Giving up too much for proven veterans
So the Phoenix Suns gave up a good chunk of the roster and made the average age of the team older, to get Shaquille O'Neal.
The Dallas Mavericks gave up a good chunk of the roster and made the average age of the team older, to get Jason Kidd.
Two of the best teams of the league who each gave up a lot of developing talent for the "last piece" player both were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs. The players traded for managed no better than one win for each of their respective teams. The teams that made the bold moves had a combined .200 winning percentage in the playoffs. The players they traded away may have many more productive years in the league. It is a safe prediction that the former Suns and former Mavericks will enjoy more productive years hereafter than Shaq and Kidd will.
Is there a lesson here?
Time and again, going after a veteran player with anything but cash has been shown to be mining for fool's gold.
A year from now, Chris Paul will be a free agent. If he can be obtained for cash, maybe the Blazers should make a run at him. But New Orleans is not going to let Paul go that easily: Paul will be re-signed by New Orleans. Once that happens, Paul will be like Shaq and Kidd this season: too pricey. The Hornets' price will be too high to pay.
So forget Paul, forget Deron Williams. The dominant point guard on the NBA champion Trailblazers either will be a transplanted 2 guard named Roy, or he has yet to play his first NBA game.
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50 comments
Comments
I leave it sprinkled
and I keep saying it: Rudy and the # 13 for the # 2. We draft Rose. That’s how we round out our roster for the title run.
Where have all the flowers gone?
by bilingual octopus on Apr 30, 2008 8:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Too much work.
Just win the first pick and make it easy.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
by T Darkstar on Apr 30, 2008 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think this would work.
Not because it’s not a fair talent trade - on the surface, it seems to be - but because if you’re the GM that makes this deal and it doesn’t pan out, your head is on the chopping block faster than you can say “Robespierre”. The public pressure alone would be enough to inhibit this deal, to say nothing of the possibility that Rudy might flop in the NBA.
I don’t think he will and neither does anybody else here, and I know what KP said about Rudy being a top-five pick this year. You know who else were sure-fire can’t-miss top-five Euro prospects? Bargnani and Darko. Too much uncertainty and too much pressure to make this trade.
by BlazersOrBust on May 1, 2008 1:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I visited London time ago
with a Spanish friend who had been living there for a few years. We went to dinner with his english friends and one of them talked about a friend of all them named “Robert Spear”. I got it wrong as I understood they were talking about “Robespierre” and I did my speech following the conversation about the French Terror Period. They were flabbergasted for a while, before they realize what had happended with my misunderstanding. It was 20 years ago. Perhaps you heard some laughs in Oregon too.
Diputado A: Su Señoría da una en clavo y cien en herradura.
Diputado B: porque su Señoría no se está quieto.
by amlmart1 on May 1, 2008 3:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True Story
I had a younger cousin named Matt. He had a speech impediment, and when he was about four years old, he stepped into his grandfathers shed and said to an uncle, “Put me in here per-a-minute.” Instead of “put me in here for a minute,” his uncle thought he said, “put me in here permanent.” After the uncle shut the shed doors, he walked back into the house. Someone heard Matt crying about 20 minutes later, and once he was released from the shed, he was ever so upset.
Mahna mahna, (ba dee bedebe), mahna mahna, (ba debe dee), mahna mahna, (ba dee bedebe badebe badebe dee dee de-de de-de-de)
by tominhawaii on May 1, 2008 4:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What makes that even funnier
is that I said “Robert Spear” to myself in an English accent and then cracked up because it sounds exactly like Robespierre if you run it all together. :) You’re capable of extended soliloquies in English about the Reign of Terror, Alfredo? I KNEW you were a professor at Oxford! It’s all beginning to make sense now…the London dinner, the suspiciously good second-language ability, that dry ENGLISH wit…I’m onto you, buddy.
