Who's Available?
One of the popular subjects of summer, both before and after the draft, is the possibility of trades. The Blazer front office has done nothing in the past couple of years to quell that talk either. They’ve proven they’re not shy about making moves if they feel the time is right. Seemingly no time is more ripe for trades than draft day, which will no doubt cause the speculations to reach a fevered pitch in the month to come. In preparation I thought we’d take a look at who’s available…not around the league, mind you, but around this team. How willing would the Blazers be to move a player and why?
At the beginning of the discussion we should affirm that the Blazers are in an enviable position because they don’t have to move any of their guys. This is the single most important thing to remember. For the first time in years there are no truly horrible pieces on the roster when you consider talent and contracts. Well, there are no horrible pieces that we can do anything about, that is. Steve Francis will still be on the books this year for an awe-inspiring $14.7 million. (I’m not sure at this point if that amount is reduced by his
Here’s a list of our players and some speculation under what circumstances they’d be available:
Greg Oden and Brandon Roy: We start with a pairing, as these two are pretty much in the same situation. They’re completely untouchable short of a flat-out crazy offer. Oden is a legit LBJO player. (That’s “Lebron James Only” for the uninitiated.) Anything short of that is going to get a polite refusal.
There’s been speculation about Oden’s knee and its effect on his value or potential for trades. The impact is minimal. He’s a once-in-a-generation center. He’s also very young. He could have a legitimate 15-16 years left in the league. The Blazers would not have drafted him #1 overall if they didn’t believe those had the potential to be championship years and they’re going to take the long-term perspective. They’re also going to weigh relative value. In essence we have a Deal or No Deal situation going here. The million dollar jackpot case is still in play for the Blazers. There’s also a lesser amount possible…maybe $50,000. Nobody’s sure what’s in
Lamarcus Aldridge: Lamarcus is already a very good player in his second year. He could legitimately develop into a great player with a little more bulk and experience. He’ll form a great frontcourt tandem with Oden. Nevertheless, he’s still a shade different than Roy and Oden. Despite the seeming move towards guard-dominated play in the league great big players are always rarer and thus more valuable. Lamarcus is young and has an extremely attractive contract compared to his talent potential. That means he’ll be a hot item in trade offers sent
Travis Outlaw: Travis is another intriguing name. His performance this year was excellent compared to years past, but it was not necessarily anything to write home about for the average 5th year player. A lot depends on whether you think he’ll develop into the unstoppable scorer we’ve seen glimpses of. If he can play his best ball with regularity people will scream for years about how unfair the
An Interlude Here: I am sorry to interrupt the post with a non-sequitur, but I had to put this in the context of another post to avoid it being possibly deleted. Consider it like a secret “Easter Egg” on a DVD.
It has come to my attention that there is a site out there purporting itself to be a source of NBA news and talk that is engaging in reprehensible online behavior. Basically they rip posts from sites like this one and re-post them in their entirety with no links back to the original source. I would consider the fact that they’re plagiarizing our work as a form of flattery except that upon perusing their site I found that they even reprinted posts that are site-specific and have nothing to do with the Blazers or the NBA, such as the FanPost etiquette post the other day. Obviously nobody is even reading the content, they’re just lifting it. The effect is both amusing and horrifying.
If you’re reading this right now, you should know it comes from Blazersedge.com. We have no problem with being cited and discussed…that’s what makes the online world go ‘round. But if you don’t see a prominent link back to Blazersedge in what you’re reading, then the site you’re on has stolen this material. Please understand, we don’t really make money doing this, but the only chances we have to get the occasional ad or to get things like media credentials for the team and the NBA Summer League--things which improve the quality of the coverage you read--lie in our overall hits, visitors, and links from other sites. When a third-party site takes material without credit, not only is it intellectually dishonest, it will eventually reduce our opportunity to do this work in the best manner possible.
In my estimation it will be difficult to get the site in question to stop. They (predictably) don’t even have contact information listed. They don't care. However I don’t think it’s out of line to offer an appeal to you, the reader. We’re all supposed to be concerned about global issues and taking care of our world and each other. This is the online equivalent. I know it doesn’t rise to the level of world hunger or disaster relief, but even small ills are still ills. If you’re reading this on a site that steals its posts, you’re only one click on the “add to bookmarks” menu from reading the same material in a legitimate way that helps and supports our community instead of hurts it. I hope that’s not too much to ask. I would also affirm for all current and prospective readers of Blazersedge.com that when we cite other people’s materials on this site, whether it be the authors on the main page or the readers in the sidebar, we only quote a portion of the piece and we always provide a link to encourage people to read others’ work on their own sites and thus reward them for doing it. Now back to business…
Martell Webster: The one big reason not to trade Martell is the team’s impending need for outside shooting. After a rough sophomore season Webster seemed to stabilize somewhat this year. He is good from distance and likely to become better. Plus you don’t get a ton of shooters who aren’t specialists. Martell has a chance to be more. He faces some of the same questions Travis does: Will he fulfill his potential? Will we have enough minutes for him? Will he develop quickly enough that we feel confident about giving him his next contract? If we think any of the above answers are “no” trades for Martell will likely be entertained. Otherwise he’s about the same as Travis as far as “tradeability”, perhaps with a little less reluctance to part with him.
Joel Przybilla: Joel is an interesting case. He could be, and will be, a good backup center. It’s certain that we’ll need a competent backup center in the coming year. It’s also certain that the headlights for Blazer trades are on high beam, shining way further down the road than just next season. What will Joel’s prospects with the team be in the long run? Certainly the hope is for Oden to play 35-38 minutes per game. Is Joel a viable 10-13 minute option? Does he see himself in that role? Joel’s contract is decent for a competent center…right in the middle of his target zone. It’s hard to imagine him being a throw-in but it’s also hard to imagine a team trading just to get him. He could be a potential piece in a two-for-one deal where we also send one of our youngsters. In the end our plans for Channing Frye may factor as heavily as anything.
