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The Case Against Travis

With Martell returning soon, Nate has a dilemma concerning how to disperse minutes at the forward position. The wisdom in Blazerdom (thanks in part to Mike Barrett comments a few Monday nights ago) seems to be that Channing Frye is bound to lose minutes.

 

The logic goes like this: If Nic Batum and Martell share the bulk of the minutes at the three, Travis will back up LA at the four, which in turn, would eliminate Frye from the rotation.

 

But is this the right adjustment?

 

The question when Martell comes back isn’t Martell or Travis. Its Travis or Channing. In short, who’s the best back up power forward? Comparing their stats so far this season cannot be done straight across because Channing plays 12 fewer minutes than Travis on average each night, approximately 27 minutes to 15 minutes. Therefore, their per-48-minute average is worth considering as well as what the team needs from their second-unit power forward

.

Channing’s per-48-minute rebounding average is greater, 9.6 to Travis’ 7.2. Offensive boards alone is Channing's again, 3.3 to 1.5. Consider, too, what the Blazers need the most from the back-up four spot. The Blazers are 21st in the league in total rebounds, while division rivals Utah is 17th and Denver is 13th.

 

Looking to the playoffs - and we all know they are inevitable - boards will be like gold against teams like Dallas (2nd in the league in total boards), the Lakers (1st in the league in total rebounds), and the Rockets (7th in the league in total rebounds).

 

Travis and Channing’s per-48-minute scoring average is nearly a wash, 19.2 and 18.8, respectively. Channing’s field goal percentage and free throw percentage are slightly higher than Travis’.

 

Travis’ three-point field goals per game increases (as do the attempts), but will that be needed with Martell coming back, Batum shooting 42% from behind the arc, and even Channing himself shooting 38% behind the arc this season? (Albeit Channing is 5-13 and Travis is 27-54, but again, Travis plays double the amount of minutes.)

 

I have to admit that the per-48-minute stat has always been suspect to me. It never seems to actually come into play, but it can reveal nuggets of insight about players who get an unequal amount of minutes, which in this case I think it does, particularly in the rebounding category.

 

Defensively, when it comes to guarding others fours Channing has two inches and nearly 40 pounds on Travis. Travis’ perimeter defense is better, but how often will that come into play guarding other fours? Most likely, the players Travis is guarding now, will be defended by a combination of Martell and Batum.

 

Someone is the current rotation will be sitting more when Martell returns. Unfortunately for Travis, he doesn’t seem to provide the Blazers with anything unique as far as shooting goes, while Channing looks to be able to snag valuable rebounds.

 

Good luck, Nate! You earn your pay!

 

 

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The funny thing is Travis plays further in on offense

j\k
sort of

Im partial to Travis but you got the debate right on I think.
Travis = better 3pt shooter than Frye
Unfortunately for him Travis is the bizarro Shawn Marion.
Pretty shot, could chase down rebounds but doesn’t as much.
I think he is important as a backup for our next injury.

Frye is good at fouling opposing centers, and better at choosing his shots. But when the clock is winding down I would rather have the ball in Travis’ hands. He’s much more consistent.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I think many BEdgers would paint anyone as better than Trout because they simply want him traded after watching a crazy run like the one he made against NY last night taking so many shots as if he is Kobe.

Still, he’s generally pretty good all things considered.

by staylost on Dec 2, 2008 7:19 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Another + for Travis

He would be good at guarding big men who like to play outside. This allows the bigs to stay closer to the basket on D.

by staylost on Dec 2, 2008 7:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Troutlaw can hit big shots too

I have not been impressed with Frye at all this year. He is pump faking too much and taking shots off the dribble which are not good instead of his much higher percentage catch and shoot.

I think Outalw is more valuable to this team. Besides, a ton of teams go small with their bench so height wouldn’t be a major advantage. neither of them are really good at defense, i just think Travis brings more to the table offensively.

