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Free Point Guard!

The Chicago Daily Herald had an article today about "Rebuilding the Bulls" in which the writer suggested a couple of ways to improve the team.(http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=179263&src=150)  

After an awful year the overwhelming sentiment in Chicago seems to be that this team will not win in it's current state.  A logjam and chemistry issues in the backcourt, and toughness in the front court are the two biggest areas needing to be adressed according to this and other comments made by writers and fans throughout the season.

This writer suggests a trade of Andres Nocioni for T.J. Ford.  It makes sense for toronto as they would just be thrilled that someone would take Ford and they could make Calderon their main man in the backcourt once and for all.  For the Bulls, however, it only adds to their backcourt logjam.

That's where we come in.  I know from previous posts that there are mixed feelings around here about Kirk Hinrich and where he ranks among the the leauges point guards.  While no one is going to confuse him with Chris Paul or Derron Williams, I think most of us would agree that he would be a pretty nice upgrade to our backcourt.  I see him as a better version of Steve Blake and think a point guard tandem of those two would look pretty good next to Roy and Rudy, especially if we could get him for almost nothing.  Remember, this guy was just about untouchable in trade talks for the last couple years, and the only reason we're talking about it now is because he (along with the entire Bulls organization) had a down year.

Here is a couple of options.

Option 1:

The Nocioni/Ford trade goes thru and Chicago looks to adress their front court deficiencies.

How about a three way deal involving Denver that goes down like this:

Blazers get:  Hinrich (10 mil), and Stephen Hunter from Denver (3.5 mil)

Bulls get:  Nene (9.7 mil)

Nuggets get:  LaFrentz (12.7 mil), Jack (2 mil), McRoberts (.5 mil), and our #1

While the Bulls would be taking a risk on two players with injury/illness issues, it's a risk that could really pay off if they stay healthy, and as stated before there is a feeling in Chicago that they can't just stand pat with their current roster.

The Nuggets would be giving away more talent then they got back for sure.  But with the questions surrounding Nene's health, the emergence of Kleiza (not really a PF but does spend time opposite Anthony at the other forward position), and the fact that they have about 80 million committed to just nine or ten players next year (a lot of money for a #8 seed and first round playoff loss), they could jump at the chance to unload his contract.  Plus, Jack could be their best point guard next year (Carter and Atkins are older than dirt), and his good size for a PG could make up a little for Iversons diminuative size for a SG (since it's denver they won't care that Jack cant play defense either).  McRoberts and the #1 pick give them the opportunity to replenish some front court depth.

As for us, we get the PG upgrade we've been wanting for an expiring contract, a couple of scrubbs, and a late lottery pick.  That's pretty much free, in my opinion.

 

Option 2:

We jump in with Toronto to assist them in getting rid of Ford in this three way deal:

Blazers get:  Hinrich (10 mil), Maceo Baston from Toronto (2 mil)

Raptors get:  Ben Gordon in a sign and trade (10 mil)

Bulls get:  T.J. Ford (8 mil), LaFrentz (12.7), Jack (2 mil), and our #1

I don't care what Ben Gordon says, if given another opportunity at the 10 million a year deal he passed on last year, he'd take it in a heartbeat.  Toronto would again get rid of Ford, and Gordon would be a nice outside scoring threat to compliment Bosh.

Chicago would again clear up their backcourt mess and be left with Ford/Jack at PG and Hughes/Sefalosha at SG.  They would also have some great trading chips with LaFrentz's expiring contract and the 2 lottery picks they would have in this years draft if they wanted to continue to wheel and deal.  Or they could use the picks to add even more young talent and hit free agency hard next year when Raef's deal comes off the books.

And once again we basically get a free starting point guard having only given up LaFrentz, Jack, and our #1.  That gives us a line-up of:

PG - Hinrich / Blake / Sergio

SG - Roy / Rudy

SF - Webster / Outlaw / Jones

PF - Aldridge / Frye

C - Oden / Pryzbilla

I'll take that line-up for the next 8-10 years.  We would be deep, have great chemistry, and should be pretty darn good at both ends of the floor.

I tried to approach these trades with a little bit of realism so that it made sense for all parties involved but I'm sure you'll let me know if you think I'm just being a complete homer.

