Making Me Nervous
by Dave on May 27, 2008 12:01 AM PDT
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We had some great comments in the Russell Westbrook thread over the weekend. Thank you all! I think as names come forward and options become clearer we’ll run threads for most of the major contenders as well as the “Trade the Pick!” position.
Although I’m not much closer to being settled on who I’d like to see the Blazers get, after a bunch of consideration over the weekend I’ve come to the conclusion that there are two guys I don’t want to see us go after because, frankly, they scare me. Fortunately both are forecast to go above our pick--in one case well above--so it probably won’t be an issue. But I thought I’d share anyway. Keep in mind that I’m admitting up front that these are more right-brained impressions than solid analysis. Maybe you can convince me to change my outlook.
The first guy I wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole at this point is Kevin Love. Sorry, I know he’s local, but he’s the kind of guy who often disappears after making the jump to the NBA. His biggest drawback is that he’s un-athletic compared to the guys he’ll be competing against. I’m well aware that some guys come in to the league overweight and learn what it takes, becoming effective players. Weight is one of the classic trouble signals but it can be overcome. But this isn’t a case of an otherwise superb athlete hiding under a few too many Bloomin’ Onions ™. If you look at Love compared to most prospective and current NBA forwards--the angle of his shoulders, the way he moves, his torso--it’s like he’s a garage sale couch in a
The second guy I really worry about was brought up in a fanpost last week: O.J. Mayo. There’s no doubt this guy has talent. But there’s plenty of smoke starting to congeal around that fire. Again we have attitude questions. We’re starting to get into legality issues as far as illegal payments and such. When guys start generating those kinds of stories you really have to look hard. You’d be naïve to believe they’re going to disappear once the money and stage both get bigger. Plus a couple years ago this guy was shaping up to create one of those whirlwind drafts we talked about last week. He was going to be the lock-down no-brainer pick, the once-in-a-generation talent at point. It didn’t take very long for that storm to subside. It’s not like he’s chump change now, but you really have to be careful about guys who were going to be all-universe but turn out to run with the pack. There’s a reason (maybe there are multiple reasons) why that didn’t pan out. It’s awfully easy to get caught up in potential and name value and gloss over those reasons. You see a lot more of these fading stars continue to fade than you see turn it around and fulfill the greatness people once thought they had.
The NBA is a lot like marriage in this sense: whatever problems or difficulties you bring in are going to get magnified. Just becoming a professional doesn’t solve them. It doesn’t even really open up avenues to get them solved. Nobody’s going to hold your hand in the league. Coaches and team administrators are going to demand you perform and are going to have relatively little sympathy if you don’t. Fellow players are going to want the minutes you get and will be more than willing to take your spot should you stumble. Most people you meet off the court are going to want a piece of you, either simply as a fan or for more nefarious purpo$e$. That’s a lot of responsibility on your shoulders. You have to be at a physical, mental, and emotional peak to handle it. Some guys’ peaks are barely a speed bump and that almost always spells trouble.
I don’t know enough about Love or Mayo to say for sure whether they’re able to handle the league, but I do know it worries me. It’ll be interesting to see where, and by whom, they are picked and how that turns out.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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Interesting
I agree, mostly. The new revelations, to me, ended the case for Mayo as a guy we want. Too many character problems.
But if a talent like Mayo is still available at #13, you have to take him. Play him for a year and then include him with our cap space next year in a sign and trade for Paul or Williams, or something like that.
I would cringe at trading up for him. I would gladly trade up for him if we could then trade him to NJ for Harris.
Love? Well, there have been guys like him before. Was Kurt Rambis athletic? I’m getting old and don’t remember very well, but I don’t think he was. I think Love could be a decent role player for a good team. If we end up trading Channing in a deal for a PG, Travis remains our backup PF, but if we also trade one of our SFs so that Travis spends all his time there, I think Love could be our backup PF. I accept all your reservations about Love, but there’s a lot to like. Great passers are always valuable. Great outlet passers create easy baskets, and easy baskets help win playoff games, when half-court defenses really get tight.
Do I want Love? Not really. I Love Channing. But if Channing is traded, I would be cautiously content with Love backing up LMA.
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
Mayo is going to be a better player than Harris IMO
He is going to be just as good a defender, if not better, he’s a better shooter, has at least as good a slashing game and I think he has just as much playmaking potential.
If KP decides he is a go, I’ll be happy. I think he will be firmly entrenched in fourth enchilada status out here but will be fine with it cause he’ll be on a dynasty winning championships. Blazers won’t tolerate any funny business.
Most likely worst case is he is great trade bait a couple of years down the road.
Yeah...
I can’t see Mayo being okay with being a fourth enchilada even if we are winning championships. Many edgers have compared his mentality to Kobe Bryant. Kobe couldn’t even handle being a second enchilada. Plus, he is saying all the right things as far as “whatever is good for the team and winning,” but when it comes down to it, he has never been anything but the head honcho. I am not sure that can change.
by The Graduate on May 27, 2008 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey!
Future dictator of the world, good to see you again. Where you been?
by BlazersOrBust on May 27, 2008 4:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I had a work situation that came up suddenly
Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo
Actually, that was my fault.
I was so convincing in arguing that we would win the #1 pick that Jscot “invested” all his world-ruling resources accordingly. All I can say about that is “my bad.”
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
Kurt Rambis
was actually pretty athletic…at least not schlumpy. He just wasn’t anybody’s idea of explosive.
I agree that if Mayo were somehow available at #13 we’d have to take him, reservations or no. There would have to be some kind of disaster workout or character-wise for that to happen. My reservations are more in general, with him as a high pick or with the Blazers trading up for him.
These are also the things I’m most likely to be dead wrong about though.
—Dave
Yup
He wasn’t explosive, but he put 100% out there every night and was athletic enough to be a key piece of the Magic-era Lakers dynasty (no, I’m not going to put an * in there – just get over it already). I wish more players these days had his work ethic.
by DonkeyShins on May 27, 2008 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Do not forget to go down the Home page and watch
the photos of Dave´s Baby Point Guard. He´s like a little King David who will threat your power.
It never rains for everibody´s pleasure.
I also share your concern about those guys
Love may be an early bloomer; thanks to his ex-NBA dad, he developed solid fundamentals at an early age. That made him shine against college competition, but in the NBA he’ll encounter guys just as sound fundamentally and much more talented. The Blazers indeed will need a banger off the bench, but I don’t know if you want to spend a lottery pick on him. (E.g, Maxiell, Millsap, Big Baby, Dorsey, even Boozer went much lower.) And I’d like for our banger to be more athletic than Love.
As for Mayo, this latest set of revelations seems like the last straw. Sure, he’s probably an OK guy. But the Blazers’ chemistry is very special, and chemistry is a fragile thing. Why take a chance?
P.S. Typo alert, Dave: “Nobody’s going to hold YOU hand.”
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Undersized, unathletic and uncoachable?
Gimmie a 20ft poll instead!
but as far as Mayo goes…
I don’t think the attitude problems are as serious as they are made out to be. The hype surrounding Mayo goes both ways. Any slip up on his part is going to be discovered and blown out of proportion. I’m not saying that these issues have no merit, I’m just saying take everything you hear about Mayo with a grain of salt. Also, I read the Ford article on ESPN about Mayo and his character problems; it flat out shoots down the notion that Mayo is a bad guy.
