Trade Joel ;(
by kennetha on Mar 26, 2008 1:43 PM PDT
Email
PrintWe should trade Joel. He's our most marketable commodity and a luxury we can't afford.
We need to trade Joel.
I didn't want to write this, I really didn't. But I haven't seen anyone mention it yet, so I thought it had to be said. I know what will follow... many posts saying that I'm nuts, saying that GO may be fragile and foul-prone so we're desperately going to need someone who can competently fill 20 minutes a game with defense and rebounding. But allow me to at least start the discussion....
The case for trading Joel:
- He has value. There's a lot of talk around here about trading some combination of Jack, Outlaw, Frye, a pick, LaFrentz, etc. to get back our PG of the future. But IMHO, we've got to be prepared to give up something of real value to fill that void. What do we have that other teams would REALLY want? So much so that they'd be willing to give us back a championship-caliber PG? Outlaw, Jack, Webster and Frye have promise, but have yet to develop fully. No-one's going to pay us for their promise. Mid-1st round pick and expiring contract? Sure, those are nice, but not enough. Packaging together a whole bunch of mediocre assets does not make for an attractive package.
- His value will diminish. Think there are GM's around the league salivating after Joel's 26 rebound performance? You bet. Think those same guys will be salivating after he's buried on the bench next year? Once Joel is a backup, he'll be forever downgraded goods. Right now he's a beast who would be in HIGH demand.
- A backup C is not our highest priority. Outside of our 3 stars, what do we need in order to win a title? A backup C, sure, but it's not the most important piece of the puzzle. Plenty of playoff teams get by without a legit C, let alone two! Our highest priority is a PG, our second is a SF who can play defense and hit the outside shot.
- He's a luxury we cannot afford. We have glaring holes in our starting lineup, yet we've got an above average STARTING center sitting on the bench? We can fill in our role players when it's time to win a title.
Oh, and if this has been discussed elsewhere and I just missed it, then feel free to ignore it and move on!
58 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Wow
by RoysOurBoy on Mar 26, 2008 1:51 PM PDT reply actions
Actually,
Frye's not a center...
Gotta not only keep Joel, but should add a tough rebounding PF.
Trade Frye.
get real
You think the team should re-sign Lafrentz as Oden's back-up?
Keep Joel
by BILLMCGEE on Mar 26, 2008 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Indeed
Sure
None of our players are untouchable-- some of them (ie the big 3) just have really high prices. Joel should be dealt if and only if we are in a position to get something really good for him.
you bring up a valid point
No way
I want Joel on the team
I see your points
- The NBA is a potential league, GM's will trade for star potential over avg talent any day of the week.
- The NBA knew about Joel before his 26 rebound game, the book has been out on him for awhile. He is having a great year that is for sure, but it will not make him the center piece of a deal that brings in Calderon or someone of similar talent.
- Backup C is not our highest prioity because we have Joel. If you watch this year, one of the biggest weaknesses of this team is that we do not have a rebounder in the 2nd unit. Joel will bring us that next year, if we trade him, then next year we will have the same problems with 2nd unit rebounding that we have this year.
- We can afford whoever we want, (within reason). Paul Allen has shown he will pay the lux tax for a winner, and while I don't know if we will have to do that or not, it is a luxury we have because of our owner. Disregarding that fact, Joel's contract is very very managable, (read: Cheap). If he plays like he has played this year, for the rest of his contract, then he will be underpaid by NBA standards.
I don't mean to be a jerk
There is no way that we would turn around and slap him in the face after all he has done and worked for with this organization.
Also as a matter of positions, we are trading Raef this year, and Joel will be our (only) white unit center. Joel will fit into the white unit perfectly. You can't have Oden play 48 minutes. This is the 4th player (aside from our big 3) least likely player to even consider being traded.
contract
With the Ben Wallace's of the league demanding top dollar, we are very lucky to have Joel for the price he agreed to stay for.
After reading the article in the Portland Tribune, as a blazer fan, how could you suggest trading this guy? A solid center, a great person, and promising to play in all 82 games!
Him teamed up with Oden for the next few years may be one of the best things going for this team. Plus, he's saying he will challenge Greg for the starting role. That's the position we want him taking. Those guys will push each other and together provide that toughness we will really need.
