesment of travis outlaw. he is like a glue guy. and he has all the potentials of stardom. i wouldn’t trade him for anything short of Lebron, Kobe, or Tmac. Which could be a likely scenario in years to come, as he improves and tmac starts to age. Givin the chance, Travis will shine in a starting role…as far as barbosa, i like him a lot. but not enough to start mortgaging the future. just doesnt make sense before we see how everybody does with oden.. one other thing, people get too caught up with Roy being the primary playmaker. If we can find some one on a Chris Paul level to distribute the ball, all that does is take pressure off Roy. And even if we got Chris Paul, the ball would likely be in Roy’s hands with the game on the line… Don’t get caught up in the hype…..
by BroyTheTruth on Jun 21, 2008 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions
101% agreed with Mortimer
Let our young cores play together for another. I do believe once Greg Oden stepping into the floor, guys like Martel, Jarret, Sergio will flying all over the court.
Don’t break the chemistry now, wait till next season then make changes.
Go Blazers.
by BlazersD00nie on Jun 21, 2008 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree with what you say about Oden’s presence creating opportunities for other guys, especially if he has a 10-12 foot jumper in his arsenal as has been reported. While I am a fan of Joel Przybilla his offensive skills are basically nonexistent, and knowing this we saw opposing centers not guarding him more than 3 feet from the basket, leaving them free to help on other guys. If Oden can routinely command double teams in the post we would have the opposite situation-guys being free on the perimeter or cutting to the hoop.
I disagree with your last statement regarding Barbosa not bringing anything to us that we don’t have. You said it yourself earlier in your post, that he is a one-man fastbreak and I don’t think any of our guards have his speed or ability in this area.
I dont like this trade at all
I live in Phoenix and see this guy play on TV and at the one or two Blazers games i go to every year. He is a quick player and can get to the hoop, but he looks like a retard when he runs and his shot form is so bad its hard to look at. I personally dislike Barbosa a great deal because he thinks hes really somethin when he is a bench player. I would hate to give up such a valuable piece in Martell, and a valuable trade asset like the #13 pick which could land us an even better PG via draft day trades either with Augustine or Westbrook in the draft, or a much more Point Guardy PG. Leandro is a terrible fit for the blazers and i do not want to see this trade go down
Whats your ring size? 2010
by Gregory Roy Aldridge on Jun 21, 2008 3:41 AM PDT reply actions
I don't think it is a good idea either.
Of course, for the last few weeks or so I have been chanting the mantra of standing pat with what we have, at least until the trading deadline. We will have a much better idea of who works with whom at that point.
Mortimer hits the nail on the head when he says we don’t need another poor defender who takes questionable shots. At least Outlaw’s positives make him a keeper. I don’t see the same thing in Barbosa. He sounds like Sergio with a jumper, and without the passing.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
Chaplain of the Jarrett Jack Fan Club
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
Especially if
Barbosa is the starter, and we trade Martell for him, then Travis becomes the starting SF, and we got two guys I don’t trust together as backups being 40% of our starting lineup. EEKS!
I meant to add, cuz I sez it in another similar thread, that we can live with the things Travis Outlaw does badly in a wing player much more than we can live with a low-BB-IQ-only-good-at-running-and-shooting player at the PG spot… even if he isn’t playing PG when he is with Roy, he still has to be able to do PG things. The defense and bad overall decisions are tough enough with Outlaw, and he doesn’t even handle the ball except to shoot.
Also, if Rudy is what they say he is, he sounds like a much, much better version of Barbosa. Great shooter, but a smart player who can handle the ball and throw amazing passes. I’d rather have him, even if it’s just an idea and a hope of what Rudy will be, occupy the backup guard spot over what we know Barbosa can do.
If we didn’t have Outlaw and needed more offense in our 2nd unit, this would make a lot more sense. Barbosa is GREAT at that, and can get extremely hot and hit eight 3’s. But, fortunately, we don’t need it.
He IS cute as a button though, but we already got a cute team, if we get any cuter I’ll gouge my eyeballs out because they will have seen all the cuteness a human eye can handle. I couldn’t stand any more!
