Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Jerry Sandusky's Wife Tries To Run A Reporter Over

Greg's Contribution and Refuting Plus-Minus

<!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> Normal 0 </xml><![endif]-->

Over the past couple weeks we've seen people use the plus minus stat to basically say that the blazers play worse when Greg is on the floor as opposed to Joel.  Usually they then go on to say something along the lines of "this is entirely Greg's fault" or in some way imply that Greg is a bad team player or somesuch.

First off as a disclaimer let me say that I am a pro-numbers guy (engineering graduate).  And I do like my statistics.  Preferably cold hard absolute numbers.  Also, for most of this I won't be crunching numbers, so don't be afraid of seeing standard deviations and statistical methods.

Let's break down this stat to see what it means.  From nba.com:

"What is the AutoTrader.com +/- Stat?
The AutoTrader.com +/- stat shows the power of teamwork. It's a way of showing the best-engineered/best combination of players on the court. The +/- stat is a statistic that looks at the point differential when players are both in and out of the game, to see how the team performs with various combinations."

Okay, so (plus minus) = (total pts scored by good guys) - (total pts scored by bad guys)

This is a combined total offensive production of all 10 guys on the floor.  In concept this is a good idea for showing trends in the game for certain periods of time.  Where this breaks down is in applying this TEAM trend into an INDIVIDUALS performance.  Why? We need to dig deeper into its constituents. 

The points scored are a hard figure without dispute.  However there are a variety of factors that figure into whether or not points are scored.  (I know you're thinking "thank you, captain obvious!" but bear with me, this is a development of logic).

Factors for scoring on an individual possession (not all inclusive):

*Shooting Skill of offensive player taking the shot

*Whether or not the shot falls within the category of the shooters skillset.

*The origin of the offensive possession: half court set or turnover induced fast break?

*If it's a set: efficiency of the offensive scheme.

*Efficiency of defensive scheme.

*Defensive skills of player guarding the ball.

These are just a few and don't even begin to cover things like getting rebounds and turnovers to create additional possessions, pace of game, garbage time, etc.

As you can see, when totaled together for a team, this creates a lot of factors.  Any one individual is only responsible for a segment of these factors and certainly not enough to be able to contribute the entire plus minus score to his doing.  The plus minus is perfectly valid when applied TO THE WHOLE TEAM ONLY.  To apply 100% of this statistic to someone making 10% of the contribution to it is obviously a flawed method.

Furthermore, just for fun, I'm going to look at the biggest assumption that must be made for the plus minus stat to have any meaning.  Quite simply, for the plus minus stat to be meaningful when applied to Greg, the goal of the team must be to outscore the opponent for the duration of time that Greg is on the floor.  This is not always (indeed one might argue it could be never up to this point in the season) the case.  The overall goal is obviously to have the most points on the scoreboard before time expires.  However, KP, Nate, etc. said that the goal this year with Greg is to develop his skills.  If the team has a comfortable lead, WHY NOT give Greg a couple possessions to give him a chance to practice his post up skills?  He needs practice.  The team could run more effective offensive schemes when he's on the floor, yes.  However, they are giving him valuable time to hone his skills.

Plus minus conclusions:  Attaching significance to the plus minus stat when applying it to Greg (or any other individual) is logically unsound, mathematically faulty, and based on a usually false assumption.

Also, I don't plan on offering a complete mathematical refutation of the plus minus, but take a look at the following link and you can probably figure out why I don't attach much value to it, or many other composite stats such as wins produced, the defensive side of PER, etc.

Links:

Blazers plus minus from last year

Analysis of an adjusted plus minus

Greg's Stat Page

Joel's Stat Page

Efficiency Stats

More player stats

Greg's Contributions:  Now that I'm done being negative and ragging on the plus minus stat, I'd figure I'd share some numbers with you.  After all the skepticism about Greg's play I think it's a good idea to look at something helpful.  I've been keeping track of a lot of blazers statistics in a spreadsheet this year so I can chart both Greg's and the teams growth.  I was going to post this after our 24 game brutal stretch and then again at midseason.  I can't do a full defensive analysis until years end because I need teams season averages to calculate differences, but here we go.

I've just got 2 graphs for you today since this thread is ridiculously long.  Both of these are just hard numbers and not adjusted for time.  First we have points in the paint over 15 games, which should be entirely self-explanatory.

2dhfggi_medium

 

<!--[if gte vml 1]> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> </xml><![endif]-->

Notice that while Greg is out we are getting schooled.  Even with Greg back, opponents are getting far too many buckets close in, but with him back these have decreased slightly, while ours have risen somewhat, albeit erratically.  These data points are a little spread out so I wouldn't read much more into it than a general trend.

The 2nd chart is rebounds.

Nlv789_medium

<!--[if gte vml 1]> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> </xml><![endif]-->

Yes, these points are all over the place and a little hard to look at, but this graph is more informative.  Our team has been winning the battle of the boards for the most part.  Our bigs have also done a good job of out rebounding the bad guys starting center.  Notice that Joel is a beast.  There are only 2 games where he has really bad numbers on the boards, and one of those was thanks to Orlando's zebra unit.  Also notice that except for the last 2 games, Greg has also grabbed more boards than the opposing starting center.  We are also doing a good job holding down the opposed big guy, the only 2 spikes in that chart are called Dwight and Shaq.

In conclusion, I think it is a little premature to be criticizing Greg.  I also think there's a lot of over analyzing going on by media types looking for stories.  People really need to just let the guy play and enjoy it.  Other than the last 2 games, his initial numbers are probably better than expected, and I don't think there's any reason for worry or concern whatsoever.

