O! How [MJ’s] Worth With Manners May I Sing
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 9:57 AM PDT
Email
PrintSometimes history gets it right. This is seldom the case and often a fluke. Yet the fact remains, not all of history as imagined from the present deserves to be torn down and deconstructed. For whatever reason, sometimes our contemporary impressions collectively judge the past with justice.
The most obvious and classic case of this phenomenon would be William Shakespeare, the playwright who was more or less rescued from the obscurity of his peers by the doting interpretation of Samuel Johnson. Since that time Shakespeare’s reputation has grown to the point that in 4th grade I was convinced I would become a genius if I read his collective works. Whether or not this worked is certainly disputed, but beside the point. Thanks to Johnson today we suffer from an influx of misguided high school drama and English teachers proclaiming Shakespeare as a genuine romantic, as a skilled satirist, as a precursor to Keystone “Komedy,” a political mastermind, and a wily wordsmith. None of them understand in the slightest what makes Shakespeare great (perhaps it would be better to imply that they understand what endears Shakespeare to them), nonetheless they profess his greatness. A clear-cut case in which, for whatever reason, history has made the correct choice in memorializing Shakespeare as a man of genius; the fact that history has no concept of that genius does not affect the justness of its decision.
The trouble is, like any decision imparted with the suspect traces of a unanimous historical approval, Shakespeare’s greatness is frequently assaulted by modern critics. While these critics are most often high school students wishing they didn’t have to read Othello so they could dedicate more time to filming bum fights to gain subscriptions to their Youtube accounts, the simple fact that they challenge historically supported hegemonic approval lends imagined credence to their complaints. In other words, the fact that in Kindergarten we were all lied to about Columbus’ supposed greatness turns every other prominent great man into a racist talentless white male usurper. Chaucer was a rapist. Teddy Roosevelt was a racist. Kennedy was a philanderer. Bill Murray was a drug addict. On and on it goes, sucking Shakespeare unjustly into the whirling dervish of acute postmodern suspicion.
This, my friends, is what I am witnessing in the present day in and around Portland (and especially on BE) in regards to the legacy of Michael Jordan. My fear is that the Sam Bowie draft’s lasting impressions are deeper and more insidious that I ever could have imagined. We need to come to terms with the fact that we passed on Jordan. It’s just a part of what makes us who we are. Don’t ignore the thought of the banners that could be hanging from the Rose Garden ceiling, but embrace the vision of them as an inescapable part of a past that was. There’s no need to manifest the regret associated with that draft by attacking the lasting impression of MJ’s greatness. Jordan is the Shakespeare of basketball; for whatever reason, the popular assertion is correct. Jordan really was that good.
Take the perspective of someone who really seems to have very little perspective at all: the author of the “anti-Jordan page.” Even before the page title, “Reasons NOT to worship MJ,” there is a point of clarification in bright red: “*PLEASE NOTE: I'm NOT denying the fact that MJ's the greatest player.” Even the irrational hatred of the Chicago Bulls, every Bulls fan in the world, and the entire city of Chicago and anyone who’s ever lived there cannot blind this person from coming to the correct conclusion. Now why do we let the Bowie pick cloud our vision?
To close, I want to deal specifically with some of the claims I’ve been dealing with, both with friends here in Portland and on this site specifically:
--Hakeem was the best player in the draft that year. Well, no, he wasn’t.
--Clyde in his prime was as good as Jordan. Unfortunately for me, as a Blazers fan, he wasn’t.
--Kobe today is as good as MJ was. Uh, no, he isn’t.
--Given a set of potential historical circumstances, one or another team could have stolen some of Jordan’s rings. No, they couldn’t
Hopefully that clears everything up. We’re better than sour grapes, Portland. Let’s not be the Dekker of our times. We picked Sam Bowie. We should have picked the greatest player of all time, just like Houston should have. Now let’s move on.
110 comments
|
3 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Wishing we could undo that draft pick doesn't mean we're hung-up on it.
You’ve posted a well-written analysis that addresses a non-existent problem.
You either have a PhD or work for a government think tank.
Please use your intellect and education for a higher purpose: explaining why Laker fans are such weenies.
If you meet the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball.
-- Phil Jackson
I am neither a doctor nor a politician
and perhaps the MJ revisionism doesn’t apply to you, but I wrote this post in direct response to palpable claims made in BE forums denying MJ’s greatness. I will link to them if you need tangible proof.
My point is exactly yours: HOW could anyone deny MJ’s place in history? My answer is merely a hypothesis: sour grapes over the Bowie pick. Alternative ideas are welcome.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, give me a couple of examples, nightbluefruit
from posters who aren’t off-the-wall ranters or just jokin’ around, because I must have missed them.
If you meet the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball. --Phil Jackson
If you meet Greg Oden in the lane, drop the ball and run. --MiledAnimal
Evidence below.
Although I have better evidence coming.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Check out this link for a rough idea
This is a post titled “Road to the NBA Finals: 1992.” You can see me arguing in the comments.
Here is a typical entry:
“I think there have been many posts talking about the historical rewrite of the 84’ draft and how we should of had Jordan, but it seems fallacious to think that Jordan would have reached the same levels in Portland that he did in Chicago. That team was built for him and it took MJ a lot of time to realize that he could not win on his own. There is no guarantee that he gets the same treatment in Portland or we even have the personnel to help Jordan see the importance of a team game to allow him to reach the heights that he did.