Ok, one more cute player is okay. Barbosa could wear the sombrero and shake the marraccas(sp?) when everyone gets a chalupa, made fresh just like how his momma made him in Mexico.
(See? There is an advantage: Barbosa opens up a whole new line of ‘he’s not Mexican and doesn’t even speak Spanish but I will pretend he is’ jokes that have grown tiresome when associated with Rudy. This is very important to me).
An added benefit of adding Barbosa to the team is that he can help Rudy adjust to the Americas, because they can speak their native tongue of Spanish together. It will really help Rudy communicate with the team if a guy like Barbosa can translate for him!
Mortimer
Blenzer's native tongue is not english
Sorry, maybe there was a joke I didn’t understand…
I’m re-reading your post and am wondering if I understood it the way I should have.
But you did get the joke eventually
that is better than 75% of the people in here.
Morty….quit teasing the foreign guy!
GO says " Sir, you fornicated vertically…observe the consequences!
by 92wastheyear on Jun 21, 2008 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions
We used to have a "Sarcasm font"
it is broken now
GO says " Sir, you fornicated vertically…observe the consequences!
by 92wastheyear on Jun 21, 2008 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
That is true
other teams fans would have gone to Morts house and burn it down
GO says " Sir, you fornicated vertically…observe the consequences!
by 92wastheyear on Jun 21, 2008 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
mixed emotions
Mr webster is a young man who hasnt learned how to play the game. too well yet, ..he is a gifted spot up shooter..thats it.. we are trying to mold him and hope he will rise with us.. marty is a head case who thought he knew it all in high school.. Im sure hes a great person but were trying to bring a dynasty to town,, .. If plays arent called for him and how often will they be with the big 4 plus travis,,. martell is going to continue to vanish..he is too nice a guy to thrive on this team..unless he knows that he’s going to get on average 3 open looks a quarter and that he should take his game to a different level,,. if he can adapt to that without needing couch time that would be great.. he’s our baby so in the end i say keep him .
if it can be conceived it can be achieved
#13 AND Martell ???
Are you kidding me ? For a no D no assist guy ?
If Pritchard does that I’ll start to re-think my assumptions that he’s a great wise GM…
no D?
Didn’t Barbosa guard Kobe in the playoffs a couple years ago when Raja Bell was suspended? Who started this no D rumor? I don’t think its accurate.
Boomshakalaka
It's not a rumor
it’s very accurate.
Saying he defended on player X doesn’t mean that he did it well, just that he did it…
very true
I still need to see some evidence before I buy into the “LB can’t defend” rumor. I certainly think he’d be better defending the Chris Pauls of the world than any current Blazer.
Not saying I’d do this trade necessarily, just curious about the evidence for Barbosa’s defensive struggles.
Boomshakalaka
You're right to
be willing to see it by yourself instead of believing what others say, however, look at LB’s defense next time you see him (be it not in a blazers’ uniform) and you’ll come to the conclusion that he’s not a better defender than our PGs.
keep webster
I’d like to keep Martell at least one more year. I do think he’s developing, and although he will likely never be an all star, he can certainly be a valuable starter on a high level team. I think that with Oden playing this year along with Aldridge, perimeter shooting will become even more important. Martell can hit the jumper when his guy doubles down on the big fellas. He also fits into the culture of the team, and is willing to work on his game. These factors should not be under estimated.
I recall that KP has said that he wants to get more athletic in the back court. Certainly Barbosa would add this element, but I am skeptical that his game is what the Blazers are looking for, If I’m KP, I’m passing (no pun intended) on this one.
I Agree
100% Keep webster Better future player.Has alot more room to grow
by billyjoejack on Jun 21, 2008 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Surprised at the low assist numbers
I would have thought with Nash on the bench, he would be the primary ball handler and would be in the 4-5 assist per game range at least with all those shooters in Phoenix. I would say that is a big red flag for someone who would be playing significant PG minutes.
