OT: Election Day Poll
Basketball is a great sport, it's true, but my favorite sport of all is politics. And tomorrow is the once-every-four-years, Olympic Gold Medal game.
Unlike other sports where people might be playing for a trophy or some rings, in this case the winning team gets to run the country and literally dominate the world. For several years. Big stakes make for big excitement. Sure, there's a lot of boring speeches and annoying advertisements, but that stuff's over now, and we can just watch the final contest and see who wins and by how many points.
And just in case you think this has no connection to baskeball, consider these choice nuggets:
- Sarah Palin and Barack Obama both played on their high school baskeball teams. It's been reported that Obama plays some hoops every time he has a major debate or election day, to calm his nerves and bring good luck. He could be dunking on someone's head as you read this.
- This is a great basketball blog, and there are a lot of great political blogs. The premier polling analyst got started crunching stats for baseball. And the godfather of liberal political blogs is also one of the founders of SB Nation, host of BlazersEdge.
- Obama's brother-in-law is the new basketball coach of our very own Oregon State Beavers (boo, go Ducks).
I'm sure there are lots of other interesting connections, but there's a few.
Anyway, the point of this post is that I thought it would be fun to see how the opinions of BEdgers compare to those of the general population, so take the poll. I'm pretty sure I have enough options to cover everybody.
Please keep any discussion civil and positive, unless it is directed toward me.
UPDATE: Poll Analysis
Wow, looks like Blazer fans love them some Obama. He's currently ahead 64-17. If you throw out the other choices, Obama is up 79-21. That compares to the national vote which will probably be something like 53-45, with 2% to third parties. I'll take a stab at some reasons why Obama would outperform here.
- Oregon, and especially Portland, trends liberal. Oregon will probably vote something like 57-41 Obama. But that's nothing like the 79% from BlazersEdge.
- Basketball fans are more likely to be black. I have no idea if that's true, but it's a thought. African Americans are voting Obama at something like 95%.
- Blog readers tend to be young. I don't know the demographics here, but I would guess they trend younger than the general population by a bit. Young people support Obama by a wide margin.
- "Get this politics junk out of my basketball site" voters trend Republican. Just a guess, but it makes sense. Since the people on this site trend liberal, the conservatives may be more hostile to political discussion here.
- Enthusiasm gap. McCain supporters are feeling demoralized right now, and thus are less likely to click on this FanPost or vote in the poll. Obama voters are excited, and want to vote everywhere they can.
362 comments
|
8 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
If Obama loses...
… I’m moving to Canada.
Not really. I will be very upset and disappointed though.
fivethirtyeight.com rocks my world- I’ve been on that website countless times the last month.
Boomshakalaka
Same here thank god he won. Now we are America again.
by BRoyInThe4th on Nov 4, 2008 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
mexico's canada
I come here to meet chicks...
by BlazermaniacAndy on Nov 5, 2008 11:13 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This probably won't end well
but it will be more civilized than debates elsewhere.
How prone to voting fraud and miscounts are these SBN polls anyway?
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
well to vote again all you have to do is clear your cookies, so.... about as reliable as florida in 2000 or Ohio in 2004
remember, remember the fifth of November
you tricky devil
what polls have you distorted with this unholy knowledge?
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
I dont trust republicans.
They will pull dirty tricks till the end. 2000 they did it to their own John mccain, 2004 john kerry got smeared so bad he couldnt even open his mouth for days and now waiting for some other drama.
"All our holes," says shooting guard Brandon Roy, a surprise All-Star last year in his second season, "are holes that Greg is going to plug."
yeah, its only the Republicans
as opposed to those bastions of honesty and clean play, the Dems.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I reject the equivalence
There is overwhelming evidence that the 2000 election was stolen from Gore in Florida by Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris.
The outrage about ACORN’s fraudulent voter registration fraud (very different from voter fraud) is NOTHING compared to the systemic efforts to suppress the minority vote that the GOP has engaged in for years.
Boomshakalaka
by jksnake99 on Nov 3, 2008 8:38 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I wasn't talking about ACORN
certainly not just about them.
Let’s be real here. BOTH parties, at the grassroots level, engage, and have LONG engaged in all kinds of dirty tricks, voter suppresssion, voter fraud, etc, etc, etc. Neither side has any moral high ground on this issue.
One can find “overwhelming evidence” to support all kinds of election shenanigans — on both sides — where one to want to dig deep enough and look at the issue with as little bias as possible.
The problem is the system. With NO safeguards in place to ensure any kind of systemic security, we are left with the sham of a system that we have, which is shamelessly simple to manipulate and exploit. it’s no wonder that all sides do it.
When a person can walk into a polling place on voting day, no ID or proof of citizenship or residency in hand at all, and register and cast a ballot, the system is just plain borked.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I agree our system is a joke
I still reject the equivalence. There is no democratic equivalent of Karl Rove.
Boomshakalaka
jksnake - how old are you? (If I may ask.)
The reason I ask is it sounds as if you could use a little perspective.
For example – election fraud is as old as elections and the US is steeped in election fraud history. What may or may not have happened in Florida barely rises to the level of fraud when viewed from a historical perspective.
Election fraud is certainly not restricted to one party. Fraud in southern elections was endemic for nearly a century. Except for a short period during Reconstruction, it was the Democratic Party that dominated southern politics. It wasn’t that long ago that Democrats were preventing minorities from exercising their right to vote.
As for our system being a joke – as compared to what? Who has a better system? This is a day you should thank God or your lucky star that you live in this country, for nowhere else will you find both the freedom to express yourself as you like and the opportunity to improve your condition. Just because the system has warts and smelly parts doesn’t mean it’s a joke.
Sorry if it sounds like lecturing, but having friends and family members who are quite literally fighting as we speak, I couldn’t let the joke comment pass without speaking my own mind.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Nov 4, 2008 7:19 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think his "this system is a joke"
comment was in reflection to how easy it is to tamper with. That is the major problem with democracy as there is not really any way to secure the polls 100. However there are many things we could do better than we currently do, mail in ballots can easily be “lost” without anyone really knowing, and polling stations can register and vote for the dead. Just 2 examples of voter registration fraud that can easy happen, and do happen at almost every election. The only way to get rid of 99 of these issues is to take out the human element in the counting of ballots. However by moving to a computer based, (online voting?) election system it opens up other ways to “rig” the vote.
I agree with Timg that even though it has flaws, it is still the best system anyone has thought of yet, and I am glad to be living in this country because of it.
I meant our voting system is a joke- not our political system
The UN would never certify our elections. In the wealthiest nation on earth, having elections affected by malfunctioning voting machines, 8 hour lines in battleground states, “hanging chads,” etc. is inexcusable. In Canada, they know who the result of their election within about an hour of poll closing.
I do thank god I live in the United States and have no plans to leave any time soon. I would just like to see our elections improved.
You are absolutely correct that the Democratic Party has an embarrassing history of election fraud in the South. However, in my previous post I was not talking about the Jim Crow era. I’m talking about now.
The GOP benefits when voter turnout is low. As a result, voter suppression in urban and minority areas is something that party engages in every election season. See Magnum’s link below for just one example.
There is no maybe about what happened in Florida in 2000. None. Show me any comparable example of the Democratic Party stealing an election in the last 20 years and I will back off my claims. Until then, I stand by my claim that the GOP currently engages in far dirtier politics than the Democratic Party.
Finally, Timg- I’m 24 years old.
Boomshakalaka
stealing?
can you substantiate that? Every reasoned recount of the actual ballots after the fact using a variety of methodologies all still led to a Bush win in Florida.
It was Gore who tried to steal it by singling out specific counties for targeted hand recounts.
Just like the GOP operatives on the ground attempt to suppress the vote every election, Dem operatives on the ground attempt to engage in voting multiple times, voter fraud, buying votes (see Cigarettes for votes), handing out cheat sheets IN the polling place, kicking observers ot of places they control, etc, etc. It’s naive to think this kind of stuff is so one-sided.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
58000 voters were purged
by Katherine Harris, the vast majority of which were eligible voters who just happened to be minorities. Bush won by 537 votes in Florida.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040517/palast
Boomshakalaka
unbiased source please
I’m not going to use biased sources to backup any of my claims, nor am I going to attempt to refute claims made using biased sources.
Even if you accept the conclusions laid out in the opion piece you cite, we don’t know:
A) how many of these people truly were ineligible
B) how many of them voted anyway, due to newere registrations elsewhere
C) how they may have actually voted anyway.
It’s a great story to whip up the troops, but in the end it’s all conjecture.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Hey Douglast
Are you Rush Limbaugh?
Just asking.
We cannot put up with this flagrant lack of accountability anymore.
oh, and to answer your challenge
Washington Governor’s race in 2004. That was outright theft, pure and simple. See the King County ballot snafu where something like 1000 ballots that were supposed to be provisional (and later proven to be ineligible) were mixed into the general ballot pool on election day and could never be removed later. That was more than enough to tilit the election.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I don't know much about this election- perhaps it was stolen
but Wiki presents a much more complex picture as to whether the votes with signature problems (doesn’t say anything about provisional) should have been counted or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_gubernatorial_election,_2004
Boomshakalaka
going from memory
so I was trying to avoid being too specific.
Still, the point is that the case that the WA Governor election was stolen is just as strong, if not stronger, than the case that Florida 2000 was stolen.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
really?
Here’s the US Commission on Civil Rights report on Florida 2000
http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/main.htm
I also linked to their conclusions chapter
http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/ch9.htm
I’d be interested in seeing an unbiased source from you regarding Washington 2000— again, I know very little about that election.
Boomshakalaka
Some excerpts:
Estimates indicate that approximately 14.4 percent of Florida’s black voters cast ballots that were rejected. This compares with approximately 1.6 percent of nonblack Florida voters who did not have their presidential votes counted.
Approximately 11 percent of Florida voters were African American; however, African Americans cast about 54 percent of the 180,000 spoiled ballots in Florida during the November 2000 election based on estimates derived from county-level data. These statewide estimates were corroborated by the results in several counties based on actual precinct data.
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
a spoiled ballot is a spoiled ballot
There could be all kinds of reasons that minorities tended to have more spoiled ballots. If there is any proof of people actually purposely spoiling or excluding those ballots, I’m all ears. Short of that, if the ballot isn’t filled out properly, that’s the fault of the voter, not the vote counters. It isn’t indicative of any attempt at theft.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
more
Findings
*
During Florida’s 2000 presidential election, restrictive statutory provisions, wide-ranging errors, and inadequate resources in the Florida election process denied countless Floridians of their right to vote.
*
This disenfranchisement of Florida voters fell most harshly on the shoulders of African Americans. Statewide, based on county-level statistical estimates, African American voters were nearly 10 times more likely than white voters to have their ballots rejected in the November 2000 election.5
*
Poorer counties, particularly those with large minority populations, were more likely to use voting systems with higher spoilage rates than more affluent counties with significant white populations. For example, in Gadsden County, the only county in the state with an African American majority, approximately one in eight voters was disenfranchised. In Leon County, on the other hand, which is home to the prosperous state capital and two state universities, fewer than two votes in 1,000 were not counted. In Florida, of the 100 precincts with the highest numbers of disqualified ballots, 83 of them are majority-black precincts.
*
Even in counties where the same voting technology was used, blacks were far more likely to have their votes rejected than whites.
Boomshakalaka
see above
same response.
It is disgusting that spoiled ballots occur more in one demographic than others, but there are a variety of reasons for that, which we should strive to fix.
But at the end of the day, there wasn’t an intentioned action or set of actions to “throw out” these ballots. Machines are not biased, they count the valid ones and reject the invalid ones.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
that's just the "spoiled votes"
The Impact of the Purge List on Persons of Color
Findings
*
The state of Florida’s statutorily mandated purge list, compiled by a private firm, was provided to county supervisors of elections with names that were inexact matches. The data provided demonstrated that this list had at least a 14.1 percent error rate.
*
African Americans had a significantly greater chance of being listed on Florida’s mandated purge list. The probability of names of African Americans appearing on the list in error was significantly greater than the likelihood of the names of whites being erroneously included on the purge list.
*
The state of Florida’s use of this purge list, combined with the state law that places the burden on voters to remove themselves from the list, resulted in denying countless African Americans the right to vote.
Boomshakalaka
That's an "inditement" of the GOP controlled elections in Florida
You are being willfully ignorant here, Timg.
Willfully ignorant...
… is not something I do.
There are more than enough things out there I am ignorant of for me to have to be willfully so on things I do know about.
hakkaa päälle !
exactly
the system the way it’s constructed is EXTREMELY open to manipulation, fraud, intimidation, suppression, over-voting, and whatever other shenanigans people want to poll. BOTH parties do it in droves.
Trying to claim that one major party is any more guily of electioneering than the other is laughable and shows a “willful ignorance” of ALL the evidence, both anecdotal and factual, as well as a blind bias towards the party you particularly favor.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I lived in Florida
There is CLEAR discrimination between the haves and have nots there.
example: The electrical grid is set-up so that those who “have” have power faster than those who don’t. I never lost power for more than 30 minutes during the huricans. People 5 blocks away (ghetto is rather mixed there) and in other “ghetto” areas didn’t have power for days. I was there for four or five hurricanes, it wasn’t a coincidence and it was common knowledge with lifetime residents of the area.
Poling booths in those “ghetto” areas had 4 hour waits in lines. Other areas didn’t.
Information on the state was to sign up for services (DMV for example) are all online. if you don’t have access or don’t KNOW (see stupid out of towner) this, then you’re forced to wait in 5-8 hour lines.
Whether it’s racism or not, there’s definite classicism in Florida. It’s an interesting mix of EXTREME white trash/red neck/hillbilly (a person I worked with actually cooked road kill and didn’t get the jokes), and a large black/immigration community.
The facts of the election have already been posted. I can only add my own personal experience and observation as well as others I associated with while living in Florida.
We haven't done anything yet... but don't blink.
we can do this all day
Perhaps we can agree on this:
The voting systems currently in place are ill-equipped to handle very close elections. Due to a variety of factors, our system just is not setup to ensure only elibilible voters vote (and only once), and to ensure that votes are counted accurately. This is generally not a problem, but in the case of Florida 2000 and Washington 2004, it clearly was. And it will be again in any very close race.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Reading through the Executive Summary...
… I don’t see any mention of fraud or illegal activity.
What the report said is that they believe that there were several incidents or examples where Florida was in violation of the VRA. If you read the report, they had had problems with their system, the local officials often didn’t do a good job of dealing with them and tneither did top level officials, basically failing in their responsibilities. Government officials doing a poor job is a long way from fraud and illegal activity.
hakkaa päälle !
but this is florida
Ever work with someone who willfully doesn’t do their job, but does it in such a way that you can’t prove that they’re doing it with intent and not just sucking? Florida government is very much like that in areas.
We haven't done anything yet... but don't blink.
You won't be able to express . . .
your thoughts for much longer. Haven’t you
heard of the “Fairness Doctrine”. BO & Pelosi
have already said they will push for passage.