Dave does make an interesting point about Mayo being all universe early on and then just top 3 now. I think this is another case of the hype machine confusing everyone. No one could have lived up to that image. However, would we be trading up because of the hype or because we know what the actual Mayo will contribute? I wouldn’t call Mayo a fading star, though. He played better at the end of the year, which is part of the reason he draft stock went back up. He only faded from the ridiculous hype.
I think the real question is whether it’s smart to ship out a bunch of players and potentially take on some bad contracts to get Mayo. Would we trade up to acquire Durant if he were in this draft? That’s a bit unfair considering we know how much Durant struggled most of the year. That being said, what’s the minimum production we would want out of Mayo if we got him and do we give him a year or two to hit that stat line?
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
-T.S. Eliot
All good points re: Mayo
Especially the one about how he’s not a fading star. Especially after LeBron came in and starting destroying the NBA immediately, the spotlight got cranked up even brighter on Mayo. If you take all the overwrought hype out of the equation and just examine what Mayo’s done on its own merits, to me he’s still one of the top talents in the draft.
That’s an interesting question about trading up for Mayo and taking on bad contracts. I wouldn’t want to do it, just because he’s still an unknown commodity and we have too many of those next year as it is. We don’t know how much (or, perish the thought, how little) of a monster Greg is gonna be. We don’t know if Rudy is gonna come in and torch other teams’ second units as a Ginobli-lite off the bench. We don’t know if Martell is gonna take that next step forward. It’s one thing to make a move for an established NBA PG like Harris, Calderon, Miller, or Hinrich because then at least you’re trading for an established commodity.
I don't think it would be worth it to move significant pieces to go get Mayo, just because we're going to have too many moving parts next year as it is and we simply don't know where he fits in to the equation. Where does he play? In the starting lineup alongside Roy? Might not be a great fit for somebody who needs the ball in his hands, like Roy, to be effective. Fighting for minutes behind Blake and Roy with Rudy? If we're gonna have to move up to the top 5, what's the sense of playing Mayo spot minutes on the second unit? I just don't like it. If we're moving up in the draft, I'd rather move up less and go get Westbrook. I think that leaves roles much more clearly defined and the cost-benefit ratio scares me less.by BlazersOrBust on May 27, 2008 4:48 AM PDT up reply actions
can. we. PLEASE.
get rid of these G.D. block quotes? I have never once seen anybody actually use them for block quote purposes. I have, however, seen any number of people get their posts screwed up because of them, and it’s like the third time I’ve done it so I’m starting to get irked.
by BlazersOrBust on May 27, 2008 4:51 AM PDT up reply actions
hmmm
can. we. PLEASE. get rid of these G.D. block quotes? I have never once seen anybody actually use them for block quote purposes. I have, however, seen any number of people get their posts screwed up because of them, and it’s like the third time I’ve done it so I’m starting to get irked.
What problem
Joel Freeland=Stud
Oh sure
rub it in. :) I’m not trying to blockquote ever. I’m not that smart at html stuff. When I hit return to start a new paragraph, sometimes my text gets all cut off and sometimes it doesn’t. What the heck am I doing differently each time?
by BlazersOrBust on May 27, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry
It was too good to pass up. I just use the button by the editing options that appear when I go to post a comment. I use Safari and that might be the difference.
(blockquote) Quote (/blockquote)
But of course replace the parentheses with the carrot ones.
Joel Freeland=Stud
What I was trying to say
I don’t think it would be worth it to move significant pieces to go get Mayo, just because we’re going to have so many question marks already, and I really don’t think you want to throw a ton of change at a young team. Where does he play? Alongside Roy in the starting lineup? Might not be the best fit considering that he’s a guy, just like Brandon, who plays best with the ball in his hands. On the bench fighting for minutes with Rudy behind Blake and Roy? What’s the point of moving substantial assets to get into the top 5 just to play Mayo spot minutes off the bench? If we’re going to move up in the draft to select our PG of the future, I’d rather see us make a move for Westbrook. We’d have to give up less and I’d feel more comfortable with the roles being left more clearly defined following that pick.
by BlazersOrBust on May 27, 2008 4:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Absolutely with you...
While Mayo is talented, I think the roles on this team might be all out of wack. And I am certainly not saying Mayo is a bad guy, but I just can’t seeing playing third or fourth fiddle in the long run on the team.
by The Graduate on May 27, 2008 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Defense, points and not turning the ball over too much.
I’d imagine if we got him that he would back up Blake for at least a year.
That’d be a heckuva rookie guard combo off the bench! Mayo and Rudy! Two guys who would be top 5 this year?! Coming off the bench?! Awesome.
Of course that would only be this year, and maybe not even the whole year.
Sergio could be Steve Nashified all of a sudden too. Okay, probably not that one.
by BlazerD on May 27, 2008 3:17 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Love screams COLLEGE PLAYER
From the highest rooftops. He IS what college fans love: a slow white guy who boxes out. That’s all NCAA fans look for, and every year one of these guys gets drafted too high to show that the NBA isn’t the same, because they didn’t learn it the first 100 times.
He’s got the instincts to rebound, and will likely be a decent rebounder. I just question his ability to do more than just pass well and hit the open outside shot. If you’re picking mid to late 1st round, you take a flyer on him. In the lottery? I dunno… his lack of athleticism and size and whiteness usually points to glorified role player.
If he truly is full of himself like they say, and isn’t very coachable, then there’s no chance he’ll be a Blazer.
Mayo’s rep comes with red flags all over, and even if none of it is really true (or simply overblown), I doubt KP would take a flyer on him just because most Portland fans just aren’t ready for someone who even has the APPEARANCE of bad character, even if he’s a perfect angel on the court. Not yet.
HOWEVER, fans would get over it if KP decided that Mayo is truly a gentleman of distinction, and just needs a new home with 3 square meals a day and a yard to play in.
Lucky for us, I expect the problems to be moot because both players should be gone by then. If Mayo falls to #13, I guess you draft him to see what you see, but if Love falls to #13 that means he tested and interviewed horribly with every single team and the negative buzz is true.
Another guy I’m scared of is DeAndre Jordan. I totally see someone like Minnesota or the Old Seattle (before Presti) GMs taking a chance on him because of his ‘upside’ and big time athleticism, but raw and lack of work ethic are the worst combinations in the world. They are in the Stromile Swift/Hakim Warrick sweepstakes if the rumors that he has been promised a top 5 pick are true (though they could be agent created rumors—though it was true with Sheldon Williams a few years back, however unlikely it seemed then and now).
Eric Gordon looks so much like a Garbage Pail Kid, it is making me question who truly created the Universe. I got a strong feeling he’ll be one of my least favorite type of player: the undersized SG who only knows how to shoot shoot shoot, ala Ben Gordon, Juan Dixon, Jamal Crawford, etc.
Batum scares me a lil’ too, as being an athletic black dude in Euro-leagues will always make you look more athletic than everyone around you, and because he reportedly hasn’t improved much at all and doesn’t have that fire to prove himself and improve his game (not based on anything I’ve seen, only read). Late 1st round, sure, buy that pick and let him grow in Europe. #13? Well, if KP does it then it is a smart move.
And really, that’s what it boils down to with whoever we pick. No matter what my preconcieved notions of Love, Mayo, Gordon, Jordan, Batum, whoever, if KP picks them then they must be the right player and I got full faith in KP’s work ethic and scouting analysis, and the people surrounding KP to break each player down.
They got this.
