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The Hinrich File

As soon as the Chicago Bulls hit the lottery jackpot the question began circling:  How available is Kirk Hinrich and could the Blazers use him?  This was one of the lead questions on the ever-excellent Gavin Dawson show on 95.5 The Game and I’d like to elaborate here.

Before I do, many thanks to Matt at BlogaBull for helping refine some of the rough perceptions on Hinrich.  He’s helping me bring things to the table and making me look more informed than I probably actually am.  If you haven’t checked out his site yet, hop over there soon.

The very first question you have to ask with this issue is whether Chicago will take Derrick Rose over Michael Beasley.  The irony here shouldn’t escape notice.  The Bulls likely made a mistake passing up Lamarcus Aldridge a couple years ago and are still paying for it trying to find that big-man scorer.  The Blazers made a similar mistake a year prior passing up Chris Paul and Deron Williams and are still trying to find a point guard.  If Chicago takes the point guard then a possible solution might come available to us.  If they finally get their big man, however, we’re out in the cold, at least as far as the Hinrich deal.  I have not talked to Matt about this, but judging from the current internet temperature I’d say the odds were going about 65-35 towards them selecting Rose.  They’ve had no workouts or interviews yet though, so those rumor-induced odds are probably bogus.

Another factor to consider is that a new coach could prefer working with a veteran point guard, or at least having one in his hip pocket just in case.  Throwing all your eggs in Rose’s basket, especially with a team that’s been built to contend soon, could be risky.

But let’s assume the Bulls do take Rose and, since you don’t draft a guy #1 overall to watch him sit, they decide not to go with the year of induction under Hinrich.  There are several factors which recommend the Sioux City Sensation to the Blazers:

  • At 27 he’s a veteran.  We desperately need veterans who can play.  I think it’s becoming apparent to everyone that acquiring a veteran point guard of some sort is a priority if the Blazers’ immediate future is to be bright.
  • He’s durable.  Hinrich has never played fewer than 75 games in a season.  Given the relative fragility of some of our other stars so far, that’s a load off the mind.
  • He has good court vision.
  • He defends quite well for a point guard.
  • He’s careful with the ball, which should endear him to Coach McMillan.
  • He’s a good distance shooter, and well-rounded players who can also hit from distance are just what the doctor ordered for this team.

It’s not a complete slam-dunk, however.  There are also some cons:

  • Most obviously, he took a step backwards this season.  It’s always dangerous to trade for a guy of two years ago instead of the guy you’re actually getting.  Here are his stats if you want to check them.
  • Though he’s a good distance shooter he’s spotty as an overall scorer.  He doesn’t break down defenses and could be considered a mild, rather than dangerous, offensive threat.  We already have a bunch of guys in the supporting cast who, either through talent or inconsistency, fit that description.
  • He’s aggressive, which is a plus, but his abandon gets him in foul trouble.  You want your point guard steady and on the court.
  • He’s not necessarily a team leader.
  • Even though he’s a good defender, the word is he’s not as quick as he is big on defense.  He’s not going to be the miracle solution that shores up our backcourt. Here are the splits of some of the premium guards in the West against Chicago this year:
    • Allen Iverson  25.5 ppg on 53% shooting
    • Baron Davis   31 ppg on 45% shooting
    • Tony Parker   25.5 ppg on 54% shooting
    • Chris Paul       31 ppg on 62% shooting plus 13.5 assists
    • Deron Williams  17 ppg on 44% shooting plus 10.5 assists
    • Steve Nash   12 ppg on 38% shooting and 11 assists

The only below-average mark in the bunch was Nash’s offensive production.  Everything else was on average or, in some cases, far better.  Granted Chicago switches up guards a bit (just like Portland would) so this isn’t all on Kirk, but clearly putting Hinrich on the floor isn’t going to thwart the major competition in the West.

