Harris or Calderon
by TubbaDubba on May 13, 2008 12:00 PM PDT
119 comments
I know there's been endless debate about possible point guards on this site and Harris and Calderon have been at the front of that debate.
What we've been arguing on a recent post is who is more coveted between the two among GM's and fans on this site.
You be the GM.
Very simply, if we were going to aquire one of these guys this offseason, and it cost the same to get them, who would you choose?
Settle the debate, what is the popular opinion?
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Harris
He’s the better defender and the better penetrator. Calderon is the better passer and shooter, but I think we need Harris’ strengths more.
Boomshakalaka
by jksnake99 on May 13, 2008 12:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I see Harris as a better fit for our team
They both need the ball to be most effective, but so does Brandon. Harris is the better defender and will be able to drive and dish to our shooters.
If it fills a need, if it fills a rebuilding situation. And my goal is to fill and rebuild and I am not going to be shortsighted.
- Isiah Thomas
by JTDuck22 on May 13, 2008 12:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Harris played in the backcourt with Jason Terry
He can play just fine without the ball.
I’d love to get Conley too.
by BlazerD on May 14, 2008 1:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didnt Terry
get moved to second unit because he did not play well with Harris?
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
by jonestr on May 14, 2008 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keep Oden/LMA out of foul trouble!
Get a good PG defender!
Yay Harris Yay Harris! He’s only 25, while ol’ man Calderon is picking up his social security checks at the ripe age of 27. Plus Calderon has had only one good season, while Harris has had as many good seasons as he’s been in the NBA! I don’t care what they are listed at, Harris is bigger than Calderon. It’s science.
We GOT an amazing playmaker in Roy. Calderon isn’t better than Roy at that. Why not get a decent shooting, GREAT defending, ultra fast athletic PG with a good attitude and able to penetrate on anyone better than Jack?
We won’t need Harris to be our shooter, and he CAN hit the shot just fine. His defense, length, speed, fastbreaking, and athletic ability is exactly what we are missing.
Harris over Calderon, ‘08.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on May 13, 2008 12:25 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Wow
we Harris fans seem to be a vocal minority. Let’s here some arguments from Senor Calderon’s supporters!
Boomshakalaka
by jksnake99 on May 13, 2008 12:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think our arguments have silenced them
If it fills a need, if it fills a rebuilding situation. And my goal is to fill and rebuild and I am not going to be shortsighted.
- Isiah Thomas
by JTDuck22 on May 13, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm
Calderon is the better player…Harris will fill our holes a little better. Who will be the better fit? Kinda hard to say, but I’ll lean towards Calderon.
by Philthyanimal on May 13, 2008 1:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Neither one will be a blazer
Guaranteed. Both of those guys were potentially on the trading block this winter, and KP could not pry either of them loose. Now Toronto is committing to Calderon and New Jersey is building around Harris. KP will have to be pretty creative to come up with a veteran point guard better than Steve Blake (a great move by the way). He may feel that with Oden and Rudy + the further development of Roy, Alderidge, etc. he can live for the time being with the point guards the Blazers currently have and maybe add a rookie like Westbrook.
by Spencer on May 13, 2008 1:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep, Matt Carroll is the answer
I’d trade Rudy, Sergio, Jack, Blake, and Frye for him.
"Reality is for people who can't handle Blazers Edge." - MiledAnimal
by tominhawaii on May 13, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Toronto or New Jersey can both be motivated... Especially New Jersey
If you haven’t heard the long-time rumors of LeBron James planning a move to the “Nets” read this article: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-lebronjayz022508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
If this is the case, the Nets franchise as it sits now is and will be ready for total upheaval. Stock-pilling picks, euro-prospects and young talent all are in the best interest of truly building around LeBron James. The have FC Sean Williams, FC Josh Boone, FC Nenad Kristic and PG Marcus Williams all under age 24.
What New Jersey has now…
2008: 1st Round Pick of New Jersey & 1st Round Pick from Dallas
2009: 1st Round Pick of New Jesery
2010: 1st Round Pick of New Jersey & 1st Round Pick of Dallas
If they were to be able to leverage Harris (or Kidd in retrospect) to get two additional first round picks and two very solid young role players like PG Jarrett Jack and FC Channing Frye, along with a grip of 2nd round picks they could use to start finding international prospects to add into the mix, I could see New Jersey pulling the trigger.
Would Harris be worth: J.Jack, C.Frye, P.Kopponen, & Portland Picks 2008 first round pick (#13), 2008 2nd round pick (#36 & #55), 2009 2nd Round pick and 2010 1st round pick (totaling TWO 1st’s and THREE 2nd’s plus 3 players)?
What New Jersey would have:
2008: 1st Round Pick (Portland #13),1st Round Pick (New Jersey #9)&1st Round Pick (Dallas#21), plus 3 total 2nd round selections in 2008
2009: 1st Round Pick of New Jesery, plus (2) 2nd round picks
2010: 1st Round Pick of New Jersey, 1st Round Pick of Dallas, 1st Round Pick of Portland, plus 2nd.
Yes, SEVEN first rounders in the next three years and SIX 2nd rounders, plus adding 2 players and a prospect. Think of all the damage Portland has done with Multiple draft picks over the course of back-to back season’s. Plus, Harris being gone would likely help out their draft picks being lower in the lottery.
This Brooklyn team could be the below players plus those 7-1sts and 6-2nds sprikled in:
PG: Marcus Williams/Jarrett Jack/P.Koponen
SG:
SF: LeBron James/
PF: Channing Frye/
FC: Sean Williams/Josh Boone
If I was Jersey/Brooklyn owners I’d do it. I would do it if I was LeBron too… His deal with Nike ($100M, will double if he moves to a New York market!!!). Plus, the team the Cavs have around him is kinda old.
by Portland Dynasty on May 14, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few adjustments
I’d pull the 2010 1st round pick out ot that proposal, and substitute Sergio for Koponen.
If Pritch can “slap” Harris away from NJ without having to sacrifice Webster or Outlaw it would be a coup.
by two4larue on May 14, 2008 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harris
Defense, speed. I’m also not sure that Calderon would want to play off Brandon Roy.
by ranma on May 13, 2008 2:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I just have to add
That anyone who votes against Devin Harris is racist.
Calderon is good, and I could see someone thinking we are overrating Harris with how much we build him up around here, but I don’t know how someone could watch both players and think Calderon is a better player or a better fit. Surround Harris with that many shooters (who CAN’T shoot on the Raptors?) and he’ll get gaudy assist numbers too. Put him in a team offense that isn’t predicated on one-on-one play like in Dallas and he’d get more than 5 assists a game. Not to act like a know it all, because I am not an expert on these two players, but I watched a LOT of Raptors games and I watched Harris even more after the Nets trade.
Harris is a better player and a better fit. Calderon is a much better spot up shooter, and obviously has a crazy A/TO ratio. But like Arenas said, so did Kevin Ollie. Calderon benefits from having so many shooters, and he would likely have the same situation here in Portland… but so would Harris, and Harris is eons quicker and better equipped to take on the Derons and Pauls of the West.
I think both players are available for the right price, and I am not convinced Toronto is going to make Calderon the nicely paid starter over TJ Ford (like some suggest). They SHOULD do that, but if they can’t move TJ Ford they will have a tough time doing so.