It looks like a deal that would make much more sense if Rudy were not expected to fill the third guard in the rotation role this season. Without Rudy, having Blake and Roy start and Barbosa play with either one off the bench would seem to cover some of the weaknesses in the trade by not having all tweener guards in your rotation. With Rudy in the picture, you would now have three tweener guards expecting the bulk of the minutes with Blake picking up whatever was leftover as the only true PG.
I don’t have a problem with the trade talent wise but it seems like an awkward fit. The hope would be that Barbosa’s low BBIQ is overblown and his low assist numbers are more related to the fact that the Suns wanted Nash to have the ball in his hands whenever he was on the court than his inability to set guys up. I would guess that he at least has a good sense of spacing on the court, like James Jones, to shoot the percentage he does from three.
Or if this this deal does happen, it may mean that Roy would begin making a transition to playing the PG position for good instead of just dabbling in it. It is certainly the most compelling deal I have seen discussed this summer.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
More discussion points
Dave says “taking everything into consideration it seems like a coin flip” and most the responses are, “I agree, bad trade idea.” Being a contrarian by nature, I thought I’d add a little more information to the “other” side of that coin flip. This is more in the spirit of conversation and discussion than “WE MUST DO THIS TRADE”
Barbosa the defender:
We all know that D’Antoni does not spend much time emphasizing defense. We also know that Phoenix plays at a pretty fast pace. So, how much of Barbosa’s defensive defiencies are a product of the system? How much of his defensive weaknesses are a product of him guarding SG? The statistical record suggests that Barbosa is not a terdefender, especially when guarding PGs, and would, in fact, be a upgrade over Steve Blake.
When Barbosa played the point, the PG he guarded had the following numbers per 48 minutes:
43.0FG% 4.1FTA 5.9RB 7.2AST 2.0TO 19.1PT 15.7PER
By comparison, the PG Steve Blake guarded had the following numbers:
49.1FG% 3.4FTA 5.4RB 9.0AST 3.0TP 18.5PT 17.4 PER
We know Barbosa is extremely fast and relatively tall for a PG, so how good might his defense be in a system that emphasizes defense more than Phoenix and plays at a slower pace?
Barbosa the distributor:
Barbosa played a significant amount of time next to Steve Nash. Playing next to Nash he’s not going to have a lot of assists and he’s going to look like a shoot-first guard, statistically. When he played the point, however, he averaged 6.0 assists per 48 minutes, compared to Blake’s 8.2 per 40 minutes. Blake was a better distributor, but not by a huge margin. If you are looking for a PG that gets a ton of assists, those probably aren’t the kind of numbers you want to see, but if you think Roy is going to be the primary playmaker in the half-court, then they suggest that Barbosa isn’t just a shot eater.
A final consideration. 33% of Barbosa’s shots were from close range (either when playing the point or SG). This is a much higher percentage than Blake (8%) or Jack (23%) shot. Given that Portland’s reliance on jumpers was a significant weakness, this is an attractive attribute for a player in my book.
Anyhow, just adding some information to the discussion.
References:
http://www.82games.com/0708/07PHO3C.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/07POR1C.HTM
Yeah...
If this deal gets done, it could be the answer to the question of what position Roy will be playing next season. In an interview last summer, Roy mentioned PG was a serious consideration if the Blazers had another 2 guard that could score. Barbosa fits that description for sure and Rudy will most likely fit the description so I would think this deal would put Roy at the PG position with Blake backing him up and Rudy and Barbosa playing the 2 guard spot.
If you like Roy at the point I think the deal makes more sense. If you don’t like Roy at the point, the trade becomes a little riskier because Barbosa has not played the bulk of his minutes at the PG position. No matter what his PER stats are there is always a question if a guy can actually perform at that level when getting those miutes at that position. You would think if he is getting to the hoop more than Jack that he would be getting some kick out action for more assists.
Thanks for the stats to consider.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Well, it's definitely interesting...
According to 82games.com, Phoenix is one point per 48 minutes better on defense when Steve Nash is on the bench. I believe this is another indicator for Barbosa’s defense since I think Barbosa took PG duties when Nash rested. So, Barbosa is a slightly better defender than Nash. Is this good enough? Nash is considered to be a really lousy defender. Plus/minus is pretty noisy though.