Nevertheless Hinrich would easily be a better defender than anyone we currently field at his position.  Also you can safely say that most of his weaker points (team leadership, scoring, even the “tweener” syndrome on defense with Oden coming in) are well-covered by the team whereas his strengths hit the sweet spot.

One of the other huge questions would be how well he’d match with Brandon Roy.  There’s no doubt that would be a skilled, smart, dedicated backcourt duo.  In fact for basketball purists there might not be many better in the league.  The major drawback would be the lack of physical domination.  Both guys get a ton out of their bodies, but when you start thinking about regular 82-game grinds plus a host of 7-game playoff series every year you’d like a little more explosiveness, athleticism, and intimidation to bail you out when the going gets rough.  (On the other hand, Greg Oden may provide enough of that for everybody.)  I’d guess that Roy and Hinrich would mesh well and probably enjoy playing together.

Now we get to the salary part.  This year Hinrich made $11.25 million.  His salary graduates downward through 2012 like so:

  • 2008-09  $10.25 million
  • 2009-10  $9.75 million
  • 2010-11  $9.25 million
  • 2011-12  $8.25 million

If the real Kirk Hinrich is the one we saw last year that’s a pretty spendy deal.  If, however, you believe he has the potential to be one of the unassumingly-premier point guards in the league it’s a good buy.  The downward graduation makes the contract easier to swallow.  It’s refreshing to have a guy who will be making less at age 31 instead of getting paid a hefty premium for what he used to be.  If Hinrich fulfills his potential at all that contract should remain tradeable as well.  It’s hardly poison.  In fact it’s not a ton more than Darius Miles’ contract was.

Much like the dollar figures, the length can either be reassuring or daunting depending on your assessment of Hinrich.  Another four years with a well-fitting, talented, not-too-expensive point guard would be marvelous.  Four years with an underachiever would be painful, perhaps devastating when you consider the summit of the Blazers’ expectations and the thin margin between success and failure at those heights.  One of the questions the Blazers will need to ask is, “Do we envision Kirk Hinrich as a starting point guard on a Conference Finals, NBA Finals, or championship team?”   If the answer is “no” or “I’m not sure” you can’t make the deal.

The contract throws one more potential fly in the ointment.  As a result of his recent contract signing Hinrich is a Base Year Compensation player this year.  In a nutshell this means that his contract is halved in terms of the amount Chicago can take back in trade for him, but retains its full value for purposes of counting against our cap in a potential trade.  In other words he counts as $11.25 million against our cap but Chicago can only take $5.5 million and change back for him.  Since both Portland and Chicago are over the cap there’s no way to make that trade using just two teams.  Cap rules prevent us from accepting $11.25 million while only giving out $5.5 million.  The only way this trade could work would be to find a third team with enough space under the cap to take some of our players for free.  In other words we’d send $5.5 million worth of players to Chicago for Hinrich and another $5.5 million in players to that third team for nothing, ridding ourselves of the necessary $11.25 million, give or take.  Obviously this is problematic.  First of all we’d have to find that third team that’s under the cap.  Second, they’d have to want our players.  Third, we’d have to trade not only enough value to Chicago to get them to give up Hinrich, but extra players worth $5 million or so to that third team.

This means that Raef LaFrentz cannot be part of a deal to acquire Hinrich right now.  His $12 million-plus salary is far more than Chicago could accept in return.  So whatever players we send to Chicago would be young players with smaller salaries.  Then we’d have to send more of those small salaries to the third team.  So now you’re talking about trading 3-4 of our young guys for Hinrich.  That means not just Jack, but guys like Sergio, Martell, Travis, and Channing Frye, in addition to that draft pick.  How much is Portland willing to give up to get this guy?  As long as Hinrich remains a Base Year Compensation player a deal seems highly unlikely.