Channing Frye: Channing is another one of those bargain pieces that’s neither fish nor fowl. He has talent but he’s not yet a well-rounded player. Then again as 6’10” player with scoring touch making a little over $3 million a year he doesn’t have to be. He’d probably be a great piece as part of a package. We may not have room for him to play here next year either, especially if Joel factors prominently into our pivot plans. It’s a little hard to imagine Channing getting traded just a year after we acquired him but it’s also hard to imagine him becoming a long-term part of the Blazers’ plans. If the right deal came now it would be a go.
Raef LaFrentz: Raef was a completely untradeable piece until now. Nobody would have taken his contract without severe inducements. His expiring salary changes that situation somewhat. Keep in mind, though, that expiring contracts are not what they once were in the league. Cap management has refined to the point that most teams aren’t jumping at extra space the way they were a few years ago. They want a target for that space and a reasonable expectation that they can acquire that target. Nobody wants to be left holding their cap space in their hand or having to fritter it away on mediocre players or re-signed guys. That means Raef would probably only be attractive to a few teams and more likely at the trading deadline than this summer. Raef is the Blazers’ sinecure as far as cap space next summer. But if they feel they can get next summer’s deal now they’ll certainly be willing to move him.
Steve Blake, Jarrett Jack, and Sergio Rodriguez: There’s been a ton of debate surrounding these three, their place on the squad, and their individual pros and cons. From an overarching trade point of view they’re probably all in the same boat though. If we could get a well-rounded, experienced point guard with the talent to lead this team into the next decade we wouldn’t hesitate to trade any of these guys. Whichever of them remained would probably make an adequate backup, if not now then in the future. We like all three but other teams could have their pick of the three if the price was adequate.
James Jones: We don’t know about until he decides whether to exercise the last year of his contract. If he does it’s unlikely he’d be happy about being traded, but then again he wouldn’t have much of a say and we’d part with him if necessary.
Rudy Fernandez: Is not getting traded yet.
Everybody Else: Is cap filler.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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Nice post Dave
But I’m not as quick to assume that the ‘10-’11 lineup, say, will be radically different from ‘07-’08’s as most fans, I guess. As KP pointed out at the beginning of this past season, championship teams tend to have been together for awhile.
I certainly don’t understand the assumption that we “don’t have room” for Channing Frye, Przy, or some of the other current guys. An NBA roster includes 15 players, right? I notice that the teams still left in the playoffs send players-especially bigs-at you in waves. Foul trouble is a constant issue in the playoffs, and injuries occur all season long. You can’t have too many talented players, IMO, as long as they’re not all high-priced.
Sure, it’s probably better if some of those guys are older vets—guys who are happy to be there and not likely to grouse about their minutes or roles. But I can certainly imagine a contending Blazers’ squad two or three years down the road with Travis and Martell both still on the team (one as the starting three, one as the reserve), Blake as back-up point, Jack as back-up combo guard, and Frye & Pryz as the back-up four and five respectively. I’d like to add a Maxiell type to boot: the more the merrier. We certainly won’t need four point guards or a Darius Miles or Raef taking up roster space. Someone is going to fill those slots; why not guys who are already well-liked members of the team & community?
Granted, those guys AS THEY PLAY TODAY might not cut it. But this is the youngest team in the league, and there’s still no telling how these players will grow individually and as a unit. I’m not saying the team won’t change SOMEWHAT over the next couple of seasons. I see flaws that seasoning isn’t likely to cure. Still, last season’s 13-game winning streak should have been an eye-opener for everyone. Add Oden, Rudy, and a couple years of seasoning to the team that put that streak together, and who knows what you might have?
KP is a wheeler-dealer by nature, but he’s on record as wanting to resist the temptation to tamper too much with the current roster until he knows what he has. I predict that those wanting to see a lot of changes next season will be disappointed. Of course, I could be wrong. :-)
P.S. I’ve never watched Deal or No Deal, but I think I caught your drift re/ Oden-and I agree. I’m convinced that GO will have a great rookie season and make everyone forget all the panic of last Fall and the handwringing that’s been going on since. Will he be an instant Shaq? Of course not: he’ll be a raw, 20-year-old rookie. But I believe his knee will be fine and that his defensive presence-alongside LMA-will be an instant game-changer. Factor in his nice hands and passing ability, and he’ll contribute immediately on offense as well. Remember, all Dwight Howard could do was rebound & dunk when he came into the league, yet he still racked up his share of points. GO should do the same-and his presence down low should help his teammates as well.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
by hurryup09 on May 28, 2008 3:35 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
We're not going to have room for Joel and Channing in a couple years
because the total available PF/C minutes in a couple years are going to total 18-20. Not each, combined. Joel may see himself playing out his career with the center portion of those minutes. Channing almost certainly won’t want to do that with the power forward portion. Maybe if you gave Channing all of those minutes he would be happy, but then what do you do with Joel?
From a roster/talent perspective it would be nice to carry all of those bigs. But the chemistry on the team would probably start to rot as people (rightly) felt underutilized. The only way to overcome that would be to pay Channing through the nose with the understanding that his large contract was compensation for him taking a lesser role. But then you’re overpaying for a 10-12 minute a game guy. And then all your other guys playing 10+ minutes want more money too.
—Dave
Oh...but to reassure you somewhat
I’d guess that the great majority of the roster is safe for at least one more year. Unless a great deal comes along we won’t want to mess with our possibilities in the summer of 2009.
—Dave
What about the "keepers" actions?
The guys whose contracts are due to expire after next season: action to avoid having them
go to free agency (or at least keep them from being triple-salary cap holds next off-season)
would have to happen well before next year.
In particular, for those at the end of their rookie contracts AND options (MarWeb, Frye, and JJ, like Chris Paul)
have to be extended by October 31 of this year, or else they’ll be free agents at season’s end.
