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Around SBN: The Week In Worst: When Baseball Goes Wrong

The Backcourt

It seems at the moment that the biggest minute logjam and resultant bad feelings is in the back court. The problem while having two main fronts comes from one truth - there ain't enough PG time for all this talent - and this extends to the Roy and Rudy playing together with Roy or Rudy at PG.

With that in mind the first of the sub-plots revolves around the "pure" point guards (I include Bayless in this group). As Ben has written in a great post on the main page Sergio is frustrated. I think in a silent, deadly kind of way so is Bayless. The only PG getting big minutes is Blake. I think Blakey has really improved his 3 ball but I think we've seen the best defense he will ever bring to the table and it ain't much.

As has been mentioned elsewhere when Martell returns you have two distinct units you could and should platoon until April when you go with your 8 best. You have your "Lock Down Half Court Death" starting unit and your "Chaos Magician Run and Gun" second unit. The first unit shuts it down rebounds like mad and only looks to push when the opportunity is begging for it ala San Antonio.

So with those two archetypes in mind what would be the best possible lineup to make these two types of game work?

I think the first unit works best potentially with the following:

PG - Bayless (after learning to distribute and defer to Roy)
SG - Roy
SF - Batum Martell
PF - LMA
C - Oden


Again, the team with the most potential for the 2nd unit Run and Gun:

PG - Sergio (Needs to work on a tear drop, 3 Ball, midrange jumper and most importantly defense.)
SG - Rudy
SF - Martell Batum (he just needs seasoning and a better shot mid range and from deep both things that can be learned. As Monalisa8 says below Batum's defense would really bolster the second unit and let them run more.)
PF - Frye
C - Pryzbilla


That of course leaves Outlaw and Blake out in the cold and would likely mean they had been traded. I'm not sure if Nate really buys the platooning idea (not 5 for 5 right away but you phase in the other team over a few minutes). If he doesn't then there will be an even greater consolidation trade or two.

The other interesting sub-plot is the seemingly apparent gulf between Roy and Rudy. This one is potentially more concerning as both of those guys are clearly part of our core. Rudy and Roy just haven't played that well together. I might be wrong about this but I feel like Roy might be threatened by Rudy's popularity with the fans and international stardom. The thing is Rudy seems to be totally fine with how things are right now and has seemed to defer to Roy. I just feel like Roy doesn't completely trust Rudy as a player. Unfortunately that missed 3 in Utah with the Roy dish to Rudy probably didn't help that feeling, if it does in fact exist. This is something I'm very curious about.

So everyone, what thoughts have you about our incredibly over-flowingly talented back court? Air 'em out here.

Comment 40 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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i'd like to experiment more with rudy & roy

just to see if that can work. superquick opposing pgs eventually to be defensed by bayless once he learns to fit in.

i dont know if rudy & roy can actually work, but im curious to see.

blake seems a low-ego pro who will fit in as needed. why trade him? you wouldnt get much. (i guess this means i don’t expect much from sergio. but i am always happy to be pleasantly surprised.)

ignacio

by ignacio on Nov 7, 2008 9:27 PM PST reply actions  

Switch Batum and Martell at SF

I think Martell should start at SF and Batum should come off the bench. Martell is better suited with the first unit because Oden and Aldridge are going to get double teamed. They need a shooter to kick out to and Martell is the best pure shooter on the team.

I see Batum fitting in more with the second unit. He can help the offense minded unit with his defensive presence. The second unit has plenty of offensive weapons so Batum’s defense will be a plus.

by MonaLisa8 on Nov 7, 2008 10:04 PM PST reply actions  

I think you might be right

Martell’s 3 ball is key. It’s a question of whether you want a top shelf perimeter defender or a good perimeter defender who can drain the 3. I feel the guys are interchangeable my only thought was Martell’s chemistry with Rudy. They would likely be on the floor together anyways at some point. Good point about Batum’s defense being huge for the second unit.

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 11:41 AM PST up reply actions  

good assessment.