Free Speech will soon be under attack.
It's GO time !
I've read about suppression of minority voting
the latest article I’ve seen is this one:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27508967/
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
not if you're a weak-on-defense-classic-spend-and-tax blogger...
jk, I voted for him too despite my hatred for the Beavs.
by Bust a Bucket on Nov 3, 2008 7:38 PM PST up reply actions
Politicians
You all have to understand, McCain and Obama are both politicians. Whoever is elected is likely to disappoint you in some way, as both are tied to special interests. Every President elected has broken promises, it’s part of their job apparently. I’m Independent, and generally distrust politicians..because in today’s world, it’s less about what’s best for the people..and more about pork barrel politics and special interests. It’s more about gaining and holding power.
It’s always a tough decision for me during the presidential election, because after researching each candidate, I’m reminded that it is more a choice of the lessor of two evils. I don’t buy hype, be it marketing hype for a product or ‘marketing’ hype for a candidate. I’m into facts, not feelings when it comes to politicians.
If you’re interested, check out opensecrets.org for info on where each candidate funding and support, and factcheck.org to sort the fact from fiction with each candidate.
You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose.
-- Unknown
Broken promises
A lot of presidents run with integrity and good intentions, but quickly find the reality of the office (the whims of congress, cabinet members, the whole political game itself) precludes those intentions. Rather than voting on a platform of promises, I usually vote based on the candidates history of integrity combined with their intentions, and my own perceptions of those intentions (for example if someone goes all out in support of something like video game censorship, I find that disingenuous, or indicative of a candidate out of touch with the fact that adults of all stripe play video games just like adults go to movies).
by zaruga on Nov 3, 2008 9:14 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Obama in a landslide
For those of us on the west coast, an Obama victory in Virginia prefigures an Obama victory nationwide. An Obama victory in Virginia + an Obama victory in North Carolina prefigures an Obama landslide nationwide.
At around 5:00 pm PST, I will check the results from Virginia and North Carolina. I fully expect to see Virginia and North Carolina in the victory column for Obama. At that point I will celebrate because Obama will be winning in a landslide.
Our country is so much better than the last 8 years would suggest. Bu$h and the radical Republicans have nearly destroyed our country. NEARLY, but not quite. An Obama landslide is the beginning of the return to greatness of our beautiful country.
For those of you who voted or will vote for McSame-Failin’, I feel sorry for you. I really do. You are like chickens voting for Colonel Sanders.
Their 'thinking' is based not on critical judgment, but on what authority figures have said to them.
Many of them would attack France, Massachusetts, or the moon if the president said it was necessary "for freedom."
Highly compliant with social conventions, pro-conformity. Feel safer in the presence of powerful authorities. Often highly religious, zealous, dogmatic, moralistic, moderate to little education, narrow-minded, intolerant, highly prejudiced, hostile and bigoted towards minorities, bullying, mean-spirited, severely punitive, panic easily.
As distasteful as these qualities appear, for authoritarians they can be (secretly or even openly) very attractive.
I have a lot of very wealthy friends
…that are religiously pro-McCain. At least I can understand why someone in the upper-class would have interests there.
Actually,
if you pay attention to the polls the wealthy are voting for Obama. Also he (Obama) has received more money from big business for his campaign then any candidate in history. I wonder why that is? Hope and Change huh, pass the Kool Aid please!
Demonstrably false
Income Obama McCain 75k+ 48 46 50-75 50 43 30-45 55 36 30k- 64 26
The lower the income level, the better Obama does. I’d like to see numbers for even higher income levels, so if know where to find those, let me know.
Huh? Demonstrably false?
You just proved what I said, even with your skewed poll, the wealthy are voting for Obama. and to prove it further, check out the IBD poll, not hard to find just google IBD, the only one that had it right on in 04’ and you’ll see that just like your poll but even more pronounced the wealthy are voting for Obama, and the 50-75 income group is actually the only group voting for McCain, and it’s actually by a large margin 49-40 for McCain. Why is the midlle class voting for McCain if Obama is looking out for the middle class, or is the 30-45 group middle class in your book? Again, if McCain is getting more of the middle class vote, and he is, and Obama is getting more of the wealthy vote, and he is, why are the republicans the party of the rich? You do realize that 48 is more then 46 right? Don’t get me wrong if I was making less then 45k a year and not paying into the system I might be drawn to the candidate promising me free money, no matter how ridiculas that concept may be, but the question remains, why are the rich voting for Obama? You have a right to your opinion, but don’t try to blow smoke up my a@#.
I know politics are touchy
but don’t curse, even masked cursing is not allowed.
Are we looking at the same numbers?
The numbers I posted show McCain doing better with “rich” people than with any other group.
your numbers above show,
Obama getting 48% and McCain getting 46% in the 75k and above group. and my apologies for getting testy. it’s gonna be a rough day for me.
Well yeah he's winning among pretty much everyone
And this may be a particularly optimistic poll for him, but you have to compare between the categories, not just look at the absolute numbers. I’d really like to see figures for incomes of 200k+, 1M+, etc. but I guess those would be pretty hard to poll. My guess is that people with incomes over a million would favor McCain about 75-25.
You would think so,
that’s sort of my point. if Obama is going to raise capital gains as he says, then why are the majority of 75k and above voting for Obama? Why is he the guy looking out for the middle class but according to the only poll that was right on last election the middle class is the only level that McCain is winning. Why is he for the little guy but took more from big business then any other candidate in history? These wealthy companies that gave to the Obama campaign didn’t do it because they think he is a swell guy. that’s my point. because that doesn’t sound like hope and change to me, that sounds like saying one thing and doing another. Meanwhile, McCain kept his promise in regards to public financing, unlike Obama, and McCain has never taken an ear mark. That’s sort of weird don’t you think. How is Obama the candidate of hope and change? this is the biggest snow job I have ever witnessed.
Because
People are not voting on economic issues, just like every election. And Snr. McCain has taken millions upon millions of dollars in earmark funding, just none since he and Feingold reformed earmark-ing.
And its not like ear-marks are inherently a bad thing, they just dictate that the money going to a state has to be spent on a specific project, and the money doesn’t just go to the state’s budget. But now it does just go to the general budget, like the so-called ‘bridge to nowhere’ in Alaska.
And I would prefer that Snr. McCain use money that was given to his campaign like Snr. Obama is, instead of tax payer’s money. Yes, Snr. Obama went back on his promise, but I don’t mind that if it is better for tax-payers. Pres. George Bush (I) did that by going back on his no new taxes promise, and completely saved the Reagan-run economy.
Unless you think that the upper income people, have some secret information that the rest of us don’t have, your point is pretty weak. And they might be voting economically and honestly believe that Snr. Obama will be able to right the economy, and then they will be making more money regardless of a capital gains tax.
And that is kind of horrible that you think that only the high-income voters are knowledgeable, and completely are ignoring the low-income voters. They are also turning out for Snr. Obama at much higher levels than John McCain, why would this be happening unless Snr. Obama was going to do good things for the low-middle class? Neither point makes a whole lot of sense. Both classes believe that Snr. Obama is going to do good things for this country, whether economically, militarily, or socially depends on each person’s schema. These polls don’t tell us why they are voting for someone, just that they are voting for someone.
And the ‘only poll that was right’ claim is one that I don’t think you want to make…
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
sorry that first line should have read
People are not voting solely on economic issues.
And this website has listed a couple of the earmarks that John McCain has sponsored or supported just since 2003: http://thinkprogress.org/2008/01/06/mccain-earmark/
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
Why is going to be a rough day?
Because of the election or something totally unrelated?
hakkaa päälle !
Heck
Even small traditional Republicans are voting for the Democrat this year.
And I haven’t been small or Republican since my junior year in high school. In 8th grade civics class I gave a dorky speech about how great Reagan and the Republicans were. As I recall the main reason I liked the Republicans is my dad told me we could afford to go to Disneyland every summer because of the Reagan tax cuts. I really liked Disneyland in those days. Anyway, after I gave that dorky speech some of my classmates starting calling me a “dwarf GOP-er.”
I was a really small kid until my sophomore year in high school. I grew about 18 inches in three years, and then in my senior year I got kind of disgusted with all the Republican phoniness. For awhile I became a Marxist and then I slowly evolved into the moderate pragmatist that I am now.
Their 'thinking' is based not on critical judgment, but on what authority figures have said to them.
Many of them would attack France, Massachusetts, or the moon if the president said it was necessary "for freedom."
Highly compliant with social conventions, pro-conformity. Feel safer in the presence of powerful authorities. Often highly religious, zealous, dogmatic, moralistic, moderate to little education, narrow-minded, intolerant, highly prejudiced, hostile and bigoted towards minorities, bullying, mean-spirited, severely punitive, panic easily.
As distasteful as these qualities appear, for authoritarians they can be (secretly or even openly) very attractive.
U.S. Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) ...
is a center-left progressivist, dude.
The actual Marxist-Leninist in the 2008 United States presidential election is Gloria La Riva — who’s an extremist, radical revolutionary — of the Party for Socialism and Liberation.
I doubt you knew that, though.
I think he was being facetious.
At least I hope so.
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
sadly, I don't think so
sigh
Their 'thinking' is based not on critical judgment, but on what authority figures have said to them.
Many of them would attack France, Massachusetts, or the moon if the president said it was necessary "for freedom."
Highly compliant with social conventions, pro-conformity. Feel safer in the presence of powerful authorities. Often highly religious, zealous, dogmatic, moralistic, moderate to little education, narrow-minded, intolerant, highly prejudiced, hostile and bigoted towards minorities, bullying, mean-spirited, severely punitive, panic easily.
As distasteful as these qualities appear, for authoritarians they can be (secretly or even openly) very attractive.
Could you possibly
change your signature to something basketball-related. I find it quite elitist. This is a basketball blog, you know.
I think it's kind of cool
I like dwarf’s sig line. And you guys are so funny, objecting to a commenter’s sig! Me thinks there are a few folks who need to stop taking themselves so seriously. Perhaps the the content of dwarf’s sig describes you. No?
And BTW, did you know that you can make your own sig and have it automatically added to all your posts?
We cannot put up with this flagrant lack of accountability anymore.
Amen MT
I too think dwarf’s sig is cool. Nothing wrong with dropping a few thoughtful comments in your sig line. Ther are lots of posters on this site who have non-b’ball related stuff in their sigs.
And let’s not forget most of the people who post here are progressive. Look at the results of the poll above. Troglodytes who can’t handle intelligent discourse are more than welcome here, of course. But don’t expect to be able to dictate the content.
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
According to James Kunstler, who writes a well-respected if slightly profane financial blog whose title I cannot repeat here, "The Republicans must be clearly identified as the party that wrecked America... it's hard to imagine the American people giving the clean-up task to the very group that created the mess -- no matter how many cute little faces Sarah Palin can make on TV."
I don't think pigeon-holing an entire group of people is cool
and I am quite progressive. Actually, I think that makes me dislike it more. I have a feeling that people other than jamon and myself don’t like it either. It’s not unreasonable for us to ask that he not use something so inflammatory in his signature. I’m sure people will be a lot less sensitive now that the election is over, but that doesn’t mean signatures that blast the opposing side are something people want to see here.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
Which "group" exactly does the sig "pigeon-hole"?
Seems to me there are authoritarians in every political camp. There are authoritarian leftists and authoritarian rightists. And probably centrists too. I think the stuff in dwarf’s sig line is more about psychology than politics.
And I agree with MT Suit that Magnum and Jamon are being overly sensitive and overly serious. Time to lighten up a bit. And if you think dwarf’s sig is bad just look at vavoom’s, and maybe mine too. I can’t remember what my sig says but I suspect it might provoke similar calls for censorship.
The idea of supranational legality carries forward some of the best principles of Nuremberg – principles historically devalued by having been subordinated to Western-power interests. Nuremberg, after all, was supposed to be a triumph of higher morality over sheer military force, a great leap forward in the pursuit of global justice. Opening the tribunal, chief prosecutor Robert Jackson (an American) said "the privilege of opening the first trial in history for crimes against the peace of the world imposes a grave responsibility. The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored because it cannot survive their being repeated." To this Jackson prophetically added: "And let me make clear that while the law if first applied against German aggressors, the law includes, and if it is to serve a useful purpose, it must condemn aggression by any other nation, including those which sit here now in judgment."
by bilingual octopus on Nov 5, 2008 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
Mr. Blazers Rule is exactly why we should avoid sigs like that
Please don’t trot out censorship or free speech like this is an oppressive place. All I’m saying is that these quotes or personal phrases have a time and a place for their use. And please, I insist that you express yourself, but we’re trying to have a Blazers Blog. Since this is the election OT post, I’m totally on board with any political opinion of any kind, but when those sigs show up in a different thread, someone could easily hijack the thread if they don’t like the sig.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
Hmmm
I think you raise a good point. Hijacking is not cool unless we’re talking DB Cooper.
The idea of supranational legality carries forward some of the best principles of Nuremberg – principles historically devalued by having been subordinated to Western-power interests. Nuremberg, after all, was supposed to be a triumph of higher morality over sheer military force, a great leap forward in the pursuit of global justice. Opening the tribunal, chief prosecutor Robert Jackson (an American) said "the privilege of opening the first trial in history for crimes against the peace of the world imposes a grave responsibility. The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored because it cannot survive their being repeated." To this Jackson prophetically added: "And let me make clear that while the law if first applied against German aggressors, the law includes, and if it is to serve a useful purpose, it must condemn aggression by any other nation, including those which sit here now in judgment."
by bilingual octopus on Nov 5, 2008 1:40 PM PST up reply actions
Marxism is quite different from socialism
which is also different from communism
which is also different from the democratic party
please, let’s keep this discussion as intelligent as possible
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
Yeah, the democratic socialist in this election is ...
Brian Moore of the Socialist Party USA. In Congress, U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) is the only democratic socialist who’s currently elected to a seat in either house.
Bernie Sanders is living proof that every time McCain or his cronies call Barry "the most liberal Senator in the US Senate," they are lying...
FREE SERGIO -- Trade Him or Cut Him NOW!!!
Him and
Russ Feingold
Barbara Boxer
Sherrod Brown
Just some of my favorites. I’d rate Obama somewhere around 10th or 12th best.
I like U.S. Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-OH), as he's a true left-leaning populist.
Brown’s staunch, steadfast stance against free trade agreements pleases me; nonetheless, I’m still very disappointed that in voted favor of the fiscally imprudent, highly unjust Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008.
U.S. Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA), however, is much too fiscally liberal in my book; also, her support of legislated gun control means that she’s against “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
you do know...
…that the progressive income tax was started by Teddy Roosevelt, right? Ostensibly John McCain’s hero.
Boomshakalaka
you do know....
there’s a difference between a progressive income tax and one that pushes jobs off shore, right.