And at season’s end, they’ll be RFA’s with triple-rookie-salary cap holds UNLESS we renounce their rights,
which would make them UFA’s in the off-season; what’s the deadline for renouncing them?
For players under contracts with team options for next season (some have said Trout is a team option for 2009,
but I doubt this; the certified option dude is Blake), what’s the deadline for picking up the option?
And for impending UFA’s (Jones if he re-ups . . . I guess that’s it, other than the un-re-uppable Raef),
what’s the deadline for throwing HIM a contract extension?
These deadlines are gonna be key observation points.
In particular, watch for Halloween; if any among JJ, Frye and MarWeb aren’t re-upped,
they’re officially Dead Blazers Walking (be it to let go or to trade), and then the renouncement deadline
becomes another watchful date for any unextended players from among those three.
And the option deadline (whenever THAT is) becomes the whole story on Blakey, too.
We do have some decisions to make, or at least pre-2009-offseason actions to take
in support of our 2009-offseason decisions.
Blazers have a five-on-three...and they pull it back and wait for help.
I should add one other deadline: the trade deadline.
This will be late February sometime (date unknown).
This is the deadline for, most importantly, Raef’s expiring contract
(WAY more valuable when it’s down to 2 months rather than a full season,
and after some teams have found out that they’re not gonna be contending this year).
Also an important deadline for any players from among MarWeb/JJ/Frye who were not extended by Halloween,
regardless of when the renouncement deadline is (although the unextended AND unrenounced
are gonna get emphatic trade consideration, since not trading them makes them
triple-rookie-salary cap holds in the off-season).
Blazers have a five-on-three...and they pull it back and wait for help.
Dave...
So you’re saying that in a couple years both Oden and LMA will be averaging 37 to 38 minutes? And neither of them will ever get injured? Maybe you’re right, but I’m not convinced the roster can’t include those two guys plus Frye & Przy—and a “Maxsap” to boot. (I’m sorry, but Trout is no power forward.)
As I said above, the top teams come at you with waves of talented big guys. Przy is strictly a center, but Frye can play center, power forward, and even small forward in certain matchups. Both could pay big dividends even as Oden and LMA hit their stride. And I think there might well be enough minutes and money to make both guys willing to hang in Portland. (The money issue would hinge on whether KP decides to go for a top free agent in ‘09 or stand pat.)
My main question concerning Frye is whether he can continue to become more physical-able to rebound and score in the paint-or if the last month of this past season was a fluke. I’m always suspicious of those late-season explosions/ conversions. (E.g., Theo Ratliff & Darius Miles)
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Maxsap=Frye
He might not play great defense but he also learned to foul people hard this season and once he lost the weight Isiah told him to put on, he blew up at the end of the season (tons of rebounds and scoring). I’d honestly rather keep Frye over Outlaw at this point and I’d be more willing to give him more minutes than Joel. I think LaMarcus is going to come in even stronger next year and I think he will be more than able, on most nights, to play some center while Greg is out with Frye in.
Another thing we can’t forget, despite this season, is that historically Przybilla has been Glass Joe. I love Joel on our team but he is always injured. Frye is good to have in that case and actually very important.
Channing has game and he loves Portland. In three years, when Joel’s contract is up, Frye could be the best big in the NBA coming in off the bench.
Dave is right
Frye, while a cool n’ great guy with rad tendencies, is a young NBA player with contracts and a career on the line. He clearly loves Portland, but just as clear is the fact that he will NEVER, injuries aside, play more than 15 minutes a game with Oden and LMA sucking up all the time. He just isn’t as good as them, nor can he realistically play SF over our current SFs.
So, while it’ll work for another year, can we truly expect Channing to sit back the rest of his PRIME and forgo millions and millions of dollars to be a backup, even on a championship contendor? I wouldn’t expect him too, it wouldn’t be fair.
When we traded for Frye, I said it’ll work out one of two ways: Either he is good but not as good as LMA, so we have to trade him. Or, he isn’t all that great and is only good enough to be a 10 min a night backup, and we’ll want to upgrade for a more ‘real’ PF. I say it’s still the same.
Now, Frye is pretty good. He is young, a great shooter, and appears to work hard. I’d love to keep him on the team. But, it isn’t realistic to expect that to happen because of the real lack of minutes he’ll be able to recieve. Joel will get the backup center minutes, and Frye will get the scraps left over from LMA. Yeah, people get injured, but if we’re hoping that that happens enough to get enough playing time for Frye, we’re in trouble.
Joel is older, less skilled, and will likely always be happy to do what he can for the team and back up Oden for the rest of his career. He is made for that type of role.
Frye could start for many teams, and on another team he’d make a lot more money. He’s a GREAT backup PF for us, but since he can easily start for a lot of teams AND there will never be much time for him here, he’s probably not going to be a Blazer forever.
Luckily for us, he’s got value.
And to be clear, I’d love to keep him for a long time. Him and Joel could be LMA-lite and Oden-lite. Joel has been paid though… Frye won’t be as long as he is a Blazer (without setting a bad precedent).
Mortimer
I hope you're wrong
First, I hope LMA and Oden don’t play 38 minutes a game. I hope they average 30-33 through the regular season. That keeps them fresh, and helps reduce wear and tear/stress injuries. The difference between 32 and 38 minutes a game could mean a career that lasts 3-4 years longer.
We don’t need them to play 38 minutes a game. We don’t have to win 68 games every year. Same with Brandon.
Second, there are injuries and overtime games. If LMA or one of the centers goes down, more minutes for Channing. Even if he only plays 15 minutes a game when everyone’s healthy, you are also paying for an insurance policy. He will average more than 15 minutes a game.
Third, there are blowouts. There will be minutes where he plays more than 15 minutes because he’ll play most of the second half. We’ll have more of these next year.
Fourth, your dichotomy is a false one.
