The reason you guys are all freaking out
by howlingfantods on Dec 6, 2008 2:23 AM PST
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Printis that this site is an echo chamber of uncritical cheerleaders. Any criticism of the team, anyone pointing out that this is a good team, not a great team, and isn't ready to sit at the grownups table with the Cavs, Lakers and Celts gets shouted down. Anyone pointing out the obvious, that Oden folds under pressure and Aldridge is as hard as wet tissue, that Trout will gun you into trouble as much as gun you out of trouble, that Blake is an ideal backup but a very unideal starter, that depth is a nice to have asset for regular season wins but not a recipe for titles, gets shouted down as apostates here.
Maybe now, when we talk about the things we need to do to be competitive for a title, like make some smart trades for vets who've faced adversity and playoff level intensity or to get tougher interior players or point out that Nate does some good things but may not be a championship level talent as a coach, you cheerleader types might try hearing us out instead of automatically dismissing us, eh?
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Unfortunately...
You make a great point. Many people are quick to give praise but struggle with admitting our flaws. One nice thing about a young core is that we will be competitive for years.
But if there’s one thing I’ve learned from the Spurs many championships is that while they kept the same basic core, their surrounding team varied. We can’t fall in love too much with the current team, we have to be willing to make the right trades at the right time.
180 degrees out from insane...
is just as insane. The problems really begin when people start talking (raving) about absolutes.
This team is still learning the game of NBA basketball and they are all learning it from each other. The closest thing to a wiley veteran this team has is Joel and the truth is that he was still learning the game when he got thrown in with all the youngsters.
Two and three years ago I was asking for a wiley veteran type player along the lines of a Robert Horry, a Brent Barry, etc. Someone who could help teach the little things that make the game easier. Little tricks, both clean or dirty. We didn’t go down that road and that is OK with me. But now it means that our very young team has to learn these little tricks from competitors instead of from each other. (I’ve heard the argument that the coaches are supposed to teach these things but, by and large, people learn better from peers than from teachers.)
That’s OK, too. It will take a little longer, maybe. But it will happen. It’s already happening. We are going to have games like this but we also have a few blowouts the other direction.
I’ve been amazed by our team this season. I plan to continue being amazed. I also plan to continue enjoying the ride.
"I love this game!" -Moonbeam, from 'Rollerball' right before he was knocked into a permanent coma
by -ken on Dec 6, 2008 3:33 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I thought it was 360 degrees from insane was insane.
.but I haven’t thought about geometry since I took the GMATs a couple of decades ago, so what do I know.
MLB2PDX!!! (someday...)
by The Cactus Leaguer on Dec 6, 2008 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
People are freaking out because that is what fans do after a loss
Go to every SB Nation blog of the teams that lost last night and you’ll see comments and posts by angry fans.
The things this team needs to be competitive for a title is experience. A vet who has faced some adversity would not have prevented the Lakers loss or the Celtics loss. Just about everyone on the roster needed to play in a game like the Celtics game, where they get their butt handed to them so that they could remember what it feels like to have a lot of confidence then get the crap kicked out of them. I’m not saying a vet won’t be needed, just that one really isn’t needed this year.
It’s not the “cheerleader types” that are freaking out. I won’t go there because your “you guys” post is condescending and I would get banned for coming up for an appropriate term for whatever group you classify yourself in.
by tominhawaii on Dec 6, 2008 4:13 AM PST reply actions 9 recs
Grievously
I find myself compelled to rec TiH. I’m not sure how I’ll survive this.
You’re right, it isn’t the cheerleaders who are freaking out. It’s mostly the gripers who think they’ve found evidence to support their gripes. If you were entirely happy with this team before this game, you are still happy but disappointed with the game itself. If you were unhappy with something, this game may have caused you to freak, because the thing that you were unhappy about probably contributed to the loss.
Team’s not perfect. A lot of us are really happy with it, anyway, because a ton of good things are happening. And we’re NOT going to tear our hair out over this loss, nor are we inclined to panic about the weaknesses of the team. Doesn’t mean we don’t see them, but it may well mean we don’t agree with your solution for the problem. That doesn’t make us “cheerleader” types, or that we don’t recognize the problems.