When Teddy introduced proggressive income tax we were an isolationist nation, today there is very little effort needed to move a business overseas to say Ireland, where you would pay roughly 25% less in business tax then in Obama’s America.
If you don’t think that would happen then you haven’t been paying attention over the last 30 years, it is and has been happening, and will continue to a large degree unless business has an incentive to stay in the US. the misconception from the left is that the right doesn’t want to take care of the less fortunate, that couldn’t be further from the truth. the fact is that the right has done the math. lower business taxes equals greater tax revenue, period. As well as that little 3 letter word, as Biden would say, JOBS!!!
There is a difference between
Headquarters being moved to other nations and jobs being outsourced.
You are alluding to the Laffer curve, but unless you can demonstrate what part of the curve we are on, it’s not possible to state that decreasing the tax rate will increase revenues. I’ve even heard from economist friends that we could increase the tax rate and still gain more revenue.
And don’t think that companies are moving overseas just for a lower tax rate. There are all sorts of legal reasons, that have nothing to do with taxes, for companies to move headquarters. And as long as there is cheap labor to be had in countries like India jobs will continue to move overseas. Lower taxes and cheap labor do make prices lower but they are only part of the picture.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
The Laffer curve...
is outdated, the world is much smaller and you have to take that into consideration. Also we have had 3 different periods of substantial tax rate cuts in the last 100 years in this country, each time, jobs increased and tax revenue increased. On the flip side I can’t find a time when substantial tax increases, especially to business resulted in a stronger economy. I’m trying my best to be open minded so if you can find an example of business tax increases helping the economy I would like to know, seriously.
And I agree, businesses are not moving just because of lower tax rates, but why would we give them more incentive?
yes, the Laffer curve is no good
but I never referred to a better economy, just more tax revenues, not that there isn’t a relationship between the government overspending its revenues and economic downturn and vice versa, the government cutting spending (has that ever happened) and an improved economy.
From what I know, tax cuts don’t improve the economy as the definition of economic growth is increased productivity. I think the biggest issue that prevents tax cuts from providing long term economic benefit is that they are never accompanied by cuts in government spending. The government having to borrow to make up the loss in revenue hurts savings and investment which offsets the tax cuts and often overwhelms the effect of the tax cut.
Also, there is something to be said for low interest rates helping drive the economy. Although, considering the mess we’re in now do to predatory lending and over=borrowing we might do well to avoid that until we can regulate it in such a way as to prevent gross abuse.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
+1
agreed completely. the Bush tax cuts were the right start. Unfortunately, instead of following them with spending cuts (or at least holding the line), the Republican congress went on a very Democratic-like spending spree. Which is why, IMHO, they got voted out of power in 2006.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Very democratic spending spree?
Reagan and Bush have given America the highest deficits in world history!
Clinton gave America a surplus.
You’re using an archaic model.
The Republican congress
gave America a surplus, which Clinton signed into law. As I recall, he had designs on spending much of it, but was unable to get it past the GOP congress of the time. the same congress who would abandon it’s core fiscal responsibilty principals just a few short years later.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
hmmm
that’s an interesting point, and something I’m embarrassed to admit I hadn’t considered.
I believe a balance of the two ideals is extremely healthy. whenever we run in one extreme or another it’s NEVER a good thing.
We haven't done anything yet... but don't blink.
agreed on that!
When elected in ’92, Clinton and congress tried to enact some fairly left-extreme things. It got them routed in ’94. Bush and the Republican Congress of the early ’00s up until about 2005 tried to (and did in some cases) enact some fairly right-extreme things. That, combined with the very unpopular war of course, got them trounced in ’06 and ’08.
Obama is now on deck. If he runs with the far-left led congress to enact fairly left-leaning legislation, I think we are in for a lot more of the same old same old partisan polictics. Time will tell if he does that, or if he truly governs as a slightly left of center pragmatist and post-partisan that he claims he wants to be.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Economic growth from increased productivity,
is a result of growing business, we don’t grow business with higher taxes. I totally agree on the cuts in government spending, but then the Republicans have tried several times to make a balanced budget law, and were shot down in flames. On the flip side some of the biggest government spenders have been Republicans.
A balanced budget law is one of those things
that sounds good in principle but does more harm than good. The government should restrict spending, but it’s a bad idea to not allow for deficit spending. Deficit spending should be the exception though, not the standard.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
Agreed
it’d be like telling the voters that they’re not allowed to use a credit card. Credit is healthy if used wisely and painful if abused.
We haven't done anything yet... but don't blink.
And ireland's economy
is going through hell right now. Combined with the fact that they have a small population, almost no natural resources, the fact that it is an island and so shipping costs to Ireland are sky high, they have a huge gov’t deficit compared to their GDP, and the Banks in Ireland are falling like a house of cards, I don’t think we have to worry about Ireland stealing our jobs.
Also, the fact that Obama would be the first president to try and introduce tax credits for job creation specific to this country, providing health insurance to workers, providing more money for education (the base of any economic growth) and putting funding into developing markets (green energy), I think we are going to be alright.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
Irelands economy is failing
because of ours, not because of their tax structure. Ours is failing because of the mortgage crisis – see Barney Frank, and Obama’s financial consultant.
See Phil Gramm
and the restructuring of the financial industry some highlights:
-Allows investors to act as insurers.
-Does not allow insurance credit checks.
Bush: In 2004 lowered the SEC requirements from allowing $1 to insure $30. to $1 to insure $60.
Yes, without this recent US problem, Ireland would continue being the economic powerhouse it has been for the last 400 years… c’mon… be somewhat serious…
Ireland’s economy is failing because it is built in a country that has little, has high shipping costs, and does not tax to a high enough level to avoid large budget deficits. Which has nothing to do with our recent economic troubles.
The reason why they have such low business taxes is because they need them to try and lure any business to Ireland.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
wow
The hatred and self-righteousness oozing from your post does not serve you well. Essentially calling the roughly half of the country who doesn’t agree with you “idiots” is not very conducive to civil debate or to changing minds. Do not forget, there are very few people that actually get to vote for a presidential candidate who agrees with all, or even most, of their own personal views. For most of us, we are left to weigh the proverbial “lesser of two evils”. I myself am unfortunate enough in that I share some views with both candidates, and even more views with neither of them. Yet choose I must, and often it will come down to weighing which issues I feel are most important to me, or which I feel are likely to even come into play in the administration.
Whether I agree with any of our past and current politician’s policies, I always try to approach my thinking of them on the basic premise of giving them the benefit of the doubt. I may not agree with whatever they are doing at the time, but I try to approach the situation by saying “Are they doing what they believe is the right thing, regardless of whether I agree or not?” Far more often than not, I think you can say they are. In short, I try not to attack their motivations. For the most part, whatever they have done to get to the office of President, once there, the holders of that office have handled major decisions with a serious approach and in the end have acted in what they believe is the best way possible. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any actions by any president on a major issues which were so aggregious that I would ascribe evil or greedy motives to then. Thankfully, up until now, we’ve been fortunate enough to have 43 men in that office who have always tried, above all, to do the right thing. They aren’t alway proven right by history, as none of us are, but their motives have mostly been the right ones.
At the end of the day, that’s about the best we can ask for. I believe that the best way to have honest debate, and promote intelligent rational conversation is to put aside the hatred, and the ascribing of evil or impure motives, and discuss the issues at hand. That’s what I always strive for when I discuss politics both with people with whom I agree, and those I don’t.
Try it some time, you might get a lot further than the aggressive, condescending approach taken above.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
by douglast on Nov 3, 2008 10:00 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Hey!
You can’t vote for “get this politics junk out of my basketball site” and then make multiple comments about politics. It’s just not right.
hehe
well, I always say “get this political stuff out of here” when people are constantly trying to throw it into fanposts about basketball things. It annoys me to no end, as BE is my last remaining refuge of political-free discussion, so yeah I voted that way.
But this topic was all about this issue, was clearly labeled as such, and was posted on election eve, so I’ll cut some slack this time.
And I can never not respond to something that gets my attention, it’s one of my weaknesses.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
And BTW
I didn’t write anything condescending in my initial post. I love America and I am sickened by what the Republicans and their Democrat enablers have done to my beautiful country.
Their 'thinking' is based not on critical judgment, but on what authority figures have said to them.
Many of them would attack France, Massachusetts, or the moon if the president said it was necessary "for freedom."
Highly compliant with social conventions, pro-conformity. Feel safer in the presence of powerful authorities. Often highly religious, zealous, dogmatic, moralistic, moderate to little education, narrow-minded, intolerant, highly prejudiced, hostile and bigoted towards minorities, bullying, mean-spirited, severely punitive, panic easily.
As distasteful as these qualities appear, for authoritarians they can be (secretly or even openly) very attractive.
And that is?
Seriously, dwarf. Just the fact you can waste the time to post here says that things can’t be that bad.
Exactly what has been done to “your” country?
hakkaa päälle !
The Republican Party is the party of big business. Period.
The only thing that the Republican leadership cares about is transfering wealth from the middle class to the very wealthy elite. Everything else is window dressing. Gays guns and God. Window dressing. They couldn’t care less about abortion or gay marriage. But that is the lipstick they put on their pigs to make gullible people vote for them.
Dig just a little bit into any Republican policy initiative — the Iraq debacle, No Child Left Behind, tax policies, the economic bailout for Wall Street, the obscene amount of $$ that is thrown into the Pentagon, etc etc etc — and you will discover little more than a socially and economically disastrous scheme to transfer wealth upward to the Republican donor base. That is what being a Republican has become reduced to: using government to enrich Republican campaign contributors, who then funnel a relatively tiny fraction of their ill-gotten loot back into the campaign coffers of Republican politicians. that was the whole point of the K Street project. That is the whole point of Republican rule.
The entire war/occupation in Iraq and the phony “war on terror” are essentially giant money-laundering schemes — sociopathically brilliant schemes to “legally” rob the public treasure and shovel trillions of $$ into the accounts of military and surveillance contractors.
This is what I meant to say in my earlier post, put another way: Regular people (non-millionaires) who vote for candidates that are consistently and aggressively opposed to the economic interests of regular people are IDIOTS. They are indeed analogous to chickens who vote for Colonel Sanders.
If you think the motives behind the Iraq debacle or the Wall Street bailout were laudable (and yes, I know Obama voted for the bailout), or the motives behind the decision to let New Orleans drown, were virtuous and pure, then I have some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.
Sorry if I offended you or anyone else. But it’s gotta be said.
Their 'thinking' is based not on critical judgment, but on what authority figures have said to them.
Many of them would attack France, Massachusetts, or the moon if the president said it was necessary "for freedom."
Highly compliant with social conventions, pro-conformity. Feel safer in the presence of powerful authorities. Often highly religious, zealous, dogmatic, moralistic, moderate to little education, narrow-minded, intolerant, highly prejudiced, hostile and bigoted towards minorities, bullying, mean-spirited, severely punitive, panic easily.
As distasteful as these qualities appear, for authoritarians they can be (secretly or even openly) very attractive.
by dwarfgoper on Nov 4, 2008 1:14 AM PST up reply actions 6 recs
If you haven't noticed . . .
The Democrats have been in control of
Congress since 2006, and Congress has
a 11 % approval rating. That’s even lower
than President Bush.
Nancy Pelosi stated upon assuming the Speaker
of the House’s position, We have two goals:
1. Get the U.S. out of Iraq.
2. We (the Democrats) have a common sense approach
for keeping gas prices low.
I guess that didn’t work out too well. The next failure, if elected is
BO’s proposed energy plan. Cap & Trade will " make electric prices
skyrocket". That’s quite a plan to add onto our already struggling
economy, all based on psuedo science from Gore & his
academic elitists buddies. Thousands of scientists have stood up
to dispute and refute these GW claims.
It's GO time !
by walkoff41 on Nov 4, 2008 2:23 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I recommend bookmarking this post
Because walkoff has it exactly right.
If Congress passes Cap & Trade legislation on CO2 emissions, you won’t have a choice about “conserving”. You won’t be able to afford a good deal of what you take for granted now. But you can be assured that your elected officials (and most certainly those paragons of conservation in Hollywood) will not have to do without.
What is truly amazing is that all it takes is some 5th grade math to figure out what’s real and what is so much hot air (no pun intended). Nearly 75% of electrical generation in this country is provided by coal (52) and nuclear (21). Even the most optimistic projections for wind and solar power have them accounting for perhaps 20% of todays load demand. It doesn’t take into account the fact that demand is expected to increase by about 40% in the US over the next 10 – 12 years. So where does that extra energy come from?
And lets not forget transportation. If we are to reduce our “carbon footprint”, switching to alternate fuels / power supplies for our cars is a must. While there are multiple paths to lowering fuel consumption, one of the most likely will be electric and/or plug-in hybrids. Guess what they are going to do to electricity demand?
And let’s not forget, as Oregonians, our part. Another of the practical methods for utilizing new energy sources is increased usage of natural gas. In most of the world it gets burned off as a waste product from oil drilling. The technology exists to capture and transport that “waste product” and use it to produce electricy or even as an alternative fuel for transportation. Of course try proposing to build a LNG facility. Can’t have those in Oregon. No way.
In other words, before talking about alternative or green energy, make sure you understand basic math. Once you’ve done that, we can progress to some science courses, in order that you can talk about global climate change and not sound like an idiot.
walkoff – what do you think the odds are anyone will actually listen to this?
hakkaa päälle !
How many filibusters did the Republicans in the Senate have again? Eighty-something... How many vetoes?
You want to know why Congress is at 11%, it’s because DEMOCRATS are pissed they haven’t knocked heads and pushed through their program despite Republican obfuscation…
We’ll see how things roll starting in January, 57-43 in the Senate and in control of the White House.
THEN 11% would mean something…
FREE SERGIO -- Trade Him or Cut Him NOW!!!
And in response to an earlier post...
BOTH parties are in the pockets of big business. The Republicans brazenly, the majority “centrist” wing of the Democratic Party discretely…
FREE SERGIO -- Trade Him or Cut Him NOW!!!
agreed
no doubt true buddy
That is the Nader argument.
Their 'thinking' is based not on critical judgment, but on what authority figures have said to them.
Many of them would attack France, Massachusetts, or the moon if the president said it was necessary "for freedom."
Highly compliant with social conventions, pro-conformity. Feel safer in the presence of powerful authorities. Often highly religious, zealous, dogmatic, moralistic, moderate to little education, narrow-minded, intolerant, highly prejudiced, hostile and bigoted towards minorities, bullying, mean-spirited, severely punitive, panic easily.
As distasteful as these qualities appear, for authoritarians they can be (secretly or even openly) very attractive.
That's why I never understood the adoration that may folks ...
have for Hillary Clinton and/or the Bill Clinton Administration during the ‘90s, as their brand of third way centrism led by the New Democrats within the Democratic Leadership Council was only a slight, brief shift from Ronald Reagan,George H. W. Bush, and ultimately George W. Bush’s implementation of neoconservatism.
