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The Forward Quagmire + Poll

After reading the You Be the GM article on Oregonlive concerning Travis Outlaw a little while ago, it got me thinking about what appears to be yet another roster logjam we will be faced with.  Bits and pieces of this discussion have been mentioned in previous diaries, but I want to consolidate that stuff into this entry, and get some of your opinions along the way.

It seems to me that someone on this current Blazer roster has got to be the odd man out.  Unless there is an odd man out, I forsee lots of debate and banter on Blazers Edge next season concerning this issue.  For the current discussion, I want to figure out who that person probably ought to be.

Greg Oden is returning (Yay!!!) and so we can probably assume that Channing Frye will no longer be the 2nd unit Center, as Joel Przybilla will move to that spot.  The only viable option left for Channing is to play Power Forward as a back up. 

The person who has been playing the backup Power Forward spot is Travis Outlaw.  If Channing Frye takes over the Power Forward duties, then Travis Outlaw's only viable option on this team is to play minutes at the Small Forward position, and maybe some Power Forward if the matchups are right (or if people get into foul trouble)

So if Travis gets bumped to the Small Forward spot, he now has to compete with incumbant starter Martell Webster, and veteran 3-point specialist James Jones. 

Another point, although not as valid, is the potential addition of Rudy Fernandez.  Most project him as a Shooting Guard, and he is probably way too undersized to play any Small Forward, unless we purposely went to a small lineup.  I mention this, because if he does come over, that probably eliminates any likelyhood that Martell Webster gets any minutes at Shooting Guard, which would free up some logjam at the Small Forward Spot.  (I AM WRITING THIS WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT JARRETT JACK ISN'T GOING TO BE BACK WITH THIS TEAM)

So let's talk some Trout shall we?  Some questions to ponder....

Is Channing Frye a better option at Power Forward than Travis Outlaw? What have you seen in Channing that should push Travis out of that spot, or what have you seen in Travis that should keep Channing out of it, thus making Channing expendable?

What is the best role for Martell Webster on this team?  Does he best suit this team as its starting Small Forward, backup Small Forward, or backup Shooting Guard?

What of James Jones? Can we justify him starting over Martell Webster at the 3? Should he be the back up at the 3 as he was this year? Is James Jones a better basketball player than Travis Outlaw?

I suppose another scenario we can debate is whether or not Joel Pryzbilla remains on this roster.  Two possible questions begin to arise.  They are, "Who would be a better backup Center: Joel Pryzbilla or Channing Frye"? If you chose Channing Frye, then you must ask "Is Joel Pryzbilla expendable?" 

I hate to break it too you fans, but if we want to bring in the type of Point Guard and/or Small Forward we want, it will take giving up some pieces of value, not our left-overs, 2nd round picks, and players stashed in Europe.  Joel has a salary that is more likely to be included in a trade, because many of the type of players we are aiming for are going to be making around 7-9 million a year.  Joel and his 6 Million + Jack and his 2 Million + 13th pick is a very likely scenario to get something we want.  The only other option is to work out some extensions with Martell, Channing, etc... to help their salaries match potential incoming players.  As it is, their salaries are comparitively small and combining them in a trade becomes logistically tougher (you'd have to work a trade with a team that has several open roster spots to take on 3 of our smaller salaried guys in return for just one higher salaried guy)  Then there becomes the issue of extending guys we don't intend to keep, and then other teams potentially backing out of deals.....would that hurt our cap space or do I not understand how this works?

If Joel goes, that will basically leave our forward situation alone, as Channing will be our back up Center, Outlaw backup PF, Webster starting SF, and Jones backing up Martell at SF. 

So NBA, watchya gonna do, when Pritchard and his Blazermaniacs run wild on you?

Give me your thoughts people.  First of all, discuss pros and cons of our forwards.  Compare them to each other.  Who is a keeper and who isn't?  Why or why not?

I personally think James Jones should be the odd man out.  I love having him on the team, I love his three point shooting, and I love advertisements where he points at me and says that I need to be entertained.  However, he really doesn't have any offensive game inside of 18 ft, and his foot speed isn't all that good. Combine that with my beliefs that either Travis or Martell can offer everything James Jones can and more, and I think he should be the one to go.  Travis shot 40% from 3-pt range this year, and Martell was starting to come into his own until his irregular heartbeat stuff started up.  Otherwise, if we keep James Jones, it should probably be as a situational player.  In my mind, I can't justify him taking major minutes away from Outlaw or Webster.