1) “He is good but not as good as LMA, so we have to trade him.”
or
2) “He isn’t all that great and is only good enough to be a 10 min a night backup, and we’ll want to upgrade for a more ‘real’ PF.”
How do you know it isn’t:
3) He is good, but not as good as LMA, and not really good enough to be a big money starter, but good enough to be a really solid backup PF for us. Good enough to be a 15 min a night backup, plus good enough to backup center in the case of short term injuries.
Because, as I look at this last season, I see #3. I don’t see a guy who is going to walk into a starting job for most teams. He could probably start for a few of them. He’s a decent player—perhaps a starter for some teams, a solid back for others. Based on this season, he wouldn’t make $10 million as a free agent, more like maybe $4-5 million.
So if he thinks he could make $4.5 million as a free agent, would he stay in Portland (which he likes) to be on a championship team (which everyone likes) with players he likes, and a playing style he likes, for $4 million a year? Maybe. Does that break the bank or the salary scale? I don’t think so.
Everything you are saying here could be said about Rudy, too. Or Travis/Martell (whichever doesn’t end up our starter). Or any non-starter. Yet teams keep good backups, starter quality backups, all the time.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
I'm basing my thoughts
On the belief that Frye will continue to improve like he showed as the season went along. I think he’s good enough to start for more teams, and only playing less than 20 minutes a night on average shouldn’t be enough for a guy who could play a lot more else where.
The way I think it is different than Martell/Travis/Rudy, is because we KNOW who is playing at our 4 and 5. We got that set for years now, and if we keep playing Travis at PF, then it is even less minutes for Frye.
Martell can play the same minutes as last season, Travis can as well, and Rudy will take a chunk from Jack and Blake. All of them play the right amount of minutes in that scenario. Unless LMA or Oden get hurt, there isn’t many situations where Frye would play the right amount of minutes for a player of his worth.
I know I said it more simply than I should have, but basically, if Frye doesn’t improve much then sure, we can keep him for around Outlaw money. I’m basing my opinion on the idea of him being a young guy who will improve and, like anyone, would want to get paid for his talent level. There is simply no room for him on this team, unless he is fine being underpaid and never having regular steady minutes.
I WANT to keep Frye, and I’d love it if he was okay with that. I just figure competitive athletes aren’t usually okay with this sort of situation. I wouldn’t begrudge Frye at all if he wanted to go somewhere he could play, and thus get paid.
It isn’t like Frye is good enough to HAVE to be a starter, but he’s in that in-between area where he’d start a lot of places, but never would for us, and even further he won’t ever get big minutes (on average).
I am fine paying him whatever, I just figure he won’t be paid for his potential and talent, and will be paid like a backup PF who plays 15-20 minutes a night. That won’t be very much. Especially since we could have Outlaw play next to Joel and Oden and LMA and be perfectly fine with it, it puts Frye in an iffy situation.
He’ll likely win more as a Blazer, but he’ll have a bigger role elsewhere (and thus likely make more money). I don’t know Frye well enough to say what is more important, but I would not blame him to go for a bigger role and more money. There is just no room for advancement on the Blazers, with LMA and Oden (not to mention Outlaw). That situation won’t change for the next decade.
If we can keep him, I say yay.
Mortimer
You may be right
but he’s due for renewal this year, actually.
If they call him in and say they want to extend him, what price could he demand based on what we’ve seen so far? Outlaw-type money, perhaps.
Now, if everybody decides to wait until next year (which may mean renouncing him entirely, or may mean messing up our cap space plan with his cap hold), that gives him another year to make himself more valuable, and expensive.
We’ll see. I won’t be surprised to see him extended this summer for a reasonable price. It would be hard for him to make a case, based on this last year, that he deserves more money than Travis….
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
Short contract
I’d be all for signing him for Trout money, and in his interest he’d like the short length as well. He hasn’t shown enough to get more than that, and for the aforementioned reasons he isn’t vital to the team, but he is a nice piece that we certainly don’t want to lose.
Will Trout-level salary be a pay cut for a recent lottery pick? I know Travis makes less than LMA, Martell, and Oden. Roy too I believe.
I think that’s a fair price for Frye right now, and like you said, we’d rather get a deal done with him over having his contract have a cap hold on us. I keep forgetting that part because I am extremely stupid and ugly.
Mortimer
Yes, well
I’m stupid, ugly, and short. Anything that you can do, I try to do better.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
Stupid sort of ugly things you both can do.
"If OJ Mayo falls to the 2nd round We should risk one of our 3 second round picks on Mayo". Mortimer.
I didn't forget
I thought it was so self-evident it didn’t need mentioned.
Even my comments stink.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
Can someone explain this to me?
I understand how the cap hold works, but I’m not sure why it means we have to extend this summer. The cap hold would be in effect next summer when we are looking at free agents, but couldn’t we re-sign our expired players at that time to eliminate the cap hold, and then sign the outside free agent?
Yes
But we may have to work quickly to do that, because we can’t resign our expired players before the signing period opens. So while we’re negotiating with our cap-hold players, other teams are negotiating with the free agent we want.
Obviously, we can negotiate concurrently, but it gets tricky. We reach an agreement with Chris Paul, and he says, “Let’s sign it,” and we say, “Um, well, uh, we have this problem we’ll resolve in the next two weeks.” He says, “Um, well, uh, what if I’m in a car accident? I’ll go sign with someone who is ready.”
Not that we’ll get Chris Paul (we won’t unless he falls in love with our courtside reporter and she refuses to leave Portland). Just to illustrate.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
You can pay Frye without setting a bad precedent
If Joel is getting paid what he is getting paid there is no problem paying Channing at least that much money. I think he’d be happy to make Joel money and winning rings in a great city.