For Clinton’s part, he was his era’s version of the ‘60s paleoliberal wing within the Democratic Party — which included Lyndon Johnson, Hubert H. Humphrey, Henry “Scoop” Jackson, et al. — on the other hand, Obama represents the change that George McGovern could’ve brought to America had he defeated Richard Nixon in the ’72 U.S. presidential election.
W's a neocon ?
Try a “stealth” conservative. He’s definatly a Globalist !
Both are wrong.
It's GO time !
Filibusters
one more example of what is wrong with our polical system. Why on earth do we have a process for endless delay of voting?
Good god
get off your high horse. Snobby people on both sides of this discussion are really unappealing.
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
Agreed
This is why political threads are no good. Everyone thinks they know better than everyone else. At least in basketball you can point to an 82 game season and the playoffs for your answer.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
Yeah, its not the political discussion that I dislike
In fact, I enjoy reading the posts of educated, well-reasoned people who are certainly closer to being experts than I am.
It’s when people take on a condescending, lecturing tone (and this is directed toward both sides, although its less bad when people agree with me, haha) and talk down to readers and to the person on the other side of the argument.
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
Small groups usually do better on topics like these
The anonymity of the internet is also a big problem. It’s less of an issue here because a great community has developed and we are (usually) very dedicated to keeping the level of conversation very high. But does it seem like new people pop up on topics that get people riled up? Or am I just more likely to notice a new person making a bold statement?
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
the fact that projections never take into account future use
ALWAYS drives me nuts.
We haven't done anything yet... but don't blink.
Zero !
As a History/Political Science/Education major, I can
tell you that indoctrination has been in place in our
schools for over 30 years. If you want to see where
“education” (re-education) is headed, just google
Bill Ayers – Venezuela. All education is revolution !
It's GO time !
If all you say is true - then buy stock in those companies
that Republican politicians are funneling the money to.
I’m curious as to how much has actually changed over the past 60 + years. Granted, up until the war in Iraq, defense spending as a percentage of GNP was at historic lows. But I don’t know that I’d call what has happened with regard to spending on Iraq as part of some master plan. Perhaps a master plan gone wrong, but certaintly not some fiendish way to enrich a few. I’m pretty much willing to bet my house that nowhere in the planning for Iraq did they envision spending this amount of money.
Here’s what I love about folks who criticize the administration on Iraq – most of them completely miss the point. Most argue the US has no business being there. That we never should have invaded. The simple fact is one can name several valid reasons for going into Iraq. Where the criticisim (in my opinion) should be directed is towards how poorly thought out and executed the plan was.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Nov 4, 2008 7:48 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
oh
and I’ll agree with you on Iraq. Not sure whether we should have gone or not – valid arguments can be made on both sides. But the planning and handling of things since we went has been disastrous.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Your are stating your opinion as if it is fact
Sorry, it’s just opinion. “Regular people” might prefer the (former) Republican tenets of economic self-sufficiency and personal responsibility to the Democratic tenets of wealth redistribution, by whatever name it’s being currently packaged under. That doesn’t mean they are voting against THEIR economic interests, it means they are voting against YOUR preferred economic interests.
Guess what? I got a tax cut in 2001. So did every other person who actually pays taxes. Yes, the ultra-rich got a bigger $ tax cut, but since they already pay the vast vast majority of taxes, it would be hard for them not too. The lower and middles classes got a bigger percentage cut, by the way, but you never hear that part.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
................... and how did those tax cuts affect the national debt?
………………………………………… or the distribution of wealth between rich and poor?
FREE SERGIO -- Trade Him or Cut Him NOW!!!
well, as I recall, overall tax receipts went up. The cuts didn’t affect the debt, the wave of spending after that did.
What do I care about distribution of wealth? There is not a finite supply of it. This country provides unlimited opportunity for anyone to improve their own financial standing through hard work, talent, and a bit of luck. It should not be the policy of a government to take from one person and give to another.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
by douglast on Nov 4, 2008 2:10 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
hmmm
bq.If you think the motives behind the Iraq debacle or the Wall Street bailout were laudable (and yes, I know Obama voted for the bailout), or the motives behind the decision to let New Orleans drown, were virtuous and pure, then I have some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.
1) Iraq: I never said the motives were laudable. I said they were at least made in good faith, whether you agree with them or not. It was a reasonable decision to come to, given the facts and history. Whether it was ultimately the right decision is for history to decide
2) Bailout: I was as agaisnt this just as much as I was agaisnt big government bailouts for New Orleans and WTC widows. That said, again we are talking about the motives here. I believe that the politicians on both sides who pushed for the bailout bill truly believe it was the right thing to do to help avoid a deepened recession. (other than the pork they threw in of course).
3) “the decision to let New Orleans drown” Can you elaborate please? I am not aware of any such decision made by anyone. This is a gross oversimplification at best, and a downright falsehood at worst. There were all manners of logistical and decision making errors involved in the leadup and aftermath of Katrina, at local (Ray Nagin and the buses come to mind), state (Blanco), and federal (FEMA/Brown) levels. But in no case can I recall anyone “deciding to let New Orleans drown”. It’s not as if Bush had the power of God to part the seas.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Couldn't he just ask God to do it?
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
Just great
The only thing that the Republican leadership cares about is transfering wealth from the middle class to the very wealthy elite. Everything else is window dressing. Gays guns and God. Window dressing. They couldn’t care less about abortion or gay marriage. But that is the lipstick they put on their pigs to make gullible people vote for them.
Dig just a little bit into any Republican policy initiative — the Iraq debacle, No Child Left Behind, tax policies, the economic bailout for Wall Street, the obscene amount of $$ that is thrown into the Pentagon, etc etc etc — and you will discover little more than a socially and economically disastrous scheme to transfer wealth upward to the Republican donor base. That is what being a Republican has become reduced to: using government to enrich Republican campaign contributors, who then funnel a relatively tiny fraction of their ill-gotten loot back into the campaign coffers of Republican politicians. that was the whole point of the K Street project. That is the whole point of Republican rule.
The entire war/occupation in Iraq and the phony "war on terror" are essentially giant money-laundering schemes — sociopathically brilliant schemes to "legally" rob the public treasure and shovel trillions of $$ into the accounts of military and surveillance contractors.
This is what I meant to say in my earlier post, put another way: Regular people (non-millionaires) who vote for candidates that are consistently and aggressively opposed to the economic interests of regular people are IDIOTS. They are indeed analogous to chickens who vote for Colonel Sanders.
If you think the motives behind the Iraq debacle or the Wall Street bailout were laudable (and yes, I know Obama voted for the bailout), or the motives behind the decision to let New Orleans drown, were virtuous and pure, then I have some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.
Sorry if I offended you or anyone else. But it’s gotta be said.
I blockquoted the entire thing, so people would know to which comment I’m replying.
Obviously, you aren’t sorry if you offended anyone, and it didn’t have to be said.
As a neutral in this battle, I will say again that political hate speech like this is unnecessary. The fact is, well over 40% of your fellow-citizens think that the Republican solution to your country’s problems is a better solution than the Democratic solution. Apparently you think they are all stupid or evil. But those 48% or whatever it is want the same things you want, and just have a difference of opinion as to what is the best way to get it.
It appears to me that the American left are sore losers when they lose and sore winners when they win.
But this kind of political hate speech, and the fact that people actually recommend it, and that a political hate rant like this is actually turned green, makes me question whether I even want to be part of this community. I can get my Blazers news elsewhere, I suppose. If this kind of rubbish keeps appearing on the basketball threads, even after the election, I’m going to be out of here. It’s one thing on a clearly marked OT thread like this, but quite another in the other threads. And it’s inappropriate on this thread or anywhere else, as well.
And spare me the “The right does it, too” comments. I know they do. But they don’t do it on Blazers Edge, they do it on their political blogs and political sites. It’s inappropriate when they do it, too, wherever they do it, but they at least seem to show some sense of propriety as to when and where they do their political hate rants.
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.
Not MY life, dude. The COUNTRY has been run into a ditch.
Our economy has been badly damaged by radical Republican economic policies. Our military has been badly damaged by radical Republican foreign policies. Our standing and reputation has been badly damaged by the Iraq debacle, extraordinary rendition, torture, Abu Graib, Guantanamo, and flagrant disregard for international law. Our Constitution has been undermined by executive “signing statements,” utter disregard for the balance of powers between our three branches of govt, illegal surveillance, and the use of taxpayer $$ to fund religious organizations, to name a few.
Their 'thinking' is based not on critical judgment, but on what authority figures have said to them.
Many of them would attack France, Massachusetts, or the moon if the president said it was necessary "for freedom."
Highly compliant with social conventions, pro-conformity. Feel safer in the presence of powerful authorities. Often highly religious, zealous, dogmatic, moralistic, moderate to little education, narrow-minded, intolerant, highly prejudiced, hostile and bigoted towards minorities, bullying, mean-spirited, severely punitive, panic easily.
As distasteful as these qualities appear, for authoritarians they can be (secretly or even openly) very attractive.
nice opinions
But they are just that. and spouting them out en masse without any substantive backup is not going to convince anyone who isn’t already in agreeance with you.
in regards to International Law, I give not a hoot about it. I look to the constitution and laws of our government first. If that conflicts with international law, then I go with our stuff every time. Now if you are talking about treaties we entered into legally with the consent of congress and the signature of the President, then I’m with you.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
so,
How has our economy been damaged by radical republicans? I thought the mortgage crisis was caused by lax lending policies pushed by the democrats, am I wrong? prior to this we enjoyed 7 of the best economic times this country has ever seen.
Our reputation has been damaged from a war we fought based on information reviewed by both congress and the president in which all agreed on the decision. A war in which we freed millions from a dictator that was systematically killing 10’s of thousands of his own people? Have you forgotten the dancing in the streets when we liberated them?
International law, what country do you live in?
Dissregard to the balance of power, name one example please, and how did this not result in an impeachment?
Tax payer dollars to fund religious organizations? how about tax payer dollars funding left wing political organizations. ACORN.
Are you really defending the current administration as not being at fault for many of the serious problems we are facing today?
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
I think he's asking for some specifics.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Well, if you watch CPAN rather than CNN...
… you might realize that the current administration tried to reign in the entities who were perhaps the biggest enablers of the financial turmoil coming out of bad loans.
If you want to widen the scope, you could point to the Federal Reserve (particularly Greenspan) who championed limited regulation of the securities markets. However Greenspan served through multiple Presidents, both Republican and Democrat. The policies he espoused were supported by members of both parties.
hakkaa päälle !
Well, before believing everything you hear...
… it is usually a good reality check to see where you are at. If your life is going pretty good, it’s a good bet that the country is not in anywhere near as bad of shape as some would have you believe.
Skipping the economy, as government policy is one of the least of factors that impact it, the rest of your statements are either exagerations or just plain not true. Our military is not “badly damaged”. On the contrary, we currently have the best contingent of young men and women ever to serve this country, and they are being given equipment and technology that was almost unimaginable even a decade ago. Here is something that is not opinion – by any standard you want to choose, the men and women is the Unitied States military ARE the greatest generation ever. Never before has this nation seen such a high quality of volunteer during a period of war.
The standing and reputation of the US is solid in the places it counts. We are still the place most people (and governments) trust to invest their money. We are still the one nation counted on to lead by the rest of the world when it comes to solving problems. We are still the nation much of the world either wants to immigrate to or emulate. Public opinion polls are not what count. What counts are the actions of other governments and, to an extent, how the voters of many of those governments choose their officials. Try explaining why France, Germany and Italy all elected leaders that were considerably more pro-US than their predecessors.
Flagrant disregard for international law? How so? Disregard of the “balance of powers” – where? Exactly what changes to the Consitution occurred that changed this balance? Illegal Surveillance? Where are the convictions? I have a pretty big Libertarian bent and ended up having many long discussions with my youngest brother, who until recently was the US Attorney for SC. Try sitting down with a lawyer who is actually familiar with the details, rather than listening to talking media heads (who could be lawyers, but are still talking heads – i.e. they get paid to say stuff.) You will find that things were / are not so flagrant as you believe.
Dwarf, you are entitled to your opinions. I only caution that you do some in depth study and analysis of an issue before holding such dire opinions. Things are rarely as bad as you make them out to be. Those who would have you believe they are, most likely have a reason to want you thinking that way.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Nov 4, 2008 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Too bad...
if you vote, it shows up in your profile.
I guess if you want everyone to know your big secret, you should vote in this poll.
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Nov 3, 2008 8:59 PM PST reply actions
yeah...
that’s why i voted, “it’s a secret”
;)
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Nov 3, 2008 9:53 PM PST up reply actions
National politicians are all evil.
Voting for president is like being forced to pick between who was worse, Hitler or Stalin? They are all money grubbing whores that only press the issues that their lobbyists who fund their campaign tell them to press. The only difference between republicrats and democrans is the speed at which they fall to their knees when the corporations come knocking. REAL change isn’t going to come to this country until it becomes profitable to do so by big oil, big insurance, big energy, and the pharmaceutical companies. They are who really run things. Money drives everything….that being said I still vote and am excited for this election.
by oden is GOD OF WAR on Nov 3, 2008 9:04 PM PST reply actions
Lobbyists
Aren’t you at least a little encouraged by Obama’s anti-lobbyist rhetoric, and his claims of not taking money from them? Now, maybe there’s some loopholes and it’s not 100% true, but at least it’s a good step.
And look at a quote like this
“The reason that we’re not getting things done is not because we don’t have good plans or good policy prescriptions,” Obama said. “The reason is because it’s not our agenda that’s being moved forward in Washington — it’s the agenda of the oil companies, the insurance companies, the drug companies, the special interests who dominate on a day-to-day basis in terms of legislative activity.”
It might be partially political BS, but it still gives me a little hope.
nope
It’s just a different set of special interests.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
yeah
its always great when the special interests behind the scenes are working on things that YOU (a generic you, not a pualo you) like and support, but it sucks when the shoes on the other foot, huh?
I hate ‘em all personally. I’m for a minimalist federal government, which is about 80 years passe now, and neither major party will ever support. it’s all about power, and more regulation and more bureauocracy equals more power.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
So you're part of the small government special interest.
Just kidding; I should leave you alone. I don’t think I agree with your politics too much, but I find you eminently reasonable, which is always nice. I’ll try not to talk to much about my ideas much, so you won’t have to say the opposite about me.
funny
other than being for small government, I don’t think ive said much about my politics – so not sure how you know you don’t agree with me. unless you like big, beheamoth, do everything for you big government that is. ;-)
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Well that
plus your implication that both parties are equally dirty, plus the idea that bunches of people are voting fraudulently. There’s plenty or dirt to go around, but that doesn’t make close to equal. And I don’t think more than a thousandth of a percent of votes are ever cast illegally, outside a few specific cases in the past. Oh, and I do like big government. See, I know who I disagree with :)
here's the problem with illegally-cast votes
we have no way of knowing how often it hapens. anyone can do it, and it’s difficult to catch before/when it happens, and nearly impossible after the fact. We simply don’t know.