The poll question discusses which of our front line players you would personally move off of our roster to alleiviate the potential logjams that lay ahead in the future.

Poll
Which Blazer would you move off of the roster to clear up playing time congestion next season?
  • Joel Pryzbilla
  • Channing Frye
  • Travis Outlaw
  • Martell Webster
  • James Jones

  108 votes | Results

0 recs | Comment 24 comments

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Comments

Display:

My depth chart

Blake/Rodriguez/Wafer
Roy/Fernandez/Jack
Martell/Jones/Trout
LMA/Frye/Trout
Oden/Przybilla/LaFrentz

With Oden and Rudy coming in, I think Trout and Jack should either get traded or play lesser roles next season.

One possible rotation besides playing small with Roy at SF, is have Roy play PG and Rudy at 2. Roy runs the team anyway and I’m sure he’ll do as good a job of guarding the quicker PGs in the league as Blake does, if not better.

Why isn’t Roy being talked about as a possible option at 1?

by LMA on Apr 24, 2008 2:30 AM PDT   0 recs

I agree...

we used to hear much more about Roy at the point, not so much anymore. I think the team always “works” better when Roy is handling the ball. Also, I understand that Rudy could end up being a decent ball-handler as well. Either way , I love how flexible our team is. What ends up mattering more than what position they’re listed at is what they’re actually doing on the floor.

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by bforsythe on Apr 24, 2008 2:49 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Because

Roy doesn’t want to play the point full time and Roy gets beat up when he is asked to create by driving to the basket.

Joel Freeland=Stud

by hightide on Apr 24, 2008 11:23 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

next years depth chart

does not include a lottery pick player, no doubt one of whom KP is intensely scrutinizing?
If it did Wafers odd man out.. I think a good pick would really alter your depth chart in a very tantalizing way. I agree Jack is extremely tradable, but I may not have mentioned it previously, but there is no way Trout gets moved.

I saw James Jones on One on One on comcast and he said that he was the teams shooting guard… did he mean small forward?
Im really kinda shocked James is leading this poll, maybe its because he’s always nursing some bruise, but Web didnt finish the season with what I do not consider an optimistic diagnosis, either. I dont know, I think Webs gotta go, though.

Re: what cant he do? Even if he isnt the teams official pg, the offense is still going to flow mainly thru him and when in times of need he’ll always take control of the offense. He defend the 1,2 or 3 and he just is so good at controlling the tempo of the game. Nate has a nice luxury in knowing he can add almost any combination of 4 other players and Brandon will fit in.

If you dont talk to your cats about catnip, who will?

by bow4meow on Apr 24, 2008 9:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The Logjam is at 2-3.

I agree with your logic, but I hope we keep both Channing and Joel. Channing plays much better with another big man on the floor. We saw this at the end of the season when Channing started alongside LaMarcus. If Channing is the backup center with T.O., like he was much of the season, he’ll be bullied and pushed around. Rendered completely unaffected. If he is out there with Joel he’ll collect more rebounds and be freed up to hit that sweet 18-15 footer.
I agree that if we want to deal for something we really need we’ll have to give up one of our valued pieces, I just don’t think it should be either of our backup bigs when we have so many wings that are sought after by other teams right now (Travis, Martell, and, least of all because of his knees, James Jones). I voted for Jones, but I don’t think he brings back enough value. I think to get the premier point guard we need we have to move Raef’s huge but soon-expiring contract, Jack, Martell (over T.O. IMO), and the 13th pick. Jones ends up on the roster as a relief 2/3 who sticks some big threes for us in limited playing time.

Leaves the rotation looking something like this:

PG: Premier Guy, Blake, Rodriguez
SG: Roy, Fernandez, Jones
SF: Outlaw, Fernandez, Jones
PF: Aldridge, Frye, Outlaw
C: Oden, Pryzbilla, McRoberts

this has been a message from: "The People's Alliance to Keep Comment Boards Sucka Free"

by bforsythe on Apr 24, 2008 2:32 AM PDT   0 recs

I meant "rendered completely ineffective" not "unaffected".

this has been a message from: "The People's Alliance to Keep Comment Boards Sucka Free"

by bforsythe on Apr 24, 2008 2:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And..."If Channing is the backup center with T.O. at the four".