This game proved NOTHING about what kind of trades are needed or what kind of coach Nate is. Not one little thing. It showed up some of our weaknesses in stark relief. It didn’t tell us what the solution is, or whether that solution lies in further development of the people we have or getting new ones.
As to depth, on CelticsBlog someone was saying, “This showed we have a depth problem.” Our depth got us back to being a little bit respectable. If Roy or Aldridge or Oden had played better last night, our depth would have given us a chance. This game was not a great example for you in dissing the value of depth. Our main guys didn’t come up with enough plays to keep us in the game.
Do you like asparagus?
"Just about everyone on the roster needed to play in a game like the Celtics game, where they get their butt handed to them so that they could remember what it feels like to have a lot of confidence then get the crap kicked out of them."
I called my brother after the game last night and that was basically the first thing out of his mouth. He said “This game was soooo important for the Blazer’s. They needed to get beat senselessly. They will be so much better because of this game.” I couldn’t agree more. I loved what live1 posted in his fan post about the random Celtics fan who, after the game, just looked at him and said “Patience.”
The Dude abides
Wow.
Thanks for proving my point TIH. Feel free to call me anything you want. Saying you want to call me something bannable but not actually doing so is clearly the kind of classy behavior I suppose I should be modeling?
jscot, I don’t think my point is that cheerleader types are the ones exclusively freaking out. What I’m saying is that this place is a bubble filled with lots of shouting down anyone who suggests that Nate isn’t god or the roster isn’t perfect, so folks around here had a more emotional reaction to things — these “nate quit” posts and so forth. For one thing, I think folks around here were the only ones who actually thought we were likely to win last night’s game, whereas at other fan blogs and forums, I think folks were much more skeptical.
You’re right that it didn’t prove anything. But I think it did prove that there’s room to let folks talk about ways to improve the team.
by howlingfantods on Dec 6, 2008 8:40 AM PST up reply actions
I probably only would have been banned a week
I think people who fly off the handle after a loss a bunch of …. See I gotta stop there because I’d probably use the word “whiny” and then lace it with some profanity I learned from Blog a Bull.
I dislike those posts like
the “nate quit in the 4th” or “frye is de debil” after this game or the “refs cheated us” after the Golden State game too. That’s precisely why I was wondering why there’s so much of that here. For example, there’s really not much of this stuff over at RealGM.
So I look at that difference and try to diagnose it. I’m submitting that it’s because folks at RealGM and other places are more measured and skeptical than here. This site is the center of fan delusion, where 44% voted to turn down a LMA/Rudy/grabbag for LeBron, where one poster spends days arguing with me that LMA is a great defender, and turns around the next day posts a “nate quit in the 4th” whinefest.
And I’m postulating that if folks were more accepting of viewpoints other than a pollyanna-like “blazers is teh besto, we don’t need to think about making trades, what’s wrong with staying pat, i wouldn’t trade nate for anybody” types and we actually had honest and healthy debates about this stuff, maybe folks wouldn’t be acting like their cat died today.
by howlingfantods on Dec 6, 2008 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
I mean, even *Dave* sounds kind of emotional
in his recap, you know? How often does that happen? He must’ve thought we had more of a chance than I would’ve expected from someone who’s actually very on point in terms of our strengths and weaknesses.
by howlingfantods on Dec 6, 2008 9:51 AM PST up reply actions
I expected to lose by about 10 points
The only thing that really made me mad about yesterday’s game was all those dang transition lay ups. I didn’t mean to get snarky, but that’s just my nature. (Ha, I stole that excuse from Gavin.)
I got a bit offended by your post because you used the word “you” too much and called people “cheerleader types.” I like to think of everyone here as Blazers fans and don’t really care to break it down much more after that.
As for the LeBron vote I can venture a guess as to why people voted no. Either they really like Rudy and LA and want to see them mature and play more games for the Blazers, or they don’t like LeBron, or they just think it’s a silly trade because it has little or no chance of ever happening. A lot of people have a real personally attachment to the players and coaches and don’t want them traded for anyone. That’s just another part of fandom that the “trade or die/we need a championship this year” fans have a hard time understanding.
I classify him in a group titled objective observers, with whom I have more respect for than homers.
