Taking Stock and Getting to the Point
By the end of the week the Blazers will have played 25% of their games. I think this is a good time to take stock of how the team and its individual players are doing. I am not a huge stat freak, but stats can often help confirm general impressions or suggest that maybe we need to take a closer look. Hollinger's PER (player efficiency ratings) are probably as good of place to look as any. Here is the link: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fhollinger%2fstatistics
I think the best way is to look at the player rankings by position.
Player, PER, Position Rank
BRoy, 23.50, 4
Rudy, 16.86, 16
Blake, 15.15, 26
Sergio, 13.46, 35
Nic, 18.01, 8
Trout, 14.23, 23
LA, 18.09, 16
Frye, 12.13, 54
Oden, 18.35, 10
Pryz, 18.43, 9
Not surprisingly, Broy is our top ranked player and Rudy is an outstanding backup. At center, Gregzylla is an outstanding combo with both being in the top ten amongst all centers in the league. The most surprising stat is the fact that Nic ranks #8 out of all the SF in the league. Trout is a respectable, but not outstanding 23rd. LA's ranking of 16th among PFs confirms what most us have noticed that he has been playing a bit below expectations prior to Sunday's breakout against the Pistons. The stats confirm what many have pointed out, the position of greatest potential concern is PG. Blake is at 26 and Sergio is at 35.
Given Batum's outstanding performance and the imminent return of Martell, I think it makes sense to leave Nic in the starting line-up. The rest of the starters are used to him, and he is good at contributing without taking many shots. I suggest bringing Martell into the second unit at the 3. He played well with Rudy in his one exhibition game. As Martell's stroke and conditioning return, Nate will have to think about who we wants to play in the fourth, and whether or not he wants to move Webster back into the starting five.
Trout can slide over and take most of the back-up minutes at the 4. He may have trouble with some larger 4s, but he did well against most of them last year. Playing alongside Pryz will help compensate for his weakness on the boards. Fry, who has the lowest ranking of any of our rotation players, can move to the bench and and fill in in spots at #3 center and #3 PF.
Playing Trout and Webster with Pryz, Rudy, and Sergio on the second unit will increase fire power and speed. This group should push the pace and try to wear down the other team.
This brings us to the PG position. Portland has three PGs and none of them have a complete game:
Blake: good ball handler, good decision maker, good passer, good spot-up shooter, average defender, lousy off the dribble, below average at creating his own shot.
Sergio: good ball handler, highly creative but still learning to make good decisions, excellent passer, average defender, below average driver, lousy finisher at the rim, average spot -up shooter, below average at creating his own shot.
Bayless: we haven't seen enough of JBay to really know what we have. We can speculate based on college, summer league, and a few minutes of garbage time, but we don't really know much. Good ball handler, very limited experience as a true distributor, decent passer but will no doubt make a lot of mistakes early on. Floor vision is unknown. Spectacular off the dribble, able to finish and or get to the line. His history suggests that he will be good at creating his own shot and at least decent as a spot -up shooter. He is very quick and aggressive on defense. Probably, JBay will ultimately be the best of the three at on ball pressure and keeping his guy out of the lane.
Maybe Blake is good enough. Maybe Sergio will learn how to shoot and drive to the basket. Maybe JBay will become a competent enough distributor and spot-up shooter to complement his other strengths. Maybe, maybe, maybe.
If the Blazer's are going to make a trade, I think this is the spot that needs the most attention. My hunch is that JBay stands a good chance of being the long term solution as the starting PG. BRoy's unusual skills seem like they could cover for a lot of JBay's limitations at this point. However, Nate hates mistakes and JBay will no doubt make a ton of them. Sergio is obviously a good fit for the second unit. He is the best at pushing the tempo and he and Rudy play so well together. KP and Nate are the ones who are watching JBay at practice. They obviously know what they are doing and I will go along with whatever decisions they make. I am curious to here others responses.
By the way this is my first Fanpost. I have been commenting for a while, but this is my maiden post. Any Rec's would be appreciated. Sorry for rattling my tin cup.
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Comments
Welcome to the Bedge
I for one am just fine with our point guards. Blake IS a good enough point guard to take us to the promise land. He plays alongside Brandon so well. They are a perfect fit for each other.
I was going to rec it until I read the last paragraph where you explicitly ask for rec's
Otherwise, it’s a good analysis. I think it proves the point that we don’t need a Gerald Wallace as much as we need a good point guard.
The problem is that good point guards are harder to come by. The easiest way might be to draft and groom one. Is that J-Bay? Is that somebody else we will acquire through a trade or the draft? Who knows.