Again, Przybilla is Glass Joe. He’s great backing up Greg when he is healthy, but thats counting on a lot. We should pay Frye Przybila money and in three years when Joel’s contract is up he’ll be the best big in the league coming off the bench and we can draft a young guy to train and eventually become a backup for Greg and replace Joel. We can do whatever we want with that guys minutes.
Championship teams usually have a lot more than just two good bigs, however great they are, to throw at you.
Yeah
That could work.
My biggest problem is, I like Martell at SF much more than Travis. I like Travis at PF, especially next to a rebounder/bruizer like Joel Pryzbilla. I think both are better and more valuable than Frye. Since we want to play both Travis and Martell 25-30 minutes a night, it eats away Frye’s minutes unless Frye is playing center like last season.
And I think, while we all love Frye, him as a backup center doesn’t really work… especially next to Outlaw.
Further complicating it, Frye should be great next to Pryzbilla in the 2nd unit. But with Outlaw at PF, will he get a chance to show how good he fits? Will Outlaw become a real SF, freeing the backup PF spot to Frye?
Frye didn’t get very many minutes last season, with Oden out. With Oden coming in, Glass Joel takes up all the backup minutes (barring injury). When Frye did play, he backed up LMA and Joel, often playing alongside Outlaw and sometimes Joel. With Oden coming in, it pushes Frye down even further down the rotation, doesn’t it?
See, some think Outlaw and Martell won’t be able to co-exist longterm on the team (not on a personal level, but a playing time, whats-their-role level), but as long as Travis plays PF they can co-exist beautifully. I don’t see Outlaw as a starter, but a terrific 6th man, and I see Martell as the starting SF, so I don’t have them compete for minutes in my head (except in the 4th quarter, perhaps). I see Outlaw and Frye in much more direct competition, because of how successful Outlaw has been as a PF and how many of his problems defensively and rebounding will be fixed by Joel or Oden being there next to him instead of Frye.
Frye would be more traditional as a backup PF, but in a 6th man scoring role, Outlaw excels with the mismatches.
I don’t mind paying Frye as much or a little less than what Joel makes, and that’s the best he’d get from somewhere else unless he has a great season this next year. BUT, is 7 million for a 5th string big man (behind LMA, Oden, Joel, Travis) wise, long term? WILL Frye be okay being the 5th big man, the Raef role, so to speak? I really don’t know…
I know in the long run the Blazers will be deep into the luxury tax, and as it is not my money I am fine with it. I know we can afford it. But, we gotta go deep into the tax with the right pieces, and while I am sure about 3-5 guys, plus Joel, I am not sure if the rest are the best we can do.
Locking up Frye for the MLE type cash, but then sitting him on the bench, gives us a nice insurance policy but also gives us someone we can’t move because he doesn’t get a chance to show what he can do and his deal is bigger than what his play deserves (possibly through no fault of his own—there just ain’t the minutes).
Like I said, I like Frye, I wanna keep him. I just question the existence of minutes for him now that Oden is back since he didn’t play much last year with no Oden, and thus I question Frye’s willingness to be a bench warmer when he is talented enough to be more.
Mortimer
This makes some sense
We’ve got a forward glut.
I have always liked a platoon system. Five fresh guys off the bench late in the first quarter, or to start the second quarter. A unit that has chemistry and has learned to play together, makes sure that everyone on the first unit gets a rest, hopefully with a distinctly different style from your starters to make it harder for the other team to respond.
If Travis is our backup PF, then Jones can be our SF on our second unit. But Travis can also play some 3, to make sure he gets his minutes.
To have an effective platoon, you have to have a couple of decent players who can live on 10-12 minutes a game. Then, you have to have a couple of starter quality, or near starter quality, players to make the unit really good, and who can back up more than one position in the fourth quarter.
Travis is that kind of player, starter quality or nearly so, who can back up either forward. As long as Travis is on our team and not the SF starter, he is likely to cut into Channing’s PF minutes. As long as Martell is on our team and demanding significant SF minutes, there is a shortage of minutes for Channing to play. As long as Joel is on our team and taking all (or virtually all) the backup C minutes, there’s no place for Channing to get his minutes.
For Channing to protect his place, he has to A) take minutes from Joel at backup C or B) be a better backup PF next to Joel than Travis is or C) raise his game to such a level that we have to get him minutes at Martell’s expense or D) we have to trade one of our other frontcourt minute grabbers.
I agree that there’s a huge minutes crunch at forward. I posted a definitive trade analysis diary (back when they were diaries) that argued exactly that, and that there is likely to be a trade involving one of our forwards. I hope it isn’t Channing. I also hope it isn’t LMA, Martell, Travis, or James.
I think we should petition the league to increase quarters to 15 minutes. We’ve got plenty of depth to handle that easily, and if the rest of the GMs were as good as KP, they would, too.
I expect Nate to call timeout when the game is tied and we have the last shot, and draw up horrible plays, just so the game will go into overtime, and we can get everyone a few extra minutes.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
What if Portland cast a new mold ...
... rather than trying to fit old ones?
We are, after all, the youngest team in the league. We apparently are in the enviable position of having a roster full of young talent. Why not utilize that to create a new model. Approach the game similar to how hockey teams play. Send out a second unit “en mass”. The second unit could average 15 – 18 minutes a game. That’s a fairly reasonable amount.
The two arguments against that come to mind are;
a) you limit the minutes of your best players
and
b) it’s not exactly conduceive to playing the match up game.
My counter-arguments would be
a) what you may give up in productivity from your starters, you get back in keeping them fresher.
and
b) make the other guy have to worry about matching up to you
Joel, Travis, Channing and Rudy (plus whomever is our backup PG) potentially represent a unit that’s equal to half of the starting units in the league right now. I can see it now, Nate runs the first unit against the second in practice and, on occasion, when they outplay the first unit, he even let’s them start a game. (The minutes don’t necessarily change, but they do get the start.)