The good news is that Hinrich’s BYC status expires as of July 1st of this year.  That means after July 1 the Bulls can just trade him normally without worrying about taking back only half of his salary.  His (at that point) $10.25 million contract will be just that…$10.25 million.  Chicago could trade with Portland on even terms.  All we have to do is hit within 25% (plus $100,000) of that $10.25 million with whatever salaries we send in return.  This opens up new, and much more palatable, trading possibilities.  However July 1 is well after the draft, meaning that the 13th pick could not be included, as such, in the package.  Unless we select specifically for Chicago in the 13th spot, intending to trade that player to them in July, that pick is probably off the table in the trade.

In short, a trade could be done, but many of the obvious-seeming ones being mentioned actually won’t work because of the BYC hang-up.

Would a trade for Hinrich be a good deal?  If we gave up the right pieces and if he panned out reasonably well, it could be fantastic.  But there’s a bit of gray area in there…enough that it’s not an automatic move.  It will be interesting to see how this develops.

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)

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I don't think much more of Hinrich than I do Blake

and Blake comes much ,much cheaper. Give Jack and Sergio another year too and if they don’t make progress on their weaknesses and become more consistent then ship em’ out.

If Travis and Martell keep improving they are going to want to get paid and you know we already have three players on our roster who will be near max level. If Rudy pans out he is going to want big money. Where does that put us with the cap 3 years from now? I don’t know but IMHO Hinrich is over compensated and his salary could cause problems not only with the cap but with fellow players saying, “Hey, KH is making 10 million and I’m as good as him and only making __.”

by oderiferous emanations 74 on May 21, 2008 11:19 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not a team leader?

he has been a captain for the bulls for a couple seasons.

Also I would throw out last season’s stats. That whole team and organization was in chaos last year. You can’t expect your player to play their best when you lose your coach, players fight with each other, and the organization has no idea what direction they want to go.

I would be in favor of getting Hinrich

Woof

by Charles Barkley McLovin on May 22, 2008 12:24 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He's been a captain

but apparently not a particularly vocal nor reassuring one.

—Dave

by Dave on May 22, 2008 12:33 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One point about the cap

Hinrich is slated to make about $10mill in the summer of 09 my trade would go like this:

Hinrich $10mill
Gooden $7

for

Raef $12.7
Jack $2.9
#13 $2

Now Gooden expires in 09 so that salary will be a push and adding Jack and the #13 would subtract about $5mill from Hinrich’s salary making him only cost us only $5mill in cap room in 09.

Considering some calculations, we would of had about $15-20mill in cap space so that will put us at $10-15mill to spend. As AndrewD pointed out in another Hinrich post these are the FAs in 2009:

Allen Iverson (almost certain to re-sign with Denver)
Rasheed Wallace
Baron Davis (if he does not exercise the opt out in 2008)
Elton Brand
Lamar Odom
Kobe Bryant (option)
Jason Kidd
Stephon Marbury
Jamal Crawford (player option for 09/10 and 10/11 – 50/50)
Eddy Curry (player option for 09/10, 10/11 – 50/50)
Hedo Turkoglu (player option for 09/10, unlikely)
Andre Miller
Steve Nash (player option, unlikely)
Grant Hill
Steve Francis
Ron Artest (can opt out in ‘08)
Mike Bibby
Carlos Boozer (player option for 09/10 unlikely)
Mehmet Okur (player option for 09/10 unlikely)

The Rookie Contracts:
Marvin Williams (restricted)
Raymond Felton (restricted)
Jason Maxiell (restricted)
Luther Head (restricted)
Danny Granger (restricted)
Andrew Bynum (restricted)
Hakim Warrick (restricted)
Andrew Bogut (restricted)
Charlie Villanueva (restricted)
Rashard McCants (restricted)
Chris Paul (restricted)
Nate Robinson (restricted)
David Lee (restricted)
Channing Frye (restricted)
Jarrett Jack (restricted)
Francisco "Paco" Garcia (restricted)
Deron Williams (restricted)

Not one PG or SF that I would want, any you guys see that are not restricted(meaning pretty much unattainable)? They either do not fit in age wise or skill wise. Also $15mill would be close to the max anyone can offer to a player that we would be targeting, a young player under 6 years in the league which would put them in the 25-26 year old range.