It’s late…

this has been a message from: "The People's Alliance to Keep Comment Boards Sucka Free"

by bforsythe on Apr 24, 2008 2:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Jones is odd (man out)

Excellent diary, silky. Those issues are what I’ve been obsessing over, too. I like JaJo a lot but agree that he probably has the least value to us in the long-term. This season he was a veteran, calming presence to the youngsters along with the 3-pt. shooting. With Rudy we’ll have enough long bombers, though, and we’ll all be one year older as well. With Martell’s heart concerns right now other teams probably will be skittish about giving us fair value for him. Effective big men are a rare commodity—based on how Channing finished the season it seems we are extremely blessed to have four good ones, plus Trout. Trout’s main strengths, to me, are his positional versatility and the mismatches he creates from being freakishly athletic. Don’t forget that the L*kers (our main rival over the next 5-7 years) seem to have a real problem with our athleticism. Having versatility is so important; injuries are bound to happen. I would think that with ten solid “regulars” we’ll be adequately prepared.

I’d like to see us upgrade at PG by offering Jack, Jones, and/or pick #13. Westbrook would be fine, IMO. If other teams do not acquiesce to our reasonable trade offers we can wait until free agency in ‘09.

What do you all think about KP consolidating our two early 2nd rounders for a higher pick at, say, #28 – #30?

by Sumito on Apr 24, 2008 6:32 AM PDT   0 recs

one word

chemistry. Everyone talked about it in the first half of the season, very rarely in the second half. Who of the listed players is going to have the attitude: whatever helps the team, I’ll do my best to fill that role. I may want more playing time, but I’m crazy about the team, and this is absolutely where I want to be. This is the critical dimension that folks are leaving out. With cap space in 2009, we could have a huge upgrade at SF by signing Shawn Marion. But I can’t imagine that happening, because he’d kill the chemistry that the team has.

When I look at your candidates on this list, the one question mark I have is about Martell. I don’t think he deals well with playing a diminished role. Lots of tip-toeing around not bruising his ego, hurting his confidence, etc. Frye, Jones, Przy and Outlaw can go in and out of the starting lineup, get in the doghouse, get out of the doghouse and all of the things that happen on basketball teams. Webster not so much. I think he would start to ‘want out’ in the way I gather Jack kind of ‘wants out’ because he’s not being used in the way he thinks he can best be used.

I think Webster has a lot of talent, he is a good guy, and I’d guess he’ll be in the league a long time. I like having him on the Blazers. But in a forced choice, he’s the odd one out for me, and it is the chemistry dimension that is key in that.

by BrailleTaser on Apr 24, 2008 7:24 AM PDT   0 recs

excellent point

although i am prone to give martell lots of leeway because he’s so young. but the head thing is real. it also shows up in whether or not one rises to the occasion or one finds something extra or is clutch. who shot big and/or game-winning shots this year?

ignacio

by ignacio on Apr 24, 2008 7:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I voted for Jones

Because I believe he will opt out and not be resigned by the team this summer. I also believe we will use our #1 pick on a defensive point guard, then let this team play the year out and make the hard choices next year when the team has cap room. The only players I really don’t expect back are Jones and Jack.

Line up for next year only

Blake/Roy/Sergio/draft pick – this order could be different but these are the players that will man the spot.
Roy/Rudy
Web/Trout
LMA/Frye/Mcrob
Oden/Joel/Reaf

by usmcr3049 on Apr 24, 2008 8:03 AM PDT   0 recs

Seems like most

are selling Travis short, a couple having him listed as third on the depth chart. Considering some of the comments made lately by Nate and KP, I don’t think it would be far-fetched to see him start at the 3 next year. To this point, he’s proven to be the more valuable player – (MVP) than Webster … by a long shot in my mind at least.

by TwoDeep on Apr 24, 2008 8:23 AM PDT   0 recs

I hope so

He needs to start at the 3. Our bench next season, with Rudy and Martell (jones gone), should be able to score without him.

by iDea on Apr 24, 2008 8:33 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

travis loves to shoot the ball, which is great with the white unit but we want to spread the floor without alot of ridiculous shots in the starting unit, which martel is better at, he has the slash/spot up abilities and is improving, travis helps more off the bench anyways as a mismatch and a spark with his athleticism

by blackandwite323 on Apr 24, 2008 10:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

This gets old after awhile.