Both parties ARE equally dirty. Anyone on either side who doesn’t believe that is drinking the Kool Aid (or seeing only what transgressions they choose to see), in my humble opinion.
I suppose it would surprise you then if I told you I voted for Obama?
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
No it wouldn't surprise me.
There’s a broad range of people voting for him of course. I hope we both end up being reasonably happy with him.
BO's lobbyists . . .
Radical Environemntal groups (Earth 1st, Sierra Club, NWF, etc.),
Trial lawyers (BO is a civil rights attorney), Labor & Teachers Unions,
Wall Street Investment firms (Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch, Overseas
interests like Hamas and other Palestinian groups. He’s been endorsed
by the Nation of Islam, the American Communist party and the Presidents of
Iran and Venezuela. What more do you need to know ?
It's GO time !
I hear President Bush endorsed McCain
Unless you’re part of the 24% of people who think he’s doing a good job that is certainly not a good thing. Of course Obama has lobbyists, it would be naive to think otherwise. However, you cloud your good counter point by insinuating he’s a communist or supports Iran. Just because they endorsed him, which I wasn’t aware of and would like to see evidence of, doesn’t mean Obama wants their support.
If I formed a group called Crazy Freedom Hating Nutjobs and endorsed McCain, would that mean anything?
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) will rue the day that he selected ...
Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin® to be his running mate over Minn. Gov. Tim Pawlenty®.
Despite being a libertarian socialist in the mold of Noam Chomsky, I can objectively analyze political races from an unbiased standpoint. Pawlenty, unlike Palin, could’ve potentially swung a few Upper Midwest states (i.e., Minnesota, Wisconsin, & Iowa) in McCain’s favor — especially with regards to his progressive stance on renewable energy — however, the old man overplayed his hand in a failed attempt to swing centrist women.
While Palin does well with reactionary ultraconservatives in mossbacked areas of this country, she polls horrendously when it comes to moderates throughout the industrial parts of the Rust Belt, everywhere in Florida sans the panhandle, and in Northern Virginia. All things considered, the selection of Palin was a death sentence to the McCain campaign—and that’s that!
+1
Given that one of the biggest concerns the media has been trumping about McCain is his age and ability to live out his term, picking a backwater governor with about the same amount of governing experience as Obama as his running mate was not smart.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I have some friends that said the same thing.
My favorite teams are the Blazers and any team that is playing the Lakers.
I wonder why that is?
Is it because she is a strong woman with Governing experiance? I would love to find out what it is about that woman that would turn anyone off, sure as heck isn’t her looks! But then I’m a backwoods redneck that pays his taxes and believes in God so I’m obviously out of touch.
ummm... Look.
This has got nothing to do with a woman running for president. I don’t think anyone feels in the least bit threatened by her. I don’t think the fact that you are a god-fearing, tax-paying, backwoods republican has anything to do with you being out of touch. But you clearly are if you are trying to say that Palin is only disliked by people because she is a woman, there are plenty of other reasons to dislike her.
If all you see in her is a “strong woman with Governing experience” than I would have to say that you have had a very limited view of her.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
I'm asking why? Give me the reasons.
I would really like to know your view, I ask this allot of folks that don’t like her and never get an answer. If you have a particular reason or 2 not to like her and what she stands for I would really like to know. considering her competition is apparently Obama, the experiance clearly goes to her.
Yay!
Alright:
She is literally less knowledgeable about Foreign Politics then I am. Ex. not knowing the Bush Doctrine, believing that her proximity to a foreign country was basis for having expertise in it…
She has lied several times saying that she didn’t lobby for or accept the money for the ‘bridge to nowhere’. She did not lobby for the money, but she did not return it either.
She is fundamentally against abortion rights.
She is against providing Morning After Pills to rape victims.
In her short time in the governor’s office she has already been convicted of grievous mis-use of political power. (she was not however convicted on any criminal charges)
Her defense of her horrible interviews, and clear lack of knowledge during rudimentary political questioning, as the media doing “gotcha” politics?
Her belief that we can drill our way out of an energy shortage. Her approval of a LNG line through Wildlife refuges in Alaska.
Her belief that somehow tax breaks are somehow socialism, while handing out $3269 to Alaskans, and still requesting more pork-barrel funding per person than any other state.
The fact that she continues to claim that she is a Maverick (with absolutely nothing to back that claim up), which does no justice to McCain who actually did vote independently and for his state’s good until 2000.
I perceive her to be petty, manipulative, and a liar. Which is clearly subjective, but so is my vote. These are the reasons why I think that she shouldn’t be elected. You easily could say that all of these things are things you support, which is fine. But these are the reasons I do not like her.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
by TheOdenator on Nov 4, 2008 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks,
I do happen to agree with her on many of your examples.
You may be very knowledgable about foreign policy, so I certainly can’t argue that. I would have no basis. My gut says no but like I said I have no basis.
She didn’t lobby for the bridge to nowhere. good enough.
I am fundamentaly against abortion. I never heard the one about morning after pills, but if I had the power to make that decision for someone else I would probably vote against it also, although it would be the hardest thing I would ever have to do, but I would also put the rapist to death as soon as convicted.
She hasn’t been convicted of anything.
Giving money to those that don’t pay taxes is socialism. tax breaks are when you lower taxes on those that pay into the sytem.
The money handed out to Alaskens is for the oil. your welcome to it if you want to move to Alaska.
She took down the old boys network, Republicans in Alaska, that were lining their pockets and the pockets of big oil. She is a maverick. No one else did it, she did it. that’s a maverick.
thanks for your response and congrats on the election…
If John McCain wanted to pick a female running mate, then ...
competent options were on the table — such as center-right neoconservative U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-TX) or, perhaps, one of Maine’s two high-profile centrists (i.e., U.S. Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME) & U.S. Sen Olympia Snowe (R-ME) — however, he foolishly decided to roll the dice with a far-right religious wingnut in Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, whose political career will hopefully be completely destroyed after this election cycle.
Palin, by the way, certainly isn’t the most qualified female politician from Alaska — especially since she’s a faux reformer with little experience who holds culturally illiberal values — for moderate U.S. Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) is superior to her in every way, shape, and form.
her religion and the policies that she embraces because of those beliefs
remember, remember the fifth of November
McCain didn't choose Palin
to swing centrist women.
He chose Palin to motivate the conservative base, because he was losing them, and to try to pick up blue collar workers in Ohio/Pennsylvania who are anti-elitist. By choosing a non-elite, he was making a play for those two key swing states.
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.
Along with some of his other plays
but really, I don’t think there was anything he could have done. This was Obama’s to lose from day one. And while he made a few blunders along the way, none big enough to really impact the race.
The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.
On one final note, Barack Obama will defeat John McCain ...
by an electoral vote of 291 to 247. Y’all can take that to the bank.
I'm guessing that you've got Barack Obama winning Montana, too, ...
which’d be a decent upset—even though both Ron Paul (CP) and Bob Barr (L) are on the ballot there.
Pragmatically, however, I expect that Barack Obama won’t quite nab Ohio and Florida, while holding onto Pennsylvania and picking up Virginia. After winning Virginia, the Mountain West swing states (i.e., Colorado & Nevada) and New Mexico will fall for Obama.
Well I'm going for an optimistic estimate
I picked the Blazers to win 53 games, too. If I wanted to be safer, I should probably go for 353 (OH, FL, NC, NV, CO, VA, but not MO, IN, MT, ND, GA).
my picks:
The worst I can see for Obama is a 273-264 victory (Obama takes the Kerry states + NM, Iowa and CO).
my most likely scenario is Obama 338-McCain 200 (Obama also takes Florida, Virginia, Ohio, Nevada)
The best I can see for Obama is 375-163 (above states plus North Carolina, Missouri, Indiana)
Boomshakalaka
Nice post, Mr. Snake.
I don’t think Barry runs FL, VA, OH, NV — he’ll take the last-mentioned and will squeak out one of the other 3. No way he loses NM, IA, CO.
PA will also be close, mind you.
Close final tally, in other words.
FREE SERGIO -- Trade Him or Cut Him NOW!!!
Spencer Hawes does
And I remember an discussion on Golden State of Mind, when in a thread about potentially trading for Stephon Marbury someone said “that’s like voting for McCain”, followed by over 300 angry back and forth comments.
You must have the same type of sister
that my co-worker has. Marianne is always talking about the stuff her sister sends her (except she’s apparently on the opposite end of the spectrum from your sister).
hakkaa päälle !
not voting?
Who are the 10 people (so far) who did not vote for anyone?!? You better be too young or foreign.
your predictions are too high
No way Obama wins the national vote by 8 points. I think it will be closer to 51-47.
Obama will win Oregon handily, but not by 16 points. It will be more like 55-45 I think.
Over the last 3-4 elections cycles, polling organizations and especially exit polling have pretty consistently over-estimated the democratic vote. there has been a number of studies analyzing why this is the case, but it appears to be true. It should be even worse this year, given that Obama supporters are very enthusiastic and want to tell everyone about it, while many McCain voters will likely be holding their nose and voting for their personal “lesser of two evils”. Add in the racial angle, where some people will not admit they aren’t voting for Obama in fear of being branded a racist, and you have a prime setup for some serious over-polling.
Obama will win, getting about 310 electoral votes
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
true about exit polling
Exit polling has a notorious democratic lean, with 2004 being one of the more dramatic examples.
That’s not the case with regular polling. The final poll average had Bush by 1 in ’04 and he won by 3. In ’00, the final polling showed Bush with a significant lead, and Gore won the popular vote.
Boomshakalaka
guess we'll call it a split
you had the 16-point Oregon margin dead on (as of this writing), but I was closer on the national margin (52-47).
I was way off on my EV estimates. I didn’t have him getting Virgina and Indiana (26) and I thought McCain would barely hold Florida (27). Take out those 3, and Obama’s at 296 right now, with Missouri and NC outstanding. I had him getting MO, putting him at 307.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Obama
You know it’s interesting. In a historical sense, Obama is a pretty weak candidate. He has very little experience, his past indicates he is much further toward the fringe of his party than any recent president, and the traditional media have done almost nothing to vet him or challenge him.
Yet here he is, about to run away with a clear victory. Why?
1) McCain isn’t exactly a strong candidate in his own right, although he is considerably closer to the center of the spectrum than Obama is.
2) The general mood of the country is one clamoring for “change”. Bush and the Republicans are viewed as the status quo, and Obama is the wind of change blowing in from out of town — just like Bush was when he won in 2000.
3) This election is all about Bush, and McCain’s efforts to distance himself from the incumbent have not worked, not helped in the least by the “R” next to his name.
In a normal election cycle, Obama would be hard pressed to compete. But this is no normal election – the anti-Republican tailwind is so strong.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
If I was going to vote
I would have voted on which wife I’d most like to bang and I would have voted McCain. Michelle is attractive, but she just doesn’t do it for me. Once Obama gets elected, she should be able to afford a nice set of double D’s.
This space for rent.
hahahahahah
thanks for making me laugh TiH
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
that's funny
a close friend of mine said she’s voting Obama because she would go lesbian for Michelle. To each his/her own.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
I don't like Michelle's mouth
It’s too big in a Julia Roberts and her brother sort of way. I still think she is pretty, but just not my thang. I’ll keep my women like Flo Jo or Serena.

This space for rent.
Good god
I think TiH just disproved Newton.
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
Reminds me of the butt-puffer underwear from yesterday's JD...
FREE SERGIO -- Trade Him or Cut Him NOW!!!
While I disagree...
that Obama is a fringe candidate, there is no question that his “outsider” status is helping him in this “change” election.
Indeed, Obama has led something of a charmed political life— his opponent in his US Senate campaign (Jack Ryan) dropped out of the race after a scandal, and the late game replacement, Alan Keyes, was not able to mount a serious challenge.
I also don’t know that McCain is closer to the center than Obama. The 2000 version of McCain would have had a real shot in this campaign, but I don’t know that voting with Bush 90% of the time can be considered in the center when Bush’s approval ratings are as low as they are.
In the end, McCain’s big blunder was the Palin pick— she was a pick that appealed to the base in a cycle where he needed to appeal to the center.
I fully agree with your last sentence. Obama has been greatly helped by the anti-republican tailwind this year.
Boomshakalaka
...
I didn’t say he was a fringe candidate, I said his history suggests he is a candidate more skewed to the outliers of his party on the political spectrum than anyone who’s been president of late.
I think by any reasonable assessment of their records, McCain is far more centrist than Obama. Citing 90% senate votes is misleading, due to the mechanics and procedures of senate voting in general.
Agreed on Palin, as stated above. Although I’m not sure if anything he did could have stemmed the anti-republican tide. It was probably worth a gamble to pick a woman and hope for some novelty votes and disaffected Hillary supporters.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Honestly I believe this would have been
a close election, and was a close election until Snr. McCain picking Gov. Palin.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
Mr. Snake nails another one...
In the end, McCain’s big blunder was the Palin pick— she was a pick that appealed to the base in a cycle where he needed to appeal to the center.
The only issue that McCain was getting traction on was that of “experience” — which he flushed.
FREE SERGIO -- Trade Him or Cut Him NOW!!!
I think Obama (if he wins)
will be a much more conservative president than people expect. The definition of “Conservatism” has been heavily skewed by the last 8 years (which were headlined by actions of a so-called “conservative” regime which appeared to be anything but).
A conservative blogger (Andrew Sullivan) on the Colbert Report last night said it well, “I want to bring calm, prudence, and reason back to the American government.” Obama is, temperamentally, a very conservative person.
For example, in regard to the Russia-Georgia conflict, Republicans attacked Obama for not “picking a side” decisively. Obama was careful to reserve snap judgment of the situation. In retrospect, it appears that Georgia was also guilty of violating the Geneva convention by targeting areas housing Russian civilians with their tanks
Just sayin’, prudence and patience are virtues, but not to excess.
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
conservative
conservative in method, but leading to liberal decisions does not make one conservative, at least not in the sense of the word as we think of it.
Now, if he uses conservative decision-making methods to arrive at moderate/centrist decisions, then I can live with that.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I don't have faith,
that he will use conservative decision making methods when naming Supreme Court Justices.
Let's just thank God
that McCain isn’t choosing 2, potentially 3 supreme court justices. Whew.
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
Ah...the supreme ct justices always end up more liberal
than the conservatives want…beacuse the constitution is a fairly liberal document which isn’t designed to limit peoples freedoms the way the ultra conservatives would like it too
that's funny
Conservatives would argue that the constitution provides MORE individual freedoms than the court and congress have historically chosen to grant us all, not less. They would further argue that it is liberal laws and rulings that have limited our freedoms, not conservative ones.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I notice you make no effort to argue those points though.