Woof

by Charles Barkley McLovin on Dec 2, 2008 7:27 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

They bring different things to the table

Travis is great off the bench because in games like tonight when the offense gets a little slow he can come in and beat his man to get things rolling, while frye is more of a spot up shooter so far this season (which we have many of: Rudy, Blake, Martell…). Travis has really been able to mix things up for us offensively off the bench even though he lacks many other skills. I would still love to see that rumoured Conley trade happen though….

"Great Oden's raven!" - Ron Burgandy

by danevan on Dec 2, 2008 7:36 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Throw 'em both in a deal with RLEC

and get a real backup 4-5 who can bang, he’ll come in handy next May

by two4larue on Dec 2, 2008 7:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

sameold sameold

can batum make ANY baskets while tightly guarded in the last 2:00 of a game? can martell? (hes never shown that ability before.) and i like them both.

ignacio

by ignacio on Dec 2, 2008 7:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

yup

Travis=CLUTCH

can’t teach that, can’t practice that and only Travis has that.

"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08

by SpyderRyder on Dec 2, 2008 8:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Travis is better than that

but your right that he is lacking in these areas. He can stay as he is and remain a great bench player, or he can work harder and be a defensive threat that can be a high option on offense.

by staylost on Dec 2, 2008 8:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Travis is much better at D than Channing

At least Travis can stay in front of power forwards. Channing gets beat on D in every way possible. I agree Travis doesn’t always look good defending guys that are close to his size and just as athletic but at least he can stay between power forwards and the basket. Plus he can swat a couple shot down here and there.

I know what the rebuttle to this is; Trout will get over powered by other 4s. Sometimes this will happen but I think it is way better than the alternative. And I think Outlaws rebounding will improve as he is closer to the basket.

Dose anyone remember the song 123 go Rip City?

by 123_G.O._RipCity on Dec 2, 2008 9:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Travis' defense

his help defense is above average….his man defense is sub par however.

Honor Terry Porter

by Philthyanimal on Dec 2, 2008 9:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually Travis has both

but dont take my word for it take Nate’s

"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08

by SpyderRyder on Dec 2, 2008 9:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nate also called Luke Ridnour the next Steve Nash.

Motivational tool, Positive thinking, anti-Phil Jackson.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 3, 2008 12:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

you can pick and choose what you want to believe

but then you have to apply the same article to Oden then as well because he said much the same things about him.

If Nate was still coaching Luke he may of had a chance, but are you actually trying to compare the to situations? EVERYONE in Seattle the last few seasons saw marked declines in their development and stats, you and I know that was a horrible situation.

"Damn the Blazers. Damn them to hell. They are working the rest of the league like a speed bag." - Bill Simmons 6/26/08

by SpyderRyder on Dec 3, 2008 1:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe.

I just think Nate likes to say positive things about his players to ecourage them.

He said Martel could be a lockdown defender. He said LaMarcus could be a Kevin Garnett type impact player. He said Outlaw could become a Tracy McGrady type threat (or something like that). He says a lot of things about his players that border on reality. It’s not a bad thing, it’s a just a coaching style.

And yes, I think Nate says positive things about Oden to help encourage him, even they are might not be completely true.

by Nick Van Excellent on Dec 3, 2008 3:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Typical BS

at the very least, Travis is as good as webster on defense. Considering that Travis can guard oppsing PF’s as well as SF’s, it’s arguable that travis is better on defense, certainly more versatile.

And Travis is CLEARLY a better rebounder then Martell. It’s not close.

Then add the fact that travis is a better ball-handler and was better last year in assists.

He also shoots a higher percentage on 3pt baskets then Martell, and that was supposed to be martell’s strength.