If we want two units in competition
we can play with two different styles, so:
A) (2007-20087 style)
Roy/Blake
Webster/Roy
Jones/Webster
LMA
Pryz
B) (“Run-run-run” style)
Sergio/JJ
Rudy/JJ
Outlaw
Frye/Outlaw
Oden
Nate could show his players if a team can or can not win running.
"If OJ Mayo falls to the 2nd round We should risk one of our 3 second round picks on Mayo". Mortimer.
What if one guy is really hot?
Do you still take him out?
by tominhawaii on May 29, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Nope
Jack Ramsay did this. Don’t you guys remember your Blazer history?
We had a second team platoon system, largely. Late in the first quarter, or at the start of the second quarter, we would see the entire second unit on the floor.
If a second unit guy was really hot, he might stay in the whole second quarter, but in general, after 6-8 minutes, the starters would come back. Second half rotation was not as fixed, and driven in part by who was hot.
It meant the second unit had chemistry, and they all had an important role. They all knew they were going to be in the game at a time where they could have an important influence on the outcome. Even if they didn’t see any second half time, they knew the next day they would have an important role to play again, and a chance to show that they could contribute, and not just in garbage time.
With the kind of depth we have, I hope we do something like this. I would like to see our number 6-10 guys get 7-8 first half minutes every single game, and 5-12 second half minutes, depending on situations, matchups, fouls, and simply who is hot.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
by jscot on May 30, 2008 1:36 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is why you're Master of the Universe.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
Do you think he rides a tiger?
I think I have a man crush on Bobby Flay.
by tominhawaii on May 31, 2008 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't trade "our" guys
Last season was something to remember. I remember watching the youngest team in the NBA, and third youngest in NBA history, win more games than the 1st and 2nd youngest teams in NBA history combined. I love our guys, and I would be disappointed if certain players were to be traded. I know Pritchy-Pritch loves to make some flamboyant draft day trades, and so far he has been as close to flawless as I have ever seen from a GM in the NBA. But this year I would love to see him take a backseat and let this team grow a little. I wouldn’t object to a small trade, like the one we saw before the trade deadline, but please KP don’t trade away anyone who the Blazers have drafted.
I have a strange desire. Well actually I have quite a few, but the desire that applies to the Blazers is that I would like to see our championship team have a starting five of draft picks that were made by the Blazers. I can’t think of another team who has won a championship with a starting five of players drafted by their organization. This intrigues me.
Imagine the Blazers win a championship. It’s eaaasy if you try. Now imagine the five best (or 7) players played every NBA game in a Blazers uniform. For whatever reason I would feel even closer to a team that only knew their homecourt as the Rose Garden, grew up and matured in Portland, and were common faces around town.
I really don’t want to see Travis, Martel, Sergio, Jack, and obviously the other three get traded. I want to watch them grow up. I want to watch them become champions.
So please KP don’t trade “our” guys.
In regards to Francis,
My understanding is that the Blazers can ‘set off’ $956,442 in 2008-09, meaning they save that much off of Francis’ salary.
Regarding the Interlude ...
I used to work for AP and would often Google around and see what far-flung newspapers picked my stories up. (Any AP subscriber can use the material, but the writer usually has no idea until kind soul sends a clip from the Bangkok Post or whatever.)
I noticed about 20 mid-west “papers” were printing my stories everyday on their websites, which struck me as odd because I was covering Caribbean news at the time. checking into it, all the websites were very similar and I found no other links to them, links to proper advertisers, reader feedback or office addresses. They were bots set up to rob AP content and collect a few pennies from Google or whoever.
Last I heard, the AP legal bigboys were leaning on them. Even with some high-power lawyers, however, I’m not sure how to really stop such bots. Little easter eggs, although out of the question for AP-type news, may be Blazersedge’s best move.
Glad you spotted it, and equally glad I didn’t use my legal name when posting here! (the current boss might not like it much)
-Y5k
NY, NY
RipCity's a state of mind
It usually is a hidden feature of some kind
in software. I am guessing it may be something doesn’t allow cutting and pasting….or…something else altogether
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 29, 2008 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions
In this context
An easter egg would be something like what Dave did here—including text in the article that says “hey, if you are reading this on another size bsides bedge.com, it’s stollen!’
Ah...very good
because these are being stolen automatically, that part of the text wouldn’t be removed manually
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 29, 2008 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions
This is a similar article to my fanpost The Untouchables
Except you go into a little more detail
Whats your ring size? 2010
by Gregory Roy Aldridge on May 28, 2008 6:53 AM PDT reply actions
Apologies
I always credit fanposts when I elaborate on their ideas. In this case I hadn’t seen your fanpost first. Sorry for the unintentional rip-off.
—Dave
No problem
You went into much further detail then i had though. I like urs more
Whats your ring size? 2010
by Gregory Roy Aldridge on May 28, 2008 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: RLEC
I think Raef actually has considerable trade value-maybe even moreso than in years past-for the simple reason that LBJ and DW will soon be testing the free agent market. There are oodles of teams who will want to try to get far enough below the salary cap to make a run at those guys. Not that we necessarily want any players from those teams—just sayin’ that expiring contracts the size of Raef’s will be a hot item in the next 2 years.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
For DW, don't we want to try and be one of those guys?
If only for the sole purpose of locking up Utah’s salary cap for years to come? Or for the less-than-zero percent chance that they let him go rather than pay that much money?
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
Meant Dwyane Wade.
I can see how that can lead to some confusion.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
Yeah, we'd be a year late on that one.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
As I look at the roster
I see a logjam in regards to the backups on the frontline – Outlaw, Frye and Przybilla. I don’t see enough playing time for all three, which opens the door for a trade of at least one in my mind. If, for example, Outlaw and Przybilla can man the majority of the backup time behind Webster, LMA and Oden, then that leaves Frye as trade bait.
True.
