Odom's foul: Fighting on the court
This is directed somewhat at Dave but also at everyone else who promoted this thing. Nothing personal but I feel very strongly about this. I rarely post diaries, but this warrants one. I also know there is one below about Odom's foul but the angle is different enough I thought I could post a new one.
You know, I'm very surprised and disappointed that Dave is acting like it was some kind of negative that our guys didn't start swinging when Odom threw Roy to the ground. That's the kind of crap that gave the Jail Blazers their name...acting like immature little 8th graders.
EDIT 4/10: To be fair, Dave did NOT advocate swinging--I took his comments the wrong way.
Why on God's green earth would you want them to throw Kobe on his can the next time down? Kobe wasn't near the play! To "send a message?" That's completely out of line and NOT what I expect from this group. I expect mature play, taking your hits, letting the officials be the officials and not trying to take matters into your own hands.
I don't have a problem with a little stare-down and bump, like Przy will do now and then. That's fine...it shows that our players care. But to encourage a fight or to get thrown out of the game? I'm sorry, but I would NOT be watching a team that does that.
We had a bit of this conversation a while ago when Odom came into the player huddle. You know, there are always going to be Odoms in the league. If you always react with violence you're playing right into their hands.
That's all I have to say about it. I'm disappointed so many here think the Blazers should start swinging when someone does a hard or cheap foul. That's not the Blazers I know or am a fan of.
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I wish
by iDea on Apr 9, 2008 11:17 AM PDT 0 recs
Ummm...
This is a pretty simple equation: As soon as another team feels you will not stand up to them or foul hard when it's warranted then it's going to be open season on your guy. We haven't experienced too much of that because frankly we haven't mattered at all to anyone for the last few years. But if we're in the heat of a playoff race (or--God forbid--in the playoffs themselves) and another team thinks they can gain an advantage by putting Roy on the floor they're going to do it. Brandon is going to get pulverized unless we, as a team, protect him. As I pointed out in the example this is true in baseball. It's true in hockey too.
There was a reason Clyde Drexler didn't get walloped every time he glided through the air. Part of it was him being as strong as an ox (which is something our guys need to work on). But another big part of it was Jerome Kersey and Buck Williams. You didn't have to ask. If you cheap-shotted Clyde or even got too rough with him they were going to have you for lunch...and they meant business. They both established that aura early in their careers and neither had to do much afterwards except exist. That actually kept the horseplay to a minimum, which is exactly why I'm suggesting that if another team whacks you in the nose you better be ready to whack them back. It ends this kind of stuff.
It's not confined to that hard foul on Roy either. Odom was shoving Lamarcus around all night last night, making a big deal of being physical. Unless and until our guys learn to deal with that and maybe dish it back "extra physical" is all you're going to see out there.
--Dave
by Dave on Apr 9, 2008 11:25 AM PDT 0 recs
I know you
Your point is well taken about Clyde and those boys--they did make a statement and stuck to it. But I just feel like if every time a guy like Odom tries to get inside your head and throws a cheap shot (which they are going to do anyway, regardless if you have Andre the Giant on your team or not), you drop the gloves and start slugging it out--you're playing their game.
Let the refs throw them out. The refs see this kind of thing and if a hard foul is committed, the league will suspend the perp. It's not up to our guys to police the court.
by jamon51 on
Apr 9, 2008 11:31 AM PDT
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"Fight"
--Dave
by Dave on
Apr 9, 2008 11:35 AM PDT
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Absolutely
by TheOdenator on
Apr 9, 2008 11:52 AM PDT
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Okay
by jamon51 on
Apr 9, 2008 12:33 PM PDT
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or rather
by jamon51 on
Apr 9, 2008 12:41 PM PDT
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Joel and Greg Oden
by ranma on
Apr 9, 2008 11:35 AM PDT
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Happens multiple times a night in hockey.
by bocious on
Apr 9, 2008 6:55 PM PDT
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Pretty much
--Dave
by Dave on
Apr 9, 2008 7:59 PM PDT
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Send out
Nate whispers in his ear, "remember the pain Troy Hudson caused you, son? Go gettim!"
by bothteamsplayedhard on
Apr 9, 2008 11:36 AM PDT
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Think Baseball.
by kevingiard1 on
Apr 10, 2008 3:56 PM PDT
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Retaliation doesn't beget more violence.