But it makes it more likely that we won’t be getting our future PG soon. If it’s Rex, then we are going to have to wait a year or two before he gets the playing time and is able to mature into that type of starting caliber PG. The only way I see us landing our future PG is if we end up getting Hinrich for RLEC. But even then, is he good enough? Probably, but we also know that his ceiling is set, and it doesn’t excite me the way I think about Rex playing in 3-4 years. It’s a tough situation, wanting instant gratification and knowing it’s not easy to get.
by Bust a Bucket on Dec 1, 2008 6:36 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I agree with your points. It is going to be interesting. I wonder if any of Sergio’s fans will respond to him being ranked 35th among PGs? I also wonder if anyone is going to comment about how amazing it is that Batum is ranked ahead of TPrince?
by upper left corner on Dec 1, 2008 6:45 PM PST up reply actions
Good point about Batum...
Before the season, I would have been thrilled to get Battier or Prince. But I honestly don’t think they’d help us that much now. Sure, they would make us better this year and probably next year. But after that, Batum will be 21 years old and as good or better than those guys in their 30s. I really feel we are set at the SF position with Martell, Batum and Travis. In fact I think we are set with Martell and Batum… and Travis is just good trade bait.
Batum has been the surprise of the season so far for me. I love his game.
by Bust a Bucket on Dec 1, 2008 6:54 PM PST up reply actions
Again, I agree, but I think Trout may have a role at back-up PF.
In my main post I suggested that Trout would be a significant upgrade over Frye at the 4. Particularly if Nate turns the second unit into more of an up-tempo group. What do you think?
by upper left corner on Dec 1, 2008 7:00 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, there could be a good role for Travis as the backup PF
But will he be satisfied with 18 minutes per game long term? I would assume that LMA will get at least 30 minutes per game over the next several years if he’s healthy. That only leave 18 minutes at backup PF. If Outlaw is willing to take that role and accept it, then great. But I think he wants to be more of a focal point on a team than that. We’ll see.
by Bust a Bucket on Dec 1, 2008 7:43 PM PST up reply actions
He could probably steal some minutes as a 3
And Aldridge can probably play a few minutes a game at the 5, freeing up some minutes for Outlaw at the 4. Not to mention the inevitable injuries that our roster is built to withstand because of players like Aldridge, Outlaw, Rudy, Roy, Frye, Bayless, and Webster, who have, to greater or lesser degrees, position flexibility.
Travis Outlaw is an alien, but in a good way.
Awesome Graphic was provided by CIC, because he felt like he should be hazed.
by Clevelander among roses on Dec 1, 2008 7:50 PM PST up reply actions
18 minules!
Aldridge, I believe, plays the longest minutes of any Blazers (even when he’s in a shooting slump). Aldridge often plays long minutes with the second squad. I think this is because he is a consistent and careful ball handler/defender. His defense alone helps shore up the crazy euros + Travis (all whom I love). With Pryz in there too, we have a tougher second unit.
Not saying that Trout wouldn’t be a great PF backup, just saying that the way the Blazers have set everything up makes it more likely to be 12-14 minutes. If you take those minutes and add on 4-6 minutes as the third option SF you can sorta squeeze eight minutes out of there.
For me, as agrees with the original poster, the reality is Outlaw or Frye against one another rather than Batum/Webster/Outlaw. I really like the idea of keeping Outlaw and continuing to develop him in the backup role originally suggested because of his versitility in case of injury.
Without Outlaws three point shooting of all things we would not have such a great 3pt squad. He can guard fours. He can take to ball to the hoop (but will he). He is not afraid of last second shots. He is a great handyman to have in reserve.
I also agree overall that unless he cleans up his game (passing & rebounding) he must be behind Batum & LMA. (I’m not plugging Webster in until we see if he can keep up with the high bar everyone has set for him.)
the minutes
are the problem….No matter how you slice it….who deserves the minutes….there will be odd men out or at least not playing much…….a problem more for the players than the team…..
rotation players likely not Blazers in 2010
Sergio, Fry, Web or Outlaw and possibly Bayless (he has a long way to go as a point guard…it may not be in the genes)
Of course a willingness to ride the pines is a factor…..
'Liability on defense, is an asset on the bench" a quote from my basketball coach, who believed good defense won games and made the offense a product of it
by 67 on Dec 2, 2008 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
that's it 67
That’s the variable that we really can’t gauge, unless we are Quick or Freeman, and even they might not be close enough to the situation to really know.
I submit that this team is more willing to sit and wait for a chance, and root for their teammate, more so than nearly any other professional team I’ve ever seen. I’d like to have this sense confirmed, by anyone who is close enough to the action.
If they all stick together, they will all get paid – going over the cap is not a problem for Mr. Allen. But when will the ego look to the other bench and say, “If I was on that team I could play 36 minutes and make a real difference for them”? How long until that happens?