by BlazersOrBust on May 1, 2008 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny misunderstanding in my spanish class at U of O
We were talking about what we were planning to do in the summer and someone mentioned shooting the rapids on the Umpqua or Rogue. A Vietnamese guy got excited and started telling us how he had shot rapids, too. We were puzzled, because this was 1980 and he had only recently moved to Oregon to go to school. We asked him where he had shot rapids and he said Vietnam. None of us had been there, but no one had ever heard of whitewater rafting in Vietnam—hadn’t they just emerged from a major civil war, etc.? He insisted he had shot rapids for years… turned out he was talking about rabbits. (That’s conejos to you, amlmart!)
by MiledAnimal on May 1, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's why it would have to include Outlaw
I don’t think it would be enough to get Rose but for any trade to work it would have to include Rudy, Outlaw and the pick. I’m guessing that won’t even be enough. I don’t think Rose is going anywhere.
by BlazerD on May 1, 2008 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Travis is not going anywhere
but statistically upwards as a PTB for the long haul…. believe that player
If you dont talk to your cats about catnip, who will?
by bow4meow on May 1, 2008 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy should be less risky than Bargnani or Darko
Bargnani and Darko are young bigs (younger than Rudy actually) who were chosen based on size, athleticism, and potential rather actual ability. They both seemed to have potential, but unlike Rudy neither was anywhere near being the best player in Europe when they were drafted.
At this point Rudy is looking promising as a potential back court mate for Roy, so I really don’t think we should trade him until we see what he can do.
by trk on May 2, 2008 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no way
If they redid last years draft many analysts have said there is no doubt that rudy would have been an 8th pick or better. This draft class is far weaker than last year…and that’s a hell of a lot to give up just to move up a few spaces.
by Philthyanimal on May 1, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can keep saying it all you want
but it isnt going to happen…. get realistic here… the Sonics have no reason to be sold on Rudy, have no reason to covet him, and would be foolish to give away the #2 pick. ... when is the WE MUST TRADE FOR A PG hysteria going to end?
If you dont talk to your cats about catnip, who will?
by bow4meow on May 1, 2008 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
a dream come true
I actually think there’s a good chance that Rose goes #1, so we’d have to trade up #1 likely.
by JasonT on Apr 30, 2008 9:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I thought of that
And that would ruin my plan. We likely would need the # 1 to get Rose. OK. Let’s wait and see who wins the # 1 pick.
Where have all the flowers gone?
by bilingual octopus on May 1, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
just throw in Raef and Kopponen
then it will work, right?
If you dont talk to your cats about catnip, who will?
by bow4meow on May 1, 2008 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dallas really screwed themselves
and Avery gets blamed…
Devin Harris would have done a much better job on CP3 and Diop would have helped contain Chandler. The result probably would have been the same but they might have put up a better fight and Avery would still have a job. Though i doubt he will be unemployed for long, Chicago maybe?
Woof
by Charles Barkley McLovin on Apr 30, 2008 9:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Avery would've gotten canned anyways
The team has just not been right since the debacle against the Warriors, mostly because Dirk has really lost a big chunk of swag. Avery was going to get canned the way the team was playing before the Kidd trade, it at least gave him a slightly different hand to play.
by howlingfantods on Apr 30, 2008 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus a big part of Avery's failure
after the Kidd trade is that he didn’t actually use Kidd to the best of his abilities. Kidd’s an open court PG, only serviceable in certain types of half court sets. Avery ran the same plodding half court offense with Kidd that he ran with Harris, which made absolutely no sense.
Avery’s combination of inflexibility with his team and panic moves with in-game coaching decisions is what did him in, not the Harris for Kidd trade. I’m a huge proponent of moving heaven and earth to get Harris, but I still think used right, Jason Kidd ought to have been at least a wash with Harris this year.
Plus, for all the chattering about how the Mavs needed a quick pg to defend the CP3/Pargo back court, hey wasn’t that Tyronn Lue sitting on the Mavs bench who Avery put in for all of two minutes in the series?
by howlingfantods on Apr 30, 2008 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dirks swag
I understand what your trying to say and it seems to be an argument that gets a lot of media attention, but I just don’t buy the idea that Dirk has lost his “swag”. He had averages of 27pts 12reb and 4ast a game against the Hornets. I personally think Dallas did Avery a favor by firing him when they did. Now he gets to step back and watch while this aging mess that Cuban has assembled stumbles into irrelevance.
