Buzzword of the Day
by Dave on Jun 18, 2008 11:40 PM PDT
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PrintListening to some of the national sports talk going over the airwaves today regarding the Celtics' victory over L.A. a couple of recurring themes emerged. One was the sudden falling of Kobe Bryant's star, and to a lesser extent Phil Jackson's. The second was an attempt at a plausible explanation for same. The one-word summary of Boston's dominance: toughness. Coming into the series Los Angeles supposedly had the best player on the court, better athletes, better shooters, and youth on their side. (All of this according to the same national media sources.) The Celtics, as the story goes, stared them down and sent them running back to mama.
While this is probably an over-simplified (and somewhat convenient) explanation, there's also a ring of truth in there. Playoff basketball gets pretty physical. It also messes with your head. Plenty of shiny, happy, skillful squads have sailed into the postseason sporting wonderful records and scoring averages only to have their lunch handed to them by a saltier crew. You can win a series pretty, but you need grit and reckless abandon to win a title. Finesse and polish won't do it alone. If this were poker you'd say that the guys who know the precise amount to bet with a suited connector versus a single-overcard bluff pre-flop are going to be successful, but the guy who bullies the table with his willingness to go all-in will still win the tournament.
I've said it a couple times before, but it bears repeating: this is one of the areas where the Blazers have question marks. Part of that is youth. Sure Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce are inherently tough guys, but a major reason the Celtics as a team were willing to lay it all out there was their collective age and experience. They've seen it all before. They're not putting up with crap anymore. They know if they don't seize this moment there might not be another. The Blazers, by comparison, are going to be wide-eyed does staring at somebody's Mack Truck headlights the first time they get into serious postseason contention. "Look how gracefully we skip and how quickly we... HONK HONK!!! Splat. Wait a minute...they can do that?" But age aside, we also have to face the fact that we just don't have those guys with eye-gouging, crotch-kicking, killer instincts at this point. We have a ton of skill, some athleticism, and even a fair amount of grit. But meanness is something we lack. Even physical powerhouse Greg Oden is unlikely to develop an enforcer personality naturally. The closest guys we have--Jarrett Jack and Joel Przybilla--are also among the guys that we are most likely to part with.
Frankly I'm not sure I see any of our eventual top four or five guys (assuming you'd optimistically include Outlaw and Fernandez in that group) developing into devil-may-care, alpha-male jerkwads (on the court, of course) until late in their careers, if ever. I don't believe this quality can be learned entirely. It's mostly something you have or don't. Even to the extent it can be learned by the time experience sets in enough to push our guys to explore that side of themselves we may have already missed some prime years.
I would expect that somewhere along the line we're going to acquire at least one or two guys that fit that description. Perhaps it will be a hard-nosed point guard, a Jerome Kersey-esque small forward, or even a muscular, thuggish back-up power forward. One way or another we're going to need to bust some chops, and maybe some noses, to get to the promised land. Otherwise we're likely to end up like this year's L*kers...getting to the final table with regularity but not winning near our share of top prizes.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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Yep
I totally agree with you. I just hope that the players that we get or develop in to that role don’t turn into complete jerk off douchebags like Kevin Garnett. I don’t think you have to be that jerkish to be tough and gritty, but there does need to be a little bit of that unknown “if I take it too far this cat will rough me up” going through the opponents head. I like seeing that from Joel, and to a lesser extent Jarrett. However, I believe for us to be a championship caliber team there are only 2 guys that can and should fit this role… ... ... GO and LMA. Once people know those two guys aren’t going to take any guff and refuse to back down, it’s all over for everyone and our path to victory will be cleared. If they don’t, I’m afraid we have a hard row to hoe.