Mortimer
So Morty
are you riding the Westbrook train to Choo-Choo-Championship land? Do you prefer for us to trade the pick? Or is it more, “here’s the guys I don’t want, don’t really know the guy I do want, in KP we trust?
by BlazersOrBust on May 27, 2008 4:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Ya know what?
I got no idea which I favor yet… ok, actually, I am not sure if I think that I think I know what we should do. I don’t know who we could trade the pick-plus-player for that’ll help us (Devin Harris? Can’t do Calderon or Hinrich because of RFA status or BYC status), and I am not completely in love with anyone who will be available for us at #13. In fact, I’m not 100% in love with ANYONE in this draft and my gut says it is kinda overrated—decent draft, but not worth killing yourself over to get into it, unlike last year.
Now, in these situations, that’s when someone gets drafted late lottery and becomes the best player in the draft. Maybe that is Westbrook. Maybe Mayo slips and he puts his past behind him and is a bigger-sweeter-shooting Dwyane Wade. Maybe this guy or that guy is the bees knees in the future… I really cannot say honestly and I have no dark horse favorites this year.
But, because I feel like this is a great possibility, I favor keeping the pick unless someone like Devin Harris is available for a decent price. I am fine getting even younger for now, because we are still gelling as a team and aren’t ready for our championship push. If we pass over someone who could be one of the best players in the draft just because we don’t wanna get younger, it’ll be a mistake in 3 years when we are REALLY contending for the championship. By then this year’s rookie will be a seasoned young vet and ready to explode, and will only make our team stronger.
So, I’m totally fine getting a rookie, even more so than just an average to above average vet who will help us win a few more games this next season. I think we make the playoffs without another vet at ANY position, as Blake can continue to hold down the fort at PG and I think Martell will have a leap year next season—and even if he remains the same except more experienced, he’s still good for the starting SF spot. We could upgrade either, but not for free, and I like what we got. Plus, I am very much in the corner of seeing how EVERYONE plays with the Big 3, which we obviously haven’t been able to see yet.
Perhaps playing with Oden brings out another side of Jack or Blake we never knew existed. Maybe Rudy CAN play the PG with Roy at SG, and this quest for a PG is just like last year’s quest for a SF. We have so many young guys who are already good to pretty good to great, and staying pat will allow us to really see what we got before we trade them to improve right away.
Say, we move the #13 for Shane Battier, who is to say that in 3 years that #13 pick (or Webster, or Outlaw) aren’t far and away the better player? We’ll do better next season, but not much after that. I only wanna get older/more experienced for the right guys, which sounds vague but basically means I wanna see what we got.
Since I am not sure who I’d wanna draft, I am falling back on “In KP I trust”. Some say he won’t draft a PG because we don’t want a young guy at that spot, but I say with Blake starting we can afford an athletic, young, raw PG playing back-up back-up and learning the ropes from Roy and Blake. In 3 years, maybe that PG (Westbrook?) is a better version of Rajon Rondo and we’re set for the next decade at every position (I can’t think of ANY team in my lifetime that had everyone at the same general age who played together for 5-8 years, let alone 10… but we got a chance to do just that, and really make it work).
Long story short: draft an American with potential to play behind our current starters and role players, and no major trades. Unless Devin Harris is available.
Use or buy later picks to stash more Euros overseas. They are fun.
Mortimer
Good post Kevi- Morty
About Hinrich,
We could still get him with only giving up RLEC, Jack and #13. His BYC is up July 1st which means we can trade for his 10 mil salary after that. With RLEC and Jack and the #13 we would be at 16 and a half mil. All we would need back from Chicago is about 3.2 mil to match the 125% +100 grand rule. Either they send us both Thebo S. and Cedric Simmmons or we get a third team involved. I’ve done enough research to feel about 90% sure of all this, but I could still be off. Let me know what you think of the rules and the trade.
One Question
Am I the only one who thinks it is bad, if Hinrich is the highest paid player on the roster? It’s Raef now, but that’s because he will be purged, and it not part of the future.
Five
In another scenario, sure
But since all of our key guys are on their rookie deal, and they HAVE to know Paul Allen will definitely pay them when they are due for their second contract, I doubt they’d feel much jealousy towards Hinrich, or dwell on how he makes more than them.
Otherwise, they’d curse Raef’s good fortune all day.
Hinrich would be the highest paid rotation guy until it is time to re-sign Roy and LMA, so it won’t be for long. As long as everyone is clear that their turn to get paid will come, I just don’t see it being an issue.
If, for example, our owner tried to undercut or underpay one of the Big 3, then yeah, there’ll be problems. I see Paul Allen paying the max and loving every time he writes a check to our Big Three, because they’ll be worth it.
Mortimer
Oh
I don’t think we would have to worry about the players making a fuss. I was just saying that in general the highest paid player on your team, shouldn’t be fourth, maybe fifth, most important guy on the team.
Five
I see what you mean
Still, once Oden/Roy/LMA get into their second deal, then Hinrich WILL be the 4th most paid player on the team, and that could realistically be his value on the court as well.
Provided he bounces back from last year, of course.
Mortimer
Hinrich's overpaid anyway you slice it.
Is he 2.5 times as good as Blake? No way, but he’s getting paid like it.
So yeah, I’d rather him not be the highest paid player on the team. Neither now nor later.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
Couldn't agree more
I’m lukewarm to the max (interestingly, “lukewarm to the max” kinda means really close to the center! Not towards either the max or the min at all. Moving away from topics that interest only me…) on the Mopey Iowan. Last I checked the “I hate Kirk Hinrich and am counting the days till he’s shipped outta town” thread or whatever the exact name is on BlogABull was at 260 comments and counting. Like I said earlier today to ignacio about Duhon, if the majority of a team’s diehard fans hate a player and really want to see him gone, it’s kinda a red flag for me.
Bulls management complained all year about a lack of leadership on the court. Captain Kirk is a three-years-and-running captain. This does not imbue me with great faith in his intangibles. I know that Roy is our undisputed leader anyway, but I’d still prefer not to trade for a guy whose job description as a team captain and a PG basically begins with “court leadership” and flopped miserably in that department. Also, Hinrich went into the tank, and we’re talking diving headfirst here, after signing a substantial contract extension. When (contract extension) + (1st season after signing extension) = disaster, that’s kinda another red flag for me.
I think Hinrich is a mild upgrade over what we have now and ranks about sixth on my list of ideal PG moves for the Blazers to make this off-season.
by BlazersOrBust on May 27, 2008 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
It does raise the ceiling on what we'll be willing to pay
which will then make us more prone to hitting and exceeding the cap. Just because we have the money, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be smart about it. If we snag kirk, then we’re setting a “this level of talent is worth this much” market and all the better players should OBVIOUSLY be making more.
I’m not for or against, but it’s something we need to be aware of when we make choices like that. Stating we want to be financially wise and then acquiring a fourth best player DOES set the standard at the bargaining table.
"I got the goose bumps." - Rudy translated by Alamart
I believe you are totally correct
You are 100% correct (I think), after July 1st Hinrich is tradeable in the normal fashion, where you just gotta match salaries straight up. I was just meaning Calderon and Hinrich aren’t available to be traded for on Draft Day, so unless we’re getting Harris, we’re drafting SOMEONE over getting our new veteran PG.