I think the Rudy Roy chemistry is the biggest question right now followed by the PG logjam. I have been thinking that some kind of locker room/alpha dog stuff seems to be affecting BRoy. You’re right. This could be the popularity of Rudy. And BRoy has crafted this staid half court iso style of play to fit with Nate’s approach. The dynamism and talent of Rudy and Batum no doubt challenges the order on this team.

Good insight on the KP/Nate Dynamic. Why is KP getting these dynamic players with Nate at the helm? It’s almost like you have to choose a style and stick with it.

You have to consider trading Rudy too as his stock is very high right now and I don’t know if Nate has it in him to figure out how to make it work with both of those 2’s.

by Blazin' on Nov 7, 2008 10:43 PM PST reply actions  

I gotta say I would almost

rather trade Nate then Rudy. Not that, that can be done but man sometimes I’m like “Nate it’s right there man plain as day!”. Other times I’m really impressed with his coaching. I can’t imagine the pressure that comes with an NBA head coaching gig with all this young talent and hype. I think if Nate fails to use the tools, then KP might force his hand with a trade. Trading Blake would shake things up to a huge degree. I don’t want to trade Blake Per se but I want to find out PG of the future and I’m convinced he is not going to be our starter down the line.

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 12:19 PM PST up reply actions  

nice post.

one of the reasons i asked nate about roy/rudy today is because i think once martell comes back we will see

roy/rudy/webster/aldridge/oden

in heavy rotation.

just my gut read on that. nate didn’t commit to anything today but he was complimentary of rudy. it seems to me like he is willing to risk getting beat for a few buckets by small PGs if it means he can get more PT for rudy and roy together. add webster to that mix and once the chemistry comes together that is going to be a beautiful thing to watch.

honor terry porter

by Ben Golliver on Nov 7, 2008 11:16 PM PST reply actions  

also i don’t think there’s a gulf between brandon and rudy.

just still feeling each other out.

the fact that brandon sent that pass out to rudy tells you all you need to know about brandon’s trust in rudy. as he mentioned in last night’s interview, brandon wants to take those shots. he didn’t even want a screen from LMA last night. he just wanted to do it one on one. so to trust rudy says a lot.

honor terry porter

by Ben Golliver on Nov 7, 2008 11:18 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree with Ben, I agree with Ben!!!

I always feel I am on a different page than you Ben but on this we agree. Brandon and Rudy will be a deadly combo when they get used to each other’s games. It will be interesting to see if they will be able to run those baseline screen plays for Rudy with Roy manning the point.

PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04

by tssbro on Nov 8, 2008 12:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Pick and Roll at the top of the key

with Brandon and LMA, and double screens for Webs and Rudy down low with one of them benefiting from and Oden pick. My god that’s devastating. Two HUGE 3 point shooters and a deadly drive and dish combo. What do you do to stop all those options?

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 12:32 PM PST up reply actions  

That's a really good point

about that kick out to Rudy in Utah. What’s your feeling on Roy in the 4th quarter of Houston? I think he felt he had something to prove either to himself or about Artest guarding him. It wasn’t he stripped shot with the no-screen by LMA it was his 4 or so shots before that. They could have continued to feed Rudy who was read hot using screens underneath with a pick and roll up top. I just found it fascinating how different the offense flowed when Roy came back into the line up. Wondering what your thoughts were on it. Maybe it wasn’t Roy and Rudy at all just Roy with something to prove. You could certainly argue that he proved it too. I mean with the Artest-practically-falling-on-the-floor-spin-around-jumper to tie and of course the somewhere over the rainbow 3 point splash for the win.

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

When Webster returns

he will certainly go back to starting and get plenty of opportunity to show he deserves to hold onto that spot. That will create a log jam at SF even if Trout gets 10-12 minutes at back up PF (at Frye’s expense) as well as 12-15 minutes at the backup SF. Batum will get some spot minutes when we need to try to shut down an opposing SF. If Webster is successful I don’t see us making a trade for a veteran SF this year. If Webster fails to show the improvement we expect (in defense and rebounding) then I expect we will be looking to move him plus other assets for a veteran starting SF. Of course we could also move Travis plus assets for a starting small forward and bring Webster off the bench, but I think Nate loves the flexibility of having Trout’s firepower coming off the bench at either the 3 or 4.