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
what points?
he said conservatives want to limit people’s freedoms. I pointed out that conservatives will say exactly the opposite on this issue.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Real Conservatives Would
That is why I am a registered R. But once Pres. Bush and the Rep. Congress blatantly stepped into that Terri Schiavo thing, I realized that my party had abandoned its principals. I am voting for Snr. Obama because I think that he is the better choice, and from what I have seen from the last 16 years, the Conservative party is Dead, it is all Republicans now.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
The paleoconservative wing of the Republican Party ...
began its steady decline after Barry Goldwater’s big loss in the ‘64 U.S. presidential election. At this moment in time, Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX) is the last remaining member of that idealogy — although he’s technically more of a paleolibertarian — yet, that political philosophy may someday make a comeback.
Yet, one current problem with paleoconservatism is that Pat Buchanan — as well as the far-right Constitution Party, albeit to a lesser extent — has tarnished the movement with ultraconservative, reactionary stances on social issues. I’m pretty sure that the likes of Goldwater, Hugo Black, Robert A. Taft, and other men of that ilk would’ve detested Buchanan’s desire to fringe on people’s civil liberties via this asinine culture war.
agreed with both of you
I would love a party that focused on good old-fashioned fiscal conservatism combined with social libertarianism.
Sadly, it either doesn’t exist or isn’t viable.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
totally agreed
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
method maybe, but not results
Will get justices at the far left extreme, like Breyer and Ginsburg. And they’ll pass the senate with 85-90 votes because they will be qualified. You won’t see 60-40 votes and the wholesale attacks on good qualified nominees put forth by Obama that we saw in regards to Alito and Roberts.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
McCain is the strongest Republican candidate since Regan
I think Obama would be beating anyone else (Romney, Huckabee, etc.) by simply enormous margins. Republicans gave Democrats their very best shot, but IMHO Obama is a once-in-a-generation kind of super candidate. That doesn’t mean I agree with all his policies, but I think as far as running a compaign and building a movement, he is the LBJ of politics. I initially supported Edwards this year, and I liked his fiery liberal rhetoric better than Obama’s message of hope and bipartisanship, but I am excited about Obama because I think he has the potential to really build the progessive movement for decades.
agreed sort of
McCain was the strongest general election candidate this time around, but I don’t think he’s historically a strong candidate. I personally like his anti-pork stance and adherence to principles, and his willingness and demonstrated history of crossing party lines.
I don’t agree Obama is a super candidate historically, at least not in the sense of issues and policy message and his record. He is certainly the first (at least of the modern era) “Celebrity” president, which is a big part of his appeal in my opinion. People love the guy even though they can’t name one thing he stands for. He’s a STAR! That, combined with the anti-republican, anti-Bush tidal wave, is what will get him into office, not any kind of impressive message or resume.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
But why is he a celebrity?
Is it because the media made him one? Or is it because he is intelligent, well-spoken, driven, well-reasoned, and prudent?
These people who are voting for Obama because they “love the guy even though they can’t name one thing he stands for” are also voting against McCain because they hate the guy even though they can’t name one thing he stands for. But truly, in recent politics, hasn’t it mostly been about image and character?
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
yep
which is part of the problem.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
let me amend
Voting for someon’s perceived character is not a problem. If you think a candidate has the right character that he/she will use to drive their decision-making processs, I fully support that.
Voting for image is silly, but all too frequent.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I don't really want to step into this fray
But I think another thing that is appealing about his is his uncanny ability to avoid pettiness and when he has too, he confront is head on. He had a great speech about racism in America and he refused to touch the Palin’s baby’s baby momma thing.
This space for rent.
great point
I agree. The first 2/3 of his racism speech were pure brilliance and brought tears to my eyes. He had a homerun on his hands. Had he stopped there, it would have been one of the all-time greats, and would truly have been above the partisan fray. Unfortunately, he decided to spend the last 1/3 trotting out the same tired old liberal prescriptions, which turned a brilliant piece of oratoray that everyone could identify with and turned it into a stump speech.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I love racism
The first thing I had to do on my wedding day was call my sister and say she could not use the n-word during my wedding, because she used it at our rehearsal dinner. Racism is real, it made for some miraculous stories of of people overcoming and rising up over extreme adversity. I think it is time for people to accept racism and move on. Racism sucks butt, it is ignorant and intolerant, and it sometimes it is funny. It all depends on the messenger.
Without racism, we would not have Martin Luther King, Jr., Nelson Mandela, Jesse Owens, or Jackie Robinson. It may be a tragic legacy, but it is still a legacy worthy of appreciation.
I’m pretty sure I dug a really deep hole here. I’m just trying to say, that we don’t need any more racism, but it’s time to forgive the racism from our past.
I’m positive I went way off topic here.
This space for rent.
by tominhawaii on Nov 4, 2008 12:44 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think we all need to forgive Shavlik Randolph and just move on.
He won the election fair and square and there’s nothing we can do about it now.
If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley
Just cuz I think the black's got rights, don't mean I think the gay's got 'em.
Ha, how cool would it be if I really felt that way? I love my gay friends too.
Prejudiced hurts everyone.
This space for rent.
What is the Progressive Movement?
In what areas do you see our need for progress? I’m not coming with an angle, I’m really curious in the opinion of a Obama supporter what your expectations are for change.
OK I'll take a shot
Here’s some things I’d like to see changed. Keep in mind I’m not necessarily a typical Obama supporter. I’m way further to the left than most of the party.
- Tax structure and business regulations changed to create greater balance of wealth. I’d rather have more balance than more total wealth.
- Decent health care, housing, and food guaranteed to all citizens without exception.
- Foreign policy that sees war as an extreme last option, doesn’t vilify other countries, and doesn’t try to take advantage of other countries for our gain.
- Environmentalism for the benefit of current and future people, because climate change and other things are really significant threats that can’t be ignored or marginalized.
- Greater respect for freedom of speech and privacy, less emphasis on giving up rights in the interest of security.
thanks!
1) Please clarify. What specific changes would you see inacted?
2) How does this work exactly? Who defines “decent”? How is it “guaranteed”? Who pays for it?
3) we can agree on this. I think the US has historical done this almost without exception.
4) Agreed, when practical
5) I’m not aware of any serious threats to freedom of speech and privacy, other than the fairness doctrine and card check laws that is. Can you elaborate on what you are referring to?
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I don't have all the specifics or the answers
That’s why I’m not running or office.
Regarding privacy, I’m mostly talking about all the anti-terrorist BS, with people being spied on and searched unnecessarily.
Regarding “who pays for it,” we do through taxes. I believe there will still be plenty of potential tax revenue available with these changes.
Well, number 1 sounds like classic redistribtiion of wealth to me. Take one person’s hard earned money and give it to someone else. No to that 1000 times over. Where’s the incentive for hard work and self-improvement in a system like that? If you mean something else, by all means correct me.
I’m not willing to pay the enormous tax increases that I would have to pay in order to clothe and feed people who are unwilling to do it themselves. Help for those unable to do so is a different matter of course, the problem is often in distinguishing the difference. I agree we could easily afford to help those unable to do so, but we are overburdened by the unwilling unforatunately. And more free stuff is just going to increase the amount of those unwilling to do for themselves.
None of your proposals give any indications of where all this potential tax revenue is going to come from to pay for these changes. Just how high would you want to see the tax rates go?
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
"redistributing the wealth"
That is precisely what the Republicans (as well as the Clinton administration, to a lesser extent) have been doing for the past 30 years. They have been redistributing wealth from the bottom to the top. Democrats just want to go back to the way it was in the 1990s.
The Republicans started the current class war and they have been winning big time.
We cannot put up with this flagrant lack of accountability anymore.
really?
I must be dense, because I am not aware of any policy or tax code that takes money out of the hand of the poor or lower middle class and gives it to the rich. In fact, the bottom 20% or so of earners actually pay less than 0 in federal taxes.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
It's more of a passive role
If you allow the people with money to exploit those without it (see: antitrust laws, food and drug act, 1900 through the depression) money will get transfered away from the lower classes to the wealthy. Deregulation, and general facilitation of the wealthy makes the government implicitly responsible for the decline in real wealth of the middle class.
A large middle class (who have wealth, not just credit) are need to support the economy. If the wealth keeps transferring to those who already have it, the economy will suffer greatly and we could go into another large depression. The middle class drives consumerism, not the rich. There aren’t enough wealthy people to support our economy.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
I must be dense, because I am not aware of any policy or tax code that takes money out of the hand of the poor or lower middle class and gives it to the rich.
It’s called “capitalism.” That’s what the whole system is set up for. Now I’m not saying we should scrap it, but it has to be balanced out and kept in control.
that's quite a stretch!
again, point to me where money is being forcibly withheld or removed from poor people and given to rich people. It just isn’t happening. To say our capitalistic system is engagin in this kind of wealth redistribution is just downright dishonest.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Pretty simple
Rich people own businesses. Businesses operate by making profits at the expense of their customers and employees.
two things
First, that is a pretty pessimistic view of the employer/employee/customer relationship, and while you are entitled to that opinion, I think it is one not shared by the majority of Americans.
Second, the “wealth” in question never belonged to the employee, and thus cannot by definition be taken from them. There is no redistribution here. You may not like the system, but calling it redistribution is just factually dishonest. Removing money by the force of law from the paycheck of person A and sending it to person B is redistribution.
The basic premise of your statement can be deconstructed on so many levels, but that is a topic for another day, as I frankly don’t have the energy right now.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
On a macroscopic level
Not since roughly 1910 has the wealth in this nation been so skewed to the ultra wealthy. The early 1970s saw the greatest parity (to put it generously) between the top 1% and the bottom 20. Since then, the top 1 have held an ever increasing share of wealth in this nation. This is indisputable. Clearly, the bottom fifth once had wealth that it no longer does.
I don’t know what the ideal distribution of wealth would be, but there is a clear problem with so few people having so much money. One of the causes of the Great Depression (among many) was that many factory workers, for example, couldn’t afford to buy the products that they helped make. There was a tremendous surplus of goods and not enough buyers. IMO, the only reason we haven’t gotten to that point today is the wide availability of credit. Perhaps, was is more appropriate now.
If you don’t like wealth redistribution to be used as an active verb in the sense paulo means, that’s fine. It really is more of a passive by-product of unrestricted capitalism rather than a conscious effort of those with money to ‘steal’ from those without it. However, that doesn’t mean that just because it happens naturally that it should be preferred or even acceptable.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
Your premise is . . .
that there is a finite amount of wealth
in this country. It’s as if you imagine that
all wealth in this country is pie and the
wealthy have a large share of the pie.
In a capitalist society, all people have
the ability to invent, produce or work to
create wealth, not “get a piece” of the pie.
Innovation, niche, hard work are all pieces
of success.
It's GO time !
at any one time the wealth is finite
overall wealth has been growing steadily for generations. I don’t see how that address the point I made about the lopsided distribution of wealth.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
And overall growth of the pie at equal rates
only further increases the income disparity.
"For the past two seasons it's been like, 'They're young, they're going to need some time,"' Roy said. "It doesn't feel like that this season."
I know a lot of people who own their businesses...
… most of which I would not classify as rich.
hakkaa päälle !
Paulo,
I think you can look at it this way, conservatives believe in freedom, liberals believe in equality. I don’t slight you if you choose equality, but know this, you can’t have both. When you play Robin Hood you destroy freedom and the American dream. if that’s what you want then you have the right guy.
Health care – +1 on Douglast’s response, if you think paying the health care for some overweight 2 pack a day loser is a good idea, go right ahead, good for you, just don’t put that on me. that’s nuts.
on foreign policy I think we agree, but then don’t. you think Iraq was a mistake. this baffles me. it’s ok to make me pay health care for some loser I don’t know but not ok for me to support this countries volunteer military when fighting to spread freedom throughout the world for those who can’t fight for themselves. you are internally confused in my opinion. How can you be a bleeding heart for some but cold hearted to others.
Climate change – McCain is all over this, no one can argue with that. Much to my disdain I might add. I think we need to prove our influence on climate change before putting coal workers out of work.
The only threat to freedom of speech that I am aware of is the democrats freedom doctrine, look it up.
I don't think we spread anything good in Iraq
Just a lot of death and suffering. I favor some international interventions for human rights, but I don’t believe that this wan an example of that.
I think the folks that live in Iraq would and have dissagreed with you.
I have 2 very close freinds that have been there from almost the beginning. I consider them very bright guys and according to them what you see on the news is not the reality of what is, or what has happened. These folks are enjoying liberties that they have not had for many years if ever, and they absolutly love our soldiers. Until we cut and run and then the terrorists will come back in and take over again.
Talk to an Iraqi.
A friend of mine is dating one. He previously served in the Iraqi Army and later, with US forces as an interpreter. His view was that the US needs to stay in Iraq until they kill all of the bad guys.
hakkaa päälle !
You're half right...
conservatives believe in freedom, liberals believe in equality
The Right believes in “peace through strength” which includes a strong central government.
They’re big on the “every man for himself” theory of economics.
“Freedom” doesn’t really even show up on the radar, unless you’re talking about “freedom to own guns,” which is actually a corollary of “peace through strength.”
FREE SERGIO -- Trade Him or Cut Him NOW!!!
and don't get me wrong pualo,
I’m the first point out the garbage from the right, it’s the old lesser of 2 evils in my opinion. I have a freind that is a self described socialists and we are very close. I just think he’s wrong.
The negative impact of unhealthy people far outweighs the cost of a tax increase to help them. Or put another way, more healthy people contributing to the economy outweighs the tax burden. And don’t cloud the point, it’s not just obese people who have heart attacks that would be getting health care. There are millions of people who don’t get medication or proper care who aren’t willfully eating or smoking themselves to death.
Fighting for freedom in other countries? Are you kidding me? What about Darfur, North Korea, Burma, Saudia Arabia, Zimbabwe, and Pakistan, just to name a few? Why aren’t we fighting for their freedom? We got into the war because we thought Iraq had WMDs. They didn’t. Freedom is just what we’re saying now. There are a lot of reasons to believe even WMDs weren’t the reason for invading Iraq, which includes a white paper by Paul Wolfowitz titled “One World Superpower” that suggested Iraq could produce a 180 billion dollars/year (oil) 18 months after invasion.
Okay, if you want to take the dissenting opinion on climate change, fine. Would you go so far as to say the climate ISN’T changing, human influenced or not? We still need to be mindful or a changing climate even if it’s not our fault. Furthermore, a lot of the proposal put forth to lessen the effects of climate change are just smart things to do in general. We don’t want to cripple our economy, but we don’t want to ignore what we’re doing to the planet either. Plus, investing in green solutions will provide a lot of jobs. Lots.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
I'll start at the bottom,
Of course the climate changes, it gets warmer it get’s cooler. are we affecting it, most likely. what I’m saying is can we do anything that will really make a difference, I don’t know and if you say you do then you know more then all the sceintists combined. I’m not willing to put one person out of work until we can definetively say we will make a difference that matters.
fighting for freedom in other countries, no I’m not kidding. North korea, really, are you kidding? You are obviously a smart guy, so you know we can’t go into NK. I wish we could. that pyscho has death camps, just like the nazis, it makes me sick. WMD, pink bunnies, I personally don’t care what excuse we used, we liberated good people that deserve freedom. the fact is the intelligence was given to congress and the president and Powell advised the President to go in. That matters little to me, the freedom for those people is all that matters. to call that a mistake is sad to me.