He's a dirty flannel wearing, grunge-loving Seattlite to boot - the most annoying kind of elitist!
by Over Analysis on Dec 6, 2008 2:51 PM PST up reply actions
Well, some things you're saying are just kind of ridiculous
I agree some people need to temper their expectations a bit and not jump on people with dissenting opinions, but when you’re saying something like “Oden folds under pressure” when he hasn’t even played a quarter of a season yet, that’s just a ridiculous statement. Getting shouted down for that isn’t so much because it hasn’t been true, but just because it’s a humongous jump to conclusions based on a tiny sample size. It’d be like saying Shaq would never win a ring because he got dominated in the finals by Hakeem when he was with Orlando.
He has folded in big games this year, but he’ll pull it together as his health and confidence improve with time.
MLB2PDX!!! (someday...)
by The Cactus Leaguer on Dec 6, 2008 9:39 AM PST up reply actions
Oh? So that wasn't Oden who stopped even looking at the basket
after blowing two dunks in New York?
by howlingfantods on Dec 6, 2008 9:44 AM PST up reply actions
Doesn't matter
if he folded in half of his games so far. The kid isn’t even remotely back to normal.
If he were a “fold under pressure” guy, that NCAA Championship game wouldn’t have happened. So, you can say that he folded under pressure in this game or that game, and that’s entirely appropriate. But to make a blanket statement based on a handful of games when he isn’t healthy or fit yet, and when there’s at least one significant data point to the contrary when he was healthy, isn’t a well-founded criticism.
Do you like asparagus?
So we should be unconcerned about it and not even comment on it?
I’m not saying that the fact that he’s mentally fragile means he’s garbage and should be chucked. But I think you’re crazy if you’re a fan of this team and you’re not concerned about it, and would maybe think about things that can and should be done about it.
But mentioning it around here gets responses like your “not a well-founded criticism” kind of thing. Notice how that response doesn’t actually dispute the factual content of the matter, but dismisses the validity of the claim as a legitimate subject to discuss? Yeah, that’s the dismissive style prevalent here that this thread is about, that Cactus Leaguer below claims doesn’t exist here.
by howlingfantods on Dec 6, 2008 10:28 AM PST up reply actions
There is no proof that Oden is "mentally fragile"
Everything he does gets scrutinized, dissected, and then criticized. Even if Quick writes a positive piece, that article gets scrutinized and dissected and then Oden is again criticized because he’s not living up to the fans expectations. He’s probably just fed up with playing those games with the media. The players, staff, and coaches all think he’s fine, it’s the media that’s butthurt that Oden won’t play with them. I think it’s the media that is mentally or emotionally fragile.
I think you simply 'dismissed' the point jscot tried to give you.
How’s that for irony? Love it when that happens. You’re a sensible guy, it seems. Evidence not existing in sufficeint quantities to form a conclusion, pretty much means that forming a conclusion in either direction is premature.
The development of that evidence ought to be a point of consideration, but lamenting a trend in the development smacks of willowyness. Crazy to not be concerned? Man, you just jumped off a logical boat with that one. How’s that for some more irony? You’re shooting down people for shooting you down for thinking you’re crazy and then using that to call them crazy? What’s crazy is that sentence and what it means, if it means anything at all.
It’s annoying when people simply dismiss a point. I totally understand that, but it’s nearly as annoying when it happens in the reverse. If you’re going to ask that someone earnestly consider your point, maybe acknowledge theirs as well. Maybe try acknowledging that some folks agreed with reason (as Jscot did). Considering a point is much more than airing the points in support of your opinion and having them supported by others.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
Oh, great
The classic false dichotomy.
You say “Oden folds under pressure”. I say you don’t have enough basis to “make a blanket statement”, and you come back with “so we should be unconcerned about it and not even comment on it?” That’s just ridiculous.
There’s sort of like half a million miles of middle ground between blanket statements and “should be unconcerned and not even comment”.
As I said, it is entirely legitimate to say he folded under pressure in this game or that game. How in the world do you twist that comment into “we shouldn’t even comment”?
Well done, you knocked that straw man down very thoroughly. Too bad you had to go to all the trouble of setting him up yourself.