I agree completely with Dave; he didn't advocate starting a fight. What he was saying was that the Blazers shouldn't back down out of fear of the LAKERS turning it into a fight. If they choose that path, you have to say, "So be it."
by hurryup09 on Apr 9, 2008 11:45 AM PDT 0 recs
my clan motto (gunn clan)
There's a certain confidence in that,
not many other clans messed with them.
by holder on
Apr 9, 2008 4:15 PM PDT
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I agree with Dave here. You ALWAYS have to stand
As far as playing into their hands, different situations call for different responses. Remember in the 2000 WCF Rick Fox blatantly trying to get under Pippen's skin in an obvious effort to remove Pipp from the game? Pippen kept his cool, he knew what they were doing. They were not trying to intimidate him, they were trying to get him to lose his cool to get him kicked out of the game.
An opposite example would be one from back in the day. Pretty much everyone was afraid of Xavier McDaniel. The dude was a straight up thug.Jerome Kersey went toe to toe with him and in the process not only earned the X man's respect but established himself in the league as someone you don't mess with.
Did you enjoy and support those Blazer's? Were they thugs?
You have got to draw lines in the sand. There is a big difference between establishing yourself and standing up to the bully versus being a jailblazer thug.
by jferg on Apr 9, 2008 11:48 AM PDT 0 recs
I'm not saying back down
by jamon51 on
Apr 9, 2008 12:39 PM PDT
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So if you don't get physical
by timg56 on
Apr 9, 2008 1:54 PM PDT
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Keep playing hard and tough
by jamon51 on
Apr 9, 2008 3:14 PM PDT
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That sounds nice, but it's not always
When you have an opponent who is playing physical and pushing (or exceeding) the rules, and you are not hearing a whistle, you need to realize how the game is being called and adjust accordingly. If it's me, I make sure to start leading with my elbows. It's amazing how fast a guy backs off after catching one. It's not necessarily dirty, it's just one adjustment you make.
Another aspect to keep in mind is that these guys are not little leaguers or even high school or college players. They are grown men earning a living in a very competative environment. Intimidation is a well worn and effective tactic. If I think my opponent can be intimidated by a little physical or rough play, then I may give it a go.
All in all, I thought what Odom did was within the bounds of playing in the NBA. It was against the rules and he was accordingly hit with a flagrant foul. That's a cost benefit analysis teams and players make all the time.
by timg56 on
Apr 9, 2008 4:12 PM PDT
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i agree with this
I totally agree with your statement, and leading with your elbows isn't necessarily dirty if the refs are going to allow it on both ends. My main beef was with the call for retaliatory dirty fouls or fighting.
by jamon51 on
Apr 10, 2008 10:05 AM PDT
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no
by RipCity on
Apr 9, 2008 8:59 PM PDT
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And remember our biggest enforcer
by blazermaniac32 on Apr 9, 2008 11:55 AM PDT 0 recs
I took issue...
"You're going to come at our guy? We're going to kill yours."
I know this obviously wasn't meant literally, but I still don't agree with writing it.
I agree a hard foul would have been warranted, but that's all. Odom's foul really wasn't all that bad.
by jksnake99 on Apr 9, 2008 12:05 PM PDT 0 recs
Yeah
Specifically, that's what we want them to be thinking...that they don't want to come at our guy because we will do that right back to theirs and make no mistake about it. Not that we'd actually kill them or even hurt them intentionally. More like...you want to bounce one of your forwards off of our guy? This is what our center looks like bouncing off of yours.
--Dave
by Dave on
Apr 9, 2008 12:54 PM PDT
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This is what I think you were going for
by 92wastheyear on
Apr 9, 2008 1:23 PM PDT
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I loved him in that movie
by timg56 on
Apr 9, 2008 2:00 PM PDT
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nate spoke on this...
As I told our guys, that was a hard foul, it's part of the NBA. One of the things I told our guys before the game, I think at times we have too much respect for opponents. We kind of look at these guys and want them to like us. Players don't care about that... The bottom line is you're trying to win games. I thought that play showed that Brandon Roy is just Brandon Roy to the Lakers. They gave up the foul so they completed that with a hard foul and that's how we have to learn to play. You don't want to hurt anybody, but you come in there and you don't allow them to get the shot off. I like what I saw as far as guys coming to Brandon's [defense]. I like that, I thought that was good. One of the things we wanted to do was start something tonight and I thought they tried."
