KG, Sheed, and double standards
by Royster on Dec 6, 2008 7:48 PM PST
47 comments
Ever since reading the CelticsBlog thread that Norsktroll linked to in one of the posts yesterday and reading basically all of the Celtics fans call everyone who questions KG's behavior a sniveling whiner, I've been trying to grasp what bothered me so much about the barking incident. For the most part, I have no issue with KG being fired up, talking trash, etc., but the Bayless incident is just such a different beast from that, and then it hit me as to the huge double standard being applied to KG right now in terms of the "taunting" technical call and the parallels of what's going on with him right now and what happened to Sheed around the turn of century.
First off, I might be one of the few Blazer fans that doesn't really harbor that much ill will towards Sheed. I think he was caught in such quagmire of delinquents and worse and he just wasn't mature enough to rise above it all. Sheed's off court transgressions never really stuck me as quite as reprehensible as Ruben, J.R., or Zach's, but regardless about how you feel about Sheed's on the court antics, he always struck as a guy who wanted to win at all costs, would take on any necessary challenges (the series against the L*kers where he stepped up and guarded Shaq at his most dominant jumps out), and was extremely emotional on the court. Yeah, he eventually wore out his welcome and burned too many bridges here, but once he got a fresh start when he was a little more mature, he promptly keyed the best defense in the league and led his new team to a title behind its withering defense.
Sound familiar?
I look at Sheed and KG's similarities (both bigs a little more comfortable away from the block, superb defensively, never really "closers", both super emotional on the court, both firmly entrenched as elite PFs entering the league in the mid-90's that aren't quite Tim Duncan), and I see almost the same player, and yet one guy routinely led the league in technicals, and the other is lionized as a "true competitor" with fire for the game. Back in the day, I remember Sheed getting T-ed up for such innocuous things as staring at officials after a call. Not necessarily a great reaction, but certainly no worse than anything Duncan or Pau Gasol do after every call against them. Because it was Sheed, though, he'd get a tech for even glancing at an official. Even the past couple years he's still picked up technicals at a higher rate, although obviously nowhere near his record setting year with the blazers.
Keep in mind, too, that this was before David Stern tightened the rules for taunting, specifically that players couldn't direct taunts at specific players. This resulted in such absurdities as Dikembe Mutombo still being allowed to do the finger wag after a block, but getting a technical if he actually wagged the finger in the direction of the guy whose shot he just swatted. I remember this being something that Stern wanted to do to make the game more accessible to fans and prevent altercations. We already saw the affects of this rule this year with Ron Artest getting a tech because officials thought he was somehow "taunting" when he was trying to break up an altercation.
My point is, that if KG getting on all fours and barking at Jerryd doesn't fall into the same category as Dikembe doing the finger wag at someone, I don't know what does. But for the same reason that Sheed got no leeway with showing any emotion in his years with us, KG gets tons of leeway there because he's "just so passionate about winning" and that's what irritates me about the situation and what irritates me about seeing people being called whiners for calling KG out on it. Those guys never had to live with rooting for Sheed and seeing that level of emotion repeatedly punished.
I know KG has never compared the NBA to the WWF or given one of Sheed's patented press conference performances, but ideally, that shouldn't affect how refs are calling the games and yet it does. To sum up, the whole thing just rubs me the wrong way. Sorry, wish I had a better conclusion, but it does seem to me pretty striking how similar those two guys are, and yet how completely differently they're perceived around the league.
Primo Sheed moves here, though. Almost makes me miss those days.
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KG's antics last night are worthy of a big time fine
if not a suspension. That taunting of Bayless is just ridiculous. Can you imagine Sheed getting away with that?
Boomshakalaka
by jksnake99 on Dec 6, 2008 8:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Sheed would get a T immediately.
Then he’d get his second while complaining about the first.
Jerryd Bayless has two emotions: Kill and Win.
"I want to put points on your face."
-Rudy to Pau Gasol
NorrisHopper30: "someone injure pubert jones"
by rockingharder on Dec 6, 2008 8:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
no, he would've been ejected immediately
honor rasheed wallace
by Zaron5551 on Dec 6, 2008 8:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it me or did sheed appear to be on crack at the time?