Yah...you don't have to be a jerkwad off the court at all
but you need to have the reputation of being willing to do anything to win on the court. The number one, shining example of this from Blazer history was Buck Williams. He was a gentleman until he put the uniform on, then he would seriously mess you up. Jerome had that reputation too, though his off-court demeanor was less stable than Buck’s. Clyde and Terry were pretty strong for their positions too. And of course Danny Ainge would bite your fool ear off…
—Dave
Using KG
as a litmus test, would you want a player like him? I’m not trying to be argumentative with you, just trying to see where you’re coming from. I think he takes it tttttttttoooooooooooooooooo far on the court to the point of, well, just to the point of me hating him.
I personally don't have a problem with KG
He’s rough around the edges and has gotten into some fights with teammates, but then again who hasn’t wanted to smack Wally Szczerbiak now and then? (Especially when Wally told Kevin to start playing defense. cough!) I watched him from his very early days in Minnesota and the guy has been through a lot and has probably earned the right to voice a few things and get a little angry. I don’t always agree with what he does but then again that’s true of a lot of people in the league.
But let’s assume for the sake of the discussion that KG is really annoying and his behavior is at least borderline inappropriate, if not over the line. If you asked me to choose between having a guy like that and winning championships versus not having him and not winning, I’d sign the guy up in a heartbeat. I’d sign two of him if I had to. He’s not doing anything illegal that breaks the game. He’s a massive talent. Besides, you find when those guys are on your team you start loving them for what they do instead of hating them like the rest of the league does. Case in point, Danny Ainge for us back in the 90’s. For a stretch of time there nobody was hated more among the league’s fans, including Portland’s, than that guy. He was sneaky, underhanded, outspoken, and got under the skin of his opponents like nobody else. Plus (as I said) there was that whole ear-biting scrap with Tree Rollins. But when he became a Blazer those things became major assets. That’s the way it would be with KG too, if we got him and won with him.
However I don’t think that the KG model is the only example of what I’m saying. There are other ways to do it.
—Dave
fair enough
I guess this isn’t any different than me arguing with my mom when she says she would never have wanted Shaq on the Blazers. I say hogwash, if he was a Blazer from day 1 she would have loved him, and the championship rings.
myspace.com/marktwainindians
Ooooh!
Now you got me! I would have HATED Shaq as a Blazer. Or at least I say that. But you’re right…as soon as he got us going in the playoffs I would have been like, “Shaq BABY! Wassup? Me and Shaq are real tight, you know! Forearm bump!” (sigh) It’s horrible when you come face to face with the yucky side of yourself.
Shaq. Ugh.
—Dave
Me too I guess
I know that about myself. Ainge is probably the best example. That being said just because I am as much of a homer as the next guy doesn’t mean that the criticisms to the way he is treated by the refs and what he is actually bringing to the game aren’t valid. My biggest gripe with Shaq has to do with the freethrow thing. He would gripe about the Hack-a-Shaq tactic and call out the manhood of anyone employing it ….but never substantially improved his freethrow shooting. Dude…..if you want that stuff to quit…then go figure out how to hit 65% from the line. I absolutely guarantee that I (45 year old non-athete) could hit 65% (given a month to train). A pro athlete should be able to master this very basic skill if they just take it seriously (look at Joel, Karl Malone).
GO says " Sir, you fornicated vertically…observe the consequences!
by 92wastheyear on Jun 19, 2008 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Growing up in L.A.
I hated Alcindor/Jabbar as a Buck but learned to appreciate him once he became a Laker.
But Shaq never got there for me. Hard to say which way it would’ve gone had be been drafted a Blazer. I probably would’ve like him until he spurned Allen’s money for the lights and glam of L.A.
Free Joel Freeland! (with the purchase of 1 Wafer)
I too don't have a problem with KG.
I think he does a little too much talking, but that, unfortunately, is part of the game these days. As for physical intimidation – these guys are men earning a living in a competitive field requiring physical activitiy. If you can’t handle the intimidation, that is your problem, not the intimidator’s.
for the record
i totallly agree with you. My biggest pet peever of the 07-08 Blazers??? Lack of toughness. They were almost too concerned with “character” to stick up for themselves it seemed at times. Case and point, first game against Boston. God I wish Pryz woulda pulled a Kevin McHale on Garnett if you know what I mean! That would have shut that damn yappy trap of his shut real fast. Oh that would have been awesome.