Nobody wants to see a serious fight but I think many people (Nate included) at least want to see some posturing and a fighting spirit. Getting bullied can cause serious problems to a team's psyche and culture.
by Ben. on Apr 9, 2008 12:07 PM PDT 0 recs
Posturing is okay
by jamon51 on
Apr 9, 2008 12:47 PM PDT
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What's funny about the quote
If somebody is starting something you probably should know...not just think they are...maybe...if you squint just right.
As far as the trying...it's not really a "trying" thing. You can't be taught to start something. It's not like, "Travis, go out there, put your shoulders back...no, no...more like that. There you go! Now stare him in the eyes and say, 'Your mother swallows ping pong balls.' No, not table tennis, ping pong. It sounds better." You either have it or you don't. Our guys are cool in many ways, but they just don't have it. We could really use one guy who you KNOW just started something...and maybe finished it too.
--Dave
by Dave on
Apr 9, 2008 2:59 PM PDT
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ok
Have you ever watched Woman's basketball on any level? They are much meaner and dirtier than guy b ball players. Know why? Cause they can get away with it. Some girl players are mean and some players are very soft so the mean ones beat the crap out of the soft ones because there is no fear of retaliation. In the men's game very few things like that happen because if you do something too dirty you're going to get hit back just as hard or harder. De-taunt.
De-taunt is what allows there to be a million plus pick up basketball games everyday around the world.
I've been advocating picking up an enforcer for sometime now to protect Roy and LA and baby faced Webster.
by T REX on Apr 9, 2008 12:11 PM PDT 0 recs
Apparently I'm in the minority here
I'd rather not stoop to that level.
by jamon51 on Apr 9, 2008 12:36 PM PDT 0 recs
It's all in the game
Players know the game they play is, on a certain level, inherently dangerous. If they find it too unsavory, they're more than welcome to find a regular 9 to 5.
Insinuating that players "stoop to that level" when giving hard fouls is in and of itself a bit insulting.
by Lance Uppercut on
Apr 9, 2008 1:20 PM PDT
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Lance
Obviously there is always a risk of injury and if you're not willing to take that risk, go home. But deliberately cheap-shotting someone is beyond that line.
by jamon51 on
Apr 9, 2008 3:18 PM PDT
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dude
by RipCity on
Apr 9, 2008 9:16 PM PDT
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I don't think
--Dave
by Dave on
Apr 10, 2008 1:18 AM PDT
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Ok
by RipCity on
Apr 10, 2008 11:17 PM PDT
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Blazers players looked like young lions
by annthefan on
Apr 11, 2008 5:19 AM PDT
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You raise an interesting point.
For example it is ok to use deadly force if the intent is to protect yourself or others. There still has to be a justifiable threat, but your intent is a key factor.
But judging intent can be the proverbial slippery slope. One of my favorite examples of this are "hate" crime laws. Does anyone here really believe that it makes a difference if they were to be assualted over the color of their skin, their sexual orientation or for the money in their wallet. To me, intent in this case doesn't matter. What matters is that I was assualted. The penalties directed towards my assailant should be the same, no matter what his intent was.
The same holds true in basketball. It shouldn't matter if Odom's intent was to send a message or just stop Roy from scoring a basket. What should matter is the fact that he used excessive force. It wasn't Odom's intent that caused hurt to Brandon, it was getting slammed to the floor. That's what should be penalized.
btw - tom gets my vote for DoW.
by timg56 on
Apr 10, 2008 7:15 AM PDT
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I just had jury duty
Anyway, probably another long discussion....
by jamon51 on
Apr 10, 2008 10:10 AM PDT
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I Don't Like Hate Crime Laws Too
I have a personal example as well. When I was in 4th grade, I was visiting a cousin in Roseburg. He was two years old than I, and one night he asked me if I wanted to have some fun. We each grabbed three eggs and went out his back door, and we each threw one egg at three different houses. My cousin hit all three houses and I only hit one.