Point is, I like Calderon a lot. I like Harris more, and if you disagree you must be a virulent racist who wishes Hitler won World War 2. I think it is a logical assumption on my part.
A Harris/Roy/Fernandez backcourt would be a thing of beauty.
I also believe it won’t be the end of the world if we don’t ‘upgrade’ our PG position, and see what happens. It might be like last summer, when we NEEDED a better SF. We don’t worry so much about that now (I know some do, but not like last summer when everyone wanted Rashard Lewis).
Mortimer
by Mortimer on May 13, 2008 2:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Heil Heil
Of those powders these muds went out.
by amlmart1 on May 13, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want to go on record as someone who hates Hitler
That jerk ruined the coolest mustache for everyone. Why couldn’t he just grow a big ole’ bushy mustache? Those are lame!
"Reality is for people who can't handle Blazers Edge." - MiledAnimal
by tominhawaii on May 13, 2008 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
mustaches are sooo awesome!
Girls use them as handle bars and guys just look so cool! Even the small ones remind girls of fuzzy caterpillars and girls think those are cool.
Tom, you’re just dead wrong on the whole mustache controversy
Here's to being hated. Come on #1 pick!
by ratbastird on May 14, 2008 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you watch American Idol last night?
They mayor of the town that Utah-David is from had a crappy early 1990’s western shirt on and a mustache that stuck out about four inches from each cheek.
"Reality is for people who can't handle Blazers Edge." - MiledAnimal
by tominhawaii on May 14, 2008 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He ruined the name Adolph
also.
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 14, 2008 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Adolf Harnack beat him to the punch.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
by T Darkstar on May 14, 2008 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya
i agree that we dont need to upgrade the PG spot this year. it’d be nice but its not a big deal if we dont. The point about Jose is fair that he has a ton of shooters, but even then TJ ford cant produce the numbers Jose can.
by Philthyanimal on May 13, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have been echoing your point about Calderon's
assist numbers as well. If you watch him play, he passes the ball around the perimeter or drives and kicks to some of the best shooters in the NBA including Jason Kopono….it’s pretty easy to get gaudy assist numbers with those shooters. I also have been urging the people to watch Calderon play who thinks he’s the best thing since sliced bread. I had one guy arguing with me that Calderon was as good a point guard as Steve Nash…to which I replied, “have you actually watched Nash and Calderon play?” To which he responded “well if you look at their per 48 minutes numbers, they’re close.” I say folks use your eyes! Actually, see how the players you are evaluating are impacting the flow of the game. Ask yourselves how this guy would fit in with the Blazers. If you watch both Calderon and Harris play, it’s pretty obvious that Devon Harris brings an element we lack right now at the point guard spot which is athleticism, ability to lead and FINISH the break, and tough defense. Calderon brings much of the same as Steve Blake, careful with the ball, good perimeter shooting, and savy player.
by JasonT on May 13, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the end of the day...
The game is about scoring more points than the other team. Calderon helps you do that more than Harris will.
by tingeyga on May 13, 2008 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you're basing your opinion on what?
by JasonT on May 13, 2008 11:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wins Produced Per 48 Minutes
Calderon had the 4th most Wins Produced by a PG and 12th in the NBA last season, ranking just ahead of Chauncey Billups.
Harris finished with the 15th most Wins Produced by a PG and 88th in the NBA last season, ranking behind players such as Antonio Daniels and Maurice Williams
Full chart for the top 15 PGs:
http://www.wagesofwins.com/15PG0708.html
by tingeyga on May 13, 2008 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wins Produced is useless
It ignores the possibility of diminishing returns and doesn’t correlate very strongly with adjusted +/- data.
If you want to get an idea of how much each player helps hos team score more points that the other team, Adjusted +/- is a good way to go. Its a very “noisy” stat, even with a full year’s worth of data, so you have to be careful not to read too much into it if the differences aren’t very big.
That said, Harris had an adjusted +/- of +7.44 (standard error 4.16) this year, while Calderon had an adjusted +/- of -5.47 (standard error 6.08). Thats a big enough difference that we can be almost 90% sure that Harris helped his team win more that Calderon did.
by trk on May 14, 2008 1:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
Your critique of Wins Produced ignoring diminishing returns is valid. However if you look at the Wins Produced per 48 minutes (which tries to correct that problem), the gap between Calderon and Harris becomes even wider.
As for the findings of the adjusted +/, I think that a grain of salt needs to be taken when looking at these numbers, as here are the adjusted +/ of a few guards that I found suprising:
- Chris Paul: .06 (std error 6.36)
Brandon Roy: .90 (std error 4.66)
- Monta Ellis: -0.11 (std error 4.24)
It seems that statistics based on box scores love Calderon (PER, WP48, etc.) while statistics based on other measures lean toward Harris
by tingeyga on May 14, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How in the world do they come up with those numbers?
by JasonT on May 14, 2008 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wins Produced Calculation
Is by no means a simple matter, but if you wish to go into the nitty gritty the method is described here:
http://www.wagesofwins.com/CalculatingWinsProduced.html
by tingeyga on May 14, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You had me until you started with the "it's easy to get assists when you play with blah blah blah"
Ew. If you want to judge them on their merits and you find Harris better that’s fine. But don’t diminish Calderon’s playmaking ability like that – it’s completely misleading and inaccurate.
by leeroyjenkins on May 19, 2008 7:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank goodness.
Is anyone sad that we did not get Rashard Lewis? We may likewise be just as glad next season to not have Calderon or Harris. Either that, or we’ll be kicking ourselves.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
by T Darkstar on May 13, 2008 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't decide
I mean, I think Calderon and Harris are better than Rashard, and offer things more important to our team, but I can’t decide if this debate is too similar to that one as well. With the young guys we got, it’s hard to say. Perhaps Jack suddenly stops jumping to pass and his ankles heal enough for him to guard good PGs. Maybe Sergio works out that kink and becomes an adequate shooter. Who can say? I doubt even KP could say. You can only hope and trust the guys to work to improve…
Last year, we did have Outlaw and Marty, who most thought would improve and could possibly be the answer at SF. This year, we’re either thinking Blake will be ‘good enough’, or hoping Jack will solve a lot of his inner turmoil and addiction to turnovers. Sergio could make the jump eventually, but to count on it would likely be folly.
Is this much ado about nuthin’?
I can’t decide. I think it’s different. Or is it..?!
Hmmm… Mortimer…
by Mortimer on May 13, 2008 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
too easy
Harris. I would take Hinrich over Calderon as well…
RUDY > MJ
by myemic23 on May 13, 2008 4:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow
I hope you never become a GM
by leeroyjenkins on May 14, 2008 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am with you...
I am actually a big Hinrich fan, especially if you want defense.
by The Graduate on May 14, 2008 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Numbers
I know numbers don’t mean much to Mortimer since his “science” tells him that Harris is bigger when every basketball site says otherwise. But who can argue with crazy science.
Here’s a numbers breakdown of how some of the West’s best point guards fared against the defense of one Devin Harris, and one Jose Manuel Calderon.