If Roy/Rudy work out starting at the 1/2 or 2/1 it would solve the problem of getting Rudy 30 minutes (or eventually more) a game, and limit the need to use a 3-guard offense except in limited situations. I don’t think Nate wants to go that small except against very favorable match ups. Blake can then come off the bench as the other (3rd) guard in the rotation. Bayless and Sergio can fight it out trying to eventually displace Blake as that 3rd guard.

I guess that’s a long-winded way of saying I agree with you Ben!

by BlazerFanSince1970 on Nov 8, 2008 12:16 AM PST up reply actions  

The only thing about Outlaw and Martell

is that neither were KP picks (an increasingly rare thing on this team). Also KP’s plans and Nates clearly aren’t the same. KP won’t pressure Nate on coaching – which is a good thing – but he will make personnel moves to force Nate’s hand. That’s really the only KP can do to bring his vision to life. After reading peoples comments I think that Martell is definitely the starter and I will edit my post. I still think KP knows that thus far with one HUGE exception against Houston, Trout doesn’t rebound or play defense well enough. However, if Trout keeps up his performance on a nightly basis to compare to his effort against Houston then Batum will probably be gathering dust when Marty gets back. Outlaw was incredible vs. Houston and I think he and Pryzbilla carried the game for us even if LMA and Roy were the hero’s.

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 12:29 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm more worried about the offense of the Rudy/Roy backcourt than the defense right now.

Roy and Rudy ought to be a devastating offensive combo, but so far they haven’t been that effective. Hopefully the situation will improve as they get more experience working together, and one of them will start to look more like a true point guard. On defense, I think Rudy has looked at least as good as Blake and Sergio (granted, that isn’t really saying much). If Roy and Rudy can become a potent offensive combo, I don’t think that their defense is going to hold them back.

by trk on Nov 8, 2008 1:31 AM PST up reply actions  

Just give them some time

They have barely begun playing together. If you’ve watched Roy on the bench after Rudy has made a nice move (like when he crossed over on Barry or when he left Artest dizzy and scored over Yao), Roy has been very excited and animated. He is obviously acquiring respect for Rudy’s skills. They are both very intelligent players that can pass as well as shoot the ball, and will realize we can’t be successful unless they are successful playing together.

If it weren’t for the last 1.9 seconds, my favorite play of the game would have been Rudy running Artest around in a circle before taking the ball over Yao at the basket. I thought Artest was going to need oxygen after that play.

by BlazerFanSince1970 on Nov 8, 2008 2:02 AM PST up reply actions  

that high finger roll over Yao

can’t believe that didn’t make any of the highlight packages.

Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.

by douglast on Nov 8, 2008 9:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Talk about teardrop!

I think I did see a tear drop from the corner of Yao’s eye after seeing that shot go in!

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

THAT was an amazing play

I loved how Rudy went around then spun back around the same double pick and Artest did look like he was ready for retirement. Rudy on the other hand looked fresh as a daisy swish! The more time goes on the more I want Oden to drop a few pounds and just run in a gym all day every day.

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Whoops

meant to say skinny guys can still ball in this league. Just ask Tayshaun, Tmac, Batum and Rudy. Or better yet the guys trying to stop them from doing their thing.

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

not sure why you're leaving out Blake

You mention that Sergio needs a tear drop (close range shot), a 3 ball (long range shot), and a mid-range jumper. That covers, uhm, pretty much every shot on the floor, yes? By your own admission, Sergio can’t handle the Gun part of Run and Gun.