There’s a whole bunch of faith around here in Martell when he returns. It’s faith because to this point, Martell hasn’t demonstrated much of what so many expect from him on the floor. He’s passive on offense, inconsistent (at best) on defense, and a weak rebounder.

by moldorf on Dec 3, 2008 9:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

if the game is on the line who takes the shot?

assuming our closing lineup is similar to…

Blake/Sergio
Roy
Rudy
Trout
LMA/Greg

what option would trout be? I don’t even think he would have the opportunity to shine in clutch moments like last year. You could put Trout at 3rd option at best…but more than likely he will be the 4th option…only higher than our PGs.

Honor Terry Porter

by Philthyanimal on Dec 2, 2008 10:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

with the game on the line

i would put the ball in travises hands any day of the week over greg, lma, blake, or sergio, and it would be arguable with even rudy at this point. lma would only get the ball against rasheed, where for some reason he akshualy seams tu care and excells against compatition he looks up to. travis might strugal during long stretches at times, but he plays well during long stretches at times, AND hes clutch when the games on the line. i kan still recal a game that lma lost by taking a three(albiet open) early in the chot clock that would have tied the game late in the forth. travis has a freakin diary of klutch on youtube, with only roy as a rival on this team. lma and greg are not even close

by maid tu rek on Dec 3, 2008 11:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

even then...hes the 3rd option

Is it really that important to have a clutch player as a third option?

Honor Terry Porter

by Philthyanimal on Dec 3, 2008 4:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

jaw drops

Yes!
What are you thinking.
Come playoffs Roy will be mobbed in crunch time.
Whoever you think the second option is will be well defended too. A fifth option would be wonderful because then we will have a huge chance to score at the end of the game.

by staylost on Dec 3, 2008 7:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Off on the rebounds

While our total rebound #’s are bad we play a slow pace. We are 5th in the league in rebounding differential(ours vs. our opponents), second in the league in total rebounding % and first in the league in offensive rebounds.

by boppitywop on Dec 2, 2008 8:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

We grab a lot of rebounds for as slow a pace as we play.

honor rasheed wallace

by Cablinasian on Dec 2, 2008 10:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to want to see Travis go...

But I’m getting to the point where I can’t stand to watch Frye’s defense either. I’m ready for Martell to come back, Batum to play major minutes, and neither Frye or Outlaw come off the bench. Why intentionally take on the heartache? Nate could simply shorten the bench rotation to Batum/Webster, Sergio, Pryz, and Rudy. Go small and force the other team to match up. Put Outloaw/Channing/Diogu in if and only if the other team goes beefy and the Blazers can’t outscore them.

Buck Williams for the hall of fame

by Phizbin on Dec 2, 2008 8:45 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The case against Channing

I had high hopes for Channing this year and with the exception of one or two performances he has really let me down. I can’t take many more shots from the top of the arc with his foot on the line, that is the worst shot you can take.

I think Channings defense is abysmal, it is like he has cinder blocks for feet on the defensive end of the floor.

I’ll give it to him that he is rebounding OK, but if that is his specialty we need even more effort on the glass.

I think we are going to see that Travis’ place, at least this year, is backing up LMA at the four and playing a little three when we need a clutch basket.

Dose anyone remember the song 123 go Rip City?

by 123_G.O._RipCity on Dec 2, 2008 9:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

By I can't take many more shots

I mean I can’t stand watching Channing take many more….

Dose anyone remember the song 123 go Rip City?

by 123_G.O._RipCity on Dec 2, 2008 9:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Travis doesn't need to play D...

that’s what GregZilla, LMA, are four…our bigs hold the court, and the perimeter needs to stay in position…

Travis is an offensive spark because if worst comes to worst, we know he can get a shot up…

PLUS, he’s LMA and Broy’s best friend…we can’t under-estimate BFFs with these young player’s mentality.

CHEMISTRY = TRAVIS

by broyposse on Dec 2, 2008 10:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

lol

thats mest up but really funny at the same time

by maid tu rek on Dec 3, 2008 11:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Channing > Travis

I used to be a Travis believer, but since the beginning of this year, I just cannot bring myself to like Travis’ game. I think in the long run, who REALLY would you have to back up LMA? Also for that matter down the road possibly G.O.? You can’t expect Pryz to stick around forever when GoDen breaks out of his shell and is playing 35-40 mins a game. Channing loves the city and is a classy guy I want on this team for a long time. Plus he likes the Buffalo Gap which is just another + for the Frye guy.

by Shribby on Dec 2, 2008 11:14 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

So your argument is that you would like to be friends with Frye?