A few months later my mom got a call from my aunt and she told my mother that my cousin and I egged a mentally disabled family's home. I ended up grounded for a month and taken out of baseball for egging the disabled family's home. It was simply a crime of stupidity because neither my cousin or I knew who lived in any of the homes. But my mom's own hate crime legislation made a two week grounding into ruining my dreams of being a pro baseball players and a month of restriction.
by tominhawaii on
Apr 10, 2008 9:21 PM PDT
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okay i think
The only way to keep this from happening is to make the quick statement that we aren't going to let our teammates get pushed around, and while I am sure everyone here would agree that this is regrettable, it is the best way to keep these things from happening in the first place. And while we can all agree that it would be better if this were not the case, the blazers are the team that is going to get beaten up, and this type of behavior will be perpetuated if they don't stand up for themselves.
by TheOdenator on
Apr 9, 2008 2:59 PM PDT
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Sure I understand that
by jamon51 on
Apr 9, 2008 3:20 PM PDT
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agreed
by TheOdenator on
Apr 10, 2008 9:01 AM PDT
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I'm about
But there comes a time to punch, too. In 1977, when Dawkins mugged Gross, then took a huge swing at Bobby's face while Collins was holding Gross, and then backed away like the bully and coward he was, I was mighty proud of Lucas for flooring him.
Dawkins should have been charged with assault for that swing at Gross, even if he hit his teammate instead. When you think that he swung so hard that when Gross ducked, he still hit Collins hard enough that he needed stitches, I shudder to think what would have happened if he hit Bobby. He might have killed him. He should have been thrown out of the league for that.
My only regret was that Lucas only knocked him down once.
by jscot on
Apr 10, 2008 9:50 AM PDT
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Here is a quote from an SI article
'The fact is that a top-rank enforcer rarely has to fight. Once he has earned his rank, further demonstrations are usually unnecessary. An enforcer's job is to keep things in order on the court, in whatever way works best for his team. If an opponent is taking liberties with a teammate, the enforcer sends him a message. Sometimes a glance is all it takes, sometimes a word or two, sometimes an elbow or an extra-hard pick. But if the opponent sends back a message of his own--"Are you talkin' to me?"--sterner means may be called for.
Until the Lucas-Dawkins confrontation in the playoffs, Philadelphia had been in complete charge, winning the first two games with ease. Lucas had been playing poorly. But his chilling intimidation of Dawkins changed everything. Lucas went on to cow George McGinnis into the worst shooting slump of his career, Dawkins was barely heard from, and the Trail Blazers went on to win the next four games and the championship.
"You need a rugged, we're-not-going-to-take-any-nonsense personality on a team," says Jack Ramsay, Lucas' coach. "It's important for your team to let it be known that you will not be pushed around, will not be intimidated."'
by 92wastheyear on
Apr 10, 2008 10:21 AM PDT
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It's tough...
I also know if I was a L*ker fan, I'd just think it was good agressive play by Odom.
In evaluating the play and the reaction I think you must realize there is a history and a speculative future. The history is a strong rivalry between LA and Portland. The History includes Odom charging into a Blazer huddle last season.
I think there is a speculative future as well. The Lakers know The Blazers in a few years might very well be the greatest obstacle to The L*kers success.
Given the history, and the future that exists for these two franchises, The Blazers cannot afford to let LA even think they have a toughness edge.
If I step back from watching Brandon land awkwardly I guess I have no problem with Odoms hard foul. However, I also have no problem with Outlaw, Aldridge and The rest of The Blazers letting him know they did not appreciate it.
Hard fouls are a reality. Brandon is going to get knocked to his rear a lot in his career, he should expect it. I'm not advocating "hurting" anyone, but conversely if Kobe made a similar drive against Pryz or Aldridge, or Oden in the future, I would hope that Kobe would expect to be knocked on his butt as well.
I actually thought the play that Brandon sustained the groin injury was far more dirty. That was a concious decision to allow a fellow player to remain in a position that did create a significant injury.--Last Night, Odom was being a jerk from a Blazer P.O.V. but I think it was reactionary agression and not contemplated or concious desire to injure.
It's a tough line to walk. I do know however that The Blazers cannot afford to become even slightly intimidated by The L*kers. Not for this season, or for the future.
IMO The Blazer/L*ker rivalry doesn't get the attention or press it deserves, it's one of the best, most heated rivalries in all of sports.
by Krang on Apr 9, 2008 12:36 PM PDT 0 recs
Well...
Unfortunately, not many LA fans see it that way.
by Sabonis4Ever on
Apr 9, 2008 12:41 PM PDT
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They are...
If the accension of The Blazers overlaps with the window of Kobe, Gasol and Bynum and Odom, which I think it will, LA fans will be forced to aknowledge the rivalry.
by Krang on
Apr 9, 2008 12:46 PM PDT
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Another couple points
On the importance of standing up for your star player: There's a player Roy resembles. This player drove to the rim, taking heavy shots every time. He even had a commercial where the message was something like, get knocked down 7 times, get up 8. The strategy to stop this player was also foul hard, nothing easy. That player is Dwayne Wade. You people know what he's doing now? Shut down for the season. Too many injuries from being knowcked down too hard. I don't remember him having anyone that let the other team know it wasn't ok to keep hitting Wade hard. So that person is important.