And unless someone comes with a sweeter deal, I do think that is enough to get Hinrich. Now the tough question is, which Hinrich are we getting? I think they only way to really know the answer is to know Kirk Hinrich, something even most Bulls’ fans couldn’t know, and to really understand WHAT caused that poor season. If it was temporary injuries, that’s fixable. If it was the attitude of the team and the approach of the coach, well, that’s not too good coming from the Team Captain, but we wouldn’t have him in that role as long as Roy still draws in breath. Would Hinrich thrive in a non-leadership 4th banana role, playing off of Roy?
Normally, a kid playing well in his contract year and then sucking once he gets the big deal raises all the red flags in the world… but Hinrich doesn’t strike me as the ‘got rich time to rest’ type of guy. There HAS to be something else there.
If the problem can be diagnosed and is something that can be fixed, then I think Hinrich could be great for the Blazers. Aside from being blazingly quick, he’s pretty much what we’ve been asking for. And, I’d say he’s quite a bit better than Steve Blake, but maybe not 2.5 times as good…
This is a situation where my trust of KP kicks in, because I don’t think anyone has any idea why Hinrich took such a step back. I tend to think it’ll be a Chris Kaman-type temporary setback, and for Hinrich a change of scenery with an organization and fanbase that would actually like him could do wonders.
I think if we did trade RLEC, Jack, and whoever we draft at #13, we wouldn’t likely get Thabo back because I think the Bulls like him. That’s fine with me, as I think he’s remarkably overrated. Can’t shoot, not that athletic, he’s lanky and has the reputation of a good defender but hasn’t done much at all. I think his exoticness helps him. But, the Bulls like him so Cedric Simmons (who I really don’t know much about) would be more likely.
KP would have to be SURE about Hinrich, because we lose most of our flexibility if we deal for him, don’t we?
Mortimer
That much might not be necessary
if the bulls’ fanbase hates him as much as the bulls’ blog indicates, then we might be able to get away with sending just raef over there, since his contract plus drafting rose would reduce the amount of leverage that the bulls would have. Honestly, I don’t think a raef for heinrich trade would be bad at all, as long as we’re certain that he is the pg of the dynasty.
by premthegrem on May 27, 2008 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions
To be fair to Love...
and I really cannot believe I am defending him like this (I really do not want to draft him), he actually has decent vertical athleticism (as I recall a few spectacular blocks in the A&M game), what he lacks is lateral mobility. He is said to be improving and his vertical continued to show improvement (especially in the video Chad Ford offered on espn). That being said, I am hesistant about players who all of a sudden refine their bodies right before the draft. Yeah, I know it can be tough to eat right during college, but who is to say that will change once you are in the pros?
And Morty, I am completely with you in regard to all of the other prospects. Batum is the only one I would take a flyer on, and I would do so only if there was really no one else to pick, and I want to stash someone in Europe. I really don’t see him on the Blazers, but maybe he could be a useful trade asset down the road.
by The Graduate on May 27, 2008 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Not advocating Love, but
Look, from everything I’ve heard from people who actually knew the guy Kevin Love is as arrogant and uncoachable as we’ve heard, but I have to defend him even further than The Graduate has already. You don’t rebound like Love does without three things: quickness, fundamentals, and instincts. He is certainly not fast (by any measure) but he is laterally quick. He can burst from left to right to create steals and to grab loose balls. After that he usually has to take a smoke break, but my point stands.
The real risk you take when you pass on Kevin Love is that he is that special undersized player who will always grab ten rebounds and start the break—a lesser Chuck, if you will. Also, you never want to let a pencil-thin beard of such fine quality land on an opponent’s roster.
BLZRS FRVR
by nightbluefruit on May 27, 2008 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
You also need strength
Love is the best rebounder in college basketball because he has the strength to establish good position and muscle everyone else out of the way.
Also, I don’t agree with the assumption that some people are making that if a player is white, they must automatically be less athletic than a black player and that they will be doomed to failure in the NBA. Sure there are some white players who are unathletic, but there are also guys like Joe Alexander who is clearly more athletic than most black players.
According to Canzano, (consider the source) anyone who drafts Love will
also be drafting his father, Stan. The guy is, apparently, very outspoken and not afraid to go to the media with his opinions.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
There are clearly exceptions
But I find nothing wrong with being honest and saying that most white players are not nearly as athletic as most black players. It’s just a fact of life.
There are exceptions, and the way Joe Alexander is described, he could be one of them. You could cut and paste his draft express profile to Travis Outlaw’s bio and no one would know the difference.
When was there a white guy as athletic as the most athletic black players? We’ll see how Joe Alexander looks against NBA athleticism, so I’d leave him out of the argument. WHO has been that athletic and white, and actually in the NBA?
Love fits the ‘unathletic white big’ label to a T. If he can get in shape, he’ll only help his draft stock and do a part to shake the reputation as a guy not athletic enough to NBA it up, but he will easily be on the lower end of NBA bigs in the athleticism department. College bigs, on average, are not very athletic, so Love excelling against them doesn’t mean all that much in regards to it translating to the NBA. He’ll rely on his tricky post moves and soft touch to score, which will only take him so far if he is just smaller and slower and less athletic than other NBA bigs (who will most likely be black).
With very, very, very, very few exceptions, a white player is less athletic than a comparable black player.
Tom Chambers? That’s the last athletic white big I can remember, as in, athletic even when compared with athletic black dudes. Obviously pretty much any white guy who has been in the NBA (aside from Mark Eaton and Shawn Bradley) is a pretty exceptional athlete; only when compared to even more elite black NBA athletes do they look unathletic.
I know some object to this kind of talk, and this sort of stereotype, but in the NBA it is pretty much true.
With very few exceptions.
Besides, it is something that shows on the court, and doesn’t come from nowhere.
Hey, Manu Ginobili is white, and he’s pretty athletic. Yeah, he’s from Argentina, but he’s as white as white can be and 100% Italian to boot. So, he counts as white as most white Americans. Rudy looks athletic too, but if anyone is doubting how he’ll translate it’ll be because the NBA has such elite athletes at the guard positions.
To be semi-blunt, it’s not ‘some’ white players who aren’t as athletic as the average black player, it is 99% of white players who aren’t as athletic. Athletic ability isn’t everything of course, and there will always be guys of every race who will be very successful NBA players through their skill and ability.
Not to say Love is the same type of player at all, but many of the things people say to defend Love and how he’ll translate to the NBA were said about Adam Morrison. The NBA eats up guys who aren’t very big or athletic.
Mortimer
Rex Chapman comes to mind
It has been a while but yeh…Rex. Also Dan Marjely (speeeling ain’t right) was also pretty darn atheltic
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 27, 2008 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah! Rex Chapman was a pretty cool dunker
And Thunder Dan Marjele was athletic too. I think a nice name for a dog would be Thunder Dog Marjele.
I also meant to add to my post that every white player should be judged by how they play, and not by their whiteness. And, I think everyone does that. Kevin Love is accused of being an unathletic whitey because he is. Joe Alexander is not accused of this slur because he is not.
Also, a black player isn’t automatically seen as ultra athletic just because of their skin color. These are things that are almost always based on how the player plays, so again, I do not think it is unfair to accuse a person (who happens to be white) of being unathletic when it is so (often the norm).
Dirk Nowitzki is pretty athletic for a 7 footer, but it is his skill and shooting that makes him effective, not any sort of overwhelming athletic ability.
Mortimer
True , but....
...no one ever mentions big, slow, wooden black players of which there are plenty (lookin at you Jamal Magloire). There have been a drought of flashy athletic white guys lately …but not unheard of as shown above.