If the answer is Never, then we have an extraordinary situation here and we will probably win championships for many years in a row. – Elgin.
He who life can no longer surprise raises his eyes, beholds a planet unknown. - Peter Gabriel
Sergio Fan
His PER doesn’t really tell the full story. It was after his agent demanded a trade that he has been performing much better.
by TheGreatDane17 on Dec 1, 2008 9:03 PM PST up reply actions
Yeh good first post!
LoL ’cept for asking for recs :-p
but that aside, welcome to the Bedge.
That is really hideous
--jscot
+1
On the title of your post.
Travis Outlaw is an alien, but in a good way.
Awesome Graphic was provided by CIC, because he felt like he should be hazed.
by Clevelander among roses on Dec 1, 2008 6:44 PM PST reply actions
Whoops, meant to go under Bust a Bucket's comment
Travis Outlaw is an alien, but in a good way.
Awesome Graphic was provided by CIC, because he felt like he should be hazed.
by Clevelander among roses on Dec 1, 2008 6:45 PM PST up reply actions
no offense at all...
just cost yourself a couple rec’s. No biggie; it still looks like you’ll get 5.
by Bust a Bucket on Dec 1, 2008 6:55 PM PST up reply actions
Dude, no offense possible
Just like I don’t get offended when someone knocks on my door to sell me magazines. I just make a point not to buy things from adults knocking on my door whether I want what they are selling or not, as well as not rec’ing if someone asks for a rec, because I don’t want to encourage the behavior.
For the record, though, I like the rest of your post.
Travis Outlaw is an alien, but in a good way.
Awesome Graphic was provided by CIC, because he felt like he should be hazed.
by Clevelander among roses on Dec 1, 2008 7:31 PM PST up reply actions
For the Record, lets call it a turnover by the rookie! : )
by upper left corner on Dec 1, 2008 7:37 PM PST up reply actions
Or an off-balance Outlaw jumpshot with 10 left on the playclock
It went in, no harm, but man…
Travis Outlaw is an alien, but in a good way.
Awesome Graphic was provided by CIC, because he felt like he should be hazed.
by Clevelander among roses on Dec 1, 2008 7:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He's not the 2nd best player but...
Pryz has been the most valuable this year outside of Brandon. He has performed at a high level…improved offensively…set the bar high for Greg…been a strong and consistent contributor..and has taken whatever role he was given without any complaints.
Honor Terry Porter
Pryz has definitely shown some game this year
He seems to be an improved player all around, but especially offensively. I wonder if he benefits from the coaching being given to Greg, or if having another big, physical guy like Greg to practice against has helped make Joel better. Or has Joel just done it on his own, maybe, as a natural progression of his game that has nothing to do with the fact that Oden is here?
Travis Outlaw is an alien, but in a good way.
Awesome Graphic was provided by CIC, because he felt like he should be hazed.
by Clevelander among roses on Dec 1, 2008 8:45 PM PST up reply actions
I would say
Having Greg allows Pryz to play all out since he isnt worried about fouling out.
Honor Terry Porter
by Philthyanimal on Dec 1, 2008 9:17 PM PST up reply actions
Fun fact
The last four NBA champs have had either Posey or Bowen on their teams. Each of these guys have had PERs consistently well below average (15 is considered an average player). These guys were not drags on their teams but in fact a very valuable role players who contributed a ton to their teams.
PER is great, and I use it a lot. It helps to compare two similarly situated players within the constraints of what PER demonstrates (which is statistical production heavily tilted toward scoring, and secondarily towards defensive stats including rebounds steals and blocks, but doesn’t consider good positional defense). What I don’t think it does is help you aggregate a good team just by pulling together the highest average PER for each position. For one thing, PER is partly determined by how many possessions the player uses, so it awards gunning. You can only build a team up so far based on stats that rewards gunning — see Melo/AI era nuggets.
I hope KP isn’t thinking the way you’re outlining things — looking for the position of weakest average PER and trying to fill that hole. That’s kind of like the drafting strategy of drafting to fill needs, instead of looking for BPA.
I hope what KP is doing is trying to figure out the absolute best player we could possibly get with our fistful of expiring contracts, good cheap young roleplayers and secondary guys, and shiny beads, no matter what position they play. Not because I think we have needs that need filling but because we have assets that we can’t use to their fullest (RLEC, the players 9-12 on the bench), and to let them wither on the vine would effectively be GM malpractice.
by howlingfantods on Dec 1, 2008 9:01 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Interesting post......
You are obviously well informed, and I think some of your critique has merit. I certainly agree that PER is not the end-all be-all of player evaluation and minute allocation for GMs and coaches. However, as I went through this exercise of looking at all of our rotation players and seeing their rank by position, I was struck by how well their relative ranks matched my more subjective impressions.