And I don’t like log jams as they can adversely affect morale. But this would be alleviated if Travis starts at the 3 as Nate has hinted. But I’m sure that’s up in the air yet which has to be making KP’s job more difficult.
An early line caught my eye:
“Anything we do should be clearly to our advantage.”
And I guess that’s why I really don’t see any trade happening:
No team would make a deal with us that’s clearly misbalanced in our favor.
The only acceptable trade that could happen is one where we clearly get the better of the deal,
but the other team doesn’t know that at all.
I know, I know – we already did that to Boston two years ago, the L[xxx]rs just did it to Memphis, it happens.
But! – I insist that it can’t be looked forward to.
That sort of robbery can’t be anticipated or hypothesized from the outside fanbase.
And that sort of robbery is the only deal Pritchard would do with this roster.
Blazers have a five-on-three...and they pull it back and wait for help.
by QualityPie on May 28, 2008 9:15 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
And I'm not so sure Boston got jobbed in that trade, anyway.
They turned Raef into Ratliff – similar contract, but expiring earlier.
If they had Raef’s expiring-in-2009 contract instead of Ratliff’s expiring-in-2008 contract,
they could not have swung the KG deal; that weas dependent on a huge expiring contract.
They gave up the Brandon Roy pick, sure, but they gained the 2008 flexibility to deal for a franchise player.
That was the real gain for them, and they DID make the most of it.
Roy or KG? That’s not such a stupid choice, now, is it?
Blazers have a five-on-three...and they pull it back and wait for help.
by QualityPie on May 28, 2008 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is complete speculation
but as much as I like LMA, there may be some attractive offers out there for him.
I was thinking of the rumor of the #1 from Chicago for LMA. Maybe far-fetched, but let’s look at it.
Here’s the depth chart if they kept LMA. Bold is guys with 24+ minutes per game.
PG: Roy, Westbrook?, Blake
SG: Fernandez, Webster
SF: Outlaw, Jones
PF: Aldridge, Frye
C: Oden, Przy
Not enough PT for Przy and a weak bench.
But then again, look at this depth chart if they did that move:
PG: Rose, Blake
SG: Roy, Fernandez
SF: Jones, Webster
PF: Outlaw, Frye
C: Oden, Przy
If Rose ended up being a near all-star quality point guard, then that would be a potent combination—three potential all-stars, and two solid role players in the starting lineup, with Fernandez, Frye, and Przy providing punch off of the bench. The frontcourt would still be deep, but the roster would be more balanced.
So maybe it’s not so far off as we might think at first….
Exactly
I think that even if you have to add a bit of gravy it’s a beautiful trade in terms of roster consolidation. I also really like the Frye/Outlaw front line. I think with Frye’s rebounding and outside shooting you get an LMA-lite effect with the mismatch creating Outlaw as your 6th man. I also think Rose has that assassin look in his eye that I WANT on this team. I love LMA and will gladly see him hoist the trophy with Roy and Oden but DAAAAMN that second lineup looks freaking beefy.
He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants
Second lineup would not start Jones and Outlaw!
Webster is the starter between him and Jones and I still think Outlaw never starts here.
Trade groups
1. Webster, Outlaw, Frye, Pryzbilla
One of these guys is gone for sure. Frye might be the most likely, but it will depend on what deals we can find. The issue is that with Oden coming in, there aren’t enough minutes at the 3-5 spots. I don’t think Webster will ever play 2 on the same team as Roy and Rudy. So for the forward/center spots there are 144 minutes available, and Oden/Aldridge will take maybe 65 of those, leaving 79 minutues to split between these four guys, or about 20 minutes each. That could work, but it would make more sense to split it three ways at 26 each. Also, we maybe have other players that will take a few minutes like Roy or Rudy at the 3 sometimes, or Jones if we keep him. Any combination of 3 of the four players above could work, but having all four of them is wasting too much talent on the bench.
2. Blake, Jack, Sergio
One of these guys will also be traded. If we get a good new point guard, which I think is likely, we may lose two of them. Again, there is a big minute crunch in the guard positions with the addition of Rudy. It doesn’t make sense to have five or six guards that caliber, so at least one should go.
3. Jones, Raef, McRoberts
Any or all of the guys could stay or go, depending on what deals we find.
4. Roy, Oden
Not going anywhere for anything.
5. Aldridge, Rudy
Probably the same as group 4, but some small possibility for movement.
So I think we will trade at least two players, one from group 1 and one from group 2. That makes sense since we are adding at least 2 players in Oden and Rudy. Since we kind of need to make some trades, we might as well try to get something good for them. I think that will mean a new point guard, either a veteran or a draft pick. To make that work, we’ll also be willing to include a third guy from group 1 or 2, any guys a team wants from group 3, and of course our draft pick.
I'm guessing from your name
that you might be Spanish so I understand the home-team X2 effect of being a Spanish Blazer fan. That said I really REALLY wish people here would temper their expectations of Rudy. I’m hoping that he is 1/10th as good as people on this site think he will be. Seriously, anyone hoping for Manu Ginobli redux is in for a rude awakening this fall. Manu is now cut out of wood and has a snake like ability to penetrate.
I just see Rudy getting hurt if he takes it to the hole frequently next year. Roy has fists like small hams for his size and he got hammered repeatedly. Rudy has fists like cornish game hen by comparison. I mean if Rudy works out ALL SUMMER LONG on weight gaining and strength building exercises he might be a huge impact player. Otherwise he will be a fun guy off the bench who is shut down by the second half of the season once opponents learn that you lock him down at the 3 point line. He might do well in the open court but I think it will be years before he is an impact player on this team. Here's hoping I'm wrong but I've REALLY tempered my expectations around Rudy and I think my fellow fans will be less disappointed if they do the same. Give the guy at least 2 years...