I think just about everybody agrees that Portland is set at Center, PF and SG.

We are set at backup C and PF as well. (Frye is a PF, not a center. Don’t let the fact that he played out of position for much of the year fool you into thinking he can truly be our backup center.) Fernandez coming over probably means we won’t have to go looking for a backup SG. It’s not set in stone, but I think the odds are good he’ll pan out.

That leaves BE’s favorite points of discussion – PG & SF.

I wouldn’t count on us acquiring that “premier guy” at PG. It’s been fairly well documented here that “that guy” just isn’t available. At least not this year. I’m not sure if there is a SF out there available at the vet’s minimum that’s better than our guys. So that leaves us with the guys we have and whatever we add in the draft.

We have three guys to compete at PG and three guys to compete at SF. Competition is good. It usually pushes guys to give their best effort. If it doesn’t, then at least you have identified a guy you really don’t want.

As Dave showed in his evaluation – Steve Blake is a pretty good fit for Portland at PG. He may not be an All-Star and may have weaknesses, but he tends to get the job done. Another year of stability as the starting PG and we might all be asking ourselves why we ever thought we had a problem here.

Travis played well of the bench. I believe Nate had him with the second unit to give it some scoring punch. With Rudy coming over, Joel moving to the second unit and Channing moving to his natural position, Nate may feel he can use Travis as a starter. Assuming Outlaw out competes Webster for the spot. Let’s not forget that Martell averaged almost 11 pts per game as the third or fourth option on offense.

To recap – having 3 or more guys competing for playing time is not a bad thing. And the guys we have who are competing for those spots are not that bad. If there is someone out there who is better and available, I have confidence in Pritchard’s ability to acquire them. I’m not worried one way or the other. I’m not going to sweat over James Jones getting PT or not, or if Travis or Martell should be our starting SF, or if Travis is a 4 or a 3. I’m just going to sit back and enjoy the ride.

by timg56 on Apr 24, 2008 8:59 AM PDT   0 recs

OK

But my whole point in writing the diary is that someone is going to end up getting the playing time shaft…I’m just curious who people think it should be.

Can I buy you a fish sandwich?

by silkybrown on Apr 25, 2008 12:02 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Poll's right

Agreed completely that Jones is the odd man out. He provided some great times, but after watching him for the whole season, it’s hard to believe that he will be able to produce like that consistently for the remainder of his career. Good luck to him if he goes. Also, I think Martell Webster is better suited to be the starting forward rather than Outlaw, although the backup SF should get solid minutes too. If it turns out flipped the other way, that’s fine too, but I think Webster’s sharpshooter game (that we hope will develop) is the perfect complement to our Big Three. Kind of like the winning-streak Jones with a little more versatility. Outlaw just seems like he will be the ideal leader of a 2nd unit to me, being the main option of the offense. He needs to learn the small forward position better though, since he can take only a little time at PF as that’s mostly Frye’s role. In my opinion, Frye will have a MUCH better time next season at PF, especially if April was any indication. And yes, I agree with those who said trying Rudy at 3 in occasional situations could and should happen. So here’s how I see the depth chart working out with the current roster without Jones:

PG – Blake/Jack/Rodriguez
SG – Roy/Fernandez/Jack
SF – Webster/Outlaw/Fernandez
PF – Aldridge/Frye/Outlaw
C – Oden/Pryzbilla/LaFrentz

by amitp06 on Apr 24, 2008 8:50 PM PDT   0 recs

The odd man out

Will be whichever big is sitting with an injury.

Count on it – between Joel, Greg, LaMarcus, Travis, Frye – someone will be nicked up. We were fabulously lucky with our active bigs being as injury free as they were this year.

by raoulduke on Apr 24, 2008 8:53 PM PDT   0 recs

I can't vote

There should be an option for merging Trout, Webby, and JJ together into one superbeast.

by Sabonis4Ever on Apr 24, 2008 9:29 PM PDT   0 recs

We'll call him...

