Patience Is A Virtue.
The Brandon Roy/Dwayne Wade comparison has been made many times by many people, and for good reason. The two have nearly identical offensive styles; both use a blend of attacking the rim and a deadly mid-range game to completely dismantle an opponent’s defense. They can make that defense collapse at any time, and both have a rare aptitude for consistently finding the open man that is created by their penetration. So, this evening I decided to take a gander at how the two compared as rookies.
Now, this wasn’t the first comparison I was inspired to do of a Blazer and someone with a similar style. Actually, my interest in comparing rookie seasons started with my blog post entitled “What Will Greg Oden Be?” in which I looked at Greg’s season against the player that I think his style will most resemble: Dwight Howard. As I discussed in the post, the two rookie seasons are not at all dissimilar, especially when you consider the discrepancy in minutes.
Well, when I looked at Roy and Wade side-by-side, I was amazed to find that they had EXTREMELY similar rookie seasons. In the major categories of points, rebounds, and assists, the two were nearly equal.
Roy: 16.8 / 4.4 / 4.0
Wade: 16.3 / 4.1 / 4.5
Field goal percentage and steals were also very close.
Roy: 45.6% / 1.2
Wade: 46.5% / 1.4
They put up these stats with a difference in average minutes per game of only 24 seconds. Roy shot better from 3-point range (37.7% to 30.2%), much better from the charity stripe (83.8% to 74.7%), and he also had 1.2 less turnovers per game.
While this was fun and interesting, we already know how good Brandon Roy is. Will Roy be Wade? No – Roy will be Roy. LaMarcus Aldridge, on the other hand, is still learning and developing a lot. From my perspective, he and All-Star David West play a very similar game. West is beefier and shorter, but they both have an unusual blend of low-post skills and ice from 18-feet. Right now, West is much more polished, but he has also been in NBA for three more years. Therefore, it interested me to see what West looked like earlier in his career.
In his first two years in the League, David West didn’t average much more than 18 minutes per game, so it’s hard to compare his rookie and sophomore seasons with Aldridge. However, West’s third season saw a big jump in minutes to 34 min/game, during which he scored 17.1 points and grabbed 7.4 rebounds. L.A. matched those numbers last year with 17.8 and 7.6 in his second season. We’ve yet to see what this year will bring, but after a semi-slow start, he has averaged 19.1 and 6.4 on 51.4% shooting during the last month; the reduction in rebounds no doubt a result of adding Oden.
The only remaining comparison that really stands out to me is Rudy and Manu Ginobili, mostly because of how often it has been mentioned. I don’t consider them nearly as similar as the other associations I’ve made, but to be honest, I’m still figuring Rudy out. They are both nimble 6-6 guards who can handle the ball, shoot, and pass; we can be sure of that. Manu attacks the rim more than Rudy does, but I don’t know what Manu looked like as a rookie, so I can’t make a judgment on that right now. Rudy gets the nod in 3-point percentage (39.7% to 34.5%), and it’s impossible to shoot better than Rudy from the freethrow line. In any case, they are certainly similar in enough ways that it is worth discussion.
Manu only averaged 20 min/game as a rookie, and Rudy is currently only averaging a little over 25 min/game, so I’m not sure that there are enough minutes to really read into most of the stats. Rudy is averaging 10.7 / 3.1 / 1.9 points, rebounds, and assists; Manu averaged 7.6 / 2.3 / 2.0. What is worth noting, though, is a fairly low field goal percentage by both (Rudy: 42.1%, Manu: 43.8%), as we’ve all noticed that Rudy seems to be having a little trouble with shot selection. Ginobili has since raised his career FG% a bit to 45.4%, so I considered the idea that European players may need some time to acclimate their shot to the NBA game. With this in mind, I looked up the FG%s for other notable European imports during their rookie seasons. What I found surprised me:
Dirk Nowitzki: 40.5% (career: 47.1%)
Peja Stojakovic: 37.8% (career: 45.7%)
Hedo Turkoglu: 41.2% (career: 42.8%)
Jose Calderon: 42.3% (career: 49.7%)
Tony Parker: 41.9% (career: 48.8%)
Mehmet Okur: 42.6% (career: 45.8%)
These are just a few foreign stars that came to mind, and I only looked up shooters (as opposed to big men, like Gasol, whose FG% we can’t compare to Rudy’s). I encourage anybody who feels like it to look up more players; it certainly caught my attention as soon as I saw the relative uniformity of these statistics. Regardless, whether it has anything to do with being international or everything to do with being a rookie, all of those guys shot near or worse than Rudy is shooting, and most of them have become much more efficient since. Keep in mind, too, that their FG% in recent years is better than their career numbers (the career numbers being brought down by the low rookie numbers).
So, what am I predicting? Nothing, actually. Nothing in this post, at least. Instead, I'm making a plea for patience. It is rare that a player makes a significant impact on a team in his first few years; usually only the special ones do it. We seem to be expecting that of ALL of our young guys. Our team has all the potential in the world; what’s the point of being nit-picky and impatient right now?
[I welcome anybody to critique my current comparisons or to suggest new ones with other Blazers. To me, these are the ones that particularly stand out, but I’d certainly love to look at others (possibly Batum/Prince once he gets more playing time).]