You say that Hollinger’s formula rewards “gunners.” That may be so, but that doesn’t explain the whole story. It doesn’t explain the very high score Batum has earned. He is the farthest you could get from being a gunner. Neither GO or Pryz are gunners and yet their scores are strong.
I am not trying to defend Hollinger or his formula, and I don’t want to be defensive.
However, you said, “I hope KP isn’t thinking the way you outlined things — looking for the position of weakest average PER and trying to fill that hole. That is kind of like ….. …drafting to fill needs, instead of looking for BPA.” This comment strikes me as crazy in the current context. Ignoring roster balance and positional strength when you are trying to fine tune a stacked roster seems imperative. We already have two excellent shooting guards, would you counsel KP to trade for another SG? Given that you can only have five players on the floor at a time that seems like the height of folly. BPA makes sense when you are trying to rebuild and stockpile talent. It does not make sense to me in the current situation where we contemplating whether or not to make one last big move.
If you don’t like my approach to handling Martell’s return, what is your alternative? Do you disagree with my assessment that PG is our area of greatest weakness? Just askin’ …….
by upper left corner on Dec 2, 2008 3:48 AM PST up reply actions
What wins rings
In the NBA, the team that wins rings aren’t the teams with the fewest holes, it’s the teams with the best stars.
We’re in a position where we have one all-star caliber player (Roy), and a few maybes. If Oden and LMA develop like we hope, then maybe that’s enough to win a championship.
But if KP goes out looking for players, and we can find star bigs or swings but only role playing points (which I think is pretty likely given the state of the league), then I think we go with the bigs or the swings and figure out a rotation/mix that works later. Which is pretty much what KP did drafting Rudy — Rudy and Roy are both natural 2s, and KP didn’t sweat blood convincing Rudy to come out to the US just to have a good backup to Roy.
by howlingfantods on Dec 2, 2008 7:48 AM PST up reply actions
BTW, another option that I like
is trading for picks. RLEC is a big chip for teams positioning for 2010, but some teams are going to lose the 2010 sweepstakes. Trading that chip to a team who loses the free agency sweepstakes and ends up with a hollow roster and a losing 2011 campaign doesn’t sound like a bad play.
by howlingfantods on Dec 2, 2008 7:53 AM PST up reply actions
IMHO buying superstars is very over-rated.....
I realize that rings and superstars have been synonymous since the Bird/Magic era. But plenty of teams have had two or even three stars and have not won. Chemistry, style of play, and role players are vitally important. I would argue that the Blazers have their core stars BRoy, Oden, and LMA. It is possible that LMA and Oden will not develop as we hope. If they don’t then the team may not get its rings. I think they will and I think the team has an excellent chance to win multiple titles.
I don’t think the Blazers need to make huge blockbuster trades. Superstars that are available tend to be older and tend to be expensive. Sacrificing two or three young talents for an aging star may make sense in some situations, but teams frequently overpay and regret the trade down the road (see Kidd/Harris). If the Blazers can find the right deal for the right PG at the right price, I would be all for pulling the trigger. But we need to be very careful.
Personally, I would love to see the Blazers get to the top mostly with our own home-grown talent and by playing team basketball rather than superstar isolations. I loved the way the 1977 team played and would love to see that kind of ball again.
by upper left corner on Dec 2, 2008 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
Again, the position we're in
isn’t that we’re looking to make a trade because our future isn’t bright enough. We need to make a trade because otherwise, we allow good tradeable assets to be wasted – (RLEC, players 9-12 on the bench).
In KP I trust, and I believe that KP will definitely consider all the things you mentioned – chemistry, windows of opportunity, and so forth. I don’t think the Harris/Kidd deal is a good example since many many folks (including yours truly) thought that the Nets were getting away with a steal and I’m sure if you search the archives at this site, you’ll find posts from me screaming my frustration that we didn’t pull the trigger on the rumored 3 team deal that involved us sending away Jack and Outlaw and getting back Devin.
And whatever, I’ll concede the Harris/Kidd deal if I can come back with the Hornacek/Perry/Lang combo for Barkley. Come to think of it, some folks said that Phoenix was making a mistake then since Barkley was a washed up, too old, too short, has been.
by howlingfantods on Dec 2, 2008 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think we have any sort of fundamental disagreement
I agree that it makes sense to try to maximize our resources, and RLEC and our stacked bench is a definite asset. Over time it will be difficult to keep all of our young bench guys happy. If we can get the right deal at the right price for the right guy we should do it. But I would rather see us do nothing and use the money to resign our young guys than over-pay for an over the hill star with a huge paycheck and an over-sized ego. I fear that such a deal would mess with our chemistry and send the wrong message to our young guys.