Here's to no more layups. G.O + Joel in '08!
by courtsideerrandboy on Mar 26, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think KP is trading
by t jay on Mar 26, 2008 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Joel's intangibles and tangibles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vy1NKEA_D4&feature=related
And here are a few of his tangibles (this was made in 9/06, so needless to say with this season added would look even better):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcOTqe51X8c
A couple problems...
2. Joel is officially PAID. He's not as easy to trade as you might think. How many ppg does he average again? How many GMs are going to get on THAT hook for THAT one dimensional of a player?
I don't just LIKE Joel, I ADORE Joel. But it would be both foolhardy and very difficult to move him. And I strongly doubt that it's gonna happen.
t
I did a search of summer league video
I think it is unwise to try to predict Oden's performance next year based on a couple of summer league games. By the time next season swings around he will have had a year of watching the league, a summer of working with his coaches, an entire summer league (not just a couple of games) and a training camp and pre-season. Oden is not going to be some lumbering, wildly out of control giant committing fouls every 3 minutes.
yup yup
If Dwight Howard can average 30+ mins a game as a raw rookie, Oden can average that much as a slightly older, more physically imposing, smarter, more experienced rookie.
The doomsayers thinking Oden will average near 20 minutes aren't realizing how little that amount of playing time is, and are somehow thinking Oden is a 7 foot 5 twelve year old African kid with zero coordination, used to dribbling a dried out zebra carcass as a basketball while using a former warlord's skull as a hoop (if he was like that, he woulda' been drafted by the Sonics every year for the past 5 years ZING!). Oden is coordinated, smart, and very skilled in the arts of basketball. When people saw he is "raw", it is only in relation to where he'll end up.
It doesn't mean Joel won't be very important, and Oden should have enough offensive skill to play alongside Joel as well. There will be plenty of minutes for Joel even with a successful season for Oden.
Mortimer
why do you sign your name?
Quick Chat Yo, Quick Chat!
Practicing, yes.
I forget where I read that, but that was the deal: Oden WILL BE with the summer league team, but he won't be on the roster for games.
I mean, duh--how prospects can play with Oden is a major evaluation need for them.
So it makes sense for him to be part of that process of checking THEM out,
even though he needs no game time or judging himself.
Pryz averages this year...
8.2 rebounds.
Salary for next 3 years: $6.3, $6.86, player option for $7.4 million.
He's a rebounding specialist (and a good one) but this is not the guy that's gonna get GMs around the league all hot and bothered...
t
I agree 100%
Not to say GMs are dumb, Joel just isn't a type of player who gets us a Devin Harris. Some combo of Joel and Outlaw and whoever, sure. But then we got a whole new set of roster problems...
Jor-El's value as a TERRIFIC back up center, tough guy presence, rebounder/shot blocker, and veteran leader outweight any value he has on the trade market. Joel is worth more to this Blazer team than he would be to most other teams.
Plus, he's a steal of a deal for a GOOD center. We got Joel for about the MLE, while bums like Dampier and Ratliff make 10 million a year. His contract might sound like a lot, but it's GREAT for a decent NBA center-- the most overpaid group around.
Mortimer
Expanding on Odenator's point
- Joel chose Portland while turning down Detroit and San Antonio for the same money. This was the turning point where the folks in the media and the league started to respect what is happening here.
- KP has said he wants to attract a quality player with the 09 cap room. The way we treat Joel and Steve will demonstrate our respect for free agent signings.
- The one championship Portland has was won, as much by the second unit as the first. My memory is that the 2nd unit came in (all 5) together and played as a unit. That meant little rest for the opposing starters. Anchor for both units was the center.
- As also noted by others here, Joel brings maturity and leadership to the team. A player spurned by several teams he can speak to new teammates about the opportunity here is be seen and earn fair playing time. He can (and will) also accept his role as defined by the Coach and not complain. Starter, backup, 10 minutes, 28 minutes, Joel gives all he has for that role. That is leadership that is earned.
thank you
Championship second unit?
Lloyd Neal was really a PF, and he, Johnny Davis, and Larry Steele were the keys to the second unit.
I agree with the rest of your analysis (all four points).