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 27, 2008 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions
The wooden bigs
Magloirable, Dampier, the Collins brothers, those wooden stiffs all have a special place in NBA fans’ hearts where they are either disliked for how much they make or embarrasing to watch because their one skill is being tall.
But, it kinda proves what I was saying, because NO ONE accuses them of being athletic just because they are black. They are stiffs in the league because of their height, not their skill and athletic dominance.
And really, in the 4 and 5 (especially 5) position, if you are tall enough you are more likely to get away with less athleticism. Big men who can do ANYTHING useful are rare always, and that is why stiffs like those above will always have a job in the NBA. It doesn’t make them anything more than role players, but it keeps them in the league unlike a 6’7” two guard with a lack of athleticism.
So, Love not being a uber athlete and being a power forward isn’t the end of the world, BUT he definitely isn’t very big for a power forward and is downright tiny for a center (Orlando measurements will tell the entire tale of course). If LMA has trouble getting position and banging inside, how will Love do? Love will always have a spot in the NBA because of his skill, but his size and lack of athleticism will likely keep him from ever being more than a role player.
If he was explosive, overpowering with his offense, able to use his quickness to make up for his size, maybe it’ll be different. He is supposedly getting in shape for the first time, perhaps that’ll help. I can’t say I’m too excited about the chances of a pudgy 19 year old athlete (how on Earth are you out of shape?!) who is also likely undersized and not all that quick, suddenly reversing all of that AND being able to keep it up during the long 82 game season. Is it a contract year type thing?
I’m getting off track again… my point is, no one grants bad black players the reputation of being good athletes, and a white player who IS a good athlete isn’t discriminated against by NBA GMs as a bad athlete just because of their skin color. The evidence is always out on the court, and athleticism is easy to see.
And it just so happens to be that most white players, ESPECIALLY white bigs, aren’t nearly as athletic as the best of their black counterparts. When that is true, as in this case, we should be free to point it out as clear as the sky is blue.
Love is certainly more athletic than Roy Hibbert, but fortunately for Hibbert, he is 7’2” and will have a long career as a big tall stiff getting dunked on in posters by Greg Oden.
Mortimer
Where can I get that poster??
I am ready for the poster!!
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 28, 2008 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions
While we're talking race
Any reason Ginobli or pau Gasol or Steve Nash would not be “white”? Pau is from Spain, but that’s european. Ginobli looks like he has a lot of european blood even though he’s from Argentina. Steve Nash is Canadian… does that mean he’s not white? I’d say all those guys are athletic. Nash may not dunk, but man can he RUN.
Americans tend to be mutts. We have ALLLL kinds of blood flowing through us.
While I agree with your post, and there are muscle types that have a tendency towards various races, I just like to be contrary from time to time.
"I got the goose bumps." - Rudy translated by Alamart
Chris Andersen
aka the Birdman, aka the guy who got suspended for two years for doing some drug that wasn’t weed. He was just recently reinstated, is 6’10” and athletic as hell.
by BlazersOrBust on May 28, 2008 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I've been advocating Mayo for a few days now.
I think his strengths fit what Portland is looking for, and his attitude problem has been a little overblown. However, they still are red flags. I absolutely don’t want to give the farm away for a draft pick, especially not one who does have red flags. But if we could get him cheap enough, I’d want to give it a try.
But that’s where the problem comes in. It’s starting to look like Minnesota is starting to like the idea of a Foye-Mayo backcourt. If we want him, we’re going to have to go after #3. On top of that, rumors are going that Miami is willing to trade down to get him, if not spend the #2 pick on him outright if Rose goes #1. Minnesota is going to be looking for something valuable. I don’t want to give up good guys and take back horrible contracts. Not for a draft pick.
As well as I think Mayo could fit here, the price tag for getting him is more than I want to pay.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
Mayo will do well in the NBA,
he does have all the skills. On the court and in the locker room everyone says he’s great, coach-able, and hard working. But I don’t want another guy who keeps having even the “odd situations” off the court like the Telfair gun on the plane thing. Players whose mothers talk smack to the press for them make me nervous too, although Iverson has done great in staying somewhat clean. And Love reminds me of a Z-BO for some reason. I say no to both, but if we could get Mayo we could get something good in return for him. I want to see what everyone thinks of Joe Alexander. If we do draft the #13, I would be happy with Alexander.
I like Alexander...
I have been saying this a lot already, but I will continue to until the draft. Any guy who wants to model his game after Matt Harpring (see his interview on draftexpress.com) is good for the Blazers as far as I am concerned. Plus, he has far more athleticism than Harpiring. But does he have the BB IQ? I guess we will see.
by The Graduate on May 27, 2008 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
keep in mind if minnesota takes mayo
theyll have telfair and mayo, id imagine that duo would get some playing time together.
"Honor Terry Porter." Email me with your TP stories and memories.
by Ben Golliver on May 27, 2008 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions
If they draft Mayo...
That’s the worst thing that could happen to Telfair, since he doesn’t have a new deal and Minny would likely go with Foye and Mayo over Telfair and Mayo. However, he’d still be able to be a backup, but not exactly what Telfair needs if he is gonna show he can be a real PG.
Minny has shown every intention of re-signing Telfair, because he played well for them, but it sure would hurt his bargaining power if they draft Mayo. More importantly, it’d hurt his playing time.
If McHale reportedly thinks Beasley is another JR Rider, I wonder what he thinks of Mayo… (if such reports are true, of course).
C’Mon Bassy, don’t let them draft Mayo!
Mortimer
This is my plan
Trade Joel, Outlaw, Jack, 2-3 future unprotected firsts (we won’t have room for new guys in the next few years anyways) and $3 million.
We get back #3 (Mayo), and Antoine Walker (or whatever contract they want to foist on us…)
We keep #13 in that scenario and bring in either Alexander, Greene or Batum to be James Jones insurance/replacement policy until he is ready to go in a couple years.
That leaves:
PG – Blake/Mayo/Sergio
SG – Roy/Rudy
SF – Webster/Jones/Alexander (or whoever)
PF – LMA/Frye/McBob
C – Oden/Lafrenz/Backup C who will gladly take MLE (Joel is not that important in the long run – we have Oden!!!)
Tell me that roster would not be the bomb!
Yes, the bomb!
I only wonder if it will explode in our hands.
It never rains for everibody´s pleasure.
I believe it would...
Mayo would not want to be the fourth fiddle. And getting rid of Joel, Travis, and Jack to do so?
On behalf of Ann… #25
On behalf of me… #10
by The Graduate on May 27, 2008 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions
I just don't think either of those two will give us what we need
With this evolving roster I think Outlaw is gone (he can’t play defense, or team ball on offense), his scoring is replaced and then some with Rudy anyways.
As for Joel? Well, he’s a backup and a dang good one. But he’s still a backup. WE HAVE GREG ODEN PLAYING CENTER FOR ALL BUT 15 MINUTES OR LESS PER GAME! I know we’ll need a backup but we can find a serviceable backup that will take the place of Joel. I’m thinking of Nesterovic.
Nesterovic.
Better player than Joel in offense, but he couldn´t defend Howard. The center position was a black hole for Toronto. No, thanks.
It never rains for everibody´s pleasure.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree
Outlaw still has plenty of growth potential. He may not be the Heisenberg of basketball IQ, but he has shown he can learn and if he focuses on improving his D, he could end up being a future 6th MOY candidate.