I think your lineups are more effective with Blake as the first PG and Bayless as the second. I’d also swap Webster with Batum. Blake already knows how to defer to Roy, and having Bayless be the second option (after Rudy) would let him look to score, while still learning how to defer and play with a good 2-guard. But that’s just my take.

by abdelnaby on Nov 8, 2008 12:01 AM PST reply actions  

Anybody with half a brain watching this second unit

knows that Sergio is the perfect PG to run it… even when he can’t hit his own shots (which will come with time).

by as11osu on Nov 8, 2008 12:16 AM PST up reply actions  

considering that

his shooting percentages have declined dramatically every year he’s been in the league… will it come with time? signs point to no, thus far.

by abdelnaby on Nov 8, 2008 1:49 AM PST up reply actions  

he had a second year slump

but has improved his shot this year. Once the sample size gets bigger I would think there will be a nice upward progression. Saying his shot is worse this year is just as silly as me saying it’s better.

by einman77 on Nov 10, 2008 10:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Well

I think that Sergio needs minutes to improve. If we aren’t going to give them to him especially in a running second unit, then KP needs to trade him (I think we would regret this big time). Blake hasn’t proved he can run at all and he can’t defend the point which puts fouls on our interior defenders. As soon as Sergio get’s his 3 point shot a bit more consistent he will be VASTLY better then Blake.

 When was the last time Blake took it to the hole? He does it maybe once a game if he’s playing 25 minutes. Sergio does it virtually every game. It’s Sergio’s penetration and vision that makes him rack up assists like he does. Blake is a wash at defense when compared to Sergio and doesn’t have half the vision. Blake’s biggest asset is the calming influence he brings to the court, something that won’t be as needed once our core is more experienced.

 If Bayless can learn to look to dish (I’ve already seen him start to do this in pre-season) his defense and penetration make him a MUCH better fit then Blake with a lock down half court starting unit.

 Here’s the problem, if Blake keeps taking up 20 to 25 minutes at the point with Rudy/Roy/Sergio/Bayless getting the rest that is simply not enough time for our young PG’s to develop. They both have far greater potential then Blake who is probably at or near his ceiling due to physical limitations. I’ve heard people say Nash is Blake’s ceiling. That’s ridiculous Nash has 10 times the vision, is a better shot and most importantly is far faster then Blake even now, and Nash is in his mid-30’s!

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 12:44 PM PST up reply actions  

No way Nate leaves out both Blake and Travis

Those guys are our veterans, they won’t lose PT to rookies. Based on purely potential your lineups might work, but experience and consistency trumps potential

Woof

by Charles Barkley McLovin on Nov 8, 2008 12:24 AM PST reply actions  

I agree with you

about Nate’s attitude. Watch KP trade Trout and Blake in a blockbuster before the deadline forcing Nate’s hand. Coaches always plays vets to “win now”. KP has a longer term vision then Nate.

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 12:46 PM PST up reply actions  

I just don't see the conflict...

I have read people talking about how Nate and KP are at odds. Where does this come from? Did KP trade Jack so Nate wouldn’t play him over Sergio? Now Nate is fighting back by blindly playing Blake, Rudy and Roy over the young phenom. The only tension I see is Sergio getting frustrated and KP saying calm down. They wouldn’t have offered Nate an extension this summer if there was tension about who he was giving court time to.

Oh, wait. Nate turned down the extension because there was a Sergio for at least 20 minutes a game clause in the contract. Now it is all making sense.

PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04

by tssbro on Nov 8, 2008 1:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Well

that’s just my read on the situation. I think KP trusts Nate’s coaching but doesn’t always agree with his personnel on the floor decisions. Nate clearly liked Jack and KP clearly did not. I notice Sergio is still on our team and KP says he’s not going anywhere. I don’t think there is HUGE tension between KP and Nate I just don’t think they always agree on who is the most talented player(s). Not saying I’m right just saying that is my read.

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 1:23 PM PST up reply actions  

I appreciate your opinion...

I don’t share it and I think it is reading into it without much evidence. I know we all form our opinions on limited info so I am not calling you out or anything, just expressing my… frustration is too strong a word… concern? whatever… that we should at least see a chink in the armor before shooting an arrow at it. Nate has been annoyed with the situation and with the press but I don’t think I have seen any evidence he is annoyed even with Sergio much less KP.