All good points
Seriously, though, I agree with all of the points that have been made. I LOVE Joel, I want Portland to be a place that treats players with respect, I agree that his value is good but not great, and we are sorely going to need him next year b/c of Oden's growing pains.
However, I think the point that needs to be made here is this... We can keep hoping that Jarret Jacket, Channing Frye plus three rusty old nails is going to net us a championship-caliber PG. But it ain't gonna happen.
Perhaps another way to start this discussion would be to ask the question "What current asset that you REALLY LIKE would you be willing to give up to get that PG?" For me, it's Joel. It'd pain me to give him up, but for the right deal, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And I'm not even talking about one of those crazy wishful-thinking type deals.
One other point to be made... Why do we assume that Joel is happy to play second fiddle to GO? If I were him and had just completed a successful season, and knew that GO was about to become the centerpiece of the team, I might want to go elsewhere and be a starter.
Why do you think someone is going to
a) you already have a better "championship caliber" PG
or
b) you are getting a "championship caliber" center in return.
Here is what I'd give up
--Our lottery pick this year (and any year, really)
--Jack
--Frye
--Sergio
--Joel Freeland
--Petteri Kopponen
--Von Wafer
--McBoberts
--Raef's contract
--Our 4 second round picks
--Our potential heaping spoonfull of cap space in 2009
The best is yet to come from Martell and Outlaw, so I am hesitant about losing them, and I like the solid steadiness Blake and Joel will offer our very young team. Both are great back ups, serviceable starters. If we get a good STARTING PG in return, I am fine losing any of our PG prospects as we will not need them anymore; Blake is more than good enough to be our backup PG for a million years.
To a rebuilding team like the Nets will be soon, perhaps a lottery pick, a lot of 2nd round picks, and prospects with a lot of potential might be enough to steal a semi-expensive PG like Harris. If I'm them, I wouldn't necessarily trade Harris because I like Harris so much, but I would be very open to any deal that cuts salary off the books and gets us tons of young players, draft picks, and cap space in the near future.
Basically, anything that helps the move to Brooklyn and making a run at Lebron.
I don't know what the Nets actual plans are, of course. But I think we might have the pieces to get a nice deal done, without losing the big 3, Marty and Trouty, or our best white veterans.
Mortimer
completely agree
If we give up Raef
If KP is as wise and patient as I think he is, he'll let Raef, Francis and Miles all expire so he can have nearly $39,000,000 to work with in 2009-2010 (assuming the plan with Miles works out). That's when you go get championship caliber free agents.
by t jay on Mar 26, 2008 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I like cap space
Of course, I like the flexibility cap space gives us with trades, and signing a few role players, so I am all for getting big time cap space. I just think the draft, and big trades are a much, much, much better way to get that key player.
I only support losing the cap space if we get a player who is better than we would be able to get in free agency. I think Devin Harris fits that bill. To get Paul or Deron, we gotta count on either one of those players REALLY souring on their respective teams, or those teams becoming so awful the star will actually accept like 20 million less to leave the team. That isn't very likely, to say the least.
Cap space is overrated, because signing a big free agent is overrated. Maybe because it supports my argument, I can't remember the last meaningful free agent splash that actually helped win games. Cap space does make it easier to make a deal because you don't have to match contracts, so I like that aspect of it.
As far as the salary cap and having to pay Roy/LMA/Oden a lot, I'm sure Paul Allen will have no problem cutting the check if the team is awesome. Whether we get trade for a great PG who eats up our future cap space, or we use that cap space in 2009, we're still using the cap space and paying Roy/LMA/Oden (near)max deals. Allen can afford it, since it will still likely be less than what he had paid in the past for much less.
If no one is available that is worth losing cap space over, then of course you keep the plan of waiting for cap space. But I think some players are more than worth losing the chance to overpay a free agent.
Mortimer
Well said
Great points!
by t jay on Mar 26, 2008 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I hear you brah
Rudy > MJNO Friggin WAY!!!
1.) Value! So what, he gives Portland value by staying on the roster. He give our Franchise Player (Greg Oden) a very high quality defender to practice his offense against. Pryzbilla is our insurance policy if Oden ever has an injury or foul trouble. For this reason alone, Pryz is so valuable where he could save a game, a season, or a playoff series.