 

 

Poll
To trade or not to trade, that is the question.
I'd do one of these deals in a heartbeat!
11 votes
Don't like Hinrich and I wouldn't take him if they dropped him off at our front door.
15 votes
Don't mind Hinrich but would rather go a different way.
29 votes
These deals would never happen so there's no use talking about it.
9 votes

64 votes | Poll has closed

1 recs | Comment 37 comments

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Comments

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They should.

If you check the incoming and outgoing salaries for each team they’re all pretty close.
Option 1:
Blazers – In: 13.5 mil, Out: 14.5 mil
Nuggets – In: 15 mil, Out: 13 mil
Bulls – In: 10 mil, Out: 10 mil

Option 2:
Blazers – In: 12 mil, Out: 14.5 mil
Raptors – In: 10 mil, Out: 10 mil
Bulls – In: 22.5 mil, Out: 20 mil

These numbers should be pretty close.

by TubbaDubba on Apr 25, 2008 3:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Hinrich is expensive for what we get.

Calderon wont get that much, and he almost made the AST in the East. I give this a resounding “Meh.”

"Scholars have long known that fishing eventually turns men into philosophers. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to buy decent tackle on a philosopher's salary." - Patrick McManus

by T Darkstar on Apr 25, 2008 3:28 PM PDT   0 recs

He is a little overpaid...

but we’ll still be below the cap this year, we’ll still have some options for free agents next year, and his salary actually goes down by half a million each of the next two years, and a million for the year after that.
08/09 – 10 mil
09/10 – 9.5 mil
10/11 – 9 mil
11/12 – 8 mil

by TubbaDubba on Apr 25, 2008 3:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I say wait

The fact that while under the cap in 09, the Blazers can take other players off other teams hands without matching salaries, so why not play the wait until then?
But trade diaries are always fun.

Joel Freeland=Stud

by hightide on Apr 25, 2008 3:33 PM PDT   0 recs

Hinrich is a good fit... IF...

He can return to the way he played a year ago, last year got ugly at times for him.

RUDY > MJ

by myemic23 on Apr 25, 2008 3:42 PM PDT   0 recs

buy low,

he could be good if in the right enviornment, and a good team

by raging WebTed on Apr 25, 2008 3:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

hinrich

is really really good.

he will be back.

i think we should make a hard run for him.

he will thrive with our guys around him.

"Honor Terry Porter." Email me with your TP stories and memories.

by Ben. on Apr 25, 2008 4:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Aside from his horrid shooting woes

His season wasn’t as bad as many made it up to be, especially considering how bad the Bulls became over the course of two seasons.

by Eventine on Apr 25, 2008 11:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

doesn't nene have cancer not sure if he's coming back

also hinrichs contract is a little bit much for what he overs

I used to play sports, then I realized you can buy trophies, now I'm good at everything, even checkers - Demetri Martin

by Zaron5551 on Apr 25, 2008 3:46 PM PDT   0 recs

Nene

came back from the cancer a couple weeks ago and played a little until he pulled his groin, i think.

by TubbaDubba on Apr 25, 2008 3:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

really i'm glad he made it back

I used to play sports, then I realized you can buy trophies, now I'm good at everything, even checkers - Demetri Martin

by Zaron5551 on Apr 25, 2008 3:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

pass

I don’t see Hinrich as an upgrade at all. More importantly, he’s wildly overpaid: he’s owed over $35 million over the next four years. That’s insane!

Do you really want to blow all our cap room for a guy like Hinrich, a career 41% shooter? Maybe he’ll rebound, and I hope he does, just not on our dime.

by matthewcc on Apr 25, 2008 3:46 PM PDT   0 recs

Wildly overpaid?

I’ll admit it’s a little high, but I think a lot of teams would have taken him at that price before he had this down year. 35 million over 4 years is only 8.75 mil a year which isn’t too bad for a starting point guard. If you look at where that ranks with other point guards salaries who aren’t on their rookie contract I’d say it’s not too far off.

by TubbaDubba on Apr 25, 2008 3:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

huh?

can you name a better defensive PG that will be attainable that is cheaper? Defensive PGs command a lot more money than Offensive ones for their relative worth…thats why he seems overpaid.

by Philthyanimal on Apr 26, 2008 1:28 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I love it.