According to an estimation of adjusted plus/minus, Barbosa is a bad defender, giving up +5.1 more points than the average player per 48 minutes. By comparison, Steve Nash gives up +3.2 more points than average, Steve Blake gives up +1.0 more points than average, Jarrett Jack gives up +1.1 more points than average, and Sergio Rodriguez gives up +3.6 more points than average. So, Barbosa is the worst defender of the lot. However, adjusted plus/minus is even noisier.
All of these plus/minus breakdowns paint the same story, however. It agrees with the reputation Barbosa his. Chances are he really is not good defender.
As a side note, Phoenix plays approximately 10% faster than Portland. Barbosa’s stats theoretically 10% inflated, both the good and the bad. Therefore, Blake gets roughly 1.5 times as many assists than Barbosa per minute. So, Barbosa’s really only tempting for his scoring.
However, his scoring alone makes this deal tempting. I’d lean towards not pulling the trigger on this.
+/- = -
Plus- Can create his own shot.
Minus- Can’t create shot for others
Plus- .....
Minus- can’t defend.
Is this even a net improvement over Segio? Neither can defend, but at least Sergio is trying to get others involved for easy shots. Barbie seems to be a look at me, I can shoot…a lot.
Ah…exactly how well did PHX do when Nash was down and Barbie was running the point?
by Steve The Hedge on Jun 21, 2008 8:50 AM PDT reply actions
Brazilian National Team
As mentioned earlier, Phoenix has a particular system where defense is often a second thought. At least the lock down type of D that is so popular with Boston and San Antonio. I wonder what LB’s role on the Brazilian National Team is. I did not find a lot of info on the team on the internets and was wondering if his role was much different.
On a separate note. LB brings the type of speed that more often than not can tie up an opposing PG. Simply because he puts that much pressure on an opposing transition D. With guards like Parker, Harris, Paul too name a few making names for themselves having someone with similar speed may end up a priority. The type of front line that we will have in the next ten years will really provide an advantage in that one of our guards can allow penetration. In theory, with Outlaw, Aldridge and Oden on the line the recovery time will really not be that big of an issue. All he really has to do is get out on shooters, and with his speed and Nate riding him I expect he would do that.
Once again, I think to really understand what he would bring we need to look at all the teams LB has played on and if he can/or has adapted his style of play in the past.
Here is the obligitory scouting clip
....errr….I mean YouTube top ten
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD5q9bf48uI&feature=related
Proof that he can dunk>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhaLs53HNNY&feature=related
GO says " Sir, you fornicated vertically…observe the consequences!
Who is going to run the ball down the court for easy baskets?
If we don’t get Barbosa, who is going to get easy transition baskets for us? We do not have one guard that runs the break well and generates easy transition baskets for us. You think Rudy is going to do it? Maybe. But I wouldn’t put all my eggs in that basket. Sergio is good if it’s a 3-on-1, but if the advantage is less than that his lack of ability to finish around the basket makes it easy to guard…ditto for Blake. Jack dribbles the ball of of his foot half the time….ditto for Travis and Martell. Roy doesn’t get the ball down the court quick enough.
We need someone to who push the ball in transition, like a Tony Parker or Chris Paul…and Barbosa is much closer to those guys than anyone we have on our team. If we can get Devon Harris than go for that, but otherwise the Barbosa trade sounds pretty good if you ask me.
BTW
I remember something like 2 or 3 years ago, we could have had Barbosa for a NJ 2nd round draft pick had the Nets not cancelled the Abdur-Rahim trade…
I find the price of Martell + #13 pick even tougher to swallow considering that fact.
IMO, the only deciding factor is Rudy
Look at what Barbosa would give us – outside shooting, slahing, open court fastbreak, a little bit ball handling – isn’t it what we will eventually want to see from Rudy?
I’m not saying Rudy is already better then Barbosa. But if we want Rudy to come here and develop him, it doesn’t make sense to also bring Barbosa here and take away Rudy’s minutes.
Like tssbro said in earlier comment – it’d be a nice deal if we won’t have Rudy. Roy-Blake-Barbosa would have been a pretty solid and versatile 3-guard rotation.