Joel may have hands of stone (although they’ve softened to something between pumice and clay – probably pumice given that one of them broke), but he is an excellent defender, is willing to take a hard charge, sets good picks and most importantly, is the closest thing to an ‘enforcer’ on the PTB – something this team badly needs. Also, if you think Oden is going to be playing 30+ minutes in his rookie year, you need to take off the Rose (City) colored glasses. He’s going to get into a lot of foul trouble because (1) he’s a rookie and (2) every center and power forward in the league will be gunning for him. I’d love to see him in the 30-minute range, but at least for 2008-9, I’m thinking it will be closer to 20-minutes.
Also, you gotta love a guy (Joel) who basically says that if Oden wants the starting center job, he’s gonna have to work for it.
by DonkeyShins on May 27, 2008 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Can we make a bet about Oden's minutes?
I keep hearing this 20-minute thing and I couldn’t disagree more with it. If Oden doesn’t average at least 28 minutes a game his rookie year, I’ll eat my nonexistent internet hat. Let’s make that our over-under. You and me DonkeyShins! Mano a mano! Over or under 28?? Only time will tell…
(P.S. we agree about Joel’s value. Plus I loved the pumice reference).
by BlazersOrBust on May 27, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
You're on!
If I’m wrong, I’ll ban Fatty for a year.
I don’t wear hats. How about if I’m wrong I’ll praise your insightful commentary and great fashion sense?
Perfect
and if I’m wrong, then I’ll throw my full weight behind all your points, vociferously agreeing with them until you tire of having a yes-man dog your every post.
by BlazersOrBust on May 28, 2008 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Totally
If DWIGHT HOWARD, who still gets in foul trouble, can play 30 mins a night his rookie year, then Oden—who will be on a better team with decent defenders around him—can average 30 mins a night as well.
I think people are misunderstanding how easy it is to play 30 minutes a night, and also underrating Oden’s intelligence and body control. He isn’t an out of control ogre just throwing his body around like Ha Seung-Jinn. Oden is an elite athlete and a smart kid who will adjust and do well.
Sure, he’ll have nights where he gets 2 quick fouls in 3 minutes. But on average, he’ll easily play 30 minutes a night unless he is still hurt or has bad conditioning. I doubt he will be poorly conditioned to play with how hard we got him working, and his injury should be in good shape by November.
I am not worried.
Remember how little it felt like Joel played last year? He played almost 20 minutes. It isn’t much time, especially for a guy like Oden.
Mortimer
Nbadraft.net agrees
They had this to say about the second summer league game:
Oden was able to break free for a dunk early but was called for a bs technical after supposedly holding onto the rim too long. Apparently these (numberless) refs are trying to make a name for themselves too. Oden got into foul trouble again, with a number of questionable second half foul calls.
Many of the calls on Oden were BS, he won’t have that problem in a real game with real refs.
Joel Freeland=Stud
Total baloney
Those calls were really annoying to watch, because they were callin’ nuthin’.
Calling a technical on Oden for hanging on the rim is just the ref being an old grouch, BUT, Oden would definitely get T’d up for that in a real NBA game unless people are below him. Oden loves to hang on the rim and do chin ups, and it looks awesome, but he’ll get a T from any ref for that.
I hope they let it go though, because it’ll be Oden’s trademark dunk and will be a lot cooler than Shaq’s gorilla dunk.
Mortimer
Did I tell you I met Werner Heisenberg when I was a kid?
It’s true. I don’t remember it but my dad does. We were walking across the campus of the Max Planck Institute in Munich in 1969. Heisenberg was a big dorky redheaded dude.
Winning is everything.
Yes but he has his "Principles"
and you can’t take that away from him
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 27, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Ouuuuch
I thought it, and now I wish I’d said it.
by BlazersOrBust on May 27, 2008 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
The quick and the dead ..baby!
The quick and the dead!
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 27, 2008 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Good one
Ya got me there.
I’m just hoping it explodes all over the league’s face! Don’t mind the imagery…
:D +1
and who says this is a family site.
by BlazersOrBust on May 27, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I would honestly
love to read some of your posts in Spanish if you can be this clever in English. I tip my cap to you, sir, you get better at this humble language by the hour. I agree with you, Amlmart. My problem is this—quality big men don’t fall off of trees. I would part with Joel, but not in a deal for Mayo, because he’s not a sure enough thing for me and I believe that Pryzzie’s contributions are gonna be vital to our championships-winning squad.
And if the worst happens and Oden is constantly hampered by injury (perish the thought, but he hasn’t played a second of NBA basketball and he’s been plagued by injuries for the last two years) we are screwed - I reiterate, screwed - at center if we trade Joel. Oh sure, Mayo, Roy, and LMA would be great. Just go ahead and ask Washington how Arenas, Butler, and Jamison are working out for them championships-wise. Joel’s not expendable until and unless Oden becomes a monster.
by BlazersOrBust on May 27, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks, I don´t deserve it but I´ll pretend i do.
My sword and my pen are at your service, bro. Of course, the pen is here mightier than the sword.
It never rains for everibody´s pleasure.
I want love as much as any one
however, I don’t want to trade joel at all. I would be willing to trade future picks, 2nd rounders, paul allens money and Outlaw which I believe is enough. I also think we can move down a few spots by trading Jack making the fall from 3rd less dramatic. if we tip toe our way down the draft using players like Jack, 2nd rounders and pauls money to around the 6-9 section of the draft and then offer the pick, outlaw and a future or two it should be enough to grab him.
by Blazermaniac77 on May 27, 2008 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd be happy with that
I’d love to keep Joel but I am willing to move him to solidify our future starting lineup. I’m not so sure Joel is still here when we are winning rings.
Plus he is injured all the time. Seriously.
You maniac! Nobody's gonna love you if you keep trying to trade Travis.
#25
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
I know :(
I feel dirty even suggesting it. I love the guy, truthfully he’s been one of my favorite players in one of the longest times. He’s a player that I will cheer for no matter where he is at and I believe he may be one of the best all around guys in pro sports. It’s just that I see a possible minute crunch coming up and not that his mins will suffer all that much but trade values will go down and I think he’s our most expendable quality player. I don’t see him starting on our championship team because of position but I think we may be able to get a starting PG with him included as the main bargaining chip. I would rather trade Frye, even though he’s a great guy too. I don’t want #25 gone but I see where he might be the right guy to move if we were to trade a key piece.
by Blazermaniac77 on May 27, 2008 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions
To be truthful, #25 is really just my shorthand for saying I don't want to see anyone go.
But after the big 3, Travis is the one I want to remain a Blazer the most. What I really want is to let everything settle until the end of next season and then see what we’ve got. I don’t know how anyone can predict how this team, in situ except for the amazing addition of Greg and Rudy, will do next year. I just want to wait and see what we’ve already got before we start plugging and unplugging people. You have to know what you’ve got before you know what needs to be changed. I don’t care how many trade machines you use, you won’t know that until you watch these guys play as a team.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
I tire of the constant trade rumors
I think the white team of Joel, Frye, Trout, Rudy and JJ, Sergio should scare the Bejesus out of some teams next year! The Cake is set, lets take the time to bake it properly and see what kind of frosting we need to add to it. Oden, LMA, Martell, Roy and Blake ROCKS!