Actually Dave, Danny Ainge
was the bitten one who was bitten …. not the biter. He was one scrappy sucker though. That’s why Tree Rollins bit him. Danny tackled the much large Rollins because Rollins elbowed him. I loved that Ainge wouldn’t take any crap from anybody.
Yes
I’ve been thinkng the same thing for a while. Part of me thinks Oden will be a bad a** on the court, but he and Joel are the only potential “tough guys” on the roster.
Webster?
if Webster is serious this summer to improve his defence, he should look at Bruce Bowen’s tapes. I do not know how Bruce is off the court, but he sure lets you know that he is tough on the court.
Homework for Martell
Learn how to put your foot in such a place as to break the opposing player’s ankle (literally, not in an And1-way) when he returns to terra firma from a jump shot.
Is this your hope for Webster?
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
One year
and LMA 20 lbs and we will see opponents looking at them like, ” Where did King and Kong come from?” Lamarcus will channel the poor, unsuspecting fools to GO who will promptly swat the ball to one of his team mates. While running down the court, he will politely say to his opponent, ” Sir, you fornicated vertically…observe the consequences!
I'm not worried long term
The only way you can gain experience is to go through experiences. So I think you are correct from the standpoint that there probably is going to be a post-season campaign or two inwhich we fail in order to later succeed. But long term I’m not worried about this teams toughness. I’ve watched this very young team and we respond well to challenges. Remember a season ago, when Lamar Odom charged into The Blazer huddle? LMA did not back down, The Blazers did not back down. Brandon is a razor sharp competitor and seems to bring an on the court mental toughness to the entire team. Oden has a “fun” young kid personality off the court but I think it would be a mistake to think that means he won’t have a killer instinct on the court. By all accounts I’ve heard Oden is a “do anything” to succeed type of person. So sure, this young team will have to probably take some lumps just in a development quest to gain experience but I think we have players that are competitive and plenty tough. IMO the fact that Nate McMillan was able to take a roster featuring two 2nd year starters, and a roster that was one of the youngest in N.B.A. history and get that team to play .500 ball in a very tough division and a immensely talented conference tells me these young pups aren’t overly intimidated by the old dogs. I’m all for always developing and/or obtaining players with a competitive edge to their personalities but long-term I don’t think it is a problem. Sooner or later this team will be tempered by the fire of post season play but I think we have the metal to emerge stronger when that happens.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
by Krang on Jun 19, 2008 6:05 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree to some extent
As I watched a few minutes of fourth quarter finals basketball and witnessed the Lakers struggling against the Celtics defense I imagined the young Blazers in that situation and it wasn’t pretty. But I don’t think it’s a lack of genetic material that will make it ugly for the next few years of the playoffs, I think it’ll be a lack of experience in handling that sort of pressure.
Eventually the guys will grow up and learn to break through. We’ve seen Brandon grow a lot since his first weeks in the game and I believe he’s got the mettle. LMA has shown flashes of toughness as well. It remains to be seen with Oden but I get the sense he’s got enough “stuff” to not back down from anybody. The kids will be all right.
Contrast the Celtics example with the Spurs. Other than Bowen they don’t (at least to me) seem like nasty players, just not afraid. They seem to act like they’ve been there before and with time the Blazers will have been there before. But it’s going to take longer than most PTB fans think.
Free Joel Freeland! (with the purchase of 1 Wafer)
I think there's a HUGE difference . . .
. . . between being one of those “tough” teams (being Boston), and just NOT being
the sort of team that the “tough” teams steamroll easily (NOT being the L[xxx]rs).