I would have much rather had Olajuwon than Jordan anyhow.”
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
No link
Sorry. Right here.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
I said no off-wall ranters or jokers
and you present this rogues gallery as evidence?
tominhawaii: A humor terrorist who would tell you he’s the direct descendent of space aliens if he thought you’d laugh. The real joke is that he wouldn’t be joking. He might be Joakim…
Philthyanimal: He’s my lunatic son. He keeps breaking out of his cage and posting weird stuff. Ignore him.
jonestr: Perfect example why no one should ride a bicycle more than 600 miles per week. He just needs a Gatorade and a nap and he’ll be fine.
TwoDeep: No avatar = no credibility.
Sorry nightbluefruit, you’ll have to do better than that. Get back to that weird D.C. think tank where you and your fellow PhDs throw paper airplanes at each other all day.
If you meet the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball. --Phil Jackson
If you meet Greg Oden in the lane, drop the ball and run. --MiledAnimal
"Think-tank"
A term invented by Aristophanes in The Clouds, in order to satirize Socrates and his disciples.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Now you've done it!
I’m going to have to come up with an avatar. I have this revealing photo of me (but I’m only naked from the waist down) that I’ve been thinking about using.
I suggest a photo of a cat
No one is using that.
If you meet the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball. --Phil Jackson
If you meet Greg Oden in the lane, drop the ball and run. --MiledAnimal
I tried that with my neighbor's cat.
He didn’t take to kindly to my trying to get a shot of that part of his anatomy. (The cat, not the neighbor.)
I’m told the scars will eventually fade.
I agree. I'm sure the cat will recover.
If you meet the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball. --Phil Jackson
If you meet Greg Oden in the lane, drop the ball and run. --MiledAnimal
The Avatar of Jorga's Cat...
...in the Paper (bless you} grocrery bag, must be hidin’ sumtin’?
Big T’s is my guess.
"Always Willing, Ever Able" - rivbike.com
"If you don't want to get banged. Don't go in there" - Van Gundy
That was mine
Anyhow it is not really any use debating this as you seem to parade your opinions as facts. I am not trying to be a jerk or insult you, but I stopped posting on the "Road to the NBA Finals: 1992." post because you just seemed to repeat that Jordan is the best of all time and would have led us to titles and you took these as facts and not the opinions that they really are.
This is a fun topic to discuss but becomes silly rather quickly when you just restate your assumptions without addressing what is a valid argument.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will say right now
that MJ was the greatest B-baller ever and he was the Best player in the 84 draft. I will also say that if I could go back and change things around I would take, not Jordan, but Hakeem (if this were possible). I would do this on the simple premise that Hakeem and Clyde are greater than Jordan (plus whoever we traded Clyde for).
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
Agreed
Plus If Sabonis would have come over sooner that 91 Finals would have been different. Would have Cartwright been able to stop AS?
Sometimes I feel like I'm going in different directions...
I'm with you.
The Bowie – Jordan draft was before I moved to Portland. Rather than think about how many titles the Blazers might have won with Jordan, I wonder what might have been had we had Sabonis earlier.
Hakeem Over Jordan
I agree if we had the choice our team would have won more with Hakeem then Jordan.
Nightbluefruit has some valid points yes Jordan was the greatest, Clyde & Kobe aren’t as good as Jordan. Jordan wouldn’t have got as many rings if he were playing against Trailblazers teams that included Hakeem and Drexler. Hopefully Drexler wouldn’t have felt like he needed to win on his own.
by Garden of ODEN on Jun 2, 2008 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Kobe over Jordan
The verdict is still out on this one honestly. I think if Kobe wins this year, and another championship after that, then any honest basketball fan will have to seriously evaluate it. I don’t think that it’s a no brainer by any sense. Kobe isn’t going to change the game the way Michael did, but to be fair, part of MIchaels appeal wasn’t just his basketball talent. He was a marketing machine, and really the FIRST marketing maching of the NBA or pro sports in general. That is what will always set him apart. As far as basketball playing, I’m in the camp that thinks that Kobe could very well be a better baller than MJ, but he will never be looked upon as affectionately. That being said, it’s pretty well known that MJ is a prick in real life, egotistical, gambler, etc…
Bullocks!
Kobe has skills but no way is he as good as MJ. Firstly on one of those 3 champyummygoodnesscrowns is even legit. Too much NBA shinanigins in western con finals to call they’re subsiquent rings legit. Kobe had Shaq, Shaq had his own set of rules… hey maybe none of those rings is legit.
Can Kobe ball? I ooh and awe all the time watching him. He’s got mad skills but the reason Roy is so great is not just his game, it’s his over all approach to the game that makes his teammates better and gives the team a better chance at winning. MJ had the over all approach too. Besides which statement is more true…?
MJ sucks.
Kobe sucks.
A very nice post
Having just returned from a Bikram yoga class I wanted a little meat in my stew and here was a post so high brow Don Fosbarry couldn’t get over it. And I was ready, ready to argue for the greatness of Shakespeare but you didn’t deny that, then I was ready to fight for MJ’s greatness but this was not put into question. I would say that after years of suffering because of a pick gone wrong I might argue that most of us have finally come to grips with that aspect too. MJ had to retire or play for the Bullets but it happened and I, and I think most of us, have come to grips and moved on. But there is one statement I can sink my sumo-intellectual feet into and that is
—Given a set of potential historical circumstances, one or another team could have stolen some of Jordan’s rings. No, they couldn’t
WRONG! We get Sabonis early, we win many rings. Adelman gets his team to play aggressive, puts in Ainge, we win game six and force a game seven. Anything can happen in game seven. There are lots of things that could have gone different and MY might be a ring or two short and we Portland would have a Champ-yummy-goodness-crown* or two of our own. (to add to 77)
A championship by any other name…
Wrong?