Paul against:
Harris 26.6 pts 45% 10.3 A 1.6 TO
Calderon 21.5 pts 51% 16 A 1 TO
Williams against:
Harris 23 pts 50% 11.6 A 2.3 TO
Calderon 21.5 pts 50% 4.5 A 2.5 TO
Parker against:
Harris 18.33 pts 39% 6A 2.33 TO
Calderon 15 pts 33% 4A 7 TO
I’ll admit that numbers don’t tell the whole story, but if you get enough of them you get a general idea. So if you are one of those guys who is hanging your hat on the “defense, defense, defense” argument, please show me something that will make me see that Devin Harris is significantly better than Calderon. In fact if anything these numbers are slightly in Calderon’s favor, and in not one of these games against top flight penetrating point guards did any Toronto big men foul out (only once did Bargnani even come close).
Here’s how they fared offensively against the West’s elite.
Harris 13.7 pts 45% 6.2 A 2.6 TO
Calderon 12.6 pts 48% 7 A 2 TO
If the numbers don’t show that Harris is significantly better defensively than Calderon then I’ll go ahead and take the guy who is a significantly better shooter from anywhere on the floor, a better passer and playmaker (per 48 one of the best in the league), and who takes care of the ball as good as anyone in the league. That’s the kind of science I go by.
And would someone please explain to Mortimer that 33% from 3 point range actually means you can’t hit the shot that well.
by TubbaDubba on May 13, 2008 4:59 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
source?
If it fills a need, if it fills a rebuilding situation. And my goal is to fill and rebuild and I am not going to be shortsighted.
- Isiah Thomas
by JTDuck22 on May 13, 2008 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I need no explanation
33% is passable from 3 point range. It’s Drexler-esque. For a guy who isn’t there to shoot 3’s, it is good.
If you really think Calderon is a BETTER or AS GOOD defender as Harris, then I leave you to your better judgement. You are seeing something that no one else in the world is not, and I envy your insight.
And if you trust what people are listed at, then Damon was pushing 6 feet tall and Barkeley was 6’8”.
I apologize that you are sensitive about a benign subject. No one is saying Calderon isn’t good. Most just don’t think he is as good a fit as Harris, or some (like me) think Harris is better. You can tell me yourself though, no one else needs to translate for me. Your writing does just fine in getting across your point and while I wasn’t debating you personally, I fully understand the scope of your argument. Numbers are your God, and what people see shouldn’t even enter into the equation. Every game is equal to each other, and Harris playing the West’s best 3-4 times a year equals Calderon playing one home and away. And, Harris’ playoff defense on Tony Parker means nothing, while Calderon’s highly visible defensive liabilities against JAMEER NELSON shan’t not enter the argument.
Why single me out though? Lots of people think Harris is better. Numbers often tell less than half the story. Roy’s numbers aren’t that great; does that make him not as important as, say, Caron Butler? Of course not. Things you see and realize watching Roy game after game tell you his value goes beyond numbers. Now, obviously, I am not saying you have not watched Calderon or Harris, but if you have not seen them much, then the numbers do little to shine light on the debate.
No need to act like a kid with parents who don’t talk to each other and are about to get a divorce and use the other kids as messenger pigeons. I read your numbers loud and clear.
Mortimer?
by Mortimer on May 13, 2008 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also
Just because the numbers here say more people like Harris (making me correct in my assessment), it doesn’t mean that is right either. Calderon could be the better fit.
The point is, I love you. Kiss me you scandalish rogue!
Smoochrtimer!
by Mortimer on May 13, 2008 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All in good fun Mortimer.
Just meant it as a little good natured ribbing, my appoligies if I took it too far. I think you were kinda joking around too when you said that Caderon supporters were racists, you were just a little more obvious about it than me.
First of all I never said that Calderon is a better defender than Harris and I don’t believe that he is. My point was that the numbers in those games against some of the better PG’s we will regularily face don’t show Calderon as a glaring defensive deficiency, and they don’t show Harris as a lock down defender. What it shows is that if Harris is that much better of a defender than Calderon it certainly didn’t display itself in the performances of these three elite PG’s. They fared no better against Calderon then they did against Harris.
I also said numbers don’t tell the whole story, they can however give a general idea. I went through the box scores of Harris and Calderon’s games against these three PG’s because I wanted to see how much of a diference his defense made with the only resourse I currently have available, boxscores. Obviously, they don’t always match up against each other throughout the course of a game, Harris did have three more games against these three then did Calderon, and Calderon didn’t always play as many minutes as Harris because of splitting time with Ford.
But I do feel that I took a sampling of enough games that the deficiencies in the process do not tend to favor one player over another to a large degree. Feel free to disagree.
As far as Calderon’s size, I realize that players heits and weights are’nt always acurate. But 25 lbs is a lot to be off, and that would only make them the same weight. You might be able to convince me that they are roughly the same size, but to say Harris is bigger just seems like a substantial stretch. He is pretty skinny after all.
Since you said something nice about Calderon, I’ll say something nice about Harris. I like him. I’d be thrilled if he came to the blazers. But I’d only take him over Calderon if his 3 point percentage were 8-10 points higher. Thats the deal breaker for me.
by TubbaDubba on May 13, 2008 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll never forgive, never forget
Sorry, I read it as you being mad/annoyed with me. I just wanna be buddies.
Like I said, I like Calderon and think he’s great. I liked watching him run the Raptors. He is a big game player too, from his success with the Spanish team. I even like his gang sign he does when he hits a 3 point basket-shot. I’m even kinda glad he did so poorly in the playoffs, because it could possibly give Toronto second thoughts about moving TJ Ford for pennies on the dollar, and doing their best to get the most for Caldy. I can’t remember with Raptor media blog it was from, but I even remember reading some grumbling from the Raptors camp about Calderon’s poor playoff performance against so-so competition and that maybe he isn’t a big game player (perhaps a bargaining ploy). I hope that was true, cuz’ it’d be asinine on their part. So, my points aren’t anti-Calderon, as he’d be a great improvement. Reasonable people can easily disagree, and I just think Harris fits us better. Plus, he kinda looks like Maya Rudolph and I liked her on SNL.
All of this notwithstanding, I’m furious with you and this fall out of our longstanding friendship is my own personal 9/11.
No one can stop the Chris Pauls or Greg Odens or Deron Williams, so we want whoever can slow them down a lil’, or at least play intelligently. If we go with Calderon, or the more dramatic Roy/Fernandez guard lineup eventually, it’ll require the whole team to play together on defense to handle Paul, and the one on one defense possibly won’t be AS important—we’ll just want someone capable and able to funnel the enemy to their weak spots.
Now, when I say Calderon is a bad defender, it isn’t the same way as saying Z-Bo is a bad defender… Calderon is just out athleticized at the PG spot; he certainly TRIES though and has the reputation of being a smart player. I’d just rather have a guy who is a good playmaker, quick as biscuits, and equals the athleticism of the best PGs. I think all of that is much more important than 3-point shooting.
Harris isn’t a bad shooter, like Jason Kidd. He doesn’t throw up bricks, he just doesn’t shoot the 3 that much—but he can hit it. They won’t be going under the screen on him. I agree that we want a good shooter to surround Roy’s playmaking, but I don’t think 33% is a liability. That’s average and fine, and all the other benefits we get are more important (to me) than shooting the 3.
Hopefully, the rumor about the Nets GM Rod Thorn loving Jack was true… even though Kiki is the GM for the Nets now, Thorn will be an influence, right? Plus Kiki was a bad Gm for the Nuggets, so we could maybe Pritch-slap him around a bit just for fun.