On health care, your right, people need health care. There are many options that don’t include a welfare method.
North Korea wasn't a serious point
but it got your attention. Why Iraq vs. Darfur then? Many people are very suspicious of our motives. Then, there is 1000 years of history that we completely ignored. The crusades, European imperialism, and constant interference from the West has made most of the Middle East very distrustful of us, or worse. Even if we had/have the best of intentions, it’s still a Western military and government telling them how to live.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
agree on Darfur,
but still a touchy situation. We are actually working there. We use Blackwater to train the resistance. We just don’t actively fight, but I wish we would.
I don’t want to tell anyone how to live just get in make it stable, give them a choice then get out, but still protect their choice when needed. I feel it’s a responsibility if you have the means, just as much as caring for your neighbor.
Because Iraq sits on the second largest
proven reserves of oil and is smack dab in the middle of the largest oil producing region in the world. A region that, with the exception of Israel, does not have a single functioning democratic government. One of the driving factors behind the strategy to invade was to help establish an Arab democracy. Iraq appeared – at least on the surface – to provide the best opportunity.
Yes, there was a lot that was ignored, but it is still arguable that Iraq is the best possibility for establishing a function democratic nation in the Middle East. The administration managed to make several major screwups along the way, but the situation is not hoipeless.
hakkaa päälle !
No WMD's !
Saddam gassed thousands of Kurds. They
found chemical weapons labs and the makings for
WMD’s. Do you doubt that chemical & biological
weapons were ever held by Saddam ? Go on
the web and google Gassed Kurds. I guess it’s
hard to argue with mass graves.
It’s hard to understand the “Blood 4 Oil” arguement
when we never got paid any oil. That certainly would
have helped foot the bill for liberating the country.
It's GO time !
I think you're about 15 years too late with that
I know Saddam committed genocide in his own country, but we didn’t act to stop that then, so why should that be used as justification now? Justice delayed is justice denied. It’s not an acceptable reason for wasting billions of dollars, thousands of American lives and ruining our international reputation. The reason for invading Iraq in 2003 was the threat of WMDs that Saddam would use against Israel and American interests right then, not 15 years before. Only after we found out that there were no WMDs (despite a lot of evidence beforehand that Saddam no longer had them anyway) did it become about liberating the people or Iraq. And if we’re such good guys, why aren’t we liberating Sudan, Burma or Zimbabwe?
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
Do you honestly think people would forgo hard work and self improvement just because they are being taxed? That’s very melodramatic. Sure, there would be slightly less incentive to earn that dollar on the margin, but that won’t cripple the economy or hurt a family’s standard of living.
The most important thing point I want to make about wealth redistribution is this: No one makes their money in a vacuum. Even the most clever inventor, for example, still needs average people (publicly educated, middle class people) to buy his product. Show me a person that didn’t use this nation’s roads, school system, hospitals, libraries, and fellow citizens (not necessarily exploited citizens either) to gain his wealth and I’ll show you a man who can keep all his money. Hard workers have used the benefits society has provided in addition to their own abilities to make their money. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask that they repay that what they have reaped.
Your 2nd paragraph is why people think conservatives don’t want to help the poor and working classes. Someone in this thread said that conservatives do want to help the less fortunate and that opinions to the contrary just didn’t understand fully (or something to that effect). This is the exact opinion that I would point to if I wanted to demonstrate the conservative attitude. The idea that the people benefiting from welfare programs, for example, are just plain unwilling to help themselves is the biggest slap in the face to anyone who wasn’t born with great opportunities or some kind of wealth in their family. It’s the myth of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. For every person that pulls themselves up from nothing, 100 people struggle and don’t accomplish enough to move upward. I think stories of people abusing the system get reported so often as to make many people think the majority of people getting assistance don’t actually deserve it. I would argue, from what I’ve seen, that those freeloaders only make up a small percentage of the people being helped.
I speak from personal experience. My father is disabled and can’t work. He’s a very intelligent, driven individual who just had something bad happen to him. An accident took away his ability to provide for himself. He is the exact type of person the system was designed for. And, IMHO, even if only 1 out of every 10 people truly needed the help the gov’t provides, that would be worth it. I’d rather help one person while enabling 9 other than let the 1 person suffer unnecessarily. I liken that position to maintaining that an individual is innocent until proven guilty. It’s better to let 10 criminals go than convict one innocent man. This is without getting into all sorts of structural, cultural and racial obstacles that many people have to deal with.
Lastly, I don’t think it would take much additional taxation to accomplish those goals. Personally, I would cut our gigantic military budget to start with. Following that, tax increases, as Obama says, on those making over 250,000 per year. I think if we can find the money to pay for a war in Iraq we can find money to pay for these things at home. I wouldn’t inact all of those points at once, nor would I raise taxes while we are still reeling from this bad loan fiasco.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
Magnum,
We are talking about extremes. That’s the problem. I believe folks in this country are very close in their beliefs. Just looking through different glasses. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in this country that does not think we need some form of welfare, or that we shouldn’t take care of the disabled. That’s not on the table, what’s on the table is paying health care for those that don’t work that can. What’s on the table is raising our business tax rate to the highest in the world and thereby exporting our jobs overseas. We will always have a progressive tax system, it’s the extremes we have to fight against, we are closer to socialism then many think.
No.
The Obama Health Care is provided by employers, so it is literally impossible for unemployed people to be collecting the Health care. The same is not true of Snr. McCain’s, he is going to give a $5000 tax credit to people to buy Health Insurance with.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
the unfettered capatilism
surrounding the collapse of the credit markets and banks would disagree with that assertion.
I’m paraphrasing, but….
“When I give the poor food people call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food people call me a socialist”
The quote might actually be communist at the end, but the point still stands. I’d rather help people and have some freeloaders than not help anyone and have them suffer.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
no, I think some people will forgo hard work when giving housing, food, etc, for free. why work for it?
Hard workers have used the benefits society has provided in addition to their own abilities to make their money. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask that they repay that what they have reaped.
They do. The more they make, the more they pay in taxes. But turning around and mailing some of this money to people who are unwilling to work for themselves (not I said unwilling, not unable) is a slap in the face to that guy who worked his butt off.
I’m part of the miss I guess. I grew up in a single-parent home with a mom who made well under the poverty level. I went to school, worked hard, and pulled myself up by my bootstraps. I’ve seen far more that 1 out of 100 other people do the same thing.
I think you grossly underestimate the cost of guaranteeing “decent housing, food, and healthcare” to all.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
We disagree fundamentally about the numbers
of how many people are unwilling to work and how many are able to improve their lot in life. I ask the following in all seriousness: Are you white douglast? That’s a huge advantage. Where did you grow up? I think there are lots of advantages you and I share that allowed us to pull ourselves up. (My father raised me and my brother alone and disable, I went to a great school and just graduated) It sounds like your family valued education. Many families just stick to blue collar work because they don’t know anything else. I have great respect for you. But there are a lot of people who weren’t able to do what you were able to do.
I could very well be underestimating the cost of guaranteeing housing, food and healthcare to all, but man, maybe it’s just me, but that sounds like a great thing for this great nation to accomplish.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
I'll tell you what
If the government came to me and said “hey, here’s a house and some food and some healthcare”, of course I’m not going to work as hard. It’s basic human nature. And that’s where the whole thing falls apart. In order to support all that, you have to have people working hard, making more money, and paying into the tax system so that the government can pay for my house and food. The more people who get free stuff, the more of them there will be who stop working as hard, the less money there is to pay for the free stuff. The whole thing cannot help but collapse.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
okay
Have you worked a minimum wage job? The government (by state as well) guarantees you a minimum amount of money for your work. Does that mean you do no more work or go for a better job? No one is saying give everyone a mansion, steak and a healthcare plan that includes plastic surgery. We want to make sure people are going without these basic things.
It’s also human nature to want more and more. I doubt many people would be satisfied with the minimum except those people who didn’t even have that to begin with. And the benefits would only increase in subsequent generations. It’s a lot easier to excel in life if you start out with the resources to do so.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
My grandfather...
… was an immigrant coal miner. Can’t get much more blue collar than that.
His sons worked their way through college, one becoming head of the chemistry dept of a university and the other ending up founding his own engineering firm.
Among his grandsons is a former US Attorney and a VP of a major utility company.
Among his great grand sons and daughters is an intern to a US Senator and graduate of the USMA. The majority of grand children and great grand children have gone (or are going) to college, many with advanced degrees.
Sure, there was some degree of luck and good fortune. But mostly it’s been a matter of effort. Not the effort of the government, but of the individual.
hakkaa päälle !
It might be a bit much to ask for comprehenisve explanations in this medium
The questions you ask regarding points 1 and 2 are important.
Allow me to go out of order for the rest.
4) It would be very damaging to the economy to simply apply every green proposal to our industries, homes, energy etc, but practical is a bad qualification. Practical means different things to different people. Practical would likely be what the status quo thought was practical and the point that many environmentalists are making is that those types of solutions aren’t going to do enough.
5) Personal freedoms are restricted if people want safety from the threat (perceived or real) of terrorism. Generally speaking, freedom and security are inversely related. I don’t think that point can be argued. “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety” -Ben Franklin
3) Please correct my interpretation of what you mean if I’m wrong…….
Are you saying the United States has used war as a last resort in almost every case since its inception? If this is your point, how are incursions into Chile, Nicaragua, Russia and plenty more nations (I can only think of so many off the top of my head) justified? What about selling arms to Afghanistan during the 70’s when the USSR invaded them? The United States has used military force dozens of times across the world and I don’t think you could call any of those circumstances last resort.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
4) clearly I wasn’t trying to define practical here. I think we should all consider their environment in everything we do, but we can’t destroy ourselves trying to achieve the holy grail of greenness
5) I agree. I just think the issues that were raised are so small in their actual infringement so that the benefit far outweighs the very slight encroachment.
3) I was speaking more in terms of the “doesn’t vilify other countries, and doesn’t try to take advantage of other countries for our gain.” part of the point. I believe the United States has by far been the most magnanimous, generous, and forgiving nation towards it’s foreign friends and enemies in the history of the world. It’s really not even debatable. Sure, we’ve made mistakes, but the good we’ve done far outweighs those mistakes.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Okay
I was worried about 3, thanks for clarifying. I’d like to see the two sides of the good we’ve done in the world vs. the harm we’ve caused and which outweighs the other. I suppose it depends on who you ask and where the live in the world.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
Greater respect for freedom of speech and privacy?
To me, you can’t support freedom of speech and the Fairness Doctrine. Requiring private companies to present an opposing view for every issue is crazy. Oboma does not support the fairness doctrine which is much to his credit, but other democrates like John Kerry, Dennis Kucinich, and Diane Feinsteinare are salivating at the chance to try and get it pushed through a democrate controled government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine
If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley
well,
it’s coming with Obama. there is no attack on the freedom of speech with McCain, there is a clear one with Obama. You said you were concerned with respect of freedom of speech. the fairness doctrine would be the biggest attack on freedom of speech in 50+ years imo.
It's a popular policy among liberals in the democrate party.
I’m not sure freedom of speech goes along with progressive thought. It should, and that’s not to say that conservatives have done a better job of protecting freedom of speech. In Canada, a utopia of progressive ideas, they have instituted the Canadian Human Rights Commission to make sure no one engages in “hate speech”. It’s pretty much the worst idea anyone has ever had.
If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley
I can only hope
That which ever man is elected President will be proven right in the choices that he makes. These two men are on the opposite sides of many arguements, either could be right, and either could be wrong, lets just hope that whoever wins, ends up being the one that was right.
I only vote in polls
that list all the candidates…not just the “chosen” two from the Republicrats and Demorepublicans. “Someone else” is almost an insult to the various other 3rd party candidates. Just because the mass media ignores them doesn’t mean everybody has to. Sorry to rant…voted for the Libertarian candidates BTW.
Peace!
by ColoradoBlazerFan on Nov 4, 2008 11:54 AM PST reply actions
Ha, Libertarians!
That’s almost as bad as not voting. I don’t vote, and I still think Libertarians are funny. Who forms their political beliefs based on libraries?
“Oh look at me, I’m a Libertarian and I’m going to fix the budget using the Dewey Decimal system.”
This space for rent.
I'm sure hoping that was sarcasm, otherwise...
thank you for not voting…;-)
signed,
The crazy Libertarian
by ColoradoBlazerFan on Nov 4, 2008 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
How many steps above anarchy is the libertarian position?
Only joking. I respect libertarians, I understand that position intellectually even though I don’t agree with it.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
that's a legitimate question actually
Libertarians range from extreme (anarcho-capitalists) to the pragmatic (paleo-conservatives). Unfortunately, the extremists get the attention. However, all Libertarians agree on one thing, as government and the war-state grows, liberty shrinks.
Peace
by ColoradoBlazerFan on Nov 4, 2008 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
In 2004, I voted for Libertarian Party presidential nominee Michael Badnarik.
While Badnarik’s minarchist platform definitely didn’t fit in with mainstream America, it was a perfect balance of fiscal responsibility, civil libertarianism, and non-interventionist foreign policy in my book.
Yet, former Republican Congressman Bob Barr of Georgia — who’s an opportunistic, self-serving sleazebag — wouldn’t’ve gotten my vote in a million years. Barr’s underhanded takeover of the Libertarian Party this year screwed anarcho-capitalist Mary Ruwart, who deserved a chance at heading the national ticket due to her principled beliefs and relentless devotion to the cause.
Agreed
The Libertarian party is looking more inept than ever…if that’s possible. I joined the Libertarians this year and i’ve realized that they couldn’t organize much of anything, let alone an election. I guess I just need to stay lost in the wilderness again.
Badnarik’s constitutional classes are awesome.
by ColoradoBlazerFan on Nov 5, 2008 7:04 AM PST up reply actions
In 2004, Michael Badnarik was a great moderate for the Libertarian Party.
It’s kind of too bad that another minarchist, George Phillies, couldn’t secure the Libertarian Party’s nomination in 2008. Phillies, though, had neither ex-Republican Bob Barr’s name recognition or the standing of anarcho-capitalist Mary Ruwart. Yet, after the beat down suffered by Barr this election cycle, I expect that the Libertarian Party will quickly return to its roots.
our entire system ignores the 3rd party candidates
It’s a tricky thing. Massive pluralities can be very dangerous. I don’t think it would be good to have a leader only win 30% of the popular vote and be elected. On the other hand, having the same 2 candidates over and over isn’t beneficial either.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
I wish it were though
and I wish 65 was something along those lines. Either IRV or fusion voting would both be, at least in my opinion, good things for Oregon. Measure 65 doesn’t do either, and would just effectively get rid of primaries: because the parties wouldn’t want to risk running against each other they would just nominate whomever they think is going to do the best, and leave voters out of the first step.