For this Blazer team, I see no prospect of them ever becoming the former, nor would I ever wish
for them to be fundamentally altered for the sole purpose of becoming a “tough” team.
But the latter option, a team with the resiliency to not be subjugated by a “tough” team?
I could see that, EASILY, a team that neither shakes nor is easily shaken, and that begins at the top,
with Nate, the assistant coaches (especially Maurice Lucas), and Brandon Roy.
Take the 2006 Heat-Mavs finals: Sure, one can say that Dallas was a team that was easily shaken,
but I don’t think the Heat were a category-1 “tough” team so much as they were just NOY shakable.
And then peel it back to the eastern conference finals, when that Heat team beat a team
that genuinely IS category-1 “tough” (Detroit), and you can see how, if given one team of each type
(“tough”, not shaken by “tough”, and shaken by “tough), the not-shakable one can beat either of the other two.
That way lies hope for this Blazers team, and I don’t think it’ll take much more than a year or three
for them to become that: Not a “tough” team, but not one that is affected by “tough” teams, either.
Blazers have a five-on-three...and they pull it back and wait for help.
by QualityPie on Jun 19, 2008 8:53 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
And I should add breakdown on individual Blazer players.
Which ones have that resiliency to be part of a Blazer team that can be unaffected by the bullies and battlers?
Roy, Oden, Przy, Blake, and (on Euro evidence, but I think it’s there) Rudy.
Which ones seem, to me, to be suspect in their vulnerability to tough opposition – potential Sashas?
JJ, MarWeb, Sergio. This is a big aspect of their potential tradability; those three are mentally suspect.
But they have shown moments of flipping COMPLETELY the other way, like JJ’s standing up to Odom,
and Martell finding some real confident, ice-blood confidence in his game for long stretches this season.
But those are the three guys with a history of getting nervous and intimidated just by their own standing
on a team full of good guys, team ethic, and transparent mutual support.
Which Blazers could go either way?
LMA, Trout, James Jones. And it’s the status of the first two that determines how this team develops.
Trout and LMA seem neither steely like Roy nor suspect like JJ/MarWeb.
They just kinda go out there and do their thang, don’t seem to have any real toughness but they’ve never buckled, either.
They don’t whine at the refs, they don’t get agitated when the opponent goes on a run: That’s a kind of “tough”, I suppose.
If Trout and LMA can keep that up, never show tension or worry when we hit the bigger pressure of playoffs,
their roles will be bigger and the team’s fortunes will be brighter.
But we may yet see, under a brighter spotlight, some as-yet unrevealed Odomness about them.
They are neither proven nor suspect.
Hope they show the steel and unshakability.
Blazers have a five-on-three...and they pull it back and wait for help.
This is a brilliant analysis
I love the three categories team-wise (although the names of the categories are unwieldy ..sp?). I also liked the individual breakdowns. The only thing I would add is that LMA, while in the “either way” camp, seems to be leaning toward the 1st group (the Roy-Oden group). I loved his reaction to Odom last year and this year and it appeared, at least to me, completely instinctual. So that is a good sign, I think.
GO says " Sir, you fornicated vertically…observe the consequences!
by 92wastheyear on Jun 19, 2008 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
JJ suspect in his vulnerability to tough opposition?
No.
His vulnerability is within his own mind and is all about himself… he isn’t worried about opposing players. I don’t think Jack standing up to odom or skinner were “moments” I think that is who he is and to me it’s part of his role. Other players respect Jack for whatever reasons and his teammates seem to like and respect him. That’ s important for a young team so that other teams are more hesitant to try bullying.
I’m still hopeful that Jack will have the opportunity to improve as a Blazer.
Also, comparing any Blazer to Sasha makes me shudder.
Some Adjustments
Oden – I’ve never seen him play in the NBA and that immediately qualifies him for only cat #3, in my book. Seriously.