However having another $10mill to be able to take back in a trade would be handy for that final piece. As I look at players that could help us, Hinrich, Calderon, Harris and Battier are the only pieces that I would want to go for that are attainable. If we can get Hinrich/Gooden for Raef, Jack, and the 13th I say go for it, see if we can throw in some 2nd rounders to get a future first back.

I just do not see any players that are avalible and would fit what we need at this time better than Hinrich.

by SpyderRyder on May 22, 2008 12:38 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have followed Kirk since he came out of HS

as a fellow KU alum. I have always loved his determination and effort. That said, he plays better with a PG alongside. He does not create his own shot well, does not get elevation on his jumper, does not score well in the paint (lower FG than 3pt). I was amazed that Chicago paid he so much. That contract hurt the team with Deng and Gordon. Both are better scorers than Kirk. Both were offered less money. Chris Duhon has played PG much of his career to facilitate the offense for Kirk. How much of Kirk’s drop off last year was related to Chris missing 16 games and playing fewer minutes per game?

Here is my thing – we are another year away from knowing what we have. I do not think the assets needed to acquire Kirk would be well spent. Steve Blake is fine against Kirk and far cheaper. If KP likes him, Augustine may be in reach in this draft. Coach Bill Self called Augustine the best PG in the country this year. And Augustine is not a project – a heady player who can create his own shot and shoots better than any of these guys. I know there are others who want Westbrook and other PGs in the draft. I am not advocating against that but am simply saying we can do better for less in the draft. KP will pick the right one (if PG is his goal).

Aldridge said. "We feel like we can beat any team. We feel like we can beat the Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Mavericks, whoever any night right now, and we'll still be here when those teams get old and their guys retire. We're going to be here for a long time."

by lee3022 on May 22, 2008 1:37 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No to Hinrich

He’s had one good year and four years of average play. His skill set just duplicates what we have already have at SG who does it much better. Hinrich is an overpaid slightly upgraded Blake. I would rather pry Calderon before Hinrich.

BINGO, BANGO, BONGO

by blzrfan on May 22, 2008 3:38 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Another Blake Clone

Don’t want Hinrich. We need someone more athletic, talented, to keep up with Chris Paul, Williams, Rose, Mayo, etc. I like using the pick to get Westbrook. He has better offense and defense.

by blazerbill on May 22, 2008 7:20 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes to Hinrich

but I don’t to give up Outlaw, Martell of Frye.
His contract is not great but gets better over time and I’m only for the trade if we can get him cheap.
The good thing is that coach Nate worked with him on team USA, so he probably has a very good idea of HInrich as a player/teamate/person, if we end up trading for him I’ll be very confident it’s the right move.

by Falcao on May 22, 2008 7:23 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I read an article

in the local paper but originating in Chicago suggesting that if Chicago takes Rose that would free Hinrich to play the SG. It doesn’t sound like they feel the need to trade him which means this wouldn’t be a bargain sale.

The more focus that gets put on other possibilities at the point position helps me appreciate the possibilities we already have – I would like to see what Jack and Sergio can do with one more year. They both have the potential to make this kind of speculation go away.

by bbfred on May 22, 2008 7:49 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seems like they could do better....

I for one, would like to see them go after Andre Miller. He is a better defender, better passer and as far as team leadership goes, just ask Denver how much they miss him after the A.I. trade. The money is around the same, but the deal is much shorter and Cheeks might like to have a couple of his old Blazer players like Jack or Trout back. I feel that until they know what they have in Rudy, that they will wait to the trade deadline this year to move Raef’s contract. I mean look what the L&*kers came up with at the deadline, Gasol for Kwame Brown’s expiring contract! Plus, if Hinrich is so good, why have the Bulls been so dull to watch? Seems to me that they need a dynamic point gaurd as well, which is the reason they will take Rose.