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
This has been enjoyable, but I need to head out of the office and down to Portland.
I get to spend the rest of the week at home – and hopefully catch a couple of Blazer games on TV.
Remember to vote. And if you are a Democrat, remember to vote often. (Just don’t use Mickey. I think they are on to that one.)
hakkaa päälle !
Woo Hoo
I called in last night to Canzanos Show on 95.5 The Game. Shared my opinion on voting in this election, and what I think about players voting/not voting etc.
It was interesting to actually have him say I made a good point! Didn’t expect that… anyway my opinion shall remain private on here since I’m known by a select few. lol
You think I know the first thing about how hard your life has been, how you feel, who you are, because I read Oliver Twist? Does that encapsulate you? Personally... I don't give a $hit about all that, because you know what, I can't learn anything from you, I can't read in some fukin' book. Unless you want to talk about you, who you are. Then I'm fascinated. I'm in. But you don't want to do that do you sport? You're terrified of what you might say. Your move, chief.
This is my more "user friendly" sig -quote from Good Will Hunting (by mork) lol
sadly
as much as I’m enjoying this (and not getting any work done), I’m off to be in the car for the next few hours. I’ll check in later tonight to see how things are going here – we may have results then!
No matter who wins, remember to keep some perspective. None of our lives are likely to be substantially altered by either man being in office. Sure, there may be some things done that aren’t too our liking, but a complete makeover of our system is not in order. Things will not be as dire as we like to make them out to be!
Oh, and we can all be back here on the same “team” tomorrow when our beloved Blazers take the court.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
most definitely
Jaws were hitting the floor as Greg repeatedly attempted to tear the rim off the backboard...
No matter who you would like to see in the administration, please vote, and think about your vote.
You might not change your fate or the fate of this country with a ballot pull (though this one has pretty historic dimensions). But at least you take part in an election process, which is a privilege a lot of people in many countries on this planet still don’t have.

by Norsktroll on Nov 4, 2008 3:17 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
....................... He posts in an OT politics thread!
FREE SERGIO -- Trade Him or Cut Him NOW!!!
Congratulations Obama!
While I did not vote for him, he is now my President. I am pulling for him to succeed.
Congrats Obama
Leads not into Recession and Deliver us (away) from the Axis of Evil.
This is history folks. Am I the only one who found themself sporting some goosebumps as the news broke?
Definately Proud to be going down this path, I just hope we can all come together and step forward into the future as one.
You think I know the first thing about how hard your life has been, how you feel, who you are, because I read Oliver Twist? Does that encapsulate you? Personally... I don't give a $hit about all that, because you know what, I can't learn anything from you, I can't read in some fukin' book. Unless you want to talk about you, who you are. Then I'm fascinated. I'm in. But you don't want to do that do you sport? You're terrified of what you might say. Your move, chief.
This is my more "user friendly" sig -quote from Good Will Hunting (by mork) lol
Congratulations to Mr. Obama
Mr. Obama is now my president elect. I will give him my support, and a fair chance to earn my further respect and admiration over the coming years and months. He has been given an enormous opportunity here, and his acceptance speech was inspiring.
The ball is now squarely in his court. Given the mandate he was elected on, and the ability he will have to choose whichever congressional coalitions he needs to, he has the opportunity, I believe, to truly accomplish the post-partisan, “hope and change” ideals that he has been espousing all along. He has the personality to do it, and plenty of willing partners on both sides of the aisle, McCain included.
The other option will be the one Bush took after winning his own mandate for change in 2000: Obama can choose to join with the more radical wing of his party, and it’s leadership, and attempt to introduce policies and legislation that are far out of touch with the majority of Americans. That way lies more of the same—bitter partisanship and ugly devisiveness, and at the end of the day all the rhetoric about hope and change will be proven to have been just that.
I firmly hope he chooses the former, and I will cast him my full support (though surely not on every issue) if he does.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Good comment
“Mr. Obama is now my president elect. I will give him my support, and a fair chance to earn my further respect and admiration over the coming years and months. He has been given an enormous opportunity here, and his acceptance speech was inspiring.”
Let us hope Limbaugh and O’Reilly and the rest of the right wing media feel the same way.
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
doubtful
but just as likely as the left wing media ever giving Bush a fair shake either.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
I think the media has been plenty fair to Bush
(Olbermann excluded obviously)
I think Bush deserves every bit of the criticism he gets from the mainstream media.
Boomshakalaka
This was right on
Since the people on this site trend liberal, the conservatives may be more hostile to political discussion here.
Yeah…when people talk about conservatives on BE it’s usually with a sneer…not a very welcoming or tolerant viewpoint, despite the typical rhetoric. Many BEdger’s signatures say derogatory things about Christians and conservatives…it would be nice if Dave just banned all political speech on here from now until forever. There are plenty of other outlets without letting this divide us Blazer fans.
my gut says political talk will decrease by at least 90 percent within 7 days.
my gut also says blazers talk will increase by at least 90 percent within 14 days (once greg’s back).
i like those numbers…
honor terry porter
by Ben Golliver on Nov 4, 2008 11:56 PM PST up reply actions
For what it's worth
I tend to think of myself as being more conservative. I wish people simply worked harder to make their lives better. I’m not for Big Government.
however. I think tonight is about America. And what direction we as a country ‘need’ to go. I hope tonight brings us together.
Way to go Barack!
You think I know the first thing about how hard your life has been, how you feel, who you are, because I read Oliver Twist? Does that encapsulate you? Personally... I don't give a $hit about all that, because you know what, I can't learn anything from you, I can't read in some fukin' book. Unless you want to talk about you, who you are. Then I'm fascinated. I'm in. But you don't want to do that do you sport? You're terrified of what you might say. Your move, chief.
This is my more "user friendly" sig -quote from Good Will Hunting (by mork) lol
FUN FACTOID
This might have gotten lost in all of the election hoopla, but not only is Obama a black president-elect, he is actually the FIRST president-elect to choose to be black in our nation’s history! The news surprised me too, but I looked it up on Wikipedia and it seems like it might be true. Where is our media on this great story?!?
Haven’t seen it said here, but I felt like it was an obvious-too-E-Z-comparison: Obama is the KP of presidential candidates. Both had barely any “real” experience before being hired for the real deal, both called naive by colleagues with more experience, hired at a time when the majority of the “fans” (or "citizens") feel like a drastic change needs to happen and are willing to go with a bold, new, fresh, charismatic young man who focuses on nice feel good words like HOPE, CHANGE (ala KP’s CULTURE) even though that charismatic, intelligent young man has no real TANGIBLE-and-TRADITIONAL presidential/GMidential experience.
Both were able to quickly gain experience within the exclusive inner circles of power (Jr. Senator, Asst. GM) to learn the inner-goings-on without seemingly getting stuck in those set ways, and quickly rose to the top of their field.
The time in the minor leagues and the success they found there helped them later on as well.
We’ll see how the Obama era goes, but like I said before the election and will always say, intelligence and common sense and the ability to be a clear, fair thinker is more important than happening to be near or in that field for a long time. Or, to be born into it. KP and Obama got where they got through charm, gumption, good looks, and perfect timing outside of their control.
Both inherited big problems: The Iraq War/Jail Blazers, Economic Crisis/Broken Economic Model and Bankrupt Rose Garden, both share Kansas roots and most Blazer/Obama fans think KP/Obama can walk on water.
They inspire intense devotion, for what they promise and represent. KP came through on that promise, and I hope Obama follows suit like the rest of their parallels did (yeah yeah, KP ain’t win nuthin’ yet… but just wait).
If I had a NBA comparison for McCain, I think perhaps Donnie Walsh is a good example. A very well respected GM, someone you’d be totally fine to be your GM, but not going to inspire the fanbase (except the most downtrodden, perhaps) or to be the one who revolutionizes your team and makes them great in new un-seen ways. It would be a team that could very well be successful, but a team you’ve seen before.
Hiring the young, brash KP over another re-tread like Nash or Patterson can seem like a risky move, but the payoff is high. John Kerry is a good example of a re-tread, placeholder candidate. It’s like hiring Doug Collins to run your franchise— yeah, he’s been around, but no one is salivating at the thought of it.
Normally I dislike treating politics as sports fandom (such as, hating all Repubs or Demos like you hate the Laker or Yankee players just because of their affiliation with those franchises), but I can’t help but see a very KP-esque rise to prominence in this Obama fellow.
Obviously, nothing matters as much as the Blazers do, but some will be watching the Obama presidency to see how he handles these problems.
If he doesn’t do well, I suggest KP take over. That guy can do anything.
Mortimer
I knew one could always rely on you to elaborately bring things back to basketball
As for the Obama-KP comparison, that’s a nice one. Though I knew Obama was gonna be good in 2004 after his speech at the DNC, while at this time I didn’t even know KP. Go Blazers – Yes we can!
I always told my fiancee this
And it was more a lucky guess with Obama (a “guess” everyone had back then) and was just a matter of time with KP, but I fell in love with KP during his chats with Casey Holdahl on Oregonlive and his open communication (and seemingly honest communication) with fans. Other Blazer-friends who loved the Blazers as much as me but didn’t listen to those podcasts didn’t get why I felt so strongly that KP was awesome and thought I was just going along with the popular opinion.
KP basically outlined and explained how he was going to change the team back when he was assistant GM, and did exactly what he said he would.
After that speech in 2004 that Obama had, after not knowing who the hell he was, I told my fiancee that he was going to be president someday. As a skeptical black lady, she didn’t think Obama was gonna win until it was actually called for him, and even now she’s going to bed expecting it to be taken away by morning, let alone imagine this new young dude in 2004 would be president 4 very short years later. She silly!
I didn’t really know Obama would be able to be president this early, but after watching that speech and how he exploded on the scene I just hoped he didn’t have a spare kid somewhere, or a dead hooker in a trunk somewhere.
I felt the same reaction to when KP became well known by Blazer fans as the interim coach— man, this guy is gonna be sumthin! It’s more of a gut reaction, because what can a guy really prove in an interview or speech? Some people just shine though, brutha’.
When I’ve read people dismissing Obama as just relying on empty words and that he hasn’t done anything special ever, it reminds me of Blog-a-Bullers mocking the love KP gets.
The Blazers can answer any of life’s mysteries.
Mortimer
Can't wait for him to get to work :)
CNN breaking news: “In a surprise deal, Barack Obama today traded the rights to Iraq to a pan-Arabian consortium for immediate cap relief to boost the ailing US economy and re-align resources. This is the second major move in his rookie year after already trading North Dakota to Canada for Quebec that had wanted out of the franchise for a long time. His legal counsel Tom Penn is quoted as saying ’We have a lot of experience dealing with French influences, and think it will feel right at home here. And after I discovered this little-known clause in the constitution that allows for such a deal we just did it since we still have South Dakota on the bench”. Obama stated again that North Dakota was a model state during it’s time in the union, and wished it all the best with its new team. These new developments come just a few weeks after his historical “Dunk poverty in the face” State of the Union address focusing on domestic policies had members of congress give standing ovations for three hours."
I feel sorry for McCain
Everything he has done up to now means nothing and now he’s just a failure. He’s kind of the Darius Miles of politics.
This space for rent, text me for information.
The entire Republican party's leadership is a failure
It will be interesting to see if the Republicans return to their roots (Jefferson, Taft, Cleveland, Reagen) or wallow in Neo-Con hell for a while longer. I suspect a challenge from the right wing of the party to take control of the leadership and whatever remains of the party.
by ColoradoBlazerFan on Nov 5, 2008 7:09 AM PST up reply actions
Ha, you were fished in
McCain is still cool. He’s a war hero.
This space for rent, text me for information.
You are confused
I never supported the Republicrats or McBama…;-)
by ColoradoBlazerFan on Nov 5, 2008 9:51 AM PST up reply actions
What?
1. As any educated political scholar knows in the front of their mind, Jeffersonian Democracy was the epitome of ol’-school classical liberalism; it had flat-out nothing to do with any form of conservatism.
2. While relatively capitalistic on fiscal issues, Grover Cleveland was still a Bourbon Democrat in his era. Cleveland did his damnedest to fight corruption, though, so he deserves kudos there.
3. William Howard Taft was definitely a true paleoconservative who, without question, butted heads with the progressive Republicans like Teddy Roosevelt, Hiram Johnson, and Robert M. La Follette, Sr. I have more respect for the progressive wing of the Republican Party during that era, however.
4. Ronald Reagan was a fiscally imprudent, culturally illiberal imbecile who disgustingly ignited the neoconservative movement. A true paleoconservative, Barry Goldwater, constantly criticized Reagan throughout his presidency in the ’80s.
Semantics are confusing this
1. Jefferson was a libertarian in his philosophy…period. If you need proof, read some founding documents. Go look up the party Jefferson was part of ….yeah both Democrat and Republican are in the name. Libertarianism is the foundation of conservatism…..at least it used to be. Thereby, the Republicans, need to return to those philosophies. In 1976, Reagan said that libertarians are the heart and soul of the Republican party. Only some conservatives and libertarians want to go back to the philosophy of Jefferson. Imagine a Democrat espousing the idea of limited government and only having government do what people cannot possibly do on their own……that’s funny. I know Jefferson well. I’m such a Jefferson geek that I listen to podcasts of Jefferson’s letters on a regular basis. Jefferson is rolling over his grave at both Democrats and Republicans.
2. Cleveland was one the stronger presidents for limiting government…that’s why I use him as an example.
3. Taft…the last Republican who was truly was Republican. Love it or hate it…he had principles
4. Regean certainly changed once elected…very dissapointing. But still, waaaaayyyyyy more conservative that anyone since.
by ColoradoBlazerFan on Nov 5, 2008 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
Tell that to the American Railways Union...
Cleveland was one the stronger presidents for limiting government…
FREE SERGIO -- Trade Him or Cut Him NOW!!!
For every rule there is an exception
Even my hero Jefferson did a dumb thing with the British trade embargo. Overall, in comparison to most other presidents (esp Lincoln, Johnson and FDR) Cleveland was quite a proponent of limited government.
by ColoradoBlazerFan on Nov 5, 2008 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Regarding Thomas Jefferson's political platform, I'm not arguing that point.
Classical liberalism, however, is the grandfather of contemporary libertarianism.
I’m also not debating about William Howard Taft, who was a true paleoconservative.
Ronald Reagan, by the way, is a sellout; it’s that plain and simple. No matter how you slice it and dice it, the Reagan Administration paved the road for 28 years of neoconservatism — with a sprinkle of the somewhat similar third way centrism added in it during the Clinton years — which’ll hopefully be eradicated in the coming years. Yet, while I realize that true isolationism isn’t in the cards, a combination of increased non-interventionism throughout the world and enhanced economic protectionism — as well as some semblance of fiscal prudency, although that one might be tough to expect under Barack Obama

by 