Hinrich is a defensive guru. I’m not sure how well he does against smaller point guards but I remember Pat Riley talking about how well Hinrich guarded Dwayne Wade. Building our team through free agency is going to be hard to do anyway, I would much rather build with good trades. Travis is going to be the starting 3 next year, so it would actually look like this.

1. Kirk Hinrich
2. Brandon Roy
3. Travis Outlaw
4. Lamarcus Aldridge
5. Greg Oden

How amazing does that starting lineup look?

by Winchester on Apr 25, 2008 3:59 PM PDT   0 recs

don't see travis as a starting 3 for us

We need a guy at the 3 (and the 1 ideally), who can hit the spot up 3 when the ball gets passed out of the inside double teams and rotated. That isn’t Travis.

Travis’ is really only effective on offense with the ball in his hands. How do you get him lots of touches in a starting lineup where Roy and LMA (and Oden) also need touches?

Travis is way better for US as a 6th man being the first option in the 2nd unit.

by douglast on Apr 25, 2008 4:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nate

says he is open to him starting at the 3. Even if he was taken out ten minutes after the game started, I would still rather see Travis start. It would be a good marketing move as well as a slight intimidation factor for opposing teams. A couple of good dunks at the beginning of a game in front of a home crowd would add a lot of confidence for the whole squad.

by Winchester on Apr 25, 2008 4:30 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He doesnt even really do much at the begining of games

by raging WebTed on Apr 25, 2008 4:35 PM PDT   0 recs

Missing the point a little.

This trade proposal really has two very important parts to it.

1. Getting Hinrich.
2. Giving up almost NOTHING of significant value.

Are we really talking about passing on Hinrich because he’s making a million or two more than he should be (and if you think it’s more than that you are seriously undervaluing him), when paying a little extra would allow us (in these scenarios) to keep the rest of the team virtually in tact?
What are we saving the cap space next year for? Paul? Williams? Keep dreaming.
Who else are we gonna get to run the point? Calderon? Harris?
That’d be great, I’ll admit, but what are we going to have to give up to get those guys? Toronto will match any offer we make for Calderon as a restricted free agent, so to get either of these guys we’d have to trade for them.
What do you suppose it would take to pry a tier two point guard like those guys away from teams that love them, like Toronto does Calderon, or need them, like Jersey does Harris?
Got an extra arm and leg?
We’d have to offer some combination of Outlaw, Webster, Rudy, and first rounders, and be willing to take back bad contracts in return, and that still might not be enough.
If we can can get a quick, smart, good sized point guard who is a very good defender (second team All-NBA last year), and a pretty good passer and shooter, and by all accounts a good fit for the culture too, and we could get him for almost nothing of value, are we really quibbling over a couple million a year in salary?

by TubbaDubba on Apr 25, 2008 5:01 PM PDT   0 recs

We are giving up LaFrentz's contract

I think Raef’s expiring has significant value and is the greatest asset in that trade and that asset will increase in value greatly at next year’s trade deadline. I don’t mind Hinrich but I would rather wait till the deadline next year, see how Oden and Rudy fit in on the team and then make a run for our point guard at the trade deadline or next off season. Trading Raef’s contract now does not maximize it’s value. By waiting, KP may be able to pull off a Pau Gasol type deal.

by utblazer on Apr 25, 2008 5:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That could be true.

But if you had a deal for a good piont guard in exchange for Raef’s contract now, why wait for the posibility that a good point guard would be available to trade Raefs contract for later.
This seems to me like exactly the type of deal you would be saving that contract for?
What kind of Pau Gasol type deal are you looking for?

Gasol – Kwame Brown’s expiring contract, a young piont guard, and a first round draft pick stashed in Europe.

Hinrich – LaFrentz’s expiring contract, a young point guard, and a first round draft pick.

Sounds right there like a Gasol type deal to me.
What point guard that is better than Hinrich do you think will be available for a salary dump next year?