Pryz – This video changed me. I was all for trading him until I saw this (for real):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=snLY1vk7SlA
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
I would say that poise (clutch performances) and confidence
(the ability to win anywhere, anytime) are equal to or more important than toughness. I think LA lost their confidence and poise in giving up that big come from behind win to Boston, plus all the whining about the refs.
Those, in my mind, are the two biggest reasons they lost.
Blazermania - It's not just for die-hards anymore.
Rough Boys
As I’ve been saying, bring on a healthy dose of Joey Dorsey. At the beginning of the year, I suggested they draft or trade for Landry or Powe, and I heard crickets. Wow, that’s kind of a messed up “I told you so” post. My bad….
Whoa, whoa, whoa...
do you know something we don’t, Senor Davido?
Przy is among the guys we’re most likely to part with?!?
Why? He’s relatively cheap at $6.5M/year for the next 2 years until his player option (which he’d make $7.5M), and he should be an efficient bench player. By then he’ll be 32 and Oden will be up to NBA speed. If he wants to keep his career going and win championships, he can resign with us for fewer dollars, stay in the city he loves, and be a servicable bench big man.
Don’t mess with my dream, Dave!!!
We don't NEED the draft. -Mortimer 6/18
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jun 19, 2008 10:52 AM PDT reply actions
I'm not worried about toughness.
Brandon Roy strikes me as being tough as nails and the sort of competitor who will not back down to anybody. He’s the quiet assassin that will leave you gutted or with a second mouth below your chin and a surprised look on your face.
I can’t speak to Oden, as we haven’t seen him play, but he does not give the impression of someone who will wilt when oppenents start grabbing and slipping in cheap shots. If anything, it will only make him mad and determined to show them that nothing they do is going to stop him.
I don’t expect LaMarcus to become the next Maurice Lucas. However, as coastrider says, add a few more pounds and another year or two of experience and he’s going to be hard to stop offensively. He won’t have to be the “tough guy”. He will only have to have the confidence not to back down or get intimidated. So far, he’s demonstrated that he already has these traits.
Beyond that, Jack, Blake and Joel are guys I don’t worry about. All three can handle themselves or have confidence in their abilities. If we need any further toughness, well, that’s what adding a veteran or two to the bench is for.
Learned toughness
I don’t really agree with the notion that toughness is something players have or don’t until late in their careers. To me, toughness is an attribute of a team more than of certain players, and it will rub off on everyone. Boston for example has 5 players that were on the team last year (24-58) and are still on it this year (chamionship). And most of not all of them were pretty tough this year. What were they last year?
I think players buy into a system, and when the system isn’t working, they become way less willing to put their bodies on the line. When you have a successful program, it’s like a balm. And players play to protect it, and sacrifice in various ways, including this one. Naturally there are those who are naturally tough and those who are naturally soft, but not everyone is one or the other.
The Lakers looked pretty soft in the Finals. But their problem was actually that they didn’t play defense well enough at all, and that their team isn’t really a system, it’s a superstar player, a superstar coach and a bunch of lesser players. The lesser players will not buy in unless Phil and Kobe are leading them. Both Kobe and Phil Jackson utterly failed at that. Doc Rivers did a lot better job at motivating his players when they were down, but part of his job was already done for him by the great team chemistry.
I'd Say..
Our squad is fortunate enough to be able to get to the playoffs early in EVERYONE’S career and take their chances. If they don’t make it, saltiness comes from said dissatisfaction. Either way, we’ve got a core of winners or a core of pissed-off, 6-years-in-the-finals-and-we’re-GOING-to-win-it-this-time types, right?
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
Also..
No way is Oden EVER an enforcer. “Enforcer” by definition is what Maurice Lucas was to Bill Walton, right?
"Well, Travis just showed us that we can go to Travis Outlaw." - Nate McMillan
Pryz will be the enforcer
President of the Petteri Koponen fan club.
by Sabonis4Ever on Jun 20, 2008 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions
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