Mortimer, friend to all.
by Mortimer on May 13, 2008 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Complimentary point guards
“25 lbs is a lot to be off, and that would only make them the same weight. You might be able to convince me that they are roughly the same size, but to say Harris is bigger just seems like a substantial stretch. He is pretty skinny after all.”
If you’re concerned that Harris would be posted up by larger point guards, remember, Blake would be Devin’s (hypothetical) backup
by two4larue on May 14, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not concerned
I never said I was concerned about Harris’s size, I was simply addressing the assertation above that Harris is bigger than Calderon. They both have good size for PG, and Blake is the same size as Harris so I don’t know how Blake being his backup makes a difference.
by TubbaDubba on May 14, 2008 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As the stats guys always say
kind of apologetically when they talk about their all defense picks, there are no good statistical gauges for individual defensive play in the NBA. You can look at stuff like adjusted +/- and take into consideration the full panoply of defensive stats (rebounding/steals/blocks) but those only take you so far. Guys like Bowen, Prince, and Battier don’t show up on steals/blocks leaderboards but they’re the best wing defenders in the game.
So you kind of just have to rely on the evidence in front of your face.
And yeah, by the measure of watching the games, it’s obvious that Harris is significantly better defensively than Calderon. Guys like Tony Parker or CP3 are gonna get their stats against everyone, even Harris as good as he is defensively. But getting taken to town by Orlando’s back court is something else. And Harris gave Tony Parker enough fits so that he talked after the trade about how happy he was that they were sending him to the Eastern Conference, which is a pretty nice sign of respect by a star PG for a non-star role player.
by howlingfantods on May 14, 2008 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, defensive ability is difficult to quantify
But I think it’s safe to say that if D Will drops 41 on you and you are the guy primarily responsible for guarding him, then you didn’t do a very good job defensively on him that game. Good defenders should cause their opponents to score less and shoot a worse percentage than their average, not necessarily on any given night, but certainly when averaged over time.
by TubbaDubba on May 14, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
D Will can do that anytime
Part of our problem this past season was that the non-star PGs were killing us also. Felton, Nate Robinson, Earl Watson, etc. Like others have pointed out, you just hope to make things tougher for the Pauls and Derons of the world, but not only didn’t we have a chance against them we couldn’t stop the mediocre of the PGs. If they were somewhat quick, they killed us.
Calderon doesn’t fix that. Harris likely would. He has defended quick PGs as good as anyone has, and won’t get abused by the non-stars like Blake and Jack have.
Drexler was all-defense a bunch of times, and Jordan still scored 30+ on him. Doesn’t mean he’s a bad or average defender; the best defense can’t stop the best offense, ever. All it can do is make the offense WORK for their shots. Harris makes people work more than Calderon could just because of the athleticism gap.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on May 14, 2008 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was replying to your comment from above
“Harris is eons quicker and better equipped to take on the Derons and Pauls of the West.”
You brought them up, I was just responding to it.
We also had centers, power forward, small forwards, and shooting guards that had good games against us, not just point guards. I think the hysteria about needing a better defensive point guard is overrated. Especially since we actually held Paul and Williams well below their averages when they played us, unlike Harris and Calderon’s teams. And again, it’s gonna be a lot harder for those quick PG’s to drive the lane and score next year because instead of uncontested layups they’ll be shooting teardrop floaters over the outstretched arms of one G.O.
Paul against Blazers – 16.5 pts 9 Assists 3.6 TO
DWill against Blazers – 15.75 pts 8.5 Assists 3.25 TO
Now how do we stop David West from tearing us up?
by TubbaDubba on May 14, 2008 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, sometimes guys just get hot
and there’s not much you can do.
I haven’t looked at the box scores you seem to be looking at but it is true that Devin does have trouble against the bigger pgs, guys like Deron and Baron.
Offense beats defense in this league most times. Best you can do is hope to take away some of the things the opponent likes to do best. There’s no “stopping” great offensive players—there’s just taking away some of the things their team likes to do to try to get wins despite that player’s great offense. Jordan always got his points against the bad boy pistons, but they won more of their series (before the team fell apart) because they made him earn every one of his points.
Sometimes what you need to do to get a win is to make one guy the scorer—did the jazz have a bad game 4 against Kobe when he went off for 33 10 and 8, but they won the game in OT? No, suckering Kobe into going all one on five, teen-wolf style is one of the keys to beating the lakers, but Ronnie Brewer might be considered by casual fans to have done a bad job for giving up 33.
Or San Antone in years past always tried to play steve nash to be the scorer and reduce the number of playmaking opportunities for his teammates. Same thing that they’re trying to do (and only succeeding at home) against CP3.
by howlingfantods on May 14, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Devin does have trouble against the bigger pgs, guys like Deron and Baron.
As I commented above, that’s where having a larger defender like Steve Blake comes in. Harris and Blake’s defensive strengths would reinforce the other’s weaknesses
by two4larue on May 14, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if Nate Robinson drops 40 something..
how good of a defender/defensive team are you then
by raging WebTed on May 14, 2008 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the rest of the team
gets only 40 more combined…I would say good. If the rest of the team gets like 70….then not so good.
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 14, 2008 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I found out what I wanted to know. It appears that there are more Harris supporters on this site than there are for Calderon.
Don’t tell Mortimer though, numbers just confuse him.
by TubbaDubba on May 13, 2008 5:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
One more
This from Scout.com
“What makes Calderon such a steady point guard is his ability to quarterback the offense and control the tempo of the game, with proof of that being his 8.7 assists per game. He has an unbelievable turnover to assist ratio at 5:1. Calderon’s efficiency at his position is unmatched and the argument could be made that he is right behind Chris Paul of the Hornets as the best distributing guard in the game.
Another stellar aspect of Calderon’s game is his shooting ability. While he may not be a go to option, Calderon can easily blow by a defender and pull up for a mid-range jump shot and nail it consistently. Calderon is averaging 12 ppg. He is also very proficient from behind the arc and can knock down the open three, as he is shooting an outstanding 46% from three-point land.
The one aspect of Calderon’s game that needs some work is his defense. He isn’t the most athletic player and that hurts him at times, but Calderon is still a decent defender. He might have a hard time guarding quicker point guards, but Calderon can usually hold his own.”
by TubbaDubba on May 13, 2008 5:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
defense
I know our main thing for our next point guard is to be able to stop Paul, Parker, and Deron…but honestly these guy are good because they are unstoppable. Harris may be able to slow them down a tad, but no one can take them out of their game.
So…why pay a premium for a good defensive guard when offensive ones can be had for a lot less money? If we can get someone who is offensively as good as those guys…then it is in essence a zero sum game.
by Philthyanimal on May 13, 2008 6:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
that's quite a leap
to say Calderon is as good as Paul, Parker or Deron. I wouldn’t even argue that Harris is that good and I think Harris is better than Calderon.
by JasonT on May 13, 2008 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no way
I never said that Calderon is as good as those guys. All 3 of them are outstanding offensively and pretty good defensively as well. In Paul’s case he’s 2nd team all d.