The bottom line: in KP we trust. He certainly has had the Midas touch on everything to this point. I certainly won’t second guess any decision he makes. I have enjoyed our conversation……
by upper left corner on Dec 2, 2008 3:05 PM PST up reply actions
Two points:
1) I guess this is a fundamental point I don’t think folks recognize enough: “I would rather see us do nothing and use the money to resign our young guys than over-pay for an over the hill star with a huge paycheck and an over-sized ego”
The point is that recognizing the cap savings from RLEC doesn’t do anything to help us pay for our young guys; we have bird rights for our guys. We don’t need to worry about the cap in terms of signing them. Our only limitations are Paul Allen’s willingness to pay (very very high when we’re winning) and making sure that we don’t sign cripplingly bad deals (like Raef’s contract for instance).
So it’s not an either or between two good options. Sitting on our cap space or RLEC would be like not using a lottery pick. It’d be negligence of the worst sort.
2) Again, my main point is that we need to go for best player that we can get. If the choice is between a star 2 guard and a decent 1, I’d rather go for the star 2 guard and figure out a way to make it work. And to me, it doesn’t matter that 1 is our weakest position, since I think in a year or two, our platoon of 1s will be decent enough — I have faith that one of Sergio or Petteri or Bayless will pan out, or we’ll be able to pick up decent free agents chasing rings (andre miller next year?).
People learned the wrong lesson from Trader Bob. The problem wasn’t that he got too many stars. The problem is that he got a bunch of stars who were either overrated or obviously on the downside, or in a couple of cases both. The team he assembled would’ve been awesome in 1994; it wasn’t awesome in 2001.
When I state my belief that KP is going to go after a star player, I’m going to stipulate that KP is much smarter than Trader Bob, and that KP is going to go after underrated humble guys like Tayshaun or Danny Granger and not the typical Trader Bob type targets like, say, Stephon or Jermaine.
by howlingfantods on Dec 2, 2008 4:31 PM PST up reply actions
thats only true bc
the Refs are biased.
Honor Terry Porter
by Philthyanimal on Dec 2, 2008 10:04 PM PST up reply actions
Did you notice the rookie PER's?
Oden and Batum are 2 and 3 on the list.
quid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
I do like that 3 of the top 10 rookies in PER are Blazers (rudy #10)
but Mareese Speights is #1……dont know if i like that. Doesnt lend TOO much credibility IMO, however all signs point to excitement for our rookies.
Rip City Baby...People have no idea what is coming.
Follow my twitter www.twitter.com/PDXBlazersFTW, @PDXBlazersFTW. Lots of random Blazer Posts from links I find around the blogosphere.
speights has played pretty well
i saw him on tv a week or so ago and he was a real bright spot
ignacio
yes but still
i was just saying, not necessarily a knock on speights, more of an observation…..he has not entered any “Rookie of the year” considerations that i have seen, and hes #1 on PER. Just exposing a little bump in the PER Calc….I feel like Batum has really deserved his PER…Oden i am surprised to see that high, but great.
Rip City Baby...People have no idea what is coming.
Follow my twitter www.twitter.com/PDXBlazersFTW, @PDXBlazersFTW. Lots of random Blazer Posts from links I find around the blogosphere.
He's only playing 13 minutes a game backing up Brand.
Multiply his 6/4 numbers by 3 for totals of 18 pts 12 rebs per 39 minutes on 50% shooting and he’d definitely get plenty of ROY talk. He’s a good player, I thought he’d have a nice season watching him in summer league.
by howlingfantods on Dec 2, 2008 7:58 AM PST up reply actions
A L@ker comparison
Just for kicks here is how the scourge of the NBA roster looks
player, rank, PER, minutes
PG
Famar, 23, 15.75, 21
Fisher, 47, 11.37, 27
SG
Bry@nt, 2, 24.82, 33.5
Vujacic, 41, 12.4, 15.3
SF
Ariza, 4, 21.45, 23.9
Radmonovic, 46,10.34, 21.3
PF
Gasol, 7, 21.22, 34.1
Odom, 24,16.42, 25.5
C
Bynum, 5, 21.54, 29.3
Mihm he’s not on the list
So there you go the expected “best team” in the west has crappier PG production than the Blazers with a ranking of 23 and 47 to our 26 and 35. Now mind you the less productive Fisher gets 6 more minutes per game than Famar. With the exception of Famar and Odom no other bench player is better than average for the L@kers. We also have to bench player above average in Pryz and Rudy. Of the Blazers ten deep, the average PER for Portland is 16.821 while the L@kers nine deep average is 17.257 (non-minute adjusted for either team).