I don't advocate fighting either, but one of my favorite moments from last night's game (I was there) was seeing Trout get in Odom's face. And I also agree that a hard foul on Kobe wouldn't have been out of line.
by DrivetheLane on Apr 9, 2008 12:45 PM PDT 0 recs
Man...
- Dish it right back at them and send an important message: This team doesnt take that kind of #$^@.
- Cower like an abused puppy and hope they dont do it again.
by myemic23 on Apr 9, 2008 1:28 PM PDT 0 recs
More than 2
by MavetheGreat on
Apr 9, 2008 4:00 PM PDT
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Dwayne Wade
by bocious on
Apr 9, 2008 11:06 PM PDT
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My thoughts are
that it would've been just a good hard foul is Odom would've gone for the ball and just allowed his body contact to be him following BRoy to the basket. But he didn't go for the ball and chose to knock/push BRoy down with his body and arms and that's why it was a flagrant foul. I think all this would've been avoided if he just showed he was going after the ball, but he clearly wasn't. Therefore the outcome was what it was.
by bustabucket on Apr 9, 2008 1:31 PM PDT 0 recs
I wish it could be like jamon wants it to be
The whole idea of laying the hammer on someone to send a message is a really sad commentary on our society. What it says is, "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing." What about the joy of sports, of watching athletes perform at their best? What about sportsmanship -- you know, that cute little anachronistic behavior we teach our kids? Why does that suddenly fly out the window just because the other team is beating you, or because you are frustrated?
I haven't read anything about Roy's injury, and I sure hope it isn't serious, but what if a hard fall like that broke his neck? How would Odom and Phil feel about that?
Basketball is officially a non-contact sport. The rules say you cannot do what Odom did. He wasn't going after the ball, he was going after Roy. I think the league should suspend anyone for three games who gets a flagrant 1, and seven games for a flagrant 2. There's lots of boxing, wrestling, hockey, etc. for anyone looking for rough stuff.
Yes, I'm a dreamer, but I'm also a realist. Until the league gets serious about this nonsense, Dave is right. One pitch at your best player's head means your pitcher throws one at their best player's head. When one team starts trouble, retaliation in kind is the only response that will minimize further violence.
by MiledAnimal on Apr 9, 2008 1:56 PM PDT 0 recs
While I can't agree with jamon's point
Pro basketball is not any more interesting or exciting due to players and teams being able to "send a message". That said, it is what it is. If actions like Odom's are part of the game (and they are), then you play that game.
I think your suggestion of upping the penalties for flagrant fouls is not a bad one.
by timg56 on
Apr 9, 2008 2:07 PM PDT
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When you get hit you fight.
Point is, you can do that. Its basketball, its sports. These are men, this is what they do, and you can bet they arent backing down. So you need to protect your guy, Roy is our guy. I am not saying be cheap, just saying when someone fouls your guy that hard that light should go on in your head saying "If thats how you wanna play... bring it." Then you put somebody on their A**!
Remember the Suns vs Spurs, Nash just got beat up that series, I mean just punished all series long, and nobody on the suns could go out and do the same thing. Thats sports, spurs win. Thats a huge reason they brought shaq in. You can bet if the Spurs play the Suns again, Bowen will be railed if he goes down the lane by Shaq. If you guys dont like physical play go watch tennis, but dont try and say we should not protect our guy. Teams need to know, if you hit Roy, send him down like that, someone on your team is hitting the deck, if you cant take it, dont dish it out. Oden is going to eat Odom for lunch next year.
by jhill2507 on Apr 9, 2008 2:59 PM PDT 0 recs
I don't mean to single you out
To say that ANY competitive sport is "like going to war and that's the way you think of it" is absurd. Neither you nor any other athlete wakes up the morning of their game thinking, "I could die today, so it's kill or be killed." Let's have a little awareness of the realities of war and respect for those currently facing them.
by BlazersOrBust on
Apr 10, 2008 2:34 AM PDT
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Don't swing, just knock Odom down on the next trip
Unfortunately we don't have players capable or willing to knock opponents down. I think that was Nate's point.
by leeroyjenkins on Apr 9, 2008 3:08 PM PDT 0 recs