However as far as distributing the ball goes, Jose is up with the best of them. He may not be able to create his own shot as well as Paul or Parker, but you’d be hard pressed to find many guys who can create for his teammates as well as Jose.
by Philthyanimal on May 13, 2008 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calderon's price
Calderon will prolly cost somewhere around the Hinrich/Harris range of just below 10 million a year, if we sign n’ trade for him. I don’t think the offensive PGs are any cheaper, and are usually more expensive than defensive specialists. If you get one who is good defensively AND offensively, ya do your best to snag him because most PGs don’t go both ways.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on May 13, 2008 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Videos - beyond the numbers
Here’s one of Devon Harris…all Mavericks stuff http://youtube.com/watch?v=SwFzC4-IFPE
Here’s Devon Harris’ first game with NJ http://youtube.com/watch?v=ulvVGqlPnW0
Here’s a Jose Calderon mix http://youtube.com/watch?v=_4IUsQg8zJU
Just for fun…here’s a Sergio Rodriguez mix (some international and NBA) http://youtube.com/watch?v=UrnhlFcrLn0
More Sergio NBA video http://youtube.com/watch?v=p8X-NuDN_jY
Who fits the bill best for us?
by JasonT on May 13, 2008 7:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If we get Calderon,
we better get Westbrook in hopes that he blossoms into a upper echelon point guard and then clear out Sergio and Jack. In the meantime Calderon can hold the fort at pg while Westbrook develops.
by JasonT on May 13, 2008 9:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Devin Harris can dunk, but I've never seen Calderon do it in a game.
I like dunks
If it fills a need, if it fills a rebuilding situation. And my goal is to fill and rebuild and I am not going to be shortsighted.
- Isiah Thomas
by JTDuck22 on May 13, 2008 9:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like 'em by Luke Jackson
"Reality is for people who can't handle Blazers Edge." - MiledAnimal
by tominhawaii on May 13, 2008 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Finally someone GETS IT
Devin Harris can dunk in the halfcourt even, we would all like that! With Oden and LMA and Webster and (sometimes)Roy and Trout and Harris and Rudy, we’d have the jamminest jam squad ever in the history of Portland. We’d rival Clyde and Jerome even!
Dunks make everyone happy, and all of the Calderon boosters are so quick to dismiss PG-dunks as a vital component of a successful PG for the team.
I read a story that I just made up that said Calderon can’t even touch net. And we want HIM to be OUR point GUARD?! Damon couldn’t dunk either, and I’ve had ENOUGH of that noise. More crunk dunks that silence the punks!
One time I saw Devin Harris dunk it SO HARD that these one kids who were at the game for free cause they were orphans with bad diseases all got CURED and ADOPTED at the same time, and the dunk was a 10 point dunk and WON THE GAME. That’s a winner, folks, and you can’t quantify that… except with VICTORIES.
Now on the flipmode side, one game Calderon forced a couple of kids with AIDs to give up their seats so some of his entourages’ FRIENDS (not even Calderon’s friends) could have two seats each to themselves, and all game they made lewd comments and numerous illegal drug references. It was SHAMEFUL. Afterwards the press asked Calderon why he did such a vile deed, and he just sneered that sneer of his and flashed his gang sign, before throwing his wet moldy towel in a female journalists face and yelling obscenities that onlookers could only describe as “scarily Spanish sounding”. Then he grabbed TJ Ford roughlike around the neck and actually killed him for a few minutes! Luckily, Devin Harris was there to help out because he heard there were kids in trouble (he always gives back) and he was able to rescuscitate TJ Ford all by himself. The press was furious scribbling and trying to capture the action, but Harris convinced them all that he didn’t want this story to ever see the light of day, because that’s not the point of being a good person. He then took them all out to Baskin Robbins - his treat even - while Calderon was seen helping fund terrorists. Culture? If our good Culture is a disease, Calderon is the cure.
People always point out point differential, wins earned, all those new agey stats that are just a bunch of HOOEY with their baggy pants and raps music and Nintendos. The REAL STAT that leads to championships is DUNK DIFFERENTIAL, and if we win that we win the whole thing.
Calderon tips badly too. Harris always give 18%, 22% for good service. Really, this shouldn’t even be up for debate.
But I like Calderon too. What does that say about me, I miss the bad ol’ days I guess.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on May 14, 2008 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best Calderon Dunk 10 seconds on YouTube could reveal
by tingeyga on May 14, 2008 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Euroleague?
please. Anyone could dunk in the euroleage. They don’t play defense there and all the big men weigh like 200 pounds. Pshh… Euroleague
If it fills a need, if it fills a rebuilding situation. And my goal is to fill and rebuild and I am not going to be shortsighted.
- Isiah Thomas
by JTDuck22 on May 14, 2008 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey
I think you offended me.
"Reality is for people who can't handle Blazers Edge." - MiledAnimal
by tominhawaii on May 14, 2008 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a soap opera reading everyones thoughts
calderon is better…smarter, makes others better and all he wants is to win
starting pg on spains world champ team….really though the one player i want from spain that we don’t already have is jorge garbajosa (spelling oops). we could use a scrappy player like that,,,,wait calderon plays like that too…what’s up with all the dharris love…he’s fast, can get to the rim, been to a finals…ummm nevermind…still calderon is a better pg and toronto isn’t letting him go…someone will take TJ Ford,,,toronto does need an athletic Small forward…Outlaw???
uwe blab
by midget on May 14, 2008 2:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Who would Jorge play over?
Also, is he healed from his injury? He didn’t really play for Toronto this season because of it (or because of their war with all of Spain).
Maybe Jorge plays over Frye? Certainly not over Trout. He wouldn’t start. I think it’s funny that some Raptor fans call him “Garbage-josa”. That’ll teach him to get injured!
I’d hate to lose Outlaw and I can’t picture him in another uniform, but yeah, Toronto could use a athletic small forward who is good, unlike overrated Jamario. Only problem is, I hope they don’t know how bad Trout is at defense, because they need a defender at that spot too. Anthony Parker gets killed by all the best wings, even with his defensive rep.
Someone would take TJ Ford, but Toronto will get pennies on the dollar. Perhaps they’ll prefer to get a GOOD deal for Calderon as opposed to giving away Ford, which is all they could likely do with his lack of healthiness. Also, there is talk that they don’t wanna go over the luxury threshhold, which I THINK paying Calderon would do—and if they trade Ford, they gotta take back equal salary plus pay Calderon buckoo bucks and still are in luxury tax land. I could be mistaken though.
I think both Harris and Calderon are available for the right price, for better or worse.
KP got some tough decisions this summer.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on May 14, 2008 2:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calderon and it's not close
I’m not sure why you guys want to add another guy who needs the ball to be effective but I’d rather have a steady playmaker who will feed the ball to Oden, Roy, and LMA and won’t turn it over.
by leeroyjenkins on May 14, 2008 8:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He played with Dirk and Terry in Dallas and I seem to remember he did ok
If it fills a need, if it fills a rebuilding situation. And my goal is to fill and rebuild and I am not going to be shortsighted.
- Isiah Thomas
by JTDuck22 on May 14, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who, Harris?
Harris played without the ball his whole career in Dallas. They do one on one Dirk-ball. Until he got to the Nets, he wasn’t dribbling all around and needing the ball…
And as for Myemic liking Hinrich over Calderon, I’m assuming it is because of Hinrich’s defense. He was a NBA 2nd team all-defense a season or two ago, and this past season may have just been a fluke. If you can have a defender who can shoot the three and is a good size for PG, then that’s good, right?