Do you think those things could of happened or it wouldn’t have made any difference?
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
what? oh.
I think if those things, getting sabas/better coaching in game six – happens, it changes everything.
I could be wrong but I shoot from the hip and that’s my current take until someone cons me other wise.
Thanks
I was just confused on what you intended to say is all. Thanks for clarification.
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
A few things
First and foremost, why am I always pegged as an elitist? I will admit I’m certainly not the proletariat rabble-rouser that fatty was, but am I some stuffed-shirt bourgeois commenter dead-bent on patronizing everyone? Probably.
Secondly, if we had gotten Sabonis earlier our team would have been much different. Had we drafted Hakeem our team would have been much different. My point is, either way, we would have been better and won more championships with Jordan than with young Sabonis or Hakeem. Don’t forget how bad Jordan ate Hakeem’s lunch before AND after he took his baseball hiatus
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Hakeem and Clyde
Hakeem and Clyde
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
Jordan and Clyde
JORDAN and Clyde.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Huh
No one has pegged you as an elitist. Do you feal like one? Your post for my taste was a little over prefaced, and thick without the boomshakalaka, but my comments are poorly spelled, and gramaticly tragic, so whare do I get off right. Still I stopped reading about 2 and a half paragraphs in, the ROI wasn’t atractive. but I would argue that you dont deserve an elitists title, unless you want it
What did Oden say to the stork?. "Admit that you have got lost". amlmart
Highbrow = Elitism
Or at least I think of them as related.
I love that people think of reading now as an investment, as if you’re giving up something substantial and expect due compensation. What’s the ROI on your typical TV program, given that it’ll be about 25-30% commercials? I guess the investment isn’t very high, though…
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 3, 2008 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I dont have cable
and only watch the ocational movie. couse 12 hundred per year for distractions that fail to suspend disbelief are about as attractive as reading your post. to quote you “I love that people think of reading now as an investment, as if you’re giving up something substantial and expect due compensation.” You are giving up something important. time. with time you can do things like learn, becoume a more cultured person, self improvement, maybee read sahkespeer. As for ROI, you believed that reading would be an investment, you stated that you thought reading williams works would some how make you a genious. unles your time isn’t tradable, unless there is no value there, “spending” time is an investment.
I wouldn’t say your high brow either, did someone else? I do think you want the label, but don’t think you deserve it.
ps.. i DO like your subtalty-last line, not bad, kinda funny
What did Oden say to the stork?. "Admit that you have got lost". amlmart
G-damn
Even the bad books I’ve read in my life were valuable uses of my time. Reading in general is in my opinion a habit that improves with practice; becoming critical with your reading is something that can be trusted after the experience of reading a ton of good and bad material.
No, I don’t want to be considered high brow and yes, someone did call me that. I guess your valuable time wasn’t worth the investment of looking at the post I was responding to.
And yes, I thought reading Shakespeare would make me a genius, WHEN I WAS 10. Thinking about reading in terms of tangible exchange seems bizarre to me. If you read a 1000 page book and only 100 pages are beautiful, was your investment a poor one? I think not.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 3, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Hay, we agree.. see?
Even the bad books I’ve read in my life were valuable uses of my time. Reading in general is in my opinion a habit that improves with practice; becoming critical with your reading is something that can be trusted after the experience of reading a ton of good and bad material. reading is an investment that draws VARYING yealds. I don’t spend much time with comic books(hows that for subtlety), just my choice.
Your first and 3rd paragraph seem somewhat at odds. on one hand you state that attaching “terms of tangible exchange seems bizarre to me”, yet in the first, proceed to give viable examples. ex. your words “habit that improves with practice; becoming critical with your reading is something that can be trusted after the experience of reading a ton of good and bad material.” not bad, those are decent trades.
I didn’t see anyone call you high brow, but I have noticed you allude to your own greatness? I have also noticed more then a few times, statements of certainty concerning another posters “ridiculous” idias. A good way to not be wrong is to leave room for it.
in hind sight I did throw the first blow, and no amount of justification excuses my entrence into the frey. night, you are obviously inteligent, and I would consider your lyrical dancing with the BLAZERS future, or present, an opprotunity read.
What did Oden say to the stork?. "Admit that you have got lost". amlmart
Dude, seriously,
It’s in the freaking comments, just look! Use your eyes and look!
Having just returned from a Bikram yoga class I wanted a little meat in my stew and here was a post so high brow Don Fosbarry couldn’t get over it.Just use the little scroll bar and scroll.
I’m saying all reading is valuable, period. Even people who read only comic books (and I was among them at one point) are better for it than people who do no reading at all. That’s my point. People who admit to not reading my post and then accuse me of wanting to be considered highbrow and FABRICATING AN EXCUSE TO DO SO tend to draw my ire. Does that make sense?