2.) So what if his "trade value" will diminish. Joel is 31 years old and has 3 more seasons on his deal. His bargain price tag and the fact that he likes playing in Portland with the Blazers are reasons to keep him. The biggest factor in Joel having a decreasing value is that he is over 30 and that Oden will be playing double his minute. That doesn't mean Joel impact while in a game or practicing will diminish at all.
3.) The reason Backup Center isn't one of our "priorities" is because we have Pryzbilla. He will be the Blazers beast off the bench, an intimidation factor, and a rebounding machine. Pryz is a legit 7-footer on our roster with great character and heart.
4.) Pryzbilla's roster spot isnt wasting anything for the Blazers franchise. Roster space, cap room, nothing. He does what he is paid to do, and does a great job doing it.
Keep Pryz, he is a monster and, more importantly, he is our monster.
by Scotty the Mastermind on Mar 26, 2008 3:17 PM PDT reply actions
31 years old?
Mortimer
Yeah... that's what I meant
by Scotty the Mastermind on Mar 27, 2008 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I apologize
Mortimer
Mortality Mort
Live fast, die young
No kidding.
Oh... you meant Joel PRYZBILLA?
HA!
Well, all the responses seem to add up:
Hmmmm. Wonder what the response would be if the post ran again, except with Frye as the trade subject instead of Joel.
I just might try it . . .
go for it
Outlaw is no PF...
Outlaw can guard a PF on 2nd team....
Outlaw is a forward, PF/SF regardless, he is 6'9" and a shot blocker. I think Outlaw would be a mismatch offensively against opposing teams 2nd team PF's and on defense be solid enough to "D" up.
He may not technically be a prototype PF, but he surely can play the "4".
by Scotty the Mastermind on Mar 27, 2008 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Outside of Roy ...
Also, he's going to dominate second units for years to come. Why trade that away?
Worth thinking about.
However I include Joel with Blake as players who are worth more than what we're paying them. There's no reason not to keep them as excellent backups who love Portland, and are happy to play and win with us.
If we can keep Joel we should. If he's demanded as a part of a deal that would bring a, pass-first, top point guard or a defensive minded small forward who can shoot and penetrate, then we should trade even Joel.
by Fryer4 on Mar 26, 2008 4:29 PM PDT reply actions
Trade Joel? Not just NO, but @&%$*@ NO!!
Won't happen
If Oden shines, and proves not to be the foul-plagued idiot that some people seem to think he'll be, and shows no ill effects of surgery, and shows he can play 35+ minutes a game, then maybe Joel might go before the trade deadline.
If we still have big problems at another position (PG or SF), and Joel is part of the price to fix it, then I could see Joel being traded. But it won't happen this off-season. Greg has to prove himself first. By the time he does so, we may have solutions to these other problems, and not need to trade.
But I really want to see a White Unit anchored by Joel blocking shots and rebounding, and Sergio (or Blake, if we have another starting PG), Rudy, and Travis out on the break. You don't give up that possibility lightly.
You're wrong
Sorry, I forgot
He's being sarcastic...
And ODEN HIMSELF said in a recent newspaper interview that he intends "going for every block," unlike Pryz, who is selective.
So you can laugh at me all you want and dream your dreams of Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlin, but GOd's gonna be 25 minutes, 12 points next year. My source is GREG ODEN.
Telfair
If Oden plays only 25 mins a night, it's a huge disappointment. Bottom line, it's a bad season. I don't think he'll be a disappointment at all.
You also know he's just being facetious and addressing his need to still gain on the job experience at the NBA level. That is no mystery. He's not a brainless dolt who can't control himself though, and the fact he is smart enough to be sarcastic about such a thing shows he is smart enough to not do it every night.
He'll get into foul trouble a lot, maybe it'll seem like every game sometimes. He'll still play 30 mins a game.
Mortimer
Before we can ever entertain the thought
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Video: Boston works in a half-court football snap after winning the tip
- Judging the choices for the Eastern Conference All-Star team reserves
- Judging the choices for the Western Conference All-Star team reserves
- Jeremy Lin draws inspiration from Tim Tebow
- Stephen Jackson is already tired of Milwaukee
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