And KP has never let out an inkling that he is displeased with Nate’s choices for playing time. He was high on Bayless and if it took Sergio to get him, I imagine he would be in Indiana right now instead of Jack.

PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04

by tssbro on Nov 8, 2008 1:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Upon my blogging journeys over at the Sixers blog

I spoke of the Sergio situation and asked if they would be interested in a Sergio and Travis for Thad deal (how sweet would that be?) It was met with a “Thad’s our best player, but I’ll give you Miller (last year of a 10m contract) for Rudy straight up”. I pondered the idea (with Ike and Trav for salary reasons and a pick from them, probably first round), and thought about our lines. When Webster gets back, it would be Oden, Aldridge, Webster, Roy and Miller with a second unit of Pryz, Frye, Bayless, Rudy and Blake. NO WAY! Switch Blake with Serge and you get something to work with and fun to watch. Moreover, if we did something like that, we could do just Blake and Digou for Miller and keep Trav for a while while Bayless develops and Webster comes back. Not to say that this is a trade I am proposing, but shipping off Blake instead of Sergio would clear the confusion up about who plays with which squad, and would give Sergio some confidence that the point guard competition is open after the season. Of course we would have a enormous amount of cap space at the end of the season for plan B(+) and gives us the better fit in my opinion. If things went amazingly well, it could be a Digou, Blake, Travis and probably a pick or two in the second round for Thad and Miller. They have no cap space and can’t do anything even when Miller’s salary comes off the books. Maybe I should read more blogs than just the Sixers one.

 Honestly, it is still too early to judge what would be the best for this team, but this is poor timing for this development, and it seems like something has to be done. Sergio’s response was good in the fact that he says he understands and will do what’s good for the best interest of the team, so hopefully it won’t bubble over until the team can figure out what’s best.

I’m still pulling for you Serge, but this situation will likely come to a head sooner rather than later. Keep on keeping on baby!

by einman77 on Nov 8, 2008 12:31 AM PST reply actions  

I assume you mean Miller for Sergio?

I certainly wouldn’t want to trade Rudy for Miller.

by trk on Nov 8, 2008 1:40 AM PST up reply actions  

um, yeah

all those Spaniards look alike to me. (I hope that’s not over the line, even in jest.)

by einman77 on Nov 8, 2008 3:34 AM PST up reply actions  

We can't trade Rudy

ever! By the way, are some of you overrating Blake? He can’t defend anybody and he averages like 4 assists a game in about 30 minutes per. While Sergio averages 3 assists in less then 10 minutes a game. I don’t see how much better Balke is to Sergio on the defensive end. They both suck but at least one of them can create shots for others. When teams start to take Roy and LMA out of the game with double teams or preventing us playing the pick and roll then we need Sergio to up the tempo. The reason we are slow starters is because our starters lack a point guard that can push the ball. Sergio is what makes our second unit so explosive. Its time to trade Blake or demote him to 3rd string with Ike and Reaf.

by VinnyB on Nov 8, 2008 4:50 AM PST reply actions  

LOTF

LINEUP OF THE FUTURE…

I think the first unit works best potentially with the following:

PG – Bayless (after learning to distribute and defer to Roy)
SG – Roy
SF – Batum …
PF – LMA
C – Oden

FREE SERGIO -- Trade Him or Cut Him NOW!!!

by timbo on Nov 8, 2008 9:01 AM PST reply actions  

I'll agree with that

but that’s like 3 years in the future. We need to take a couple of quality playoff runs before then.

by einman77 on Nov 8, 2008 9:18 AM PST up reply actions  

vomit

vomit. Man this is like that time I worked at a bar on a party line in the Greek Islands. vomit.

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 12:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Whoops

party Island in the Aegean. Bleh whatever.

He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants

by Idog1976 on Nov 8, 2008 12:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Rec

+1 times like a gazillion!

by tominhawaii on Nov 8, 2008 1:41 PM PST up reply actions  

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