Now mind you these are stats for a quarter season and the L@kers have played the ten home games (eleven if youcount the away game at the clippers) and only 5 road games which should give the L@kers a slight edge, having more home court advantage in games played and more rest between games than the Blazers so far. Yet our team stacks up very well in a side by side comparison. They have higher number at the top by their best players, yet their bench players have lower PERs than the Blazers bench players. They have 3 players (Fisher, Vujacic, and Radmonovic) below a per of 12.5 while the Blazers only have one in Frye. That’s right their starting PG is one the second worst productive player on the court.
My main point is to show that even the elite team has sub-par production at PG just like us, but it is more than made up by the overall play of other guys on the team. We do not need an upgrade at PG. Blake is slightly better than average, but most importantly his strengths (few TO’s & great spot up shooting) are exactly what we need until we groom the young guys behind him to play the right way. I’m quite confident both Sergio and Bayless will someday make Blake expendable, until then we need not trade any player as we have a very solid team.
by NWfan on Dec 1, 2008 11:29 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Interesting, thanks for digging that up.
Rip City Baby...People have no idea what is coming.
Follow my twitter www.twitter.com/PDXBlazersFTW, @PDXBlazersFTW. Lots of random Blazer Posts from links I find around the blogosphere.
Great post.
Nice stats on the L@kers.
Regarding the Blazers, I think it is a close call. If we can use RELC and one or two of our young guys to land a significant upgrade at PG then I think we would have to consider it seriously. You are right that the L@kers also have limited production at PG, but look at the rest of the positional ranking of their starting five: SG 2, SF 4, PF 7, C 5. They are top 10 in all four positions. They may have a better ability to overcome lower production at PG. Hopefully, of course, Greg and LA, along with Nic or Martell will continue to improve.
I am not saying we have to make a deal. I am saying that if we do make a deal it should be for a PG. I respect Blake’s game and the fact that he knows his own limitations. I too hope that Sergio and JBay will grow into the more well rounded PG that we need for the long run.
by upper left corner on Dec 2, 2008 4:17 AM PST up reply actions
Hotspots are back: Steve and Sergio
Steve Blake 2007-08 regular season (left) and 2008-09 so far (right)


Sergio Rodriguez 2007-08 regular season (left) and 2008-09 so far (right)


Comparing their shooting is not really worth an own fanpost, so I put it here in this nice one. True, Sergio’s shot seems to be improving from his ice-cold last year and he is destined to get a lot more attempts this season. But Steve is still as hot as ever from most spots on the floor and seems to have improved his mid-range shot. Bayless has not taken enough shots to start getting to a verdict, but from the start he is hot directly under the basket.
by Norsktroll on Dec 2, 2008 7:54 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
damn, Sergio really had ice in his veins last year, judging by the blue parts
and I don’t mean figuratively, I mean literally.
by Bust a Bucket on Dec 2, 2008 7:58 AM PST up reply actions
Thanks for adding this to my post. Excellent contribution to the discussion.
Stats don’t lie. Sergio has come a long way, but he still has a long way to go as a shooter and scorer. IMHO he has gone from intolerable to barely tolerable. If it were not for his outstanding ball-handling and passing skills he would still be sitting on the bench.
Nice to see Steve’s improvement, especially on two-pointers. He still gets very few opportunities at the rim which demonstrates his limitations going to the hoop.
Too bad we can’t combine Steve’s spot up shooting with Sergio’s passing and JBay’s ability to drive. Then we would have a super PG.
by upper left corner on Dec 2, 2008 10:11 AM PST up reply actions
stats
don’t lie , but they don’t always tell the whole story…..
Sergio’s shooting % is a prime example…….He was relegated to pass first, shoot maybe….but only with the clock running down….then it’s his fault because he didn’t get the offense started soon enough….the line continues and ends up with lower shooting % because he is the last option for taking the shot….the lower % comes from not getting too many spot ups or offensive looks out of the flow of the offense or because some of the shots were taken out of desperation…(not to mention rhythm and confidence)
In other words I think you will find that Sergio’s % would be better if he was more involved in the shooting aspect of the offense…..which is not what the coach wants……So if you watched Sergio at the start of his first year, he was hitting his shots more often and taking more out of the flow of the offense…this has changed because he is deemed more valuable at penetrating and speeding up the flow of the offense than shooting….IMO this makes him less effective as a point guard because everyone needs to be an offensive threat to keep defenses honest…..
I’m not trying to defend Sergio…he has limitations and has many problems with his game that won’t make him a star, but I don’t like individual stats….So my point is: using Sergio’s shooting stats or even his PER, may suggest some things, but their value to say someone like KP would be minimal….. the idea that qualified people would make determinations on players being on or off the team based on PER just doesn’t process in my mind…..
'Liability on defense, is an asset on the bench" a quote from my basketball coach, who believed good defense won games and made the offense a product of it
by 67 on Dec 2, 2008 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
Good points
I don’t disagree. I didn’t mean to come across as a Sergio hater. I respect his game and think he is an incredibly creative passer and outstanding ball-handler. His defense has shown significant improvement this year.