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

by TubbaDubba on Apr 25, 2008 6:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Good point

If this trade were to happen, I would not be against it. I am just of the opinion that we need to wait at least until the trade deadline next year to see how Oden and Rudy fit in with the team. There are so many variables that need to play out that I would rather wait and see. What if Jack develops into a starting point guard? What if Sergio does the same now that Rudy is on the team? Or maybe Roy and Rudy play the two guard spots so well together that we only need a PG like Blake to cover 25 minutes a game at the point. I think riding it out for the first half of next year will let us answer a lot of questions and be able to make a more educated decision. Maybe we do lose a chance at Hinrich but I think there will be options later on. There are so many options right now for the Blazers it’s going to be a fun summer!

by utblazer on Apr 25, 2008 6:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Everything both of you are saying, pro AND con . . .

. . . tells me this deal goes down much more easily not as an off-season move,
but as a trade-deadline move if we’re contending and the Calves are struggling.

So, table that thought: It could be quite prescient come next February.

(Dave, seriously: Retain this sub-thread for next February. It might come in handy.)

Blazers have a five-on-three...and they pull it back and wait for help.

by QualityPie on Apr 25, 2008 8:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

what if

the bulls and Hinrich rebound and goes back to untouchable. we should seiz the oprotunity.

by raging WebTed on Apr 25, 2008 10:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually

letting Reaf contract expire would be even more valuable because the team giving up a large salary to the Blazers wouldn’t have to take back any salary at all.

Joel Freeland=Stud

by hightide on Apr 25, 2008 11:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

My complaint is your #2

I think the problem with this trade is that we don’t give up enough. We’d still be left with our current problem of too many good players. I’d like to see a deal where we give up something like the following package:


  1. Sergio
  2. Jack
  3. Jones
  4. Raef
  5. Any one of Webster, Outlaw, or Frye

And get back one good point guard, plus whatever garbage or bad contracts the other teams want to unload on us. Anyone with character issues will be bought out, and the rest can be our scrubs.

For the last choice in my list, it probably is more about who other teams want the most than who we want to keep. But I think that’s about how many players we should be trying to get rid of. I don’t know who we can get for that (Calderon? Haris? Rose?), but if KP could find a way to get a good PG for about 5 of our players like that, that’s what we need to do, because it (1) gets us a good point guard obviously, but also (2) cleans up our roster jams. A win-win for us. Even though may be sad to see so many players go, it needs to be done.

I predict that such a deal will be made either this summer, next season, or next summer, in preference to the kind of deal you described here.

by pualo on Apr 25, 2008 9:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Huh?

I’m not sure I understand. You’re saying that if you we’re KP and a team offered you a trade for a player you liked, but it didn’t include enough of our players you would actually want to give them more, just because we have to many.
Ask any GM in the leauge if they’ve ever been upset because they had too many good players on their team.
We’ve only got 11 players on our team that really deserve any playing time IMO, thats just a starter and back-up at each position, with one extra which comes in handy when someone is injured like Roy, Alderidge, Oden, Pryzbilla, Jones, and Webster all were at one time or another this year.
Not to mention that for a team to be interested in the package you mentioned they’d have to have 5 roster spots available, and take back about 25 million in the salaries of those five players.
We don’t have roster jams, we have depth.

by TubbaDubba on Apr 26, 2008 12:54 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I was just saying

IMO, it makes more sense to do a bigger trade, where we give up more players, but get a better player in return.

by pualo on Apr 28, 2008 1:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We have 3 super stars already

No max contracts. this is roys team, outpaying him la and go might not be good for chemistry. we just need an upgrade, and really not even that bad, the addition of rudy and oden, with the additional tenure of roy and la will produce another 10 wins as is. if we upgrade the point I like doing it with a not old but mabee blakes age backup that has been promissing. I like the jose talk. BUT NOT adding a 10 mil per year chemistry problem. we need that cash to pay oden aldridge and roy, with alittle for rudy.

by ptwnblzr on Apr 25, 2008 9:51 PM PDT   0 recs

no

we will need cap to sign a FA or to take on another player…then we will resign our “core” and be over the salary cap for the next 10 years. We gotta load up on talent while we get the chance…then take advantage of the bird rights.

by Philthyanimal on Apr 26, 2008 1:33 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Kirk Hinrich averages 8.75 million a year over the next four, far from a max deal. Here is a list of point guards in that 8-10 million dollar range.