Personally, I’d only be convinced Hinrich will have a bounce back year if KP trades for him. He can be gotten for a lot cheaper than a year ago, and cheaper than Harris or Calderon could be got. And didn’t Hinrich go to Kansas? Uh ohh…. KP has a Jayhawk in his trousers for Hinrich maybe!!
Preferring Calderon is fine, but saying it isn’t close is curious. To me, anywho.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on May 14, 2008 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also like Heinrich
And I wouldn’t take him over Harris, but if he can shoot three’s like he did last year (41.5%) as opposed to this year (35%), then he might actually be the best fit of all three (not the best player, the best fit) because of his ability to mix the defense and the shooting maybe better than Harris or Calderon.
The reason I’m so big on our PG to be able to shoot the three is because we will have three players on our team next year that could potentially be drawing double teams in Roy, Alderidge, and Oden. When the double teams come the ball gets kicked out to open shooters and they have to be able to knock down that shot consistently. How well did that work for Blake this year when playing off of Roy. The reason Drexler, and even Roy this year, were effective without a great three point shot is because they were the ones getting double teamed, not the ones spotting up for open three’s. Drexler kicked out to guys like Porter, and Roy to Blake/Jones/Webster. If you don’t hit that open shot at a high percentage, they’ll let you shoot it and continue to double team until you prove you can hit it. If you’re able to knock it down then they have to decide whether to commit to the double team and leave a shooter uncovered, or stay with the shooters and let your star operate one on one. That’s when you have the defense where you want it.
The cutoff for a good three point shooter seems to me to be around that 40% mark. The difference between Calderon (42.9%) and Harris (33.5%) was greater this year than the difference between Blake (40.6%) and Jack (34.2%). Blake was a good three point shooter this year, Jack was not. Calderon shot better than Blake, Harris shot worse than Jack (ouch!).
I think what we’ve been saying is that you like Harris because of his defense primarily, and his three point shooting is good enough that it won’t hurt us, while I like Calderon because of his shooting primarily, and his defense is good enough that it won’t hurt us.
We finished eighth in the league in opponents FG % and should be even better this year with the addition of Oden. We finished tied for twentieth in FG% ourselves, and that should improve next year as well. I just think we have more room to grow offensively and surrounding our stars with shooters is the way to go.
by TubbaDubba on May 14, 2008 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll be better defensively
And we might not need a great defender at the PG spot because of Oden, LMA, and a hopefully improved team defense. You’re right. But, we did get killed by very average PGs all season and not having a decent defender at PG only makes us breakdown defensively and will possibly get Oden and LMA in foul trouble too often. It might not work out that way, but it’s more than likely to be that way for next season while Oden and LMA continue to learn how to deal with covering for the perimeter defenders. If we’re lucky, the problem will go away and the concerns are moot.
Harris definitely can’t shoot the 3 as good as Calderon can, but Calderon is a worse defender than Harris is a 3 point shooter—and 3 point shooting is only a small part of the offense, while defense is half the dang game. Calderon will definitely help us on the offensive end, but so would Harris, and we wouldn’t have to worry about mediocre PGs like Jameer Nelson killing us. Perhaps everything will fix itself because of Oden’s presence, but I think getting a strong defender is better than another 3 point shooter.
Having a PG capable of hitting the 3 is important for a team with Roy/LMA/Oden, so you’re on the money with that. I might be easy to please, but 33% isn’t that bad and he’s great offensively otherwise (Harris, that is). If we just want a spot up shooter for the PG spot, maybe just staying with Blake would be best because he’s a better defender than Calderon and, percentage wise, shot nearly as good as him… though he isn’t as good of a passer or playmaker. He’d be a lot cheaper and we wouldn’t have to give up Outlaw to get him, though.
I wish Harris had played with a dominant big before, so we could see if he’s good at the drive-the-lane-throw-a-quick-lob-pass like Paul does to Chandler. If Roy can do that, he’ll average 8 assists a game just penetrating and lobbing to Oden.
Last season, we needed people who can hit the 3. This year, we were a top 3 point shooting team and found we need perimeter defense. Having an average 3 point shooter at the PG spot who is great otherwise wouldn’t be a real detriment, especially with how much he’d help defensively. His defense would get us more possessions, his fastbreaks easier baskets, his penetration helping Roy with playmaking duties.
Surrounding our core with 3 point shooters is very important, but it can’t be the top priority on a team with Webster, Trout, Jones, Blake, and maybe someday LMA. We can hit that shot now. We gotta improve defensively.
And except for 3 point shooting, Harris seems better than Calderon in other categories. His assist numbers definitely ain’t the same, but watching his Nets games really surprised me with how creative and sharp his passes were. Because that isn’t great evidence, I’ll say Calderon can be considered the better passer too. However, Harris is at least a good, strong passer who can create just like Calderon can. If 3 point shooting is his only semi-liability, I gotta say Harris fits better.
If we can somehow steal Hinrich away from the Bulls, he really could have a big bounceback. The idea intrigues me the more I dwell upon it. Was this past year a Kaman-esque fluke? Or a sign of things to come after his big payday? Did the Bulls struggles and Skiles coaching damage Hinrich permanently? Does he just need a new scenery like Chandler did? Tough questions, and makes me glad we got a smart wise always-right dude like KP in charge.
The Hinrich scenario is all the more intriguing because his value is so much lower than a year ago, and the Bulls might want to get out of his contract as well. Perhaps we’ll know more about how viable an option this is once the Bulls land a coach… maybe the new coach will inspire Hinrich again and give the Bulls organization renewed confidence in his abilities.
Why isn’t it November yet? The offseason is for CHUMPS.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on May 14, 2008 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read Oblomov, a russian novel, last week.
Only 1100 pages. Not too much.
Of those powders these muds went out.
by amlmart1 on May 14, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your right
1100 pages is nothing….compared to one of Mort’s posts
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 14, 2008 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me about it
I’ll have just a few minutes to poke around, so I’ll open a thread with just two comments and realize it’s a Mortimer comment that will needs 10 minutes to read. He must be the fastest typist on the planet.
"Reality is for people who can't handle Blazers Edge." - MiledAnimal
by tominhawaii on May 14, 2008 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me about it
I am such alousy typist that when I am done (after bout a half hour or so) I have usually forgotten a word and it looks like I was schooled in Alabamy or somethin’.
oops…sorry bout that Alabamy crack
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 14, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I sorry
I do type really fast, as long as its my own writing and I’m not, like, transcribing someone else’s work. I don’t ever do that anyways, so it ain’t a problem. I can type and type and then I preview and see that I typed way too much. To edit it down would take too much time, so I let it sit for the whole world to not read because it’s too long.
Also, I don’t pre-plan my comments, so they take shape as I go. I could probably be a lot more concise, but I’m here enough already, dig? I can’t invest the time to improve my posting craft and making it more readable. I apologize, my friend. :-(
Keep in mind, if you see a big long post by me, chances are there isn’t any real reason to read it. It sez “Me like Blazers” if you put the post in concentrated form.
m0r71m3r
by Mortimer on May 14, 2008 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For what it is worth
I was jus joshin’ anyhow. I actually like yer posts. It just seemed the right time for a wise a$$ remark
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 14, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
He just tricks us. In the morning, I’ll have a few minutes before I have to leave for work and I’ll check a post I already read. And their will be Mortimer’s dissertation on Harris. It’s always interesting though. I wish I still had Hansbrough to talk about. I want to carry a torch for someone.