Talent wise it would be an upgrade, but personnel wise it’d just create more problems.
What do you think of Roy at the PG position?
It might be interesting to see Roy and Barbosa start together with Roy at the Point and then see Rudy back up Barbosa and Blake back up Roy. It could make for some fantastic combinations of talent if the egos could fit with the minutes available.
I am not convinced Roy would be best used as a full time PG but Barbosa’s shooting and slashing could provide a big boost to the offense.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
To me, this is a no brainer.
Rudy is an unknown commodity. He may last a season or 2 and then head back to Spain for all we know. With Barbosa, at least you know he is a better than average NBA player…and at the age of 25, he may not have hit his ceiling yet. With Rudy, who knows? Why turn down a sure deal b/c we think somewhere down the line it’s going to stifle Rudy’s playing time. Rudy hasn’t proven anything or earned anything yet. If Rudy comes in and is better than Barbosa than Rudy will get more minutes. That’s how the coaching staff will play it…and I think that’s the smart thing to do.
He's still young but
his stats have declined from last year, so I’m not so sure he’s not reached his ceiling yet…
Too many uncertains
I have seen Barbosa play and have not been overly impressed with his play. I am not convinced this is what the Blazers need. He appears to be a player playing out of control a lot of the time. Whether Portland can corral that and create something better than where he is now I do not know. I also question whether this is the best deal we can get using our #13, Martell Webster, and another consideration. I think my vote would be this is not the best deal. Also, if in five years Barbosa has not learned to play defense he might not have that in him.
Overanalyization
Forget the quality of Barbosa for a moment and delve into what KP might be thinking. Tssbro I think was right on when talking about BRoy at PG.
Most likely KP and Allen had to promise more playing time/starting opportunities to get Rudy over here for low $’s. So that leaves us with Brandon at PG.
The tall shooter in Brandon leaves him to slaughter most PG’s, and open’s up time for Rudy or another SG.
- With Martell gone that leaves us an open SF slot hat Outlaw and Jones (who will most likely re-sign) can fill.
- Barbosa’s “type” is a great 6th man and potential starter. Leaving us a great list rotations including” Roy-Rudy, Roy- Barbosa, Roy-Blake, or even Rudy-Barbosa. Take your pick! ( I left out Jack since I think he will be traded)
-This may be a smokescreen to let people see what we are looking to do, or may even be KP’s “plan D” when come draft day. Assuming we don’t trade and buy our way up to #3 or #7.
I like where KP is going with this, and I think the rumors give us a better insight into where the chips could fall, and what he wants this team to look like. Imagine Brandon at point, Spain’s Jordan at SG, Outlaw, Oden, and LMA… so sweet. Especially with a deep bench to back them up.
"Is Blazermania unique or is it simply good old fan passion translated into a regional dialect and "dialed up to 11"?
by BledBlackandRed on Jun 21, 2008 12:42 PM PDT reply actions
KP
Is probably just throwing the dog a bone and boosting the trade value for Barbosa, whose current employers have treated the Blazers so kindly over the last few years. I say smokescreen all the way.
Joel Freeland=Stud
I think that's exactly right
Nobody knows whether KP wants a straight up PG or a combo to play alongside Brandon…
A lot of posts
with a lot of negativity against Barbosa.
Particular posting the opinion that he can’t defend.
I suggest you reread PoliSam’s comment.
by spencerbutte on Jun 21, 2008 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Then
PoliSam’s post is interetsing, but it’s about stats, and whereas I like stats since I’m kid, you can’t judge a player only by stats, otherwise Randolph looks like one of the best PFs in the league, when he actually s___s…
And even taking stats in consideration, what do we see ? That Barbosa is about the same kind of bad defender as Blake ? If we pay such a price as Webster + #13, I want a top defender in return at PG if the guy can’t distribute…
Problem is...
...if you read my reply to that post, Barbosa is likely a worse defender than Blake. The team defense barely improves when Barbosa replaces Nash at PG, and Nash is by all accounts a bad defender. The lack of difference from opposing PG production could be a result of bad positioning on defense (leading someone else open on a switch or zone) or a necessity for teammates to overhelp for Barbosa.