by clydeshairline on May 1, 2008 12:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Veterans past their prime
Going after veterans who are past their prime is what is really mining for fools gold. Anyone would agree that Detroit getting ‘Sheed as worth it, but as ‘Sheed was/is in his prime and hasn’t shown the same slippage that Shaq and Kidd have. People need to remember that Shaq and Kidd aren’t the same players they were 5 years ago. Shaq and Kidd are 2 of the all-time greats, but now they aren’t even All-Star locks, which should be factored into any trade discussion.
by tingeyga on Apr 30, 2008 9:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
dallas vs. phx
I think you could say that Dallas was the big idiot in this debate. They traded away a pg who is going to be a top 10 nba pg for years to come, and a guy they could have signed for very reasonable money when his rookie contract runs out. Dirk still has plenty of prime years left in the tank… along with the youthful Josh Howard… they were set for a long time. Dallas panicked and went after Kidd, thus giving up Devin Harris, who’s time in the NBA has just begun. It was foolish of Cuban to think that this year’s team had the ability to win it all.
Phoenix, on the other hand, made a decent move for Shaq. With Marion, there was no way they would be able to afford him next year when his contract expires. He was already shopping for another team to sign BIG MONEY with. The Suns were going to lose him, and they had to make a big splash move if they were going to compete with the Spurs for the title. Their biggest weakness against the Spurs was in the middle. So, the move made sense. Unfortunately, the Suns ended up meeting the Spurs in the first round. I believe they would at least have made it to the conference finals if they didn’t meet the Spurs until then.
by mcmillion on Apr 30, 2008 9:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
agree
Dallas took less of a risk than phx and for them to get their ass handed to them by a relatively up and coming team was kinda unacceptable. Kidd was still productive despite being past his prime when playing for NJ, yet logically the move didn’t make that much since when Kidd came.
Phoenix lost every year cuz of weakness at center and they didn’t expect Shaq to be their savior, but more or less another body (which is why SA signed Kenny Thomas). Saunders definitely outcoached D’antoni the entire series. Even when Phoenix got that blowout win Sunday…Mike didn’t even bench his other starters…which was kind of a mistake as well. I love Mike…but his team was unprepared, unfocused, and outcoached.
I give Shaq major respect for giving it his all. He clearly made an effort to run and to adjust to Phx style as best he could. However SA did an awesome job at stopping the game whenever there was any momentum. This was the first time I saw emotion coming out of SA, unlike in years past. Before when Phx was down by 15-20 pts…you would think at any moment they could be back in the game…but with the new look Suns, you didn’t get that feeling anymore.
by Philthyanimal on Apr 30, 2008 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhhhh Forget Shaq
After watching him brutalize Sabonis while Sabas was decrepid… I took great pleasure in seeing Shaq fall apart. Shaq gets no major respect from me. He can’t even make 50% of his 4 foot jumphooks…. he is done.
I agree that the Dallas trade was terrible for Dallas. Reading Dallas fan comments it seems that they want to get rid of Josh Howard. The price to get him might be right especially with his recent comments. That trade messes up our future cap space a little though.
by tweener on Apr 30, 2008 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excuse me for "yelling" but I TOTALLY agree with your opinion of Shaq. I'll never forget the smug, self-satisfied look on
his big, squishy, ham hock face as he tried to humble Sabas. He only succeeded in making himself look small, like his mind. It was hard for me to resign myself to rooting for a team with him on it during these play-offs. I guess that’s how much I don’t like the Spurs, except for Ime.
"We comin along." Travis Outlaw
by annthefan on May 1, 2008 4:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see the Phoenix trade as a bad one...
Risky, yes, but the risk was that Shaq’s hip condition was a career-ender and that Phoenix would eat his contract.
Phoenix didn’t win the series, but it could have JUST AS EASILY been 3-2 in their favor as a 1-4 loss… The margin between those outcomes was fractional, and the result determined by random events.
And this ASSUMES Phoenix would have been able to re-sign Marion, which is very uncertain.
