I wish the league allowed them to play like they use to........the L's gone soft.

Who said they should start swinging?  The closest I came was saying, "If there is a fight, there's a fight" meaning that we can't let the fear of the opponent getting upset or physical or even fighting stop us from being hard-nosed ourselves.  The point is if you're going to knock around our leading scorer and take him out of the air we're willing to do the same to yours.  That also answers the "Why Kobe?" question.  Do you really think it was accidental that it was Brandon Roy Odom decided to clobber?

This is a pretty simple equation:  As soon as another team feels you will not stand up to them or foul hard when it's warranted then it's going to be open season on your guy.  We haven't experienced too much of that because frankly we haven't mattered at all to anyone for the last few years.  But if we're in the heat of a playoff race (or--God forbid--in the playoffs themselves) and another team thinks they can gain an advantage by putting Roy on the floor they're going to do it.  Brandon is going to get pulverized unless we, as a team, protect him.  As I pointed out in the example this is true in baseball.  It's true in hockey too.

There was a reason Clyde Drexler didn't get walloped every time he glided through the air.  Part of it was him being as strong as an ox (which is something our guys need to work on).  But another big part of it was Jerome Kersey and Buck Williams.  You didn't have to ask.  If you cheap-shotted Clyde or even got too rough with him they were going to have you for lunch...and they meant business.  They both established that aura early in their careers and neither had to do much afterwards except exist.  That actually kept the horseplay to a minimum, which is exactly why I'm suggesting that if another team whacks you in the nose you better be ready to whack them back.  It ends this kind of stuff.

It's not confined to that hard foul on Roy either.  Odom was shoving Lamarcus around all night last night, making a big deal of being physical.  Unless and until our guys learn to deal with that and maybe dish it back "extra physical" is all you're going to see out there.

--Dave

It actually ends it--in basketball, that is.  Basketball players aren't fighters; if someone stands up to them, they generally back down.  But as long as your team has a rep for being bully-able, you're going to get bullied.  This is a competitive game with a lot of money and pride at stake, and teams will look for and exploit any edge they can find.  

I agree completely with Dave; he didn't advocate starting a fight.  What he was saying was that the Blazers shouldn't back down out of fear of the LAKERS turning it into a fight.  If they choose that path, you have to say, "So be it."  

Maurice Lucas.  Granted he had one big scrap, but do you think anyone messed with him or any of his teammates after that?

... with Dave writing this:

"You're going to come at our guy?  We're going to kill yours."

I know this obviously wasn't meant literally, but I still don't agree with writing it.

I agree a hard foul would have been warranted, but that's all.  Odom's foul really wasn't all that bad.

Bold is my emphasis:

As I told our guys, that was a hard foul, it's part of the NBA.  One of the things I told our guys before the game, I think at times we have too much respect for opponents.  We kind of look at these guys and want them to like us.  Players don't care about that...  The bottom line is you're trying to win games. I thought that play showed that Brandon Roy is just Brandon Roy to the Lakers.  They gave up the foul so they completed that with a hard foul and that's how we have to learn to play.  You don't want to hurt anybody, but you come in there and you don't allow them to get the shot off.  I like what I saw as far as guys coming to Brandon's [defense].  I like that, I thought that was good.  One of the things we wanted to do was start something tonight and I thought they tried."

Nobody wants to see a serious fight but I think many people (Nate included) at least want to see some posturing and a fighting spirit.  Getting bullied can cause serious problems to a team's psyche and culture.

He's just a rabble rouser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRsNDzEr0aQ

Most everyone else seems to think that trying to foul someone else hard, possibly resulting in injury, because they fouled one of our players is fine.

I'd rather not stoop to that level.

  Watching that play on re-play, it was a hard, agressive play, meant to stop Roy and send a message. The L*kers are a contender and they were playing to get a playoff edge in the west. As a Blazer fan seeing Roy hit the ground hard and then roll around in pain is something you NEVER want to see.

  I also know if I was a L*ker fan, I'd just think it was good agressive play by Odom.

  In evaluating the play and the reaction I think you must realize there is a history and a speculative future. The history is a strong rivalry between LA and Portland. The History includes Odom charging into a Blazer huddle last season.

  I think there is a speculative future as well. The Lakers know The Blazers in a few years might very well be the greatest obstacle to The L*kers success.

  Given the history, and the future that exists for these two franchises, The Blazers cannot afford to let LA even think they have a toughness edge.