2-4 the who

by 24thewho on May 22, 2008 8:22 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Miller=Too Old

If he was 27 instead of 127 he would be a great fit

"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein

by 92wastheyear on May 22, 2008 9:14 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If 32 is old

Then Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, D. Fisher, Bruce Bowen must not be able to contribute any longer. These players are only a small sample of some of the toughest players in the game. I think we see 32 as old because all of our players are in there mid to early 20’s, besides, I thought that we needed verteran leadership.

2-4 the who

by 24thewho on May 22, 2008 1:31 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeh a veteran

Just not a WWII veteran. Sorry …could not resist . lol . What I am getting at is that we are not winning the whole thing next year and by the time we do …miller will be 34-35 years old and will need to be replaced. Our guy really needs to be in the 27-29 year old range

"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein

by 92wastheyear on May 22, 2008 2:19 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Miller is *not* a better defender.

He is a better passer, much worse shooter, and he’s older and isn’t available. Not really in the discussion, I think, although I liked the idea of getting him midway through last season.

by howlingfantods on May 22, 2008 9:47 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No way

As others said, Hinrich is only an ever-so-slight upgrade over Blake at triple the price. Pass, big time.

by Lance Uppercut on May 22, 2008 9:20 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

something to consider

Dave, if the Blazers get Hinrich, you get all the users from my site who are Kirk fans (more than Bulls fans). I blame the state of Iowa.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 22, 2008 9:28 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow...

that might be worth it. We could build a basketball court in a cornfield, and then every attractive free agent target would come.

by The Graduate on May 25, 2008 5:38 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just a note about opposing pg splits

Often, Hinrich plays the bigger guard while Gordon usually guards the smaller guard. Gordon is terrible on defense, so Hinrich gets the “defensive stopper” assignments in the backcourt, although he’s more of a “defensive slower” than a “stopper” in terms of his ability.

As we’ve all seen, individual terrible defenders can bring an entire team defense down. Despite Ben being terrible, overall, the Bulls have been a terrific defensive squad. At least some of the credit has to go to Hinrich, who did yeoman work despite getting defensive assignments that he was really out of his depths on.

by howlingfantods on May 22, 2008 9:46 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No to Captain Kirk

we don’t need anybody around here with a Trekkie nickname.

Waitaminute….

by EngineerScotty on May 22, 2008 10:03 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL!

No Bones about that.

You seem a little hallucinated with these comparisons.

by MiledAnimal on May 22, 2008 2:44 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ok ...no Scotty, No Kirk, no Spock

They will Chekov‘ed the list

"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein

by 92wastheyear on May 22, 2008 3:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Picks for other people are done all the time

You can agree in principal to a deal and then officially consumate later, after July 1.

I believe this happened with the Rudy deal. He wasn’t officially ours until after the Jones hoops were jumped through.

by Samuelson on May 22, 2008 10:57 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If we can get Westbook

Screw Hinrich. I can see Westbrook as a Derek Fisher type.

by robrun2 on May 22, 2008 1:01 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

here's my issue with the Bulls dealing with Portland.

Both teams are looking to ‘consolidate’. So it’s hard for the Bulls to be interested in only ‘pieces’ coming from the Blazers. That includes the #13 pick (not to mention Hinrich’s still BYC before 7/1)

So I figure the only other thing they can offer is taking on long-term money in Hughes or Nocioni, and giving back LaFrentz’s expiring deal.