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are someone who reads regularly and therefore feels no need to read things that do not appeal to him/her. That’s fine. I just already have hangups about people avoiding reading, and then you go ahead and choose to attack me on grounds you are TOO LAZY TO RESEARCH, and to top it all off you do it all with a handful of spelling and grammatical errors thrown in.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 3, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
if we were face to face
would you be yelling right now? lol. I did attack you. I’m sorry. I also originaly only reed the comments, admittadly I dont have perfect retention. i have since googled scroll bar, and called the geek squad for instruction of its use. boy you sure are right. It IS amazing. I have since found the original high brow comment, AND read your post in its entirity. alas, I still kant spel. but you did get one of your assumptions right. I do read quite a bit, just a touch choosy. we really do agree on the reading part and have all along i think.
I do wonder about the fabrication? and lazy. i just think your an agressive poster, and not like frequently aggressive, more like road rage aggressive. Maybee my snapshot of you is to narrow to judge, I hope so. you are smart. and obvoiulely willing to contribute.
What did Oden say to the stork?. "Admit that you have got lost". amlmart
Last post
Thanks for apologizing, I’m sorry I raised my online posting voice.
I meant you accused me of fabricating an excuse to try to get people to tell me I’m highbrow.
As for the lazy: you claimed there was no original “high brow” post twice, which seems to justify its hyperbolic use in this context—certainly not overall or outside the conventions of blog comment posting (whatever those may be).
I like to consider myself passionate and argumentative, which may be the foundation for my belief that I’m not highbrow. And in case you’re curious, yes, I do raise my voice face to face with people all the time. Tends to get me in a lot of trouble, so I should probably change, but one of my better qualities is that I’m stubborn.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 3, 2008 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm with myemic23 and Kobe is better than Jordan
I have always know who MJ was, but I think the first game I really watched hip play, was that game when he pushed over a fellow from the Jazz. I have seen that highlight a million times and many others. I can honestly say that I have seen as many Rudy Fernandez highlights.
I’m not saying MJ wasn’t the greatest. All I’m saying is, that since I’ve been watching the NBA, he’s the guy with lots of highlights, who drafted Kwame Brown, and was on a crappy Wizards team. Since I started watching the NBA, I have witnessed Kobe do way more spectacular things, than I ever saw MJ do on YouTube or for the Wizards. MJ is just some old baller who don’t know what to do. Should he hang onto the past or should he grab onto the new?
MJ is the “when I was your age” guy: “When I was your age, I had to walk two miles uphill, in the snow to school each day, and MJ sure could dunk.” Big deal! I’ve paid to see Kobe play; what has MJ done for me lately? Not dang thing! I am a witness to Kobe’s greatness.
Life is like a cherry tomato; it tastes like chicken.
I hope you're joking
Because a lot of people say the same thing seriously. It comes off as completely indifferent to the past which is not a good thing. Conor Oberst is no Bob Dylan. Jay Z is no Biggie Smalls. John Updike is no James Joyce. Jeff Koons is no Marcel Duchamp. Kobe, my friend, is no MJ.
Bill Simmons said it perfectly in his chat today on ESPN: “I have MJ first now and forever until someone crushes everyone from his generation and wins 6 titles in 8 years again.”
or:
“It’s such an absurd argument [Kobe vs. MJ] that it’s not even worth writing about. Kobe has shown flashes of MJ-dom, and he definitely dipped into those waters in the playoffs, but Jordan played at that level for 10 solid years, and he was doing it during an era when players got pounded and they didn’t have the hand-check rules. I have written this before but I honestly believe that, if the MJ from ‘87 to ‘93 played with the rules in place from ‘05 to ‘08, he would have averaged 45 a game.”
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not for once
Why should I care about a guy I’ve only seen highlights of? Why would I waste my time watching a guy from the Bulls win championships from years past? I am not a Bulls fan.
There are guys with more rings than Jordan. Bill Russel is better than MJ and I don’t think I’ve ever seen Russell play. Jordan does not come close to what Russell accomplished. Jordan is overrated because he’s the flavor of the week. In 10 years, we will all be talking about the next Kobe.
Life is like a cherry tomato; it tastes like chicken.
Nah. We'll be talking about Greg Oden and Bill Russell and comparing them favorably.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
In that case
I find your commentary ridiculous. Anyone who has watched Russell knows he was the ultimate teammate. He was a champion and without a doubt one of the top players of all time.
MJ dominated the game like no one has or will for the foreseeable future. I am not denying Kobe’s greatness but I am asserting with confidence it doesn’t approach Jordan’s. Look again at that Simmons quote because he does a really good job of explaining what MJ did to the league. He really did “crush everyone from his generation and wins 6 titles in 8 years.”
Also, my original argument stands: if we’re not to care about Jordan, why should we care about Dylan, Biggie, Joyce, Duchamp, JFK, MLK Jr., et. al.?
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Good point
But even then, MLK is better than MJ. Comparing MJ to MKL is like comparing Jordan to Kobe.
Life is like a cherry tomato; it tastes like chicken.
Not comparing MJ to MLK Jr.
Just making a point: if we’re going to always forget the past, shouldn’t we forget MLK Jr. and focus on civil rights activists of the present? The answer is, of course not.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I figured it out
Jordan may be the best ever and good for him. I still would rather watch Kobe play than watch some Jordan highlights. I really should not have gotten into a “who’s better” discussion. To me, it is more of a “who’s more appealing,” some old dude, who stuck his tongue out a lot on little YouTube videos, or the greatest player in the game in HD?