  If I step back from watching Brandon land awkwardly I guess I have no problem with Odoms hard foul. However, I also have no problem with Outlaw, Aldridge and The rest of The Blazers letting him know they did not appreciate it.

  Hard fouls are a reality. Brandon is going to get knocked to his rear a lot in his career, he should expect it. I'm not advocating "hurting" anyone, but conversely if Kobe made a similar drive against Pryz or Aldridge, or Oden in the future, I would hope that Kobe would expect to be knocked on his butt as well.

  I actually thought the play that Brandon sustained the groin injury was far more dirty. That was a concious decision to allow a fellow player to remain in a position that did create a significant injury.--Last Night, Odom was being a jerk from a Blazer P.O.V. but I think it was reactionary agression and not contemplated or concious desire to injure.

  It's a tough line to walk. I do know however that The Blazers cannot afford to become even slightly intimidated by The L*kers. Not for this season, or for the future.

   IMO The Blazer/L*ker rivalry doesn't get the attention or press it deserves, it's one of the best, most heated rivalries in all of sports.

On enforcers, the greatest player ever (MJ) even had one.  His name was Charles Oakley.  Not many could mess with MJ anyway, but if anyone did, Oak was gonna make 'em regret it.  

On the importance of standing up for your star player:  There's a player Roy resembles.  This player drove to the rim, taking heavy shots every time.  He even had a commercial where the message was something like, get knocked down 7 times, get up 8.  The strategy to stop this player was also foul hard, nothing easy.  That player is Dwayne Wade.  You people know what he's doing now?  Shut down for the season.  Too many injuries from being knowcked down too hard.  I don't remember him having anyone that let the other team know it wasn't ok to keep hitting Wade hard.  So that person is important.

I don't advocate fighting either, but one of my favorite moments from last night's game (I was there) was seeing Trout get in Odom's face.  And I also agree that a hard foul on Kobe wouldn't have been out of line.

There are 2 ways to react to a hard and possibly dirty foul:

1.  Dish it right back at them and send an important message: This team doesnt take that kind of #$^@.

2.  Cower like an abused puppy and hope they dont do it again.

Taking option #2 would surely turn us in to the Portland Sissy Nannies...

that it would've been just a good hard foul is Odom would've gone for the ball and just allowed his body contact to be him following BRoy to the basket. But he didn't go for the ball and chose to knock/push BRoy down with his body and arms and that's why it was a flagrant foul. I think all this would've been avoided if he just showed he was going after the ball, but he clearly wasn't. Therefore the outcome was what it was.

I prefer clean sports anytime. I want to see the athletes perform at their best, which they cannot do if they must watch their tail all the time.

The whole idea of laying the hammer on someone to send a message is a really sad commentary on our society. What it says is, "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." What about the joy of sports, of watching athletes perform at their best? What about sportsmanship -- you know, that cute little anachronistic behavior we teach our kids? Why does that suddenly fly out the window just because the other team is beating you, or because you are frustrated?

I haven't read anything about Roy's injury, and I sure hope it isn't serious, but what if a hard fall like that broke his neck? How would Odom and Phil feel about that?

Basketball is officially a non-contact sport. The rules say you cannot do what Odom did. He wasn't going after the ball, he was going after Roy. I think the league should suspend anyone for three games who gets a flagrant 1, and seven games for a flagrant 2. There's lots of boxing, wrestling, hockey, etc. for anyone looking for rough stuff.  

Yes, I'm a dreamer, but I'm also a realist. Until the league gets serious about this nonsense, Dave is right. One pitch at your best player's head means your pitcher throws one at their best player's head. When one team starts trouble, retaliation in kind is the only response that will minimize further violence.

Tit for tat.  

Unfortunately we don't have players capable or willing to knock opponents down.  I think that was Nate's point.

that this is only a few days removed from LaMarcus fouling Tony Parker the same way.  I thought it was great when LMA did it.  The only difference was that Roy's legs got kicked out from under him and Parker's didn't.  

I would have liked Odom's move if the Blazers had done it to Kobe.  Maybe that makes me a jerk.  But to me, it tells Kobe that there is punishment awaiting him if he heads to the lane.  That is what Odom was doing to Roy.  If there is going to be a toughness challenge, I want the Blazers to compete.

 you have to stand up for your self.. in most team sports there is a guy or gal that keeps other teams in check.. its the american way!!..retaliation is a must..think about the brush back pitch, vicious body checks, in hockey, you know they do it in hockey,,,so an "accidental" blind pick or elbow to the chops is very adequate in my book

did NOT get that name from fighting on the court. One only needs to look at the lengthy list of off the court transgressions to figure out why they got that nickname. It was a cast of characters... I mean, look at these names: JR Rider, Rasheed Wallace, Rod Strickland, Ruben Patterson, Damon Stoudamire, Bonzi Wells, Qyntel Woods, Zach Randolph. Our current roster isn't even comparable.