I’m actually serious about that. He looks like he smokes crack there.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
by hobobob on Dec 8, 2008 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I love Sheed
He gives full effort when he is winning. He would provide a great scoring threat & I would love to resign him to a decent contract next season. He would provide energy & depth. Not to mention if Aldridge ever got injured he could step in & we wouldn’t lose much overall play from the PF position. Not only that but him and Aldridge are similar players in my opinion, could provide Aldridge with someone to watch & whatnot. He hasn’t been in trouble for awhile & it seems Sheed has calmed down since his Jail Blazer days.
I want Rajon Rondo
by TheGreatDane17 on Dec 6, 2008 8:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The only real unforgiveable thing I can remember Sheed doing here
was the incident where he threw a basketball at Boumtje-Boumtje from across the court after practice while Boumtje-Boumtje was working on his touch around the basket. His pot arrest with Damon on I-5 was ugly, but really, marijuana isn’t a deal breaker for me anymore, given that it’s becoming more and more apparent from insiders that something like 60+% of NBA players smoke pot at least occasionally.
That being said, he had to be moved when he did, and I would love to see him back here to help contribute to a title the right way.
by Royster on Dec 6, 2008 8:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Loved your post
You have to wonder… Does sheed have a desire to make things right here in Rip City?
I want Rajon Rondo
by TheGreatDane17 on Dec 6, 2008 9:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he would come back
but the issue is timing and the role he is willing to play. He’s a UFA after this year, and if I had to guess, he’s probably looking at a 2 to 3 year deal and then retiring after that. He really has nothing left to prove in the league, after all.
I could see us moving to either sign him, or work out a sign and trade with the pistons, possibly involving one or more of Frye, Trout, and a pick or two. The issue would be that he would be looking at ~20 mpg off the bench here in that situation, and I’m not sure Sheed is quite ready to settle down into a limited role yet. He’s certainly still good enough to start for a playoff team, so it’d be up to him. I seem to remember and him and his wife both loved the city of Portland, so that might be a draw to get him back, but he’s been pretty solidly adopted by the Pistons.
Still, people talk about bringing in a “vet” to teach our guys the little tricks and bring some toughness/experience, and I can’t think of many that are potentially available and better than Sheed for that. Still, if he’s not here by the trade deadline next season, I don’t think I’d count on seeing him in a blazers uni again, and even now, I’d still say the chances are slim.
by Royster on Dec 6, 2008 9:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
No sign and trade
If he’s UFA and wants to come back and KP wants him, why sign and trade? Why give up assets? Just sign him.
Not that I expect or want it.
Do you like asparagus?
by jscot on Dec 7, 2008 6:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sheed
If we did sign him I would expect him to play 25-30 minutes every night.
I want Rajon Rondo
by TheGreatDane17 on Dec 7, 2008 12:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If we sign Sheed
then I guess I wouldn’t be surprised if Paul Allen starting pleasing himself in the his front row seat during games.
Talk about an End of Days type of move.
by Bust a Bucket on Dec 7, 2008 7:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
To me...
It was the towel in Sabonis face that really turned me off on him. Still, he struck me as a more of an unthinking lout then a real trouble maker.
by Risk on Dec 6, 2008 10:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
True forgot about the towel throwing
Looking back, I really don’t remember there being too many real trouble makers, just that we always managed to have a ring leader around and a bunch of immature guys without an outspoken vet leader except for Pippen. Kinda makes you wonder how those teams would have turned out if you had a time machine and could replace J.R. Rider with Brandon Roy.
by Royster on Dec 6, 2008 10:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
With a 16 y.o. Roy
we never would have made it our of the first round of th eplayoffs in 1999. Remember that’’ sbcak when the H.S. never seemed to get off the bench in 4 years.
by NWfan on Dec 8, 2008 9:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, hence the time machine part
I meant taking a 24 year old Roy and putting him on the team in place of J.R.
by Royster on Dec 8, 2008 6:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I love Sheed. Very conflicted and tormented human being but a good person I think.