No, I did NOT dismiss the validity of the subject. To acknowledge there was a failure in this game but it isn’t enough evidence to support the claim you made is NOT dismissing the subject, it is simply saying that you are going further than is appropriate given the evidence. If anyone is being dismissive, it is you, by twisting what I said into something I didn’t say at all.
Perhaps you didn’t read carefully, because I don’t think you are usually like this. The fact is, I responded to your point, and said I find it inconclusive, and said why. The whole world doesn’t agree with you.
The only thing I found compelling in this last response was your statement that I’m crazy. But then, I’ve known that for a while, and most other people are starting to figure it out, so I’m not sure it added anything to the discussion.
Do you like asparagus?
this site is an echo chamber of uncritical cheerleaders
. If that’s true then why are there a million trade proposals in the fanposts?
Any criticism of the team, anyone pointing out that this is a good team, not a great team, and isn’t ready to sit at the grownups table with the Cavs, Lakers and Celts gets shouted down.
Not by me, and not my most of the regulars in here. It’s quite obvious that we’re not ready yet, even before last night’s game.
Anyone pointing out the obvious, that Oden folds under pressure
Myself and at least a half dozen other people pointed this out before the game. The debate is whether he has always been and will always be a choke artist. I don’t think he will because he wasn’t that way in college. And if that’s his rep for the time being, so what? Scottie Pippen and KG wore that label for much of their careers and they are no worse for the wear from it.
and Aldridge is as hard as wet tissue,
Again, most of the trade proposals involve picking up a bruiser at the backup 4/5 position… we are very good but pillowy soft at the 4
that Trout will gun you into trouble as much as gun you out of trouble,
Again, look at all the trade proposals
that Blake is an ideal backup but a very unideal starter,
Again, look at the trade proposals and the conventional wisdom that he’s just keeping the seat warm for Rex
that depth is a nice to have asset for regular season wins but not a recipe for titles,
Yep, most everyone including the announcers and coaches have said this ad nauseum, but we have time to get the rotation down and consolidate the roster
gets shouted down as apostates here.
Hardly… although saying all this right after getting slaughtered on national TV probably feels like a punch in the gut, so if you are getting blowback, that’s why.
MLB2PDX!!! (someday...)
by The Cactus Leaguer on Dec 6, 2008 9:36 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
What about Starburry trades
they we shut down? And then made fun of
And Oden, once again, is a rookie, so non-stop fast break basketball is like fast-forwarding a song while he's trying to learn the lyrics.
Don't agree with everything you said...
but nice response.
The problem with the original post is the “you” and calling the whole site into question because there actually is debate. “You guys shout everyone down…” doesn’t that mean there is debate going on? There are enough people posting here that just about every opinion has been expressed.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
well he was aiming at a selected few
but he shot from the hip a little….so some others may have been hit unintentionally. (IMO) His anger is just for those he probably meant to target, because they have been doing a lot of grandstanding in here and keep declaring themselves to be the ambassadors of Blazers edge…..They group together and try to take control….they make sarcastic remarks and are often off subject…….they are snobbish to people that don’t agree with them and then try to be cute about it…..
I don’t doubt that there are extremes on both sides, but I think the critics generally have a better viewpoint and qualify their remarks with a lot less bias in their opinions……and the critics are not trying to control the site…they are mostly looking to debate questions on basketball and not using BE for a social platform…..
I’m not tying to speak for him, but some fanatics are quite frustrating and if your not careful can bring out the worst in you…I made a thoughtless comment below…….today, I got tired of hearing their rhetoric and spouted off…..and don’t feel that good about it……
'Liability on defense, is an asset on the bench" a quote from my basketball coach, who believed good defense won games and made the offense a product of it
by 67 on Dec 6, 2008 8:23 PM PST up reply actions
Decent points
I’ve made a few posts here are there to get people to realize a few of these points (e.g. Blake is a back-up, Nate hasn’t shown enough to prove greatness, etc). I do think it is important with respect to the team to keep the still developing mindset in play.
Another point I sort of cringe at is the talk about chemistry.. like.. please please don’t make any change that will mess with the great chemistry.. Why do the same people who want to give us time when we lose are the people who feel like everything is perfect when we win… even if many of those wins showed the same types of problems that these loses show.. and would have been loses against better competition or on the road.