Something like Hinrich/Noc for Blake/Frye/LaFrentz or Hinrich/Hughes for Blake/LaFrentz

This messes up the Blazers plan to get under the cap after this season, but acquiring Hinrich hurts that cause anyway. They could try and hold out for the cap space and hope a pg comes on the market (Baron Davis? Andre Miller?) instead.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 22, 2008 2:04 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

True

However the other reason to get under the cap is so the Blazers can take more $ back in a trade than they ship out. That being said I am sure KP would send RLEC out in a trade…..if the right deal presents itself

"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein

by 92wastheyear on May 22, 2008 2:24 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The team will abandon the cap space

if they feel they are getting players as good as they would have gotten with it anyway. It’s doubtful that they’ll be able to sign a great free agent outright. My guess is they’re hoping some of their young, inexpensive pieces plus that cap space will allow them to execute a trade for a target player with a larger salary next summer. The question is who, and whether Hinrich and Nocioni would be comparable.

—Dave

by Dave on May 22, 2008 4:42 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Man...

Hinrich is cool and fine, but hell no do I want Annoycioni. We’ll already have Rudy, and he sounds like The Flopper King, we don’t need Annoycioni making us the least popular team in the world.

I’d rather watch Outlaw come into camp out of shape and never moving his feet on defense ever again than Nocioni. EEKS.

If we get the right player, I could care less about the cap space. There isn’t really anyone we can get with our cap space, unless KP knows something I don’t, which is 100% likely.

Mortimer

by Mortimer on May 22, 2008 4:48 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The cap space

can theoretically get anyone in a trade. You don’t have to restrict yourself to just free agents. If somebody is willing to deal, that cap space makes it exponentially easier to forge a bargain.

—Dave

by Dave on May 22, 2008 5:59 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oops

That’s what I meant, for the right player filling that cap space, I’d be all for it. FREE AGENTS aren’t really good for da gettin’ with the cap space in 2009, unless George Shinn tells Chris Paul his mother is ugly or something.

It’d be like what the Bobcats did in the Jason Richardson trade. Instead of signing a free agent, they absorbed a big contract. I’m cool with that, for sure, and it seems much more likely that is the sort of thing we’ll do. And really, like the Pau Gasol deal showed, who knows what or who will become available in a year’s time.

All I meant is that I’m not of fan of relying on free agency… always overpaid, underwhelming, and the players you want stay with their team anyways.

So, is Hinrich worth the possibility of losing out on taking advantage of a big trade in our favor? Is the 10-15 million we’ll have instead of 20—25 million in cap space enough? I’m not sure.

I could defnitely see Hinrich having a good bounce back year in a new situation on a team and fanbase that likes him. So, it is tempting to think about.

Mortimer

by Mortimer on May 22, 2008 6:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pass

Hinrich isn’t good enough in the first place to pursue and I think you want to be wary of the type of player you bring in to mesh with this group.

by leeroyjenkins on May 23, 2008 10:25 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I want to get him

so that when he breaks someone down off the dribble, I can call it the …..(wait for it)......”Hinrich Manuever”

"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein

by 92wastheyear on May 23, 2008 7:07 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

there is a 'Hinrich Manuever'

it’s when Kirk dribbles baseline to the goal, doesn’t even look at the rim, and keeps dribbling all the way around, curling to the elbow.

This is usually accompanied by a front-rimmed jump shot. But not always.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 24, 2008 10:35 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That sounds like doing the Drazen

I remember Drazen Petrovic would do this as a young Blazer, and me and my friends would re-enact it with much hilarity ensuing.

Mortimer

by Mortimer on May 25, 2008 2:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol reminds me of the new Interpol album

Both were rather underachieving :(

KP: You know Mike Rice, Mike Barret you've both been very valuable to us this season. But I'd still trade you both for a couple of 2nd round draft picks.

by Dheepan on May 25, 2008 5:40 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like that, the Hinrich Manuever

I could get used to hearin that said if he was in a Blazers uni. My only problem with pursuing him is he has a huge contract and we would have to give too much up to get him. I love his style of play, he seems to be a more offensively gifted Steve Blake to me, but i dunno if hes worth all the stuff ive seen us havin to give up

by Gregory Roy Aldridge on May 24, 2008 10:27 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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