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16 comments
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Good Post
And very relevant. We’re starting 2 players, Oden and Batum, that are only 20 years old. And our first option off the bench, Rudy, is an NBA rookie. Every statistic you cited points out the obvious, which is that they will only improve. This includes LMA, Roy and Webster as well – all three of which are only staring their 3rd season. In fact, LMA is playing his first year exclusively as a PF, not a combo PF/C which he played some of last year. Give this entire group two – three more years, plus the advantage of playing together – which leads to much more consistency on team defense, and we’ll then be a competitive and dangerous team.
by Eben Calder on
Dec 29, 2008 6:46 AM PST
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Great post!
Your comparisons are very enlightening. Doesn’t mean our youngsters will turn out to be as good as Howard, Ginobili, West, etc., but at least it gives us some legitimate reason to be even more optimistic than we already are, as well as a definite call for PATIENCE!! Thanks again.
by socalblazer on
Dec 29, 2008 8:19 AM PST
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Very well done.
Thanks for taking the time to gather all that info. A definite rec.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
by TwoDeep on
Dec 29, 2008 8:31 AM PST
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So what you're saying is ...
young players get better as they get older? Huh. Interesting.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
by bfan on
Dec 29, 2008 12:33 PM PST
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Wade, Ginobli, David West, Dwight Howard Roy, Rudy, LMA, Oden & Jerryd Bayless
Sounds great to me.
by tweener on
Dec 29, 2008 12:47 PM PST
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Thanks Thack
this is the kind of post that makes BE the site for all things Blazers related! Excellent work and analysis. You are a great example of a new(er) poster who just constantly puts up quality stuff. Keep it up man, keep it up!
He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants
by Idog1976 on
Dec 29, 2008 12:48 PM PST
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Agree with Idog ..
I like your balanced, reasoned approach. Thank you, Thack.!
by jayfisher on
Dec 29, 2008 1:36 PM PST
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oden and howard are comparable centers
though it looks as if oden may have more natural offensive skills — decent FT shooting will really serve him well down the road a la moses malone.
ignacio
by ignacio on
Dec 29, 2008 4:13 PM PST
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Finally..
thanks for ending the Roy/Wade comparison with Roy is Roy. They are both good players but they do play differently. I would say Roy attacks less and shoots the mid-range more while you would switch that for Wade. Wade is quicker and faster, but Roy is a better passer (better as in he knows when and where to pass). Its funny that you compared LA with D-West, as the good people writing for At The Hive call LA, David West Lite. but its an accurate comparison… though looking at the numbers… their career stats are practically identical, with LA being a better blocker. Its exciting to make these comparisons but important to remember our players are just that ours not Orlando’s, S.A’s or New Orleans.
by SamGoody on
Dec 29, 2008 8:50 PM PST
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About the passing
Roy is good, but he’s not in Wade’s class yet on this front, either. I’ve seen Flash play two or three hundred games now, and passing is one of his strongest cards. Not saying he’s Stockton/Nash, but getting the ball to an open teammate on any part of the floor is a MAJOR part of his game — quite a bit more so than Roy. Although someone like Kobe has had to struggle to integrate his game with his team, Wade has always been able to do the one-on-five thing when needed, but still play an intrinsically team game. The only time he failed to do this was last year when he was injured most of the year, the entire Heat team disintegrated, and he was all they had. This team/passing approach is a big reason DWade was able to lead the Heat into the playoffs from his very first year (without Shaq), and raise the Heat’s playoff success level year-by-year as he was elevating his own game. I know it’s sacrilegious to say so, but Wade’s game now is about on a par with Jordan’s in his prime. Roy’s style is not, and never will be, Wade’s, but it doesn’t have to be. Great playmaking/scoring guards like Frazier, Robertson, and others had games much more like Roy’s than does Wade, and they created great success for their teams.
by blazerwizard on
Dec 31, 2008 4:02 PM PST
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Brandon isn't as athletic as Wade
put it this way, every time you see Broy make an amazing drive to the basket, Wade is doing the same thing only he is doing it above the rim. Every layup for roy is highlight dunk for wade. not that that stuff matters THAT much though. Roy has the 3 pt. shot going for him. Wade is a very good mid range jumpshooter but his range hasn’t extended beyond the arc yet. Brandon is learning how to sell the foul and get calls by falling on the ground or yelling really loud (A.I. actually has been doing this for quite a while before wade) but he doesn’t get the respect like wade does. both are decent passers, I’d say wade is a better defender but mostly because he seems to have and play with so much more energy game to game.
The Blazers as a whole are far more like my wife than like me in the sense of their physicality on defense.
-Dave
by chrischa on
Dec 29, 2008 10:48 PM PST
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A.I doesn't get credit
A.I. doesn’t get credit like Wade, because he doesn’t make the rest of his team better. Both can take over a game, but only Wade leads and inspires a team.
by boppitywop on
Dec 31, 2008 11:46 AM PST
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Oden and Howard .. triple doubles?
As both Thack and Ignacio (a few posts before this) mention, Greg and Dwight Howard seem comparable at the start of their NBA careers.
One thing I want to highlight that might make Greg even better is that Greg is a very good passer. Because of his passing, I look forward to Greg becoming team leader in triple doubles perhaps in two or three years. He should regularly score double doubles because ten rebounds and ten points should be easy for him.
Add to that his passing and assist skills and my guess is that he should get a triple double more often than any other Blazer. Others, for example Brandon, can score and lead the team. But also getting double figures in both assists and rebounds at the same time might be harder to come by.
by jayfisher on
Dec 29, 2008 11:14 PM PST
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very good comparisons
Activate Shavlik Randolph
by appel82 on
Dec 30, 2008 6:54 PM PST
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