Boycott Rose Garden Concessions!!!
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/11/8/657044/boycotting-rose-garden-con
Chemistry is an intangible that doesn't mean squat.
I, too, agree that chemistry is the most overrated concept in sports.
especially from the outsider (media, fan, etc) point of view
yes! it is overrated and none of us out here really understand the chemistry on the team or how it impacts players…
Boycott Rose Garden Concessions!!!
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/11/8/657044/boycotting-rose-garden-con
Explain the 2001 Blazers without chemistry as a cause for their utter collapse
They were No. 1 in the league and tearing it up when Bob added Strickland. Then, BAM!!!!! Does adding a good, above average point guard to an already stacked team somehow make them worse without taking chemistry into account? Did chemistry play in Sabonis’ decision not to return to the Blazers?
Most intangible, maybe for some. Doesn’t mean squat? Maybe not as much as some think it means, but there’re many examples of chemistry being important.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
What would you call it then?
Let’s say we trade LMA for Jamison (or any player), would “chemistry” be an issue? How would his game mesh with our other players? Would he be able to accept his role on the team (whatever KP/Nate thinks it should be)? Would he be able to accept Roy’s role as leader? These are valid questions. My guess is that fans wouldn’t really be able to answer them with any accuracy but they are valid concerns.
They may or may not be deal breakers but how a group of individuals becomes a team is essentially what the word “chemistry” refers to. People are bringing up toughness as a weakness. Trading for Stephen Jackson, Josh Howard, Matt Barnes, or Ron Artest to solve that problem brings up a whole different set of “chemistry” questions than addressing it with Prince, Battier, Milsap etc. One group of guys would blend in a bit better than the other.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
you are not wrong
And your best point is
My guess is that fans wouldn’t really be able to answer them with any accuracy but they are valid concerns.
And one can always find trades that seem to lead to chemistry problems (like Detroit with AI) but my point is just that, with certain individuals who have been known to have problems aside, teams build chemistry by playing together. If the Blazers are lacking some key piece of talent or experience.. it seems silly to be talking 21 games into the season about how it would ruin our great chemistry to explore reasonable trades. This is not a championship caliber team now.. it feels like at least this point has become obvious to all now, right? So this is the perfect time to be thinking about making that key trade so that they can spend the rest of the season and the off season developing that chemistry..
Boycott Rose Garden Concessions!!!
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/11/8/657044/boycotting-rose-garden-con
Why is it obvious?
Isn’t that what HowlingTodd is decrying in this post? No debate. I don’t think it is obvious. I think they can get better as is and I think they can improve with a trade. Why is it obvious a trade is the only answer?
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
sorry if I wasn't clear
what is obvious is that we are not a championship caliber team right now.. that is the only thing I feel is obvious..
In terms of chemistry issues.. this is the perfect time to be considering a trade because we are not that team and we are not going to lose some important amazing chemistry that is going to lead us to the finals. But I agree with you again.. I also think we would eventually improve a ton with just these guys (although we need more time for some people to develop)..
Also.. in your post below.. you make other great points.. Nate and Steve and others may actually end up proving themselves.. I try to make the point that they haven’t and people who feel they have are not always open to debate..
Also.. in your post below.. you make other great points.. Nate and Steve and others may actually end up proving themselves.. I try to make the point that they haven’t and people who feel they have are not always open to debate..But I am definitely willing to debate reasonable trades or standing pat or even wondering if another coach exists that would be a better fit.. its all reasonable stuff to debate and none of these answers are obvious to me. The only obvious thing (to me and apparently most of the team based on their post-game interviews) is that team has both room to grow and lot of growing it still needs to do. And I don’t think the current chemistry of the team should enter into anyone’s minds as a reason why we shouldn’t debate a reasonable trade suggestion
Boycott Rose Garden Concessions!!!
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/11/8/657044/boycotting-rose-garden-con
Nice talking to you...
You are right. I was mixing in some other posts with your last one there. We are on the same page for sure. This game reminded all of us we are not an elite team yet. How we get there is debatable and it is important not to place too much importance on the outcome of one game (even “the way we lost”) when the team has been showing a lot of good things as well so far.