He is a great player. Did some stupid things but I never thought he was a bad guy. I was sad to see him go, and at the same time understood the relationship had to be severed.
This year alone, Sheed would be above 16 technical fouls, fined, suspended and probably in suit w/ the league embroiled in a high profile legal ramble w/ Stern to overturn some of his punishments if he acted 1/2 as “inpassioned” " aggressive" “emotional” or as I like to say stupid and immature as Garnett. It is a total double standard.
Thanks to Donoughy the fans of this game have a notion firmly planted in the back our concious or subconcious and this is just another blatant example of favorritism at least and game fixing at best.
Sophia
"Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcreaft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians. [speech at GOP Presidential Convention 1992] Rev. Pat Robertson
by BlazerFan1 on Dec 6, 2008 8:58 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Not sure 'game fixing' is the at best scenario
but well put.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
by hobobob on Dec 7, 2008 8:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Ojala John on Dec 8, 2008 4:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I love how Bayless responded.
Midrange jumper for two.
I could be wrong now. But I don't think so!
by Kampeska on Dec 6, 2008 9:25 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Fo sure--I thought the exact same thing when I watched the highlights
Can’t beat that.
That is really hideous
--jscot
by prezofdeath on Dec 6, 2008 9:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
best thing ive read in a while
great points bro. +1.
by nima on Dec 6, 2008 10:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't care less about KG acting like a dog
To me it just makes him look ridiculous.
I think the team should be more embarrassed at how they get bullied by KG. So I guess in some ways I agree with Celtic fans, its a bit of whinnying just like when a football team throws the ball when they are winning by a large margin. If the Blazers step up and match the intensity and physical play, there will be no dog show from KG. Even if KG did it, but the Blazers won, would anyone care to make a big fuss out of it and asking for suspensions? KG’s dog show symbolized his physical and mental dominance over the Blazers. Not only is he in the heads of the Blazer players, now he’s in the heads of the fanbase.
Let’s not drag this thing out and let KG mental games dominate our conscience. Forget KG. Cheer and encourage the Blazers to play with intensity and purpose when KG comes to town. Let the play do the barking for us.
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
by blzrfan on Dec 7, 2008 12:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree to a point
but yes, I would be asking for a suspension/fine even if the blazers had won. It’s a huge double standard there. Maybe I sound like a Suns fan after the Amare/Diaw suspension, but give me a break. The league has been meticulous about enforcing the “letter” of the law in almost every situation, but lets this go? It’s really playing with fire to assume that something like that won’t result in a larger fight, which is why the league cut it out. If we had a guy like Matt Barnes, Rafer Alston, or Stephen Jackson, you’d essentially be asking for a fight to break out.
And for the record, none of this has anything to do with the garden variety trash talk and physical play. That has more to do with the Blazers just being pillowy soft right now, but that’s a completely different conversation.
by Royster on Dec 7, 2008 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
In our down years after sheed left I rooted for the pistons.
I started watching them cause sheed went there. I cant disagree that sheed did alot of dumb things in portland, things like getting Td up with the game on the line, but he was a beast here, if we couldve just made a few buckets in that WCF game against the lakers people here would all still love him.
I totally agree with you about the disparity in the treatment between him and garnett. One thing that is funny to me is that Garnett would NEVER try to do some punk stuff like that to Sheed. He only seems to do it against guys who he thinks will let him get away with it. I liked KG in minnesota there he seemed like a hard worker and good guy. Now that he is in Boston ( and has a Championship) he is suddenly MR. Baddass tough guy. If you wernt a tough guy when you came into the league dont try to act like one now that you got the camera on you all the time.
by tevisthe4th on Dec 7, 2008 1:49 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Celtic fans
like to claim it is messing with the opponents’ head to help them win. Sorry, but the game was won, it was garbage time against a rookie 3rd string PG. It was taunting, and the NBA needs to decide if they are going to have a taunting rule or not.
If you aren’t going to enforce it, strike it off the books. If you are, the league needs to take action.
There is a huge difference between hard fouls/trash talk and taunting after a game is won. Not on. No class.