Life is like a cherry tomato; it tastes like chicken.
I don't care about several of those guys.
Seriously, Biggie Smalls is someone we should care about why? JFK – his is probably one of the most over hyped presidencies ever. The guy was hardly in office enough to accomplish anything, besides sample MM’s treats. Not sure which Dylan you are referring to. If it’s Bob, well, I like his music, but I he’s just one of so many “cultural icons” that we have to hear about from the entertainment industry (which pretty much includes all of the media these days). I have to admit I don’t know who Duchamp is.
BTW – I thought your original post above was one of the most interesting ones I’ve read in a long time. But that could be due to my liking the bard.
Biggie, (Bob) Dylan
- Both musicians whose skill in their respective genres outweighs (in my opinion) today’s artists.
JFK – introduced policies concerned with global humanism, including the invention of the Peace Corp.
Marcel Duchamp – Arguably no artist had more influence on what we see in art galleries today—for better or worse.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 3, 2008 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Byron Russell
I think that was the poor sap that MJ pushed off of.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
He did push Byron
But Byron did a very nice flop. He would be fined for it next year. I don’t know what Rusell was thinking. They are not going to call that foul on M.J. in the final seconds of a finals. Byron was never the same player again after that.
My favorite teams are the Blazers and any team that is playing the Lakers.
What really sucked was that you then had a two mile
uphill walk back home after school.
What really, really sucked were those July snow storms we had to endure because your sorry ass had to attend summer school every year.
As an aside, I heard it snowed in Hawaii this past year.
Jordan was amazing but...
... yeah. I’d rather have got Hakeem out of that draft.
And I do believe that had we gotten Hakeem or had Sabonis come around sooner that that would have changed the situation completely. That’s fine that you disagree with it and don’t think things would’ve changed, but it doesn’t mean that you are right.
What’s done is done. I could honestly care less about the Bowie pick; that happened almost 25 years ago!
You're wrong
Saying you’d take Hakeem over Jordan is indicative of how much the Bowie pick is still a factor. We’re talking about a top-5 all time center vs. the best player in the world ever. How Blazers fans talk themselves into this logic is completely beyond me. It’s the same kind of thinking that made us pick Bowie.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Hindsight is always 20/20
But yes, I do think everything would have been different. If we had one of the top 10 bigs of all time in either Hakeem or Sabonis, instead of Duckworth, then yes, things would have turned out differently.
I’m not denigrating what Jordan did but if we had Hakeem I truly believe we would’ve been able to smack those Bulls around. We’ll never know though and anything else is just opinion.
I really think the Bowie thing hurt for awhile but as we’re entering what I think will be the greatest era of Blazer basketball ever… I really don’t care.
If we'd had Jordan
I don’t think we would have cared about the Bulls. My point is not that Jordan is better than Hakeem. Hopefully everyone realizes this. My point is that somehow people here at BE keep saying, “I’d take Hakeem over Jordan if I could” as if that were completely logical. Which it isn’t. If we’d have won the flip and gotten #1 we should have picked Jordan. Period. End of discussion. Yet still the soreness of the Bowie pick somehow scrambles people’s brains…
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 3, 2008 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions
I've got to admit, I've gone the opposite way.
When Jordan stood in our way for championships, I did everything I could to try and argue against what he was doing. Now that I don’t have to hate the guy for being our arch-rival, I have been much more appreciative of what it was he did out there. He really was the greatest player there ever has been so far. It just took me a lot of time to get there.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
Maybe
But he gambled and cheated on his wife. ;-P
Life is like a cherry tomato; it tastes like chicken.
Nice Avatar!
It feels kinda wrong to pull Jesus out of the toaster though. There are so many inappropriate theological puns floating around in my head right now….
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
Who hasn't these days?
In just about every town you go into they have a combination casino/mistress service to complement those combination KFC/A&W’s that haunt my dreams
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
I was kidding on that one. I think it’s a rich person’s right to cheat.
Life is like a cherry tomato; it tastes like chicken.
I lost quite a bit of respect for Jordan
when I watched “Space Jam.” Same with Shaq in “Kazaam.” Big name athletes should stay away from acting as a rule. Although Ray was good in “He Got Game.”
That aside, I’m not denying he may have been the greatest player who ever lived. But he was still only human. I for one do not worship him or his Hanes.
"...and that loud noise you hear coming is the Portland Trailblazers." - Charles Barkley
What about Clyde?
Drexler was awesome on that one episode of Married with Children. He even ‘dunked’ the ball once. He was offered a chance to have his own spin off show based on the character he created on Married with Children, but turned it down to focus on basketball.
Kazaam is bad, but I say Steel is worse. Just varying degrees of diarrhea, sure, but one is a lot gookier than the other.
Kobe at his BEST only approaches Late-Era, Jumpshooting Jordan. Not Wizards era of course, still Bulls-Championship era, but when he developed that great turnaround jumper and didn’t have to drive all the time. Kobe came into the league a lot better shooter than Jordan did, but Jordan’s amazing athleticism (much better than Kobe’s) allowed him to get to the rim whenever he wanted and Kobe, while good, could never approach how AMAZING Jordan was until his last few years.
And since most people remember those last few years the most, Kobe kinda resembles THAT Jordan. That’s my theory anyways.