I think I love you
Tell me that white unit isn’t better than some starting 5’s in the East. See, it cannot be done. The Blazers as a whole are better now, than they would be if we added a “big” name. Look at the Lakers, they are kickin’ butt and taking names because they come at teams with wave after wave of guys with energy who can play defense and score. Trading away the Blazers bench for one guy will just get them knocked out of the playoffs sooner than us fans would like.
by tominhawaii on May 28, 2008 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
I think I replied to this earlier,
But I just want to reiterate that I think that this is way too much to give up for a draft pick. If, after he’s established, and is living up to his expectations, then maybe, but I’m not going to assume that any draft pick is going to live up to their mythical poential until I see it. Well, except for Oden and Fernandez, because we already have them. Of course they’ll live up to their potential.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
Antoine Walker
He has a team option, so he has only one year left on his contract. Marco Jaric makes too much money though.
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/minnesota.htm
Joel Freeland=Stud
PHEW
That makes a lot more sense. Pick up the option after next year, you gotta pay the following year as well. Somehow I doubt anyone is picking up that team option.
When I read he was signed for 4 more years, I almost cried for the poor soul who made that deal for Walker. He must have the best agent in the world as it is, to get a deal that still had 4 more years on it (meaning someone made that deal a year or two ago, long after Walker was poison on the court). A team option though… PHEW!
Not that I think we’re trading for Minny’s pick, thus sticking us with Walker, but someone might be and I shed tears on behalf of that team. Now, I feel better.
The sun is shining through my window now, showering me with the healing light of a new tomorrow.
Mortimer
My thought exactly
I was using ESPN’s trade machine and couldn’t believe Walker’s contract. It was just so bad that I had to check it out with another source… Reaf would be laughing if Walker had 4 more years at that price!
Don’t worry about getting Minnesota’s pick, according to draftexpress McHale is going to take Love. Thank the Lord that he is still a GM.
Joel Freeland=Stud
Ah, that's where my mistake was made.
That’s the last time I trust ESPN for anything.
EPSN Lastweek’s News: “Chicago had the first pick”
T Darkstar: “I’m still not gonna trust them because of Antoine Walker!”
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
I trusted ESPN
To know what Travis Outlaw looked like. It confused me whenever I watched a Blazers game because I kept looking for Bo Outlaw.
Joel Freeland=Stud
The idea of trading Joel isn't popular
He’s good for us, reasonably priced. Bringing in an unkown youth for a SOLID contributor and a BIG guy is risky of course. Also, if you’re willing to deal Joel, he’s probably worth more than that. He’s a starting center. He may be our back up of the future, but last year he started on a 500 team in the West (which is equvalent to a .650 team in the east). You could use him to get much more than Mayo.
That’s just a bad value trade for us. Outlaw has so much upside and Joel’s there now. Not only are we minus in the talent department on that trade (at this point), but we take on a contract that’s bloated and that we’d have to buy out. Walker will never wear a PTB uniform.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
I think I love you too
The roster needs a tweak, not an overhaul.
by tominhawaii on May 28, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Can I add a couple names to the list?
Arthur and Gallinari.
Arthur because he just wreaks of underperformance and being the guy who you think you can rely on to produce something, but who just disappears and cashes his paychecks.
And Gallinari. We need another unproven Euro project like we need a hole in the head.
Unless management has scouted him, feels REALLY high on him, we don’t have any other appealing options, and he’s willing to sit in Europe for a year or two developing… this would be an incredibly frustrating pick for us.
100% agree
Love could be good, but there is much work to do. As said above, he makes a great college player. Raef was a great college player for the Jayhawks, but never really moved beyond that.
Mayo is just trouble. Mighty USC lost to perennial loser Kansas State in the biggest stage of Mayo’s career. Beasley is a great player, but Mayo had more talent around him. USC should have never lost or even been in a position to lose. Frankly, I just do not like the guy.
Garage sale yes......
But I feel that he would have a hard time gaurding the couch as well. So I liken him to a velvet painting of Billy ( The Whopper ) Pultz.
2-4 the who
Agree on Love, Disagree on Mayo
My stance on Mayo is that he’s going to be very good, assuming things have been blown out of proportion. This is where the KP evaluation comes in which will provide information that we don’t have access to.
That said, Mayo is a VERY good player and he has a killer instinct. He attempted to play team ball with a bad team, and paid for it in the Media. He DID fail to turn the team into a shining star, but a crap team did make it into the play-offs.
He’s athletic, he can hit the outside shot, he can pass, he can create his own shot. Talent wise, this guy is going to be VERY good, and I believe better than Rose. If he’s not a nut job his ceiling is the highest in this draft, in my opinion.
Even his NCAA violations are almost nothing. Basically his friend took all the money and according to the exfriend Mayo didn’t get that much which makes me wonder if he got anything at all or wasn’t even aware. I don’t have a link to the story but google up some Mayo.
The Ref flopped and he was throwing the ball into the stands and people changed it to something else on youtube and then the media because it made a cool story.
He’s a hard worker and people who have actually met him in various stories have been impressed and changed their minds.
I think Mayo is one who deserves more of a look. He scores at the right time, he passes at the right time, he has a high BB IQ.
Now, can Mayo coexist with Roy, Aldridge, Rudy, and Oden? I think that’s a good question because people with killer instincts need to lead or they become complacent. After all, teams shouldn’t be all start teams. However, if you’re going for best available, Mayo really is the best in the draft. I think.
"I got the goose bumps." - Rudy translated by Alamart
Don't kid yourself...
That really wasn’t a bad USC team. Hackett, Jefferson, Gibson… they had a lot of ball players there (although perhaps not experienced). He certainly is talented, but I also have concerns on how he would fit in on the Blazers.
All this said, I believe Derrick Rose to be the better basketball player in both the short and long run.
by The Graduate on May 27, 2008 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah
My stance on Mayo is that he’s going to be very good, assuming things have been blown out of proportion. This is where the KP evaluation comes in which will provide information that we don’t have access to.
Does it even matter if the pay stuff is completely true? Talent overcomes anything, almost. If this guy can play basketball really well, that’s all that matters. You start to think about the character flaws some of the superstars in the NBA have had… and you start to get a perspective on these things. I mean, Jordan and Barkley were/are both degenerate gamblers; tons of greed, lack of loyalty everywhere you look; Out of wedlock children, drug abuse, etc etc…
I’m not saying this makes Mayo the choice, but thought it was worth pointing out.
by lyleleander on May 27, 2008 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Talent doesn't make up for everything
Yes many stars are flawed, but the starts that win have focus above all else. There are vices that get in the way of it. There are vices that destroy chemistry. What’s important isn’t the lack of vices, as you pointed out, but vices that will not get in the way of winning, won’t ruin team chemistry, and won’t alienate fans.
We may have won when we were buying a championship way back when, but honestly… i wasn’t a huge fan of the people on the team. Winning erases some of that but character DOES matter to me.
I think Mayo can learn and his biggest issue is a lack of a good role model. He’ll definitely find that on the blazers and stepping outside of that will be frowned upon.
"I got the goose bumps." - Rudy translated by Alamart
I bet you wouldn't be saying that if we actually did "buy" one...
Just sayin’. Winning makes it all go down easier.
Plus, are you saying this team wouldn’t be enjoyable to watch if it had Mayo on it?
There was nothing special
about the team we bought and the championship we attempted to. Yes it would have been AWESOME if we won, but I didn’t connect with players on that team except for Grant, who became greedy.