"Reality is for people who can't handle Blazers Edge." - MiledAnimal
by tominhawaii on May 14, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you jus' playin' yo
But I am sorry I write such long posts, because I know it ain’t necessary to get such deep thoughts such as “I like Devin Harris” expanded to 700 words.
Ehhhh what can a boy do? Such is the Mortimer!
Mortimer!
by Mortimer on May 14, 2008 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're the best
I never miss a Mortimer post.
"Reality is for people who can't handle Blazers Edge." - MiledAnimal
by tominhawaii on May 14, 2008 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It helps a lot for my English lessons.
Of those powders these muds went out.
by amlmart1 on May 14, 2008 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Philosophical differences
I think we all have the best interest of the team at heart, and we generally agree on the strengths and weaknesses of each player, we just differ on whose strengths will help us more and who’s weaknesses will hurt us more.
I hope for our sake that KP does go out and get Hinrich instead.
Then we can go get a beer and forget that this silly argument ever happened.
I can’t even remember what we were fighting about.
(Calderon rules! Harris drools!)
by TubbaDubba on May 14, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are right on that one...
It basically comes down to whether you want an offensive minded pg, or whether you want a defensive minded pg. Some(like me) feel the latter is more important and some feel the former is. Both players would likely make our team better, so there is really no wrong answer here. But there is probably a more correct answer and thats what a friendly debate is for.
Calderon is more of a half-court point guard that can get out on the break from time to time. His 3 point shooting is excellent and his defense is suspect IMO.
Harris is Speedy Gonzales on the break and is nothing special in the halfcourt as a pg, although he does penetrate and finish well. His 3 point shooting is adequate enough to keep the D honest. and his defense is about as good as you can hope for from a pg IMO.
Brandon Roy is an excellent half court pg and is not a fastbreaking pg. 3 point shooting is average and his defense is above average IMO.
With a Roy and Calderon backcourt you get two guys that are good pg’s in the halfcourt and nothing to write home about on the break. Calderon’s 3 point shooting is a plus when he is playing off of Roy, but his strengths do not revolve around playing off the ball, unless he is a spot up shooter. Their combined backcourt defense would be about average IMO.
With a Harris and Roy backcourt you get an excellent pg on the break(Harris) and an excellent pg in the halfcourt(Roy). Harris’s 3 point shooting wont hinder Roy, 33% will keep his guy from drifting too far. People who watched him in Dallas know that he is a pretty good slasher and has a good midrange game. Their combined defense would be good to great, and could very possibly develop into one of the best defensive backcourts in the league with time…
The only thing that Calderon does that compliments Roy is his 3 point shooting. Calderon can hinder our entire team on defense if he cant control his man and he can hinder Roy if he has the ball too much.
Harris compliments Roy with good defense(less Roy double teams and cover ups), fast break ability, and his familarity with playing off of Dirk and J-Ho in Dallas. Harris is just a way better fit if you ax me.
I use the same line of thinking when comparing Hinrich and Calderon. Even though I think Calderon is a better player than Hinrich, I do not think he is a better fit. Calderon’s extra talent doesnt outweigh how well Hinrich would fit our team in my humble opinion…
RUDY > MJ
by myemic23 on May 14, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two things I disagree with.
Well three, really but I’ve already said that I don’t think Calderon is as bad of a defender as some people think, not great, but not bad either. I haven’t read anything from the experts that say he’s a horrible defender either (if you find something please post it, good, bad, or other). The two phrases that stick out in my mind from what I’ve read about his D is “solid” and “decent, usually holds his own”.
But that’s not what I wanted to say.
1. Calderon always pushes the ball and is in fact very good at leading the fast break. He is not a one trick pony as you are suggesting.
2. A point guard who is not a good defender does not hinder the entire team defense. (See the San Antonio Spurs)
by TubbaDubba on May 14, 2008 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mort pretty much said it all
The only thing I would add is that Calderon can’t create his own shot, pretty much just like Blake. Harris doesn’t have that problem as he can get to the rim pretty much whenever and has a decent midrange game.
Overall, I like Calderon a lot but Harris isn’t far behind him on the offensive end and is even superior on that end in some areas like creating his own shot and playing without the ball, which is very important with Roy. On the defensive end it isn’t even close. Harris athleticism gives him his biggest advantage here, his speed and our defense behind him will allow him to get TONS of steals and he will get a lot of fast break dunks.
I want Harris and would give up a lot to get him. A three guard rotation of him, Roy, and Rudy with Blake mopping up would be ridiculous.
by BlazerD on May 14, 2008 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can create his own shot.
A quote from the article posted above.
“Calderon can easily blow by a defender and pull up for a mid-range jump shot and nail it consistently. “
by TubbaDubba on May 14, 2008 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quick question--
Is that a description of his NBA game? He can for sure hit the jumper, but I don’t recall him doing it after blowing by a defender much.
This thread is too long and I ain’t sure which article you’re referencing, so I apologize for my laziness.
Calderon makes up for the athletic gap by being wily, and I don’t think he’s a BAD defender… just too outclassed physically. Like Blake, he tries and is smart, but there are limits to where that can get ya.
But like you said, the team defense built around LMA/Oden/Pryzzle may allow for a weak-ish PG defender, like Tony Parker.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on May 14, 2008 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again I think you are underestimating him
Is he as athletic as Harris, no. But he’s not exactly Steve Blake. He is pretty quick, and he is pretty athletic. When I’ve watched him he has been a penetrating pg and he can get to and finish at the rim.
by TubbaDubba on May 15, 2008 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hollinger
These comments are from last season but again, another expert addressing Calderon’s quicks, and his defense. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion of course, but for those of you who have been harping on Jose for these things, I’m still waiting for you to produce one experts opinion to back you up. Granted, their opinions aren’t everything, but if you are right about him you’d think you could find one who agreed with you.
Here’s what Hollinger says:
“Calderon is a quick guard who has pass-first instincts but has developed a steady mid-range jumper. The slender, long-armed guard is very quick going to his right and protects the ball despite a high dribble.
Defensively, Calderon did a good job despite his lack of strength. He’s a fairly active help defender and is good at back-tapping the ball from behind. Plus, at 6-3, he’s an obstacle for many point guards to shoot over.”
I’m having trouble posting links, but you can look at his player profile on ESPN and click on the Hollinger link.
by TubbaDubba on May 15, 2008 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hollinger...
His numbers are great, but he’s a bad judge when he doesn’t got the numbers to tell him what to think. For instance, he would often claim Juan Dixon could ‘really defend’.
Calderon can get to the rim, and he can shoot as good as anyone. BUT, he doesn’t blow by defenders and then raise up for a midrange shot. That’s not what he does.
Just for future reference, I shall belittle the opinions of Chris Sheridan and John Hollinger WHEN Hollinger is going off of his own opinion and not using stats. Both guys are always so WRONG; especially Sheridan. Ugh… Sheridan…
As for Calderon’s defensive problems, ask any Raptor fan.
Lots of non-Blazer fans out there think Jarrett Jack is a strong defender. We all know differently.
Now, I’d say Calderon is a better defender than TJ Ford, even though Ford is a million times quicker. Quickness doesn’t always equal a good defender (Telfair, Sergio, etc). Calderon is a smart defender, helps out a lot, and uses his tricky Spaniard ways to gain advantage. If he had Harris’ athleticism, he’d likely be as good of a defender as Harris. He would not be any worse and maybe would be better than Steve Blake.