I would never advocate my team initiating an actual brawl. And I didn't percieve that in Dave's message. I wholeheartedly agree with his sentiments. I didn't think Odom's foul was out of line, even though I think it was a flagrant foul. I would love to see our boys foul opponents harder. You know who is good at these fouls? Raef LaFrentz and Channing Frye. No ill intent, they just want to make sure that the shot won't be converted.

It's a physical competition, and our team swarming to show they're dislike for the foul was awesome.

I know he gets hit harder and more often, since he's the one to stop, but still it seems like over and over, he falls hard, on plays that most players don't. (I also know sometimes there's just no way to avoid it, as in Caron's foul, and probably last night, but sometimes, it's just a routine drive to the basket) Considering the flops of many players, it's obviously possible to fall on your %^* without hurting yourself, and i think it would serve him well to find out how.

I think the worst quality about our team is outside of Joel were a bunch of pansies sometimes. We need to start protecting our players, especially on our own court. Where we outnumber then 20,000 to 12.

The veteran teams know how to bring a game to the limit of allowable hardness and use it. That kind of game has its rules also. We should not take it very badly, we just have to learn to play it well. Defending ourselves is not something dirty when the defense is proportional to the attack, it is rather necessary. In any case, nobody wants to see our players turned into brainless or Jail-Blazers, that´s why it is a matter the coach must handle, with the appropriate player and with high sense of responsability. I feel well with the reaction of the players and I feel well with the concept Dave exposed, as I
presume Dave is a good man and I read his comments with good eyes (that´s a bias, I think). I think too that Jamon51 have had a very good idea bringing this question to debate, because "this is a familiar site" and someone could easily get some words wrong, as the words were on the edge (I start to suspect that Dave is actually Tom or viceversa). And there are kids here too, you know, so this debate is very useful.

Is getting to violent for me.  

 I took issue...
... with Dave writing this:

"You're going to come at our guy?  We're going to kill yours."

I know this obviously wasn't meant literally, but I still don't agree with writing it.

Guys you can't be serious? It's obviously not meant to be taken literally. Dave was not talking about actually killing as in murder. Why are you all so sensitive?
Personnally I AGREE totally with Dave. We are far to nice on the court. I don't condone throwing any punches but pushing and hard fouls are a nescessary evil in this game. Why should we continue to pay the price for idiots like Ruben Patterson and co.? Just cause they were thugs don't mean that we got be be angels on the court. I feel that the entire league knows this and that's why the get physical with us. They believe that we won't push back for fear of tarnishing the club's image all over again. Its time get back to the good old 90's and get physical like Buck and Jerome. With Pryzbilla out, its up to LaMarcus and Channing to get NASTY oh and for all you sensitive guys BE FAIR!

I was a little taken back by Dave's response as well.  I am, in no way, saying that you should just walk the other way.  Myself, I would have gotten thrown out of the game.  Brandon Roy was the person that got hit, and he did exactly what he should have done...WIN THE GAME.  Toughness is defined by perseverance, not retaliation or "thuggery".  I believe if a fight did break out, every blazer would be in the middle.  With Nate, Lucas, Przy, and Oden this team will just get tougher.

I think I never had 100. Great.

out so I can making a comment. I have never participated in a blog until I stumbled onto this one. I always disparaged the practice because I hadn't been to the Bedge yet. I lurked here for quite awhile before I created an identity. When I log on to my laptop, after checking the headlines, the first thing I do is go to the Bedge. I check the main page for updates, then I scan the diary list. There are a few names I look for on the list because I know those diaries are gonna be entertaining, insightful, relevant, well written or a combination thereof. Three of those names are represented in the last 15 or 20 posts of this diary and not the least among them is Tom. I love his wry, dry intelligent wit and his ability to make fun of himself. I also like that he can be insightful and treat serious subjects seriously. His diaries take interesting twists and turns Since I've been frequenting the Bedge I've seen an evolution in the content. I think this blog has kind of taken on a life of it's own and gone way beyond just basketball. I'm constantly amazed with how intelligent Bedgers are and I'm quite sure it's not the norm for a sports blog. Anyway. Time for the kids to beat the Kings. Go Blazers.