Barbosa could actually be as good or better than Blake on defense if he came over, but the stats show that it is unlikely.
Doesn't fit our needs at all
I thought there was a fair amount of comment from the team, and consensus among fans/press that the needs were:
1. A PG who could defend. Last year, the better and faster G’s picked us apart.
2. A potential starting SF in case Martell or Outlaw didn’t continue developing.
3. A consistent outside shooter.
I’d add: 4. a rebounding/defending post player.
The only thing Barbosa ads to that is the outside shooting, but he certainly isn’t going to start just for that. If Roy is going to have to take on ball-handling and distribution, we should give Rudy the starting 2 guard spot.
Between the chance that Martell does start living up to his potential, and the potential you get with the 13 pick, this doesn’t make sense to me.
I would say he fits more than just outside shooting.
He is a bit older and more experienced than what we have without being too old for our window. He has been through some post-season battles which cannot be said for any of our core players and youngsters. He is also young enough to not quite be in his prime yet. His athleticism and his desire to be on the court might make him a better defender than he was in Phoenix. Nate will certainly demand more than D’Antoni did. He also doesn’t turn the ball over.
I am not 100% sold but I don’t think Martell and what you would get at 13 is giving up too much even if you have to throw in another player to make it work. He is not going to give you less than what he has done so far and he could blossom in another system that is a bit more under control. He will definitely get some open shots with Oden and LMA drawing some doubles inside. He is five years of consistent production where Martell and 13 are potential that may not pan out. Tough call.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
No, we don't do this trade for Barbosa
Barbosa is a good run and gun player and that is the style that fits with the team phoenix has. Forget Shaq. He slows them down and Barbosa isn’t any good in the half court unless you clear the side for him and he’s got a slower guard guarding him. Oden and LA are going to present a different style, more half-court oriented, a style that doesn’t fit Barbosa. Surely we’ll run more next year but you still run when you can, not when you want to. We need a point guard who can set-up, hit the outside enough to keep defenses honest and guard the other point enough to bother their shot or at least wear them down for the fourth quarter. On next year’s team I just don’t think Barbosa does as good a job as Blake or Jack. I’m as frustrated as anybody else with Jack’s turnovers but if he can cut that down, he’s as good overall as what I think Barbosa would bring to this team. He just doesn’t significantly upgrade us. Whatever he brings is still questionable.
If we were talking about Calderon, it would be a different story. Barbosa is no Calderon.
Do what we have to do to move up to get Westbrook or Augustin but keep Webster.
wow Dave
Master of the CBA and small technicalities. This is a well-researched write-up
Goodbye blue Monday
I got it
KP is boosting the value of Barbosa by starting this rumor. In return, the Suns will let Paul Allen buy another pick this year.
Joel Freeland=Stud
We need a rating system for Dave's posts
I would definitely rec this one. Imagine what Dave can do when he isn’t punch-drunk from lack of sleep.
Most of you are going back and forth about whether Barbosa would be a good fit in Portland, but the point (ha-ha, I’m so punny) in Dave’s post that stood out to me was really Option 3:
“Martell can elect to become a restricted free agent during the summer of 2009-10. That means during the free agent signing period in 2009-10 Martell… will be on the books for somewhere between $9.5 and $11.3 million. If Option 3 is taken the Blazers will actually have less cap space available for signing free agents in the summer of 2009-10 than they would making the Barbosa deal.”
That KP is even considering doing this deal or the Gordon deal means that KP is sticking to his original plan of bringing-in a veteran impact player next year. He is going to make decisions in the next few days that help the team have the most cap space available to sign that impact player. Run all your ideas about what KP is going to do through that filter and you’ll be closer to the truth.
As much as we like the players on this team, do any of us really think that fan favorites like Martell or Travis are untouchable, given that KP knows he has a limited window of time in which to build a long-term championship contender before the team hits the salary cap ceiling? If Martell has to go to ensure KP can sign the free agent he wants next summer, then Martell has to go. I will wish him well and remember him fondly but shed no tears for him. Same with Travis, Jarrett, Sergio, Channing, James, even Steve and Joel if need be. I can learn to like their replacements just as much as I like them, especially if the new guys are getting fitted for rings each summer.