Admittedly all the faults that came out later made it worse, but I had some issues then and losing DID make it worse.
Sheed didn’t give 100%, that bothered me.
Players smoked pot (reduced reaction times) and that bothered me.
Players didn’t play their hearts out, and that bothered me.
I don’t think I said anything about Mayo not being fun to watch. I was simply attempting to point out vices that we should be aware of. We can sacrifice and pay some vices and that willingness will depend on the player and will depend on the long term effect on the team. A star that wins one or two now but rips down your team after two years is going to be hard to swallow when you had a window of 10-15 years.
"I got the goose bumps." - Rudy translated by Alamart
"The Ref flopped and he was throwing the ball into the stands and people changed it to something else on youtube and then the
media because it made a cool story.” I watched that. I think that ref taught Vlade Divac everything he knows. He probably taught all the European floppers. I remember when it was “in the news” I watched the video lots of times and no matter, he didn’t touch that ref.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
I know!
I wish there was a different angle on that. I REALLY don’t see how contact was even made. Now, I do think Mayo got too much in the personal space and maybe the ref had an accident in his pants and almost fainted, but he didn’t shove.
"I got the goose bumps." - Rudy translated by Alamart
I believe Mayo scored quite high on his ACT's.
"Besides, AnntheFan will be here any minute to #25 you." T Darkstar
Love no; Mayo maybe.
I agree that drafting Kevin Love would be stupid. O.J. Mayo, I’m not convinced. Reading about the smoke you’re referring to down here in the LA Times, it’s no where near clear that O.J. did anything wrong. And even if he did, it’s pretty standard NCAA corruption and really a sign of his talent that people would be willing to bend or break rules to curry favor with him. Would you have not drafted Reggie Bush for the same reasons? Regardless, I think Mayo would have more value as a commodity. If he’s the best player available at 13, I think KP will take him.
But yeah, Kevin Love is a no-no. We don’t need him on the court and we really don’t need him to get people in the stands. He brings nothing we need and I don’t think he’d bring much back in a trade.
There are articles out there covering all the Mayo
The pot was not his and he was cleared, but as his mom pointed out, it was his choice to get in the car and he’s stated that he’s regretted that poor decision.
He’s lacked a good mentor who wasn’t trying to take a piece of him.
He was tossing a basketball to someone in the crowd
That ref FLOPPED big time. You can check out the videos.
Team mates jaw was broken during a player only pick-up game… in game.
He did have two fights in high school and skipped some classes. Sounds like his father figured dropped him from his life and then he ended up struggling. That’s normal.
Now, KP and crew need to review him, but if they don’t find major issues, then you draft this kid.
"I got the goose bumps." - Rudy translated by Alamart
Wow...
that is quite a list there. How many times can we bail a guy out?
by The Graduate on May 27, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions
go research
sometimes there’s smoke because it makes a good story. my point is that it’s all smoke except possibly the NCAA thing.
"I got the goose bumps." - Rudy translated by Alamart
That's a lot of smoke.
And where there’s smoke there’s fire.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
Not always
sometimes it’s one of those smoke bombs with yellow, red, or blue smoke.
"I got the goose bumps." - Rudy translated by Alamart
Oh zing
Now that’s what I call a rebuttal.
by BlazersOrBust on May 28, 2008 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually,
I probably wouldn’t have drafted Reggie Bush, but for different reasons. Man, those Houston Texans… who would of thought old Mario Williams was the right pick?
by The Graduate on May 27, 2008 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Dave, fans,
If you watched the ESPN Sunday Conversation about Mayo two Sundays ago, you will remeber the great point that was made by Louis Johnson, the guy that came forward with all of the information for the story. When asked why he is telling this story he said:
“I believe that by coming forward, by talking about the things that I’ve seen, that it’s going ot force OJ to make some cahnges in his life that he desperately needs right now.”
Everyone knows Mayo’s character has been questioned and will probably be for many years. But I honestly believe Mayo is a good man, and believe that this story becoming public will act as a catalyst to get him to where he wants to be in his life – at the top of his game on and off the court.
sorry about the double post, they are the same
Dave, how come we can’t delete our comments if we choose to?
At #13
You take either one of they fall to us. With the level of love that KP gets from the fans, he could draft Satan and all but John C*nzano would accept it. Everyone would assume he has a plan. I think both will be good players in the NBA, Love’s problem is that he’ll be a lottery pick and he should be picked later in the draft because he’s going to be the first guy off the bench. I think teams should use lottery picks on starters.
Four
That's what I was thinking too
KP could trade Roy for Adam Morrison, and I’d go “Hmm, I’ll wait and see where this is going…”. Move Oden for Sheldon Williams, and I’ll say “Well, Williams is a lunch pail player and just needed a new home. Oden hasn’t even played a game yet, his numbers are nothing compared to Sheldon”. LMA for Oj Mayo, and “Duh, we need a new combo guard since Roy broke our hearts and had himself traded by KP, of COURSE Mayo makes sense”...
But if he moves Martell for anyone short of Lebron, THEN he loses my trust.
Personally, I can’t wait for our core to become Ammo/Sheldon/OJ, because what has our current big three won? I’m so sick of going .500 every year, we need a change.
KP KNOWS, MAN!
Mortimer
A couple of more guys to stay away from
—Brook Lopez. He hasn’t been mentioned and the Blazers wouldn’t seem to have any interest in him, but there’s at least a 50% chance that he’ll be a bust. Actually, you can say that about all of the centers in this draft. Lopez is very skilled, but not explosive and not extraordinarily strong.
—Randolph (LSU). He is a younger Travis Outlaw, with more uncertainty (at this point). I don’t see why we would want to add another player like Outlaw to the roster.
—Any of the guards expected to be picked after Westbrook. The value of guards has been bid up in this draft class. Stay away from Ty Lawson.
Hold the Mayo
Yep that’s what KP would say.
Blazers FIRST need is more low post muscle, GO will make a huge leap to the PTB getting there. But me thinks KP will be looking for more beef and bulk, either in the draft or by trade.
Pass on Love with 13? Well if we do, then KP (and Dave instincts) knew best.
KP KNOWS TALENT.. He went out and risked his future as a GM early on when he got us 2 untested rookies, in a supposedly so so draft. And in less than a year, sent Zach packing. He has the eye for sure.
Can’t wait to see what he does next .
The Oden Era, Day 342
Brandon Rush
Please oh please draft Brandon Rush if he is still available. THis guy has to be the most underrated player in the draft. He can defen, he can shoo the lights out and he has a Grade A personality. Exactlyt what Portland needs. HE gives them everything they want without any question marks of baggage. Portland is also the perfect place for him cause he doesn’t need to be the man there, which suits him perfectly. HE would also stretch the floor for Oden and Aldridge, whilst opening up the lanes for Roy. If he’s available please Pritchard draft him!!!
I tell you what
Maybe it’s because his first name is Brandon and his last name starts with an R, but he seems like the type of player that drops in the draft because of lack of ‘upside’ but his solid play translates to solid play in the NBA and he is a steal in the draft. Examples: Danny Granger, Josh Howard, Brandon Roy.
So, I like the cut of his jib from what I hear.
Only problem is, would he get playing time over Martell and Trout? I dunno about that.
I’d like to learn more about him though, and subscribe to your newsletter.
Mortimer
What's a jib?
Whohahahaha! Promote that man.
Also, is the poop deck what I think it is?
by BlazersOrBust on May 28, 2008 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
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