My comment about his shooting is basically in agreement with your point about his needing to be a legitimate scoring threat. If he is going to play significant minutes with the first unit, he has to become a more legitimate scorer in order to keep his defender home. The last thing we need is for opposing teams to have the green light to have however is on Sergio floating around causing havoc and doubling other guys at will. Sergio’s shooting is showing improvement, and if he can continue to improve and if he can continue to improve his defense he may eventually become our long term answer at the point.
Question for you or any other readers out there: Which possibility do you think is more likely?
1) Blake stays as the starting PG for the foreseeable future;
2) Sergio improves his scoring enough to take over the starting role;
3) JBay learns to distribute well enough to play effectively with Roy;
4) None of the above, KP is going to make a trade for an established PG.
by upper left corner on Dec 2, 2008 3:21 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, good point. If you look at his shot chart from 2006, he has really regressed (especially last year)
That can have many causes, including that his playing time was small and he had to take many contested attempts of questionable quality. I also don’t think KP would trade a player because of such an isolated statistic (they have more elaborate charts from games and observations from training, that’s only what the NBA provides for free). It’s just that there are some posters who claim Sergio’s shot was now so much better, even better than that of our best shooters. Which while he looks improved simply is not backed up by the data.
For Debate: I have bolded the STAR players, Italicized the likely not for sales
PG IN THE NBA –
Acker, Alex Detroit Pistons
Ahearn, Blake San Antonio Spurs
Alston, Rafer Houston Rockets
Arenas, Gilbert Washington Wizards
Atkins, Chucky Denver Nuggets
Augustin, D.J. Charlotte Bobcats
Banks, Marcus Miami Heat
Barea, Jose Juan Dallas Mavericks
Bayless, Jerryd Portland Trail Blazers
Bibby, Mike Atlanta Hawks
Billups, Chauncey Denver Nuggets
Blake, Steve Portland Trail Blazers
Brooks, Aaron Houston Rockets
Brown, Bobby Sacramento Kings
Brown, Dee Washington Wizards
Brown, Shannon Charlotte Bobcats
Bynum, Will Detroit Pistons
Calderon, Jose Toronto Raptors
Carter, Anthony Denver Nuggets
Cassell, Sam Boston Celtics
Chalmers, Mario Miami Heat
Claxton, Speedy Atlanta Hawks
Collins, Mardy Los Angeles Clippers
Conley, Mike Memphis Grizzlies
Crittenton, Javaris Memphis Grizzlies
Daniels, Antonio Washington Wizards
Davis, Baron Los Angeles Clippers
Diener, Travis Indiana Pacers
Dooling, Keyon New Jersey Nets
Dragic, Goran Phoenix Suns
Duhon, Chris New York Knicks
Farmar, Jordan Los Angeles Lakers
Felton, Raymond Charlotte Bobcats
Fisher, Derek Los Angeles Lakers
Ford, T.J. Indiana Pacers
Foye, Randy Minnesota Timberwolves
Francis, Steve Houston Rockets
Gibson, Daniel Cleveland Cavaliers
Harris, Devin New Jersey Nets
Hart, Jason Los Angeles Clippers
Head, Luther Houston Rockets
Hill, George San Antonio Spurs
Hinrich, Kirk Chicago Bulls
Ivey, Royal Philadelphia 76ers
Jack, Jarrett Indiana Pacers
Jackson, Bobby Sacramento Kings
James, Mike New Orleans Hornets
Jaric, Marko Memphis Grizzlies
Johnson, Anthony Orlando Magic
Jones, Damon Milwaukee Bucks
Kidd, Jason Dallas Mavericks
Knight, Brevin Utah Jazz
Law, Acie Atlanta Hawks
Livingston, Shaun Miami Heat
Lowry, Kyle Memphis Grizzlies
Lue, Tyronn Milwaukee Bucks
Marbury, Stephon New York Knicks
Miller, Andre Philadelphia 76ers
Nash, Steve Phoenix Suns
Nelson, Jameer Orlando Magic
Ollie, Kevin Minnesota Timberwolves
Parker, Tony San Antonio Spurs
Paul, Chris New Orleans Hornets
Price, Ronnie Utah Jazz
Pruitt, Gabe Boston Celtics
Quinn, Chris Miami Heat
Ridnour, Luke Milwaukee Bucks
Robinson, Nate New York Knicks
Rodriguez, Sergio Portland Trail Blazers
Rondo, Rajon Boston Celtics
Rose, Derrick Chicago Bulls
Sessions, Ramon Milwaukee Bucks
Singletary, Sean Phoenix Suns
Snow, Eric Cleveland Cavaliers
Solomon, Will Toronto Raptors
Stuckey, Rodney Detroit Pistons
Taylor, Mike Los Angeles Clippers
Telfair, Sebastian Minnesota Timberwolves
Terry, Jason Dallas Mavericks
Tinsley, Jamaal Indiana Pacers
Udrih, Beno Sacramento Kings
Ukic, Roko Toronto Raptors
Vaughn, Jacque San Antonio Spurs
Watson, C.J. Golden State Warriors
Watson, Earl Oklahoma City Thunder
Westbrook, Russell Oklahoma City Thunder
Wilks, Mike Orlando Magic
Williams, Deron Utah Jazz
Williams, Marcus Golden State Warriors
Williams, Mo Cleveland Cavaliers
"Why would we lie to ourselves dude?"