Kobe is good, great, whatever, but Jordan is by far the most dominant player to crush everyone elses dreams that I’ve ever seen. If there was someone before him that was better, I can’t say because I didn’t see it, but I KNOW Kobe is not better than Jordan. That is crazy.
Jordan is a jerk, I didn’t/don’t like him, he seems awful as a front office man, but he was the best basketball player ever.
I’m still allowed to dream of what a Drexler and Healthy 80’s era Sabonis or Drexler and Hakeem team coulda’ done against Jordan’s Bulls… maybe stolen a few championship away before Jordan’s teams could get out of the East? Drexler and Hakeem/Sabonis beats those stupid dumb dirty Pistons, for sure.
I think most Blazer fans have made peace with not drafting Jordan, and instead regret losing that coin flip for Hakeem or Sabonis only coming over once hobbled by Stalin’s secret police. I think we coulda won at least ONE if we had either dude.
Oh well. I like the team we got now and I don’t really worry about all that olde tymey stuff. We won the coin flip with Minnesota this time, to get the lotto combos for the 6th spot. That led to Oden. It’s like on Quantum Leap, and KP went back in time to make wrongs right, and instead of us getting Hakeem he decided to say ‘nuts’ to that noise and got us Oden instead, because there is no Jordan to get in our way.
Mortimer
Married with Children was a great show!
I had no problem with him doing a guest act on a show like that. And the fact he turned down a spin-off opportunity, makes me respect him even more. Of course, he had to blow all that with “Dancing with the Stars,” but who am I to judge? Maybe he needed the money, or was that for a charity? Hmm. Well anyway, I was embarrassed for his sake.
I think the debate of “who is better, Kobe or MJ?” is one that will never be proven to either side’s satisfaction. So, I won’t pick a side. I’ll acknowledge that they’re both two of the greatest players to ever play the game and leave it at that. Quibble not the trivial quandaries.
"...and that loud noise you hear coming is the Portland Trailblazers." - Charles Barkley
"bow to the absurd"
sequine a plagiarized abstraction presurped a former jester privy to narely namesake, ...keen or vapish mortalmer?
If you dont talk to your cats about catnip, who will?
Seriously, WTF?
You’re going to have to be a little less oblique with your tongue-in-cheek commentary.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 2, 2008 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Uninformed Views
I’ve always found it interesting how so many have mindlessly concluded/accepted that MJ was the greatest NBA player ever. I attribute much of that thinking (or lack thereof) to the likes of Marv Albert – who I can’t stomach to this day – as well as to the tendency of fans to overrate and limit their assessments to players of their generation, i.e., ones they’ve actually seen play. The MJ marketing hype someone mentioned above is also a big factor.
When discussing the greatest NBA player ever, it’s beside me how Wilt Chamberlain can be ignored.
“Chamberlain holds numerous official NBA all-time records, setting records in many scoring, rebounding and durability categories. Among others, he is the only player in NBA history to average more than 40 and 50 points in a season or score 100 points in a single NBA game. He also won seven scoring, nine field goal percentage, and eleven rebounding titles, and once even led the league in assists. Although suffering a long string of professional losses, Chamberlain had a successful career, winning two NBA titles, earning four regular-season Most Valuable Player awards, one NBA Finals MVP award, and being selected to 13 All-Star Games and ten All-NBA First and Second teams.”
He holds numerous records, many of which will never be broken. In his first season with the Philadelphia Warriors, Wilt astonished the professional basketball world by averaging an NBA ROOKIE RECORD 37.6 POINTS AND 27.0 REBOUNDS on his way to capturing the NBA MVP AND NBA Rookie of the Year Awards following the 1959-60 season!
The Big O – Oscar Robertson should also be considered:
“Statistically, one need look no further than the numbers Robertson put up in 1961-62, just his second year in the league: 30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds, and 11.4 assists per game-AN AVERAGE OF A TRIPLE-DOUBLE FOR AN ENTIRE SEASON. Not even Magic Johnson or Larry Bird could match those numbers.
During his 14-year NBA career with the Cincinnati Royals and the Milwaukee Bucks, Robertson became the top-scoring guard of all time, amassing 26,710 points. Among all players, only Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Elvin Hayes, Moses Malone and Michael Jordan have scored more. His average of 25.7 points per game is the seventh-highest mark ever, and he averaged 30 points or more in six seasons. Although John Stockton and Magic Johnson have surpassed Robertson’s career record of 9,887 assists, some argue that Robertson’s total came in an era when an assist was credited much less generously than it is today. Robertson also averaged 7.5 rebounds for his career and led his team in rebounding once, a rare feat for a guard.”
Nightblue, did you research or study these guys’ games before dictating to the world that MJ is the greatest and that we should all think likewise?
More controversial, is my opinion that Kobe is every bit as skilled as MJ. I suspect the controversy though will lessen considerably by the time Kobe’s career concludes.
Just sayin …
Not a bad comment for a guy with no avatar
It’s hard to say Jordan was overrated, but your point about each generation thinking the stars of their time are the best-ever is true. It’s impossible to accurately compare stars from different teams, let alone different eras.
Wilt was BY FAR the most talented and awesome player the league has ever seen. It’s not even close. His problem was that he was all about being Wilt and not so much about his teams, which is part of the reason why he has only two rings. Wilt was all about scoring, as we know. It was only when coach Alex Hannum got in Wilt’s face about scoring less and defending more that the Sixers won the title.