James Weblaw

Can I buy you a fish sandwich?

by silkybrown on Apr 25, 2008 12:05 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Odd MEN Out

We need to move two of those guys to clear the logjam. No way I see us getting rid of Joel this summer. Greg will be a 20 year old rookie center coming off major knee surgery. No way in hell are we going to go in with him as our only true center. That means there will be no minutes available for any of the forwards at the 5 spot (and certainly not at the 2 spot), so that leaves 96 minutes a game to divide amongst:
LMA
Frye
Outlaw
Martel
Jones

Now, I’m going to assume we play some 3-guard sets with Roy+Rudy+PG at times, so that 96 minutes goes down to lets say 90. LMA is going to get his 34-36 per night. That leaves about 12 minutes at PF to divide amongts Trout and Frye, and 42 minutes at SF to divided between Outlaw, Martel, and Jones. Figure Trout is worthy of 24-30 per night spread among both positions, leaving us with just 24-30 minutes to divide between Frye, Jones, and Martel. That’s enough to give ONE of them some regular minutes, and the other two start filling a lot of box scores with “DNP-CD”s

So, I think that fairly well establishes that we need to shed TWO forwards, or hope that both of them are happy riding the pine. Is Jones going to exercise his option and then be happy sitting his contract year on the bench? Frye and Martel are both on the last year of his rookie deals too. So, if we keep them all, we run a big risk of hurting our chemistry and/or killing any trade value these guys might have.

Best case, Jones sees the writing on the wall and opts out, and we let him go. This leaves Martel and Frye to divide up the 24-30 minutes per night. One of them is essentially the 10th man playing spot minutes to cover injuries and foul trouble. I guess it’s a nice insurance policy, but now you’ve just killed their trade value.

Having a lot of young talent only last so long. Sooner or later, you have to trade that talent or it loses all it’s value due to lack of PT. Case in point, Sergio this year.

I expect to see either Frye, Outlaw, or Martel traded this summer, most likely in a package deal with other assets such as Jack, Sergio, our #13 pick, and/or Raef’s expiring contract.

by douglast on Apr 24, 2008 11:29 PM PDT   0 recs

Been down this road before

http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/3/28/124520/591

In that diary, I discussed the minutes crunch at forward (as well as other positions), and the loss of trade value for players who don’t play.

If James Jones opts out, and no trades, we’ll have a second team frontcourt of Joel, Channing, and either Martell or Travis (whichever doesn’t start). Joel will get 15-18 mpg, Channing perhaps 12 mpg, and Travis and Martell might split minutes at the 3. No disasters, lots of depth, good injury coverage. Some players have reduced minutes, but not to the point of dissension. If we are going to go this way, we probably need to extend Channing (at a reasonably low price) so he doesn’t get disgruntled at reduced minutes in a contract year. Possibly also Martell.

If Jones doesn’t opt out, KP will probably look to trade a forward this summer, if he can get decent value, rather than have someone lose trade value.

He might trade two forwards, but that leaves us thin. We would need to either have Josh really up his game, draft one with our lottery pick, or trade for a forward.

What might help:
1. Winning makes people happy—especially if they haven’t been winning.
2. Blowouts make people happy, and we should get more of those.
3. Blowouts mean more minutes for bench players, and help keep people happy. We should get some blowouts in which guys like Roy and LMA play less than 30 minutes.
4. Championships on the horizon make guys very happy. The guy who might think he can start on other teams may decide it is worth it to be a sub on a team that he thinks is going to win several championships.
5. Happy fans make guys happy. We got ‘em.

Other people don't have as much practice at being wrong as I do -- HT, timbo

by jscot on Apr 25, 2008 4:24 AM PDT   0 recs

Great post

I was going to write this same exact diary, but you were able to do it for me.

If New Jersey were still intrested and we traded trout + Jack + fillers/picks for Harris
I also think Webster could have a good year if he could get minutes and shots.

Harris???(30)-Blake(18)-Sergio(0)
Roy(37)-Fernandez(11)
Webster(31)-Jones(10)-Fernandez(7)
Aldridge(35)-Frye(13)
Oden(30)-Pryzbila(15)-Frye(3)

If jones opted out and jack was traded. Either way, i dont really see jack or a pick being apart of the team next year

Blake(30)Sergio(8)-Roy(10)
Roy(27)-Fernandez(18)-Webster(3)
Webster(26)-Outlaw(22)
Aldridge(35)-Frye(10)-Outlaw(3)
Oden(30)-Pryzbila(13)-Frye(5)

I think that both teams would be good and have depth, but we could solve our pointguard problem now.

by raging WebTed on Apr 25, 2008 3:36 PM PDT   0 recs

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