But, he isn’t an elite defender like Harris. I know ya ain’t arguing that, but…
This was about his ability to create his own shot, though… and I think he doesn’t do that very often. He’s a setter upper, kick the ball back out to him swisher. He can penetrate but that isn’t a strength—again, better than Blake, but not like Harris. With big man Oden and ol’ man LMA, maybe their screens will be all any PG needs to penetrate and ya don’t need a Harris slicing the defense up when ya got Roy.
As far as underestimating Calderon… I think he’s one of the best non-superstar PGs out there. He’s a great teammate, leader, would fit nicely with Rudy, can shoot as good as anyone, hits big shots, he’s great. I like him a LOT and he was even on my first ever fantasy team this season. We’re good friends. But, he ain’t perfect and he doesn’t break down defenders or have the ability to defend very well. That’s all.
Because the Raptors are on the East coast and I could easily watch their 4pm tip offs before my fiance came home and yelled at me for watching basketball, I watched a lotta Raptor games. That’s all I’m basing my opinions on, and I could be wrong that Calderon blows past his defender and shoots the mid-range jumper. Since he doesn’t JUMP when he shoots, I’d imagine that shot would get blocked (he needs space to shoot), but I 100% admit I could be wrong.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on May 15, 2008 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you hear that everyone?
Mortimer admitted he was wrong! He said:
“I 100% admit I could be wrong.”
I now retire from this thread as my worthy opponent has conceded defeat.
by TubbaDubba on May 15, 2008 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
B'OH
I can’t believe I said I was wrong, I am a fool! A DAMNED fool!
The only portion I will admit I could possibly maybe sorta perhaps from a certain point of view be wrong about is whether Calderon often dribbles past his defender and rises up for the midrange jumper. Everything else I said is spot on A+ way to go type analysis.
I proudly stand by my words. Or do I…?
Mortimer…?
by Mortimer on May 15, 2008 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I can't hear you.
As I previously stated I have retired from this thread as the victor. Your last post has fallen on deaf ears.
by TubbaDubba on May 15, 2008 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
doesn't matter
we have rudy and roy. Guard position is set.
Here's to being hated. Come on #1 pick!
by ratbastird on May 14, 2008 11:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That'd be awesome
If it turns out to be true. It’d be cool if it does. I don’t want to burden Roy with dribbling the ball up the court all day, but I love it in his hands. If Rudy is a good playmaker like he appears to be, that’d be purty sweet.
Yup, yup… purty suh-weet.
Murtamurr
by Mortimer on May 14, 2008 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats how I lean too
The only addition to the roster after Rudy and Greg will be the draft pick. No trades this summer, unless it is to get Jack out of the way.
"Reality is for people who can't handle Blazers Edge." - MiledAnimal
by tominhawaii on May 14, 2008 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calderon in Spain
To his return to Spain, Calderón has repeated in declarations to the press that he does not know if he will continue next year with Toronto and that if he finally continues, considers that he must be the first PG, changing roles with TJ Ford.
Of those powders these muds went out.
by amlmart1 on May 14, 2008 2:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
wow
is that a direct quote? I’ve always heard Calderon talked about as a team-first guy, almost to a fault. If he’s making ultimatums like that, things must be really bad in Toronto.
by abdelnaby on May 14, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont blame him
he is better than TJ Ford and deserves to be Toronto’s starter. Ford needs to man up and earn the starting spot, not just mope around until it is given back to him in order to avoid chemistry problems.
RUDY > MJ
by myemic23 on May 14, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Direct
Of those powders these muds went out.
by amlmart1 on May 14, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The most interesting:
“I would like to be starter, to aspire to everything and to be a part of a winning team. Now Toronto has the last word, but I don´t know exactly where I´m going to play. From July we will know something more. In the NBA it is not possible to speak with any team until July 1. We will not know if there are an interested team or ten. Just now the only thing that is clear is that Toronto has the last word, within quotation marks, and can match any offer”.
”...Personally it was an important year for me because my contract was finishing. And I am very satisfied for how it has gone out and because the goals we have obtained. The people were respecting me and I was comfortable in the court, though I had liked to go on to the second playoff round, to give a little jump forward. I would like to be starter and it is the most important. I have been two years with T.J. Ford, but what I do not know it is if I might be one more year because they would have to change the roles.”
Of those powders these muds went out.
by amlmart1 on May 14, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you have an article or source?
Not that I don’t believe you, I’d like to know more of what he has said.
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
by blzrfan on May 14, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both would be tough to get
From a financial point of view, Harris is a BYC player already and Calderon almost certainly would be BYC in a sign and trade. So my expectations are low for either one.
I did vote Harris because I consider him the better defensive player. But it’s a close call.
by Storyteller on May 16, 2008 7:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Roy
From a pre draft interview on draftexpress:
Reporter: Some people are saying that you may be a point, and that might be your best position. How do you see yourself?
Brandon Roy: I don’t want to say that I am going to be just a point guard, because I think I can go off the ball and score too. The best label for me would be a combo guard, I think that if you point guard next to me I can still make plays from the wing, and if you put a big-time scorer next to me I can get him the ball, get the bigs the ball. So I think that’s the best part of my game, I am not just a point or just a shooting guard, I can do both.
by nlj on May 17, 2008 9:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Looks like he knew what he was talking about.
"I never worried if there would be an earthquake or something in Oregon, but now I can do." amlmart1
by Sabonis4Ever on May 17, 2008 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I say Harris
I think he fits our team better and he’s the type of guy who can make big defensive plays or big driving bucket.
by Jason3123 on May 17, 2008 8:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So WHAT?
Is getting Harris plausible? No!
All of these comments and no one has proposed a plausible way to acquire him.
Why not say I like Chris Paul better than Harris? So what!
I’m not picking on you Jason…. just the thread.
by spencerbutte on May 19, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fantasy Land...
Harris has had many good seasons and Claderon just one? Obvoiusly none of you play fantasy b-ball. Harris hasn’t done much. He is fast, but he’s no Tony Parker. He can steal the ball, but he’s no Chris Paul. What has he done that shows he is a good point guard at all? Cause that’s what we need. He is like Monte Ellis, just no where as talented. Calderon shoots high percentages (from everywhere), and can put up big assist numbers. No one in the NBA can tally that many assists without being able to penetrate the lane and dish, so all you haters can check yourselves!
by NEP_blazers on May 19, 2008 9:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Calderon is my vote
I actually voted for Harris, but think about it. Did Dallas do anything with him on their team? No. Is Calderon capable of doing things? Just ask anyone who’s run into the Calderon-led Spanish team.
Thanks PA, KP, Nate, BRoy, LMA, GO, 'Tell, Trout, JJ's, Buffet, Blake (not Blakey), Thrilla Hundred-dolla Billa, McBob (just 'cuz you're cool), Sergio (just 'cuz you've got flash), and Raef (ummm...just 'cuz)....and Dean Demo, Maurice, Monty (You rock Monty!), Bill Bayno (good luck with your new job), Bobby, Jay, and everyone else I'm forgetting (scouts, other front office people) who made the Return of Rip City possible, including the media (Mike B., Casey, Dave, Ben). And tominhawaii. Can't forget him.
by prezofdeath on May 19, 2008 10:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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