If you meet the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball. --Phil Jackson
If you meet Greg Oden in the lane, drop the ball and run. --MiledAnimal
Considering that everybody back then
was like a midget compared to Wilt, those numbers aren’t exactly as impressive as they sound. Also, the pacing was extremely fast back then, resulting to inflated stat lines.
Regardless, Wilt still deserves some recognition. He was a crazy beast, and he’d probably still be if he started his career in this era.
There were many fewer teams back then
therefore the talent was less diluted. Wilt played against other great centers regularly such as Russel and Nate The Great Thurman (ask Luke what he thinks about Nate … he compares Oden to him).
Pacing
How fast was the pacing of the game back then? The average team during Oscar’s triple double season shot 37 fts a game and took more than 107 shots.
Last season the average team shot almost 25 fts a game and took just over 81.5 shots a game.
At a pace like that, LeBron averaging a triple double would seem to be child’s play.
Obviously the current Teams...
...Need to pick up the pace.
What’s holdin’ ‘em back?
"Always Willing, Ever Able" - rivbike.com
"If you don't want to get banged. Don't go in there" - Van Gundy
My opinion
There are 2 things that have caused the game to be played at a slower pace now than back in Oscar’s days:
1) The defensive schemes are much more varied/complex now, so it takes the offense more time to create a good shot.
2) Coaches feel that they need to control every possession so they have the players look at them every possession get the play to run, instead of just playing the game and using the skills that they have worked on in practice (this may also be because NBA teams don’t get all that much practice time together once the season starts).
What is holdin' The NBA back...
...from startin’, at least, a couple weeks earlier.
This just might present a better Game.
"Always Willing, Ever Able" - rivbike.com
"If you don't want to get banged. Don't go in there" - Van Gundy
I did, TwoDeep,
And I stick to my original assertion: MJ absolutely killed every major competitor of his generation, putting him above Wilt and Big O.
Whether or not Wilt was more talented is a hard issue to decide. If pressed, I would have to admit Wilt may have been the better athlete, scorer and rebounder. But he certainly wasn’t the better basketball player. Wilt’s legacy is clouded not only by the hostility between him and the press, but further by the fact he got his lunch ate for nearly a decade by Russell. Not that everyone else didn’t, but still. Big numbers + choke job = Karl Malone, even if those numbers are astronomically high.
Big O is definitely top-5 all-time material, but he was playing at a time when defense was not taken very seriously around the league. Yes, his assist totals are impressive but, as you mentioned, so are John Stockton’s. Put Dumars on Big O and I think he would have still been great, but not as great as the numbers suggest.
I’m sorry—six titles in eight tries with the teammates MJ had is still the greatest individual accomplishment the sport has known by the single greatest player in the sport’s history.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 3, 2008 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions
MJ is not "The Stilt"
Wilt wudda crunched ‘im up and thrown ‘im ina dumpster.
Just Sayin’
"Always Willing, Ever Able" - rivbike.com
"If you don't want to get banged. Don't go in there" - Van Gundy
True,
but with that kind of logic you could make a case for Russell.
BTW, I recommended your Fanpost because of your terrific William Shakespeare discussion which I much enjoyed. Still, I don’t think Bill would even have been a starter in today’s NBA.
My personal biased opinion on the NBA’s greatest, in order:
Wilt
Kobe
MJ
The Big O
I may have placed MJ a notch higher but he couldn’t even hit a minor league curve ball for pete sake.
I was also going to place Rudy at #3 before it dawned on me that he has yet to play in the NBA.
I like it...
...think Bill Russell could play PF, just to get the Stazrin’ Five”?
"Always Willing, Ever Able" - rivbike.com
"If you don't want to get banged. Don't go in there" - Van Gundy
Wilt over MJ is valid
But Kobe over MJ is ridiculous.
As for the Russell vs. MJ faux argument that everyone makes arbitrarily in order to counter MJ’s rings: Egads! Look at the teammates Russell had. I’m not taking away from Russell’s greatness, but seriously.
Top 5 looks like this:
MJ (indisputible)
Wilt
Russell
Big O
Bird
Russell and Wilt are neck and neck. It’s hard for me to compare these players.
Bird is entirely debatable. This is one I chalk up to personal impressions.
William “B-Shakes” Shakespeare is top-15 material, although you are right in asserting his crossover probably wouldn’t have been as effective in today’s NBA. Not to mention that, like Wilt with Russell, Ben Jonson absolutely DOMINATED Shakespeare for the majority of his career
BLZRS FRVR
Here's one aspect to consider
when evaluating players.
They changed the rules of the game because of Chamberlain, and not in his favor.
They created an unwritten set of rules for Jordan, much to his favor.
Arguments on who is the greatest ever, particularly when crossing multiple eras, while fun, are never indispuitable. I might give Jordan the edge, due to his titles. But by that metric, Russell has as much claim to the position. I like Oscar Robertson because he and Elgin Baylor performed at a level that was unprecidented until guys like Magic, Bird and Jordan showed up. Yet they rarely get the credit they deserve. What can you say about Wilt – other than what I mentioned above. They had to change the game because of him. Name another player who has had that impact. As for Kobe Byrant – he has to stand the test of time. We have far too much annointing of greatness these days, with little regard to what went before. Score 40 points in a game and you get tagged as having one of the greatest performances of all time.
I'd admit it was arbitrary
The parenthetical “indisputable” was supposed to be a joke given I had just admitted Wilt was a viable argument, but re-reading my comment it did look like I was being serious.