And I like KG’s game, a lot. Always have. The trash talk is silly, because he doesn’t need it. It’s like no veteran ever told him, “You know, you really don’t need that kind of stuff,” so he never outgrew it. It’s the kind of thing you did on the playground in high school, but the good players never needed to do that stuff. But it is what it is, and he does it. Fine. No harm, really.
But taunting is different. Go out, go hard, and play the game. But don’t mock the other team after they are beat. Totally classless.
Right now, a significant portion of Blazer fans actually want to see KG get hurt when we play again. Exactly how is that good for your league, having fans want to see people get injured, Mr. Stern? Man up and enforce your rule, or admit you don’t have the guts to do so and strike it off the books.
Do you like asparagus?
by jscot on Dec 7, 2008 6:31 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Letting the rule exist allows ref
the necessary discriminatory capacity to assure that stars are treated properly. If calls were consistent, we’d have a dark night with no stars. That’s bad money for the imperialist scum.
“Right now, a significant portion of Blazer fans actually want to see KG get hurt when we play again. Exactly how is that good for your league, having fans want to see people get injured, Mr. Stern?”
We should move it back to the coliseum, get some tigers, lions and dress them in red-skirts. I wasn’t there when it happened, but as I understand it, Roman citizens had a good time wishing for injuries. Hitmen prove that it’s easier to seel revenge than contentment.
As the future ruler of the world, I’m a little dissappointed in your (lack of a) Machiavellian perspective. Distracting the masses, using spite and perceived harm to distract and focus attention will be imperative if your regime is to prosper. Do you need an advisor?
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
by hobobob on Dec 7, 2008 8:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Another thing I take issue with is the argument
by Royster on Dec 7, 2008 8:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
that he’s “always been like this”. Yeah, he’s always done the chest pounding stuff, screaming stuff, but never once do I remember anything on the level of the barking at Calderon/Bayless scenarios. Funny how both of them occurred against opposing PGs in games that the Celtics had already won.
I mean, give me a break. Yeah, talk trash if you want, it’s a little irritating and it reeks of the kid who always got beat up by bullies finally coming back with a few friends and just now talking a big game and beating up on all the little kids. The thing is, Sheed’s been a similar trash talker in the “intimidation” kind of way, but he’s never done some of these things we’re seeing now. It’s not a matter of dialing intensity back for KG but having a little class at this point.
by Royster on Dec 7, 2008 8:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"Pass" the Ball
It might be worth trying to “pass” the ball to KG’s face when he is in such a position. I doubt it breaks any rules. The player just happened to be throwing a bounce pass to a teamate and whoops what do you know KG happened to be on all fours.
by colganc on Dec 7, 2008 11:16 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Jscot, you can captain my team anytime.
Perfect practice makes perfect.
by Ojala John on Dec 8, 2008 4:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll settle
for ruling the world someday, if that’s all right with you.
Do you like asparagus?
by jscot on Dec 9, 2008 1:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he has grown up now.
I like Sheed. I wasn’t his biggest fan during his Blazer days, but I didn’t hate the guy. I have gained respect for him with him on Detroit now. Having been on a championship team there, I’m sure has helped him grow up. Lots of people I know don’t like him, but while I wouldn’t rate him with Steve Nash and Brandon Roy as favorite players of mine I wouldn’t rate him as low as I do Vince Carter. A healthy respect for him. As for him coming back to the Blazers. Not a bad idea, but I am not holding my breath on it. Times have changed and I think he has too.
by CanadianBlazerfan on Dec 7, 2008 2:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Better clip?
All I could see in the replay was KG down on all 4’s, do we know he was barking? did I miss something?
I have seen players slap their palms on the floor while playing defense enough times, but I guess this is a bit more.
Is there a better clip of this than the half second or so I have seen on him on all fours?
"Great Oden's raven!" - Ron Burgandy
by danevan on Dec 7, 2008 4:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
no bark, no foul
That’s the way I see it.
by Bust a Bucket on Dec 7, 2008 7:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
now, if he lifts his leg
that has got to be a foul. At least, it would be foul. – Elgin.