He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants
Man this format is driving me bonkers
Ok so basically Rudy = Skinny = getting hurt if he takes it to the hole. He needs to bulk up CONSIDERABLY or else he will be a shooter and nothing more. I don’t expect an impact from him until at LEAST his 2nd year. Even GO will take a ways into the season to have an impact and he is a freak of nature. Give Rudy 2 – 3 years otherwise people will be calling for his head by the end of the season cause he is a “bust”. Temper your expectations let Rudy’s game come to him and you!
He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants
I'll make a deal with you
I’ll quit dreaming of Rudy being great if you quit dreaming of Rose as a Blazer.
I think that gray box happens with a *. If you want blockquotes, you have to use the ” symbol in the formatting da kine.
think Allen Iverson
That’s the one guy that Rudy reminds me of even more than Ginobili. He’s tiny but he takes it to the hole with abandon and is a gunner to boot. I’m not saying he is as good as Iverson, or ever will be, but he has that reckless tiny guy fearlessness.
It's a smokescreen to keep people off my tail
I’m actually just a plain old Portlander. I didn’t mean to imply that I think Rudy is as good as Aldridge, just that I think he’s about as unlikely to be traded this summer.
Thanks Dave
I think everyone knows my feeling on making any moves this year. I know one is coming and I expect it to happen after next year or at the trade deadline. If anything happens this year, it will just be a tweak to clear up some playing time at point guard.
As for Frye and Przybilla, (Blake too) I have a feeling they would be willing to sacrifice playing time for a ring or rings. I know it’s just a feeling and people will not agree with it. All three guys have been in way worse situations and know they have it good in Portland. If Nate and KP are doing their job, then they will sit down with those guys, and tell them their roles and expectations. (They actually should sit down with everyone.) If they are willing to accept their roles, then I do not see a need to move them. If they cannot accept their roles then they will need to be moved.
The big 3, and just about everyone but Frye, have had to deal with injuries, that made them miss quite a few games. There are 82 games in the season and then all those seven game series in the playoffs. The Blazers need as many able bodies as they can get and, like I said, if guys are willing to accept their roles and step up when needed, then they should be allowed an opportunity to stay. I’ll leave the compensation part to KP.
LOL!
That’s hilarious, as Henry drives a ton of our traffic spikes. He’s the one guy in the universe besides Casey Holdahl that I wouldn’t mind stealing my stuff.
—Dave
And I stole this link from Henry
It is a great look at point guards and what type is needed to thrive
http://ballhype.com/story/ballad_for_the_combo_guard/
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 28, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
You’re adding two plus the draft. Given minutes, that tends to indicate that at least two people getting fairly good minutes last year, won’t be getting them next. However, if we’re going to start swapping rookies for existing players, then they’d better be good. Oden certainly fits that role. And, if the front line were Oden, Frye, Aldridge and Pryz, then I think that could work. But that dictates that Aldridge and Oden play in the 30-32 minute range. Then Frye and Pryz get enough touches to feel good about their play. But you can’t throw Outlaw back to PF – of someone won’t be playing much. So, the hint is he’ll play more at SF – whatever the knock is on him at that spot. And that implies that Webster and Outlaw will split the time, perhaps 26/22 or whatever. At guard, Fernandez is young, but the brass seem to like him. And, he won’t come here and drop $2 million to play 5-8 minutes, so you can bet he’s gotten the assurances necessary to have confidence he’ll get minutes. In fact, he has no reason to leave where he is unless he thinks – and the Blazers think – that at some point, he’ll be a big piece of the puzzle. And that leaves us with Roy, Blake, Jack, Fernandez and Sergio at guard.. And last year, Sergio, the #4 guard, ended up with less than 10 minutes – and he wasn’t happy with that. So one of these is certainly gone, and it’s hard to see Jack happy with 8- 10 minutes. But, maybe they can sort it out. In any case, none of this accounts for the rookie. Now, if they actually find a player, it’s going to create a jam somewhere. Let’s face it. If a guard, then the current #4 will also be gone. If a SF, that doesn’t work with Webster/Outlaw.
Tricky issues. KP could get a good draft going – but don’t expect him not to swap a few players out to create time for the players he’s bringing in. Otherwise, he’ll simple trade the pick into next year and wait. After all, we’ve already got two rookies.
So, my question is – do we really need three rookies this year?
I'm not going to worry about logjams or minutes
It’s a great problem to have.
I’d like to keep everyone’s minutes pretty equal next year. We have a two deep (plus) team at every position. Everyone should be happy next year.
Now the year after that if things stay roughly the same, then there could be some problems but I think the reason we don’t need to worry is because won’t that work itself out? Say, whoever, is unhappy with his playing time and wants out, well KP gets on the phone with those teams that love him and he works up a deal. Bye bye, selfish traitor scum.
How do you keep everyone's minutes equal next year...
when you are adding three new good players? You can’t. That’s why we need a trade, unless you want to demote some guys.
Not exactly equal
If I were couch, and I should be, I would get all my guys in the game most of the time. Oden can have as many minutes as he wants and needs but can rest a bit when he’s dinged. Oden should not be playing full minutes next year anyway based on rookie status and just say out a whole years status. Another reason the Thrilla is so valuable next year. We can have starters play less minutes next year as we have a full sexy bench and then we can have fresher legs with less injury when playoffs start. Only the Lake less ones can oppose us then.
by Blazersaurus on May 29, 2008 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions
you said "If I were couch, and I should be....." . hehe
I almost did that typo earlier…..but yours is very funny. The post is good though
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 29, 2008 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Look upon it
PG. Blake…..........................Jack…............................Sergio…...................Westbrook?..........
SG. Roy….............................Rudy…............................................................................................
C. Oden…..........................Prizbilla….....................LaFrenz…................................................
SF. Webster….....................Outlaw….......................Jones…....................................................
PF. Aldridge….....................Frye…..............................................................................................
Kaponan, Freeland, McBob, Von Wafer, and three 2nd Round picks fighting for the 15th roster spot and a place on IR.

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