"I don't trust lawyers." --David Stern
always loved barbosa
but Webster is too good a prospect to give up, also if Webster is supposed to be our defensive stopper then we’d have to supplement for that as well for a shaky talent from Pheonix.
"Shaq! Hiiii, you're the greatest of the universe!" -Shaquille O'Neal
by J Jack is beast on Jun 21, 2008 10:59 PM PDT reply actions
Not happening
Thanks for all the info Dave. Thats why I come here. But I don’t see this happening. Webster has too much potential to give up, especially with Jones waivering on coming back or not. You know what you get with Barbosa, but Webster has not reaced his limit.
portlandmenonsports.blogspot.com
by Derek @Portland Men on Sports on Jun 22, 2008 11:28 AM PDT reply actions
Calls Will Flood In
As KP said yesterday, Monday is “moving day”. They finish the tryouts, and then set down for two days and conference it out. He also commented that the trade offers will come flooding in. Due, no doubt, to the fact that he’s salted the market, as have most of these GMS’s A number of exec’s have commented that this could be the most active draft trading action in years. I don’t focus too much or Barbosa or Gordon, for that matter. After all, there are a lot more deals and offers you don’t hear about, than you do. In part because these GM’s don’t want the players to know they’re being shopped – particularly if there’s no deal and the player stays. When KP said “flooding”, that certainly implies a lot more than a couple of offers. I’ll bet not 5% of the “talk i.e. action” has actually floated to the surface. When you hear about a deal, like Barbosa/Webster, you have to wonder who leaked it, and why. After all, what’s the point? It certainly doesn’t make either player feel particularly good. Meaning – someone had an agenda. I also don’t over-react to these “mock” drafts. Right now, they’re all over the map. Everyone has a theory, but no one seems sure of much of anything other than the top 2. Let’s see, we’re predicted to take Rush, McGee, Greene, Gallinari etc. at 13. Even as everyone focus’s on the top 2, then the 5 guards and Alexander, Gallinari and Lopez,, you have a number of teams that talk the smaller players, but who needs centers or PF’s more. Minnesota and NY are two such teams. So, it’s extremely fluid.
I’d like to be the fly on the wall of KP’s office for the next 4 days – but, he’d probably just swat me, so I better stay away.
So, now, it’s in KP’s hands.
BOO!
terrible trade. Barbosa is a fairly better ball handler and better slashing scorer but nothing Martell can’t replicate in time. What’s more we’ve seen Barbosa’s ceiling and haven’t even come close with Martell. Terrible terrible trade. If we’re trading Martell or Outlaw it better be for the #3 or Devin Harris. If it’s not a trade on that level I would rather see how they play for another year then trade for someone who barely gets my interest up on the Suns. Awful trade that I would never do. I would consider it for Outlaw ALONE but even then I would probably not pull the trigger. Again awful AWFUL trade!
He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants
PS
why trade someone we are grooming as a perimter defender for a guy known for his cruddy defense? Utter insanity terrible trade that just changes some problems for other problems I can’t believe people like this trade!
He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants
Mike, over at Barrett's Blog, made this comment:
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
The more I think about this, the less I like it
Mainly because what does getting Barbosa do for us? I don’t know that it does much of anything. I like Barbosa, I think he’s pretty good, probably better than Webster will be, but eh. Does Barbosa get us to the playoffs next season? Or the next? Does he like it here? Does he fit? Will he take shots away from guys we need to develop? Seems like he brings more questions than answers.
Blazer Fan
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Hamed Haddadi goes to the zoo
- David Stern changed the competition committee to push new rules, report says
- Nazr Mohammed films Oklahoma City Thunder fans welcoming the team back at 5:30 in the morning (VIDEO)
- The Orlando Magic finally part ways with both Stan Van Gundy and GM Otis Smith
- Mike D’Antoni breaks silence on New York Knicks exit: ‘An obstacle had to be removed’