I like both of their personalities, but:

Frye is not the answer to the backup center problem if Pryz leaves (at least not for a championship team).

I get really mad a Trouts game sometimes (quite often) too. With his long legs it would only take one more step to be airing out for a dunk. At least he’d start getting fouls called on other players even if he misses. If he is a game changer then listen to this. Mid range jumpers are not momentum sucking. Threes (which he is good at) and dunks (which he is good at) are.

Besides that though I would definately rather have Outlaw backing LMA. He plays with more heart and as a backup can do a lot more things. In the long run I would rather have a tougher backup PF added to our team maybe at the loss of Frye. Outlaw can then be inserted from SG to PF as needed. Some games he won’t play. Some he will play most of the game. In times of injury/playoffs he will become extremely valuable long term with this versatility.

Really, I’d love to keep Frye too. But he brings less to the table, even when it comes to consistency.

by staylost on Dec 3, 2008 8:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Frye also brings

injury cover at center, which Travis doesn’t. If we don’t have Channing, we probably want to carry a 3rd string center.

The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.

by jscot on Dec 3, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not the kind you need in post season

If you want that your going to need a bruiser

by staylost on Dec 3, 2008 7:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Presumably

in the post season, if one of our centers was out injured, the other would play about 40 minutes, which means Channing might give us 8 at center. By then, Greg should be in condition for that many minutes.

So Frye would be adequate for that purpose. It’s not that you want to go into the playoffs with one of your centers out, but Channing gives you a chance to survive if it happens.

Do you like asparagus?

by jscot on Dec 4, 2008 10:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe Consolidation Works

Maybe the one poster is onto something. Since both Outlaw and Frye have strengths and weaknesses, and since the Batum/Webster/Rudy scenerio seems to be the future SF combination, perhaps we do swap Outlaw/Frye for the “right” backup PF and just consolidate the position.

by Eben Calder on Dec 3, 2008 5:04 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

it just depends what you want

if you want a jumpshooting foul machine, put in channing, if you want a jumpshooting machine + the occasional block shot or hustle play, put in travis.
right now both have big enough holes in their game that i would be hesitant to put either against a guy like Odom.

by appel82 on Dec 3, 2008 7:54 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Travis in the fourth

Where this really matters, of course, is wins and losses, and fourth quarters are often the difference.

Travis is shooting 39% on field goals and 65% on free throws in the 4th quarters this year, He doesn’t do the other things—pass, defend, and rebound—to compensate for this.

by Hulk on Dec 3, 2008 8:16 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Portland is an awesome 4th quarter team this year

In the past, as long as I have been alive, Portland has been a 3rd quarter team. We score a lot in the 2nd/3rd and then hope the other team doesn’t catch up. You would have been more convincing then.
4th quarter however is no longer the problem. We are dominant in the 4th quarter.
The problem is keeping going strong throughout the other quarters. If Travis can help this, he is still important.

I totally agree that he should set Marion as his example (not Kobe) and be a boards/assists/blocks/backup scorer monster. He has the body for it, but he just doesn’t push it as part of his game.

That being said he grabbed at least one very important rebound to keep the Blazers going in the close 4th in NY.

by staylost on Dec 3, 2008 8:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

hey may have the body for it, but

does he have the lungs for it?

Honor Terry Porter

by Philthyanimal on Dec 3, 2008 4:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I’d pick Travis because at power forward he can change the flow of the game. He’s a very difficult matchup at that position. I like that he’s different to Aldridge and offers a different puzzle for the opposition to solve.

http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/

by NBR on Dec 4, 2008 1:08 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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