"Be excellent to each other."
"All we are is dust in the wind, dude."
"Strange things are afoot at the Circle K."
The Wisdom of Bill S Preston Esquire and Ted Theodore Logan
by GreatOden'sRaven on Dec 2, 2008 2:23 PM PST reply actions
Take a look at this list
and you see that no one outside of the bold and or italics is really any better than blake. In order to build a superteam ala 80s celtics, we would need to consolidate our bench and starter pieces to get a BOLD or at the VERY least italicized PG. Are we willing to give up what it would take?
"Why would we lie to ourselves dude?"
"Be excellent to each other."
"All we are is dust in the wind, dude."
"Strange things are afoot at the Circle K."
The Wisdom of Bill S Preston Esquire and Ted Theodore Logan
by GreatOden'sRaven on Dec 2, 2008 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
I might trade Blake
for one of the bold guys, but not for any of the italicized guys. – Elgin.
He who life can no longer surprise raises his eyes, beholds a planet unknown. - Peter Gabriel
Kidd is UFA this summer
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.
would kidd really make us better than if we had blake?
hard to say, i think we’d have more inspiration, less scoring
I'm not sure he would
It was just a slight correction to the “only get a bold guy for a very dear cost” comment. Kidd is one of the bolded guys, and we may get him for nothing but cap space, if KP wants him.
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.
Thoughts
Arenas, Billups, Davis, Kidd and Nash represent 1/2 the bold list, yet Arenas is often injured, Billups will end his career in Denver, Davis will end his career in SCal where he wanted to be (and hasn’t always been that consistent), and Nash and Kidd are good for a few more years – at best.
Which is why, I suspect, that the idea of getting an ëlite"point guard is a little over-rated. Teams win championships, and that means having 2-3 stars and 8-9 solid players. How the players complement each other becomes the critical issue. A solid if not spectacular or "bold"PG can work very well if he’s surrounded by other superior talent. Everyone who keeps harping on the PG position equally ignores the fact that we have an exceptional talent in Roy, and Roy – in clutch time – is as good a PG as any one of those that are bolded. Which is why his assist ratio is so high. In fact, it is better than a number of those "PG’s"on the list – yet he’s not on the list. If Roy focussed purely on the PG slot, and handled the ball all the time rather than only part of the time – he’d be near the top of the ässist"list.
Yet he’s not. Portland, in this context, does not need nor want one of those bolded players because of this fact. After all, Roy is not – as so many seem to want to insist – a pure SG. Therefore, you have to ask yourself. Do you want the ball in Roy’s hands during “crunch” time, or someone elses. On thing, after all, that makes Roy so effective, is that few can stop his shot, even fewer PG’s have the size to handle him, and he’s a heady and superb passer. We will trade or draft to complement Roy – not to replace him. That’s my prediction.
How about Stuckey?
He’s big and strong, can D up, can shoot and doesn’t need to control the ball to contribute. Dumars obviously think he’s their PG of the future. But what would it take to pry him away?
by Bust a Bucket on Dec 3, 2008 4:52 AM PST up reply actions
I mean, he's definitely on the "untouchable" list
but if it really came down to it, would Dumars be willing to part with him for a sweet deal?
by Bust a Bucket on Dec 3, 2008 4:53 AM PST up reply actions
Bust a Bucket
He might. After all, Detroits not going anywhere up this year, as they’re proving. Dumars refused to budge after the finals last year, then did the Billups for Iverson swap. And, right now, it looks like they were a better team with Billups – than they are with Iverson. So, he bought one more year. But what do they really have now in Detroit? Age is catching up – and they simply aren’t going to contedn with this group. And next year, this group will be worth less than they are now – given they’ll be one year older. Dumars will have to bite this bullet sometime.
I'll be surprised
if he bites the bullet by dumping his youngest really good player. It would have to be a really sweet deal.
If he’s going to blow it up, surely he wants to keep Stuckey as one of the guys they build around.
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.

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