Now Dallas—that was one of the worst trades in the history of the league, as we shall come to see in the next few years. Couldn’t of happened to a nicer guy. Ha ha ha, Cuban!!!
t
"You don't live by the jumpshot, you die by the jumpshot." ---Charles Barkley, 2/7/08
by timbo on May 1, 2008 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm
we’ve finally built a quality team with upstanding citizens, and gotten rid of our last bad seed and you want to replace him with Josh Howard? Even if he accepted the league minimum…no thanks. I don’t want him even corrupting or disrupting one of our guys for a single weekend.
by Philthyanimal on May 1, 2008 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he could be obtained
I like Danny Granger much more (3 more inches & 3 years younger), but I don’t think we can get him. I would give up everything Indy wanted for that guy except LMA, ROY & Oden.
Howard is an upgrade scoring almost 20 a game last year & is a former all-star. The only reason that I hesitate is his salary 4 years & 42 million total and a 3 pt. percentage of under 35%. He has a clean past other than occassionally being a punk and his inexplicable admission of pot smoking.
Raja Bell has a much more palatable salary (5 Mil I think) and L@ker fans really really hate him… plus he has a career 41% 3pt rate.
by tweener on May 1, 2008 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Howard's an outstanding guy.
Yeah, it was probably stupid for him to admit to his pot use right in the middle of this series, but in a league where unofficial estimates are that 70% of players smoke pot, it’s just becoming sillier and sillier to say potsmoker = bad seed.
Here’s a true hoop interview with the guy from last year:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-23-118/Josh-Howard-Will-be-Heard.html
I like Howard more than Granger although they’re pretty similar players just because Howard’s been used to being the second banana for awhile now, and seems happy with that role. Granger has been forced into the starring role that doesn’t suit him that well, not sure how he’d adapt to playing boy wonder. Howard’s two inches shorter but he defends big wings like Melo better than Granger does.
by howlingfantods on May 1, 2008 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cause he smokes weed?
If you think no one from our team smokes you are completely delusional. Have you ever seen the pictures from that party where Brandon is wearing a “Lifted Research Group” shirt?
by BlazerD on May 1, 2008 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
if he will openly talk about smoking weed like its nothing then it makes me wonder what else he does in his private life. he had no problems justifying it by saying everyone does it, who knows what else he will try to justify using that mentality.
by Philthyanimal on May 1, 2008 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
legalize it...
Are you for real? You think it’s better character for someone to lie about using a largely harmless substance than to be up front and honest about it? If anything, those comments make me want him to be a blazer more. I mean it’s the BLAZERS!!!!! C’mon!
by thrillho138 on May 2, 2008 3:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't wait to see Greg destroy him next year!
Shaq is clearly fading before our eyes and I wouldn’t be surprised to see him come back a lot worse than he is now. Greg is going to tear him apart for a couple of seasons and I’m going to enjoy every second of it. I’m definitely going to make copies of every one of those games as I think Greg is going to have Shaq’s number from day one.
by BlazerD on May 1, 2008 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was so satisying to me too...
remember that Sabonis could hardly move sometimes, yet had the skill set to be an effective and sometimes dominant. He may not have been the greatest center ever, but he aged much much better than Shaq.
I need someone to find me a video, or at least a clearer memory, of the most fantastic Sabonis pass I ever saw: Blazers on defense, opponents miss shot, ball batted around and finally ends up on the floor. Sabonis scoops it up, facing the opponents basket, and flips the ball underhand BACKWARD in a blind pass down the the floor to a waiting Blazer in the forecourt. The greatest part was that after Sabonis threw the pass, he froze in position, never looking at what happened to the ball, while Rasheed cracked up next to him (must have been before the 01 WCF). it was fantastic. That and the offensive rebound he bounce passed backward through his own and Shaq’s legs to Brian Grant under the hoop.
by Honka Playboy on May 1, 2008 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm
i dont know what you are talking about, but damn i wanna see it now! lol that was such an awesome description.
by Philthyanimal on May 2, 2008 1:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saunders?
When did Saunders (the coach of the Detroit Pistons) out-coach D’Antoni? Don’t you mean Popovich?