I can go either way on trade talks. I just don’t like trade for trade sake. I have always said the Blazers should be in the position of power in any trade they make. They don’t have to trade to get better and even contend in the near future. To me anything “reasonable” has to be a proven upgrade. No prospects for prospects. No clearing roster space so guys can get minutes. It has to be a guy that will be here for 4-6 years and will make them a contender now.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Agree 100%
I don’t like people shooting down trades for supposed chemistry issues but I also don’t see a reason to make a trade just to tinker or even make things moderately better in the short term. But if anyone can find this year’s Chris Wallace to hand us someone who can really make a difference for RLEC and parts.. it’s KP..
and nice talking with you too… Go Blazers!
Boycott Rose Garden Concessions!!!
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/11/8/657044/boycotting-rose-garden-con
You're right, howlingfantods
A lot of us our somewhat uncritical at times….but that’s fandom in general. Unless you’re a Detroit Lions fan, fans want a break from the real world where they don’t have to criticize. We just want to enjoy a good game of basketball.
Tell me Oden’s weak, LMA’s soft, and Travis is a gunner that ruins games. Frankly, it doesn’t bother me. You’re never going to have a perfect team, so ya’ just gotta’ love what ya’ got or find another team.
For most of us, finding another team isn’t an option, so we’ll just love our boys and hope for the best.
That is really hideous
--jscot
for some of us
fandom is also about being able to make judgments and to analyze (not criticize) our team and the decisions that KP and staff make to keep our team strong. We don’t have to love it or leave it.. we can love it and wish for more of it and wonder to each other about how to best go about improving.. some of us find that fun! and most of us will never get the chance to actually contribute this knowledge so this forum, our water coolers, and such is our only chance to play asst. gm..
Boycott Rose Garden Concessions!!!
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/11/8/657044/boycotting-rose-garden-con
by idoltime on Dec 6, 2008 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You do realize...
that your list of the “obvious”, along with idoltime’s examples, are opinions, right? Many have been debated like crazy over the last two years here. You might be wrong about Blake. Nate might just be a championship coach. Aldridge may not be a wet tissue. Maybe he will be that single-ply tough you find in a gas station bathroom. Irritating opposing teams to no end. Time might just be all we need to see this come to fruition, it might not be.
But there is a lot of season left. Why is letting it sit a “cheerleader opinion”? And trading away guys or consolidating “obvious”? They are just two different opinions with valid arguments on each side. And they have all been expressed at this site both passionately and logically.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
by tssbro on Dec 6, 2008 12:46 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Frankly I just don't like it when people start throwing out the word haters
Pointing out obvious flaws and deficiencies gets you called out for being a hater. Even when you use rational thought, basketball knowledge and history. Everything that’s wrong with the team gets swept underneath the carpet with the word “youth” and “inexperience”. Nothing is actually wrong with the roster or players, they just need time to gel and a championship will arise. Reminds me of Bulls fans from a few years ago.
I will never get too down or too high. Just the way I am. I think the Blazers are a good team, but I’m setting my sights on a contender and not a pretender. Every comment I make about the team is relative to that path.
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
by blzrfan on Dec 6, 2008 1:01 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
cheerleaders
…..the ones in here are not that purty either……besides that they are just cheering for themselves…..if they were cheering for the Blazers, they would be chanting DEFENSE!! DEFENSE ! DEFENSE ! and I don’t care about nothing but DEFENSE! DEFENSE !
You know what, I don’t think they know that much about basketball either…..But I can’t prove it so I withdraw that statement….But do we really need guardian angels for the Blazers in here?… Well let me rephrase that….Do we really need guardian angels telling us about basketball and how we should feel about the team?……Kinda self righteous don’t you think….\
Please don’t get this wrong….I actually enjoy the debates…but this stuff about my opinion is better because I love the Blazers and therefore my perspective is correct, is quite childish….I love the Blazers too, but it’s not a blind love
'Liability on defense, is an asset on the bench" a quote from my basketball coach, who believed good defense won games and made the offense a product of it
Guess I was being
quite childish, as well….I’m always looking for ways to get younger…..I’ll check into some other options…..
'Liability on defense, is an asset on the bench" a quote from my basketball coach, who believed good defense won games and made the offense a product of it
by 67 on Dec 7, 2008 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
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