Jason Terry (PG/SG)
Jason Williams
Mo Williams
Devin Harris
Jamal Crawford
Andre Miller
T.J. Ford

I’d put Devin Harris ahead of Hinrich here, but no one else. Fair market value says that 8.75 million a year is just about right for a PG of his skill level. If having a starting PG that makes fair market value creates chemistry problems on this team then KP hasn’t created the “culture” he thought he has.
Aquiring Hinrich will not break the bank and prevent us from signing the big three down the road.

by TubbaDubba on Apr 26, 2008 1:40 AM PDT   0 recs

This is interesting

I thought Hinrich actually made more than he does, and at 8+ million a year he is a good deal—provided he goes back to how he was before this season. If KP thinks this past year was just a fluke and caused partially by the Bulls overall being awful, then I’d be all for buying low on some Hinrich. He IS a good defender and more than capable of hitting the 3 point shot, after all… both things we all say we want in our PG.

If we get the right guy now, I could care less about getting a free agent in 2009. Getting a BIG free agent nearly always ends badly… I’ll miss the flexibility cap space allows us to make a deal, but if we can get a Harris, a Calderon, or even a Hinrich (provided KP believes in him, natch) then what the hell are we waiting for?

I also could care less about how much we pay everyone in a few years, once our Big Three are off their rookie salaries. Paul Allen can afford it, and even if the Big Three are all max deal dudes and we are already at the luxury tax, I don’t mind other guys make lotsa money too as long as they are the RIGHT player. A great PG for around 10 million a year is no foldin’ money out of MY wallet, and as long as they are good and mostly worth the cash and we are winning, then Paul Allen won’t mind payin’.

We don’t want to squander this window of sizeable cap space, but we also shouldn’t look a gift horse in the mouth and expect we’ll get something better than, say, a Calderon in 2009. The best free agent deals are with role players and the MLE, not the big time splashy max deal free agent signings. Of course, it ain’t my money, but I’m just overall wary of any BIG TIME free agent we could maybe lure, and think it much more likely we’ll get a good player with a trade that uses the cap space, or negates any future cap space.

I think Hinrich will bounce back, provided he is healthy.

Mortimer

by Mortimer on Apr 26, 2008 2:38 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Slight Miscalculation

I actually miscalculated using the 35 mil over 4 years that matthewcc posted above. It’s actually 36.5 over the next 4. That comes out to 9.125 million average (only 375 thousand a year more). But, as I mentioned above the nice thing about his contract is that it actually goes down every year instead of up.

by TubbaDubba on Apr 26, 2008 9:49 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We bought low on Frye

He was untouchable the year before, and KP bought him in part on his assessment that Channing is better than his sophomore year showed. I could see the same thing happening here with Hinrich.

Remember, his salary is an exact replacement for the salary we shed with Darius. We will still have some cap space to work with even if we do this—not for a max contract, but we don’t need any more max players.

Something for nothing? Seems doubtful, I expect we’ll have to give up a little more than you’ve proposed. We might lose a forward as well. We might give up a second round pick. We might spend $3 million of Paul Allen’s cash.

Whatever the details, I could see this happening. Hinrich and Blake compete for starter, the other is our backup. If Sergio improves and wins some PT, and shows he’s part of the future at the point, then Blake’s option is not exercised next year, giving us cap space. If not, Sergio is let go, and Koponen is brought over as a D-leaguer/third stringer, with the hope of him developing into a key role player as Blake gets older.

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Apr 26, 2008 4:45 AM PDT   0 recs

Your not the first to call me out as wrong

I got into the Blazers again midway through the B-Roys R.O.Y. year, with the help of a die hard that never lost faith. before that I was at best a fringe fan, without a single RG expirience. My season tickets were 300 hundred leval, and I was more excited ablut outlaw and roy then Aldridge, I’m ashamed to say. This has appropriatly changed. All this = Big B-ball talk > small b-ball knowledge. Proven with my loose max talk and ignorance of the Bird law. most of you have seen this or some version. http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-player-salaries/ Now all I want is CPS with a real max+Oden, Aldridge, and Roy. Everyone else is secondary.

In the NBA, on the other hand, the vast majority of NBA championships are won by teams led by a player who would be considered the best player in the league at the time, or among the top three players in the league at the time.

CP3+ODEN=DYNASTY

by ptwnblzr on May 1, 2008 12:51 PM PDT   0 recs

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