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by bforsythe on Apr 30, 2008 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Snerf. All of Detroit is wondering
when the last time was that Flip outcoached anyone.
by howlingfantods on Apr 30, 2008 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry
brain fart…i was watching espn and got it mixed up.
by Philthyanimal on May 1, 2008 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah!
Giving up much of the roster never works! It’s fool’s gold, and to think otherwise would be foolish.
I mean, the Boston Celtics gave up a good chunk of the roster and made the average age of the team older to get Kevin Garnett. Just look at how well THAT turned out!
Trade Freeland!
by rockingharder on Apr 30, 2008 11:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's to hope.
I’m still hoping that Atlanta ends up making your comment look serious instead of sarcastic.
One of Two Official Blazer's Edge Poets Laureate for the 2008-2009 Season
"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus
by T Darkstar on May 1, 2008 6:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too,
but you can’t understate what KG has done so far – leading the Celts from 24 wins and tanking (unsuccessfully) for Durant to 66 wins and the #1 seed in the East and title favorite.
Everyone is talking about how horrible the Shaq and Kidd trades were, and they’re right. The problem is that the Celtics did pretty much the exact same thing. Nobody seems to remember this. The only difference (and who knows, it may be a big one) is that they did it before the season started instead of in mid-season.
I guess what I’m saying is that it isn’t necessarily a bad idea to give up half your roster for a superstar. It is a HUGE risk, but to say it never works is ludicrous given the Celtics’ success.
Trade Freeland!
by rockingharder on May 1, 2008 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The other difference is, they had less to lose.
The Celtics weren’t in the Suns/Mavs realm of good-just-not-good-enough.
In fact, what of the Celtics DON’T win the championship this year?
Will they be judged as harshly as Dallas was when they lost to Miami?
I’d say probably not.
Blazers have a five-on-three...and they pull it back and wait for help.
by QualityPie on May 1, 2008 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a great point too.
Trade Freeland!
by rockingharder on May 1, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
trading rudy for the point
If the point guard is worth it, I say go for it. Rudy will be awesome and would be a great ginobli styled player, but we really need that real point guard.
"No way. I love this town. We're gonna bring back the glory years. These boys are my boys. This is my team and my town." - Greg Oden when asked about leaving.
by ratbastird on May 1, 2008 11:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but not this year
The balzers have two new players to work into the rotation. It will be much more efficient doing that with points who already know the system rather than having to teach the system to a new point at the same time.
Our window is not yet. Patience is called for.
by raoulduke on May 1, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rose,
Is stull unproven in the NBA. He has the best shot of making an impact but it’s still not a guarantee. I would rather give up a little less and take Westbrook.
If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley
by Winchester on May 1, 2008 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. Westbrook feels like the right choice to me.
It’s not impossible that he would fall to us at #13, though I’d have no problem going into the top 10 to get him. We wouldn’t have to give up anyone significant to get him, and maybe not anyone at all. His strengths are exactly what we need at point guard. He only costs a rookie contract. I’d much rather bring him onboard than try any of the much riskier trade ideas I’ve seen on BE.
by MiledAnimal on May 1, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder
about Rudy. I would love a “ginobli styled” player but he seems different to me. I might need to watch more film but I don’t see him being that tough or tenacious. I’m excited to see him in the nba. I would also much rather have him around to check him out as a Blazer before trading him for almost any available pg.
by fatwansaboni on May 2, 2008 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heck yes.
Cheap? Heck yes.
Defense? Heck yes.
Quick? Heck yes.
Can he play off the ball when Roy Runs the point? Heck yes.
Can he shoot the three? Heck yes.
Is he everything we have ever wanted? Maybe.
If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley
by Winchester on May 1, 2008 3:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
KP isn't trading Rudy...
He’s going to draft a PG with the 13 pick, is my guess.
t
"You don't live by the jumpshot, you die by the jumpshot." ---Charles Barkley, 2/7/08
by timbo on May 1, 2008 7:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
After the game tonight
I am thinkin’ I would like me some Josh Childress. The man was boardin and the fro was flying. The hair should become a Blazer even if the dude doesn’t
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss" Robert A. Heinlein
by 92wastheyear on May 2, 2008 9:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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