Cat's foot, iron claw - LaMarcus Aldridge screams for more. At paranoia's poison door, alley oop slam throw it down big man. - Variations on a theme by Peter Sinfield.
by 22baylor on Dec 8, 2008 10:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sheed's problem was getting ticked when the refs blew a call.
90% of the time when they showed the original play Sheed was right. I am not excusing his foul mouthed tirades at the refs, but he rarely got mad unless the refs blew a call.
Having him back here would be an interesting call. He would make a great back-up PF and would be insurance in the post against injury or foul problems. Ike, Channing, and prpbably Trout would all be expendable (assuming Webster, Batum, and occasionally Rudy/Roy at the 3).
The more I think about this the more I like it. What sort of a salary would he command as a UF?
by upper left corner on Dec 7, 2008 5:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
please, please
let’s see Sheed come back as an NBA ref when his playing days are over. Please. – Elgin
Cat's foot, iron claw - LaMarcus Aldridge screams for more. At paranoia's poison door, alley oop slam throw it down big man. - Variations on a theme by Peter Sinfield.
by 22baylor on Dec 8, 2008 10:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sheed played about 1 night in 4 his last few years here, now that he's with Detriot he plays
about half the time if they are hot, maybe 1 night in 3 otherwise.
What I don’t like about Sheed is the sad waste of a tremendous talent.
by raoulduke on Dec 8, 2008 5:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s why I think the desire, motiviation or “it”…whatever it is called…should be rated more highly as compared to physical skills. A guy with “potential” always means he has some great physical attributes and either needs more skill or, sometimes, motiviation.
Between physical attributes (or athleticism), skill and motivation, the motiviation part is probably the least likely the change. A different environment will usually change them for the short term, but eventually they return to the norm.
So with that in mind, I don’t think Sheed’s skills have gone to waste. He has done what he can with what he has. We never talk about somebody with great desire and motivation but a lack of athleticism or skill as having all that desire going to waste, but I think that argument can be just as valid.
The cowards never started
The weak died along the way
Only the strong survived
They were the Trailblazers
by lukeyhere on Dec 9, 2008 8:23 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Face it, both guys are jerks
But KG is smart and manipulative enough to get the refs on his side. ’sheed throws honest to goodness temper tantrums. That makes ’sheed relatively endearing. Emphasis on the word “relatively.”
As for the all-fours incident (with or without accompanying bark): of course that was taunting—the exact kind likely to lead to violent retaliation. I.e, it’s the exact scenario the taunting rule was instiuted for. If the league doesn’t respond with a fine, it’s making a mistake—because SOMEONE is going to take KG’s head off for that kind of behavior. If it isn’t the Blazers, it’ll be the next team he pulls that kind of stunt with.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
by hurryup09 on Dec 7, 2008 10:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I wish we had Artest for just one game
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
by hobobob on Dec 8, 2008 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He did the barking thing
in the first game of the season too- at midcourt. It was ridiculous, the game itself was just horrible, and I was pissed that he was on the NBA championship team, showing no respect for the game.
Its not like Arenas’ antics, it adds nothing to the game, its not entertaining, its just him being an idiot. Sorry to all the KG lovers, I like the chest pounding, the screaming etc. But getting on all fours and barking? I think we can separate these actions: some are being really into the game and getting excited, and some are just being an idiot, and the barking on all fours is definitely in the idiot category.
Would he do that if the game were close? No. I think that would be a good metric to separate idiotic and emotional.
These are two very different sorts of technicals, Sheed’s were usually for whining, KG’s are for taunting.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
by TheOdenator on Dec 8, 2008 11:57 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I love Bayless's reaction to KG's taunting
Sticks a jumper in KG’s eye. Smooth.
And then towards the end, after the double dribble, walks right through him like he’s not even there.
The kid’s tough as nails. I love it.
And man, is he explosive…
Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.
by KP Corleone on Dec 8, 2008 4:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
to put and end to this
someone needed to kick KG in the face. In fact the whole team could engage in a beat-down (a Wilbon-style beat down). It’s a simple, effective message and in the long run, no-one gets hurt.
M, period. Fresh, comma.
by manzell on Dec 8, 2008 5:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
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