I think later in MJ’s career the refs did give him more room to operate, but early on he just plain took it. I think everyone should go back and watch Kobe in the 2004 NBA finals to see how difficult a path to the rim MJ faced before the ridiculous “hand-check” emphasis that followed Detroit’s championship.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on Jun 3, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
If I had to pick one player from the all-time greats as the best?
Kareem.
Scoring. Passing. Rebounding. Dribbling. Defense. Size. Strength. Go-to guy. Unstoppable shot. Basketball IQ. Longevity. Durability. Team player. College and pro titles. Impact on the game. MVP. All-Star. Hall of Fame. Coached by John Wooden.
Wilt was a better athlete than anyone else, but if I could choose one Hall of Famer to build a team around, I’d choose Kareem. Wilt wouldn’t even make my top five.
If you meet the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball. --Phil Jackson
If you meet Greg Oden in the lane, drop the ball and run. --MiledAnimal
Rudy is Transcendent
To add Rudy to a top 5 list is an insult to Rudy himself, and suggests that there are 4 other players worthy to share a list with Rudy.
I think not.
There is Rudy Fernandez, and then there is everyone else.
Mortimer
How about you get an avatar?!
Or change your user name to the Invisible Man?
At least smear some zinc oxide on yourself, or wrap yourself in bandages.
If you meet the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball. --Phil Jackson
If you meet Greg Oden in the lane, drop the ball and run. --MiledAnimal
ARGH! Must remember to click REPLY!
If you meet the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball. --Phil Jackson
If you meet Greg Oden in the lane, drop the ball and run. --MiledAnimal
how do you get imiges on your computer to upload as an
avatar. I want k@bes appoligy picture.
What did Oden say to the stork?. "Admit that you have got lost". amlmart
Good question ptwnblzer.
I’m embarrassed to admit I’m awaiting a reply. Embarrassed because I completed a 36 year career in computers. My excuse is that I worked with mainframe computers and not these toys we deal with today. Admittedly they are very powerful toys; much more powerful than the IBM mainframes I worked with (at least in terms of raw processing speeds).
Aww, now I feel bad for you
You just have to save an image into a file on your PC as a JPEG or whatever, then go to your BE My Profile page and browse to the file. I use Paint Shop Pro to capture and save images, but any similar program (PhotoShop, the Paint applet that comes, or used to come, with Windows).
If you meet the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball. --Phil Jackson
If you meet Greg Oden in the lane, drop the ball and run. --MiledAnimal
What I do
If I see a picture I like, and I’m on a PC, I just right click the picture, choose the SAVE PICTURE AS option, then save it to whatever folder I wanna save it to. I don’t even know if you need a program if your ultimate intent is just to make the picture your avatar.
Then like MiledAnimal sez, just go to your profile settings and browse to whatever folder you saved the picture in, and then click on that picture. Update your settings (button is down below), and you’re set.
I remember you had a picture of you running, TwoDeep, that was an example of someone doing their Oden Minutes (Dave put it on the main page). That should be on your computer, right? If so, just go to your Blazers Edge settings, ‘browse’ to where that picture is saved on your computer, and update the settings (if you wanted that particular picture, of course).
If I am misunderstanding, I apologize. I’m not a computer whiz at all.
Mortimer
Thanks to you both, Mortimer
and the Animal. I’ve done quite a bit with pictures on the computer so I shouldn’t have too big a problem setting up an avatar following your directions. Now I just need to figure out two things: one, what IS an avatar anyway and two, which one to choose.
I was in awe of Tom’s dangerous avatar choice when he was using a picture of Kobe. Unfortunately, I think death threats to his family forced him to withdraw it.
I just ate a dozen cherry tomatoes
No death threats. I think people read my stuff and say, “That’s just Tom being Tom.” I thought of changing my name then realized that within a week everyone would know it was just me. I’m thinking about getting a head wound so that it will change my personality.
This monkeys gone to haven
Puleeeze don't do that. "That’s just Tom being Tom." is what we like about you.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
dot com
What did Oden say to the stork?. "Admit that you have got lost". amlmart1
"There is no good reason on Oden’s green Earth for a human to shoot a basketball like that, let alone a NBA player paid to play basketball for people’s enjoyment." Mortimer
It was my off road vehicle.
But at two gallons to the mile, I had to get rid of it recently. It was costing me $50 just to warm it up and back it down the driveway.
BTW
I’m not making fun of Myemic’s signature which he earlier explained. It’s all the posts that prematurely have Rudy anointed to NBA stardom that I’m addressing.
no worries here
My signature is here for all others to use to their desire, making fun is a perfectly acceptable and popular option:)...
RUDY > MJ
You should have a caption contest for your avatar
My early submissions:
- “Tastes great, less filling!”
- “Yow!”
- “I’d say it’s a 2007 Right Guard Sport Stick.”
If you meet the Buddha in the lane, feed him the ball. --Phil Jackson
If you meet Greg Oden in the lane, drop the ball and run. --MiledAnimal
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Roy Hibbert tap-dances to Maine
- Grizzlies Valentine’s Day cards are the key to love
- Kevin Love would like the NBA to take the MLB’s approach on All-Star games
- Kobe Bryant fires a few hilarious salvos at Jeremy Lin
- Brandon Jennings states the obvious regarding his 2014 free agency, everyone goes nuts
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