What do you think of the numbers so far?  Are there any other numbers, charts, graphs, etc. you want to see?  And how awesome would a Greg Oden beard night be if they handed out fake beards on strings to the fans?

<!-- TOKEN_1227744365201_TOKEN -->

And why do these garbage lines of code keep showing up even after i delete them?

Comment 17 comments  |  11 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

This is very good

I’m impressed and I think you’re right-ish about this.

However, just visually, I think there’s a difference between pre-season, when there was a plan and it was working, and now, when I’m not sure I can see what the plan is.

The original plan: Get the ball in to Oden and let him score or pass out of the double-team. Aldridge was getting lots of opportunities close to the basket, and the outside shooters were complementing Oden, and sometimes driving and dishing effectively. The opponent was overmatched in the paint.

Now, long-range jumpers seem to be the main event. WHY? Oden is often starting the play in the high post, which means (1) if the ball comes to him he’s catching it on the run, (2) he’s not set where he can pass to the outside or the other low post, (3) he isn’t in position for offensive rebounds. It was working in the beginning but isn’t working now. So I don’t blame Greg as much as I blame the offensive scheme. He’s become our problem instead of the other team’s problem.

(In addition, teams have figured out one way to play him down low — go for the steal.)

by Kaboomm on Nov 26, 2008 4:54 PM PST reply actions  

Thanks for demonstrating

some of the issues. I’ve seen that statistics have reached enormous utility in medical science but I’m not sure that scientific power translates quite as well to basketball. It’s a window into the game and the pro scouts know how to use the statistics . My opinion on the Greg Oden issue is very simple; Joel is playing way above Greg and has the confidence of the team whereas Greg does not. He’s a rookie and should be on a first name basis with Mr. Bench.

by oregonslee on Nov 26, 2008 5:31 PM PST reply actions  

OK, I couldn't resist

but statistics are really problematic in medical science as well. They cannot account for the individual. I believe It is one of the main reasons we are seeing an explosion in alternative medicine. In economics, the erroneous assumptions of a statistical approach to human happiness is playing out before our eyes. If we humans are to survive the 21st. century, I believe one of many key things we are going to have to understand is the limitations of statistical analysis.

by Blazin' on Nov 26, 2008 6:27 PM PST up reply actions  

my hero

great post, finally a post where statistics are not being used like duct tape

Blazer's fan since '84, Currently exiled in San Antonio

↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A

by HurraKane212 on Nov 26, 2008 5:42 PM PST reply actions  

man i shoulda waited till after tonights game to put this together.

season high 55 boards while holding our opponent to a season low 28?
31 assists on 39 buckets?
holding miami to 2-19 from downtown while dropping 11-26?

yup, we’re awesome.

Skadoosh

by postup on Nov 26, 2008 9:26 PM PST reply actions  

+ / -

…is the basis of the game of basketball. After all, what matters is the score at the end of the game, and you can only win if you have a positive + / -. You have to look at how the + / – is affected when the player is out of the game and so Greg’s taken with Joel’s + / – is very indicative. That’s not to say he won’t improve; I have no doubt that he will. But he’s not at Prz-uh-billa’s level yet.

(I listened to Przy say his name on the radio since someone pointed it out here and yes, he does pronounce it Priz-uh-bill-uh…I’ve been saying Priz-bill-uh the whole time he’s been in Portland)

"I believe in [Joel]. I just love the way he plays." - Nate McMillan

by jamon51 on Nov 26, 2008 10:49 PM PST reply actions  

Sorry Joel

There is no vowel between the z and the b. You just can’t make up your own rules for the english language.

by snudger on Nov 26, 2008 11:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Sorry Snudger

There IS a vowel between the z and the b in Przybilla.

Oh, and if talking about rules, probably you should capitalize English. :)

But, since it isn’t an English name anyway, he can actually make up all the rules he wants, and not many of us around here would know if he’s cheating or not.

The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.

by jscot on Nov 27, 2008 2:15 AM PST up reply actions  

Do you think Miami could use a Don Nelson clinic on Nelly Ball? Life without a center must stink.

by oregonslee on Nov 26, 2008 10:50 PM PST reply actions  

One thing I wanted to point out

I don’t use the plus and minus to explain Oden. I’ve noticed Oden sucking and showed the plus and minus as one support of that.

Oden keeps better and I’m not worried. Specifically I was talking about the first Miami game and I think one other where he was detrimental. I think we could all agree VISUALLY that he was and the negative 22 to the plus 18 for pryz helps showcase and support that.

Different use of the stat and I feel one that’s important to point out. Plus and minus can’t prove anything but if you see it with your own eyes it’s ONE way to support what you’re already seeing.

Love the other stats you brought up. Nice work.

Greg Oden, where posters happen.

by ratbastird on Nov 26, 2008 11:02 PM PST reply actions  

Fair point about stats backing up what we see

But this was still a great post.

One of the things we see is that since Greg came back, Joel is better, and we are ruling the boards. The stats back that up.

It’s good right now, and it is just going to get better.

The most amazing thing about my amazing ego is I have amazingly little about which to be egotistical.
The pick and roll this year will emphasize "roll" followed by "dunk", followed by the wailings and lamentations of your women.

by jscot on Nov 27, 2008 2:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks postup

I hate +/- a lot, more than I hate the Lakers. Can you write another FanPost and explain why per 48 is so lame?

by tominhawaii on Nov 27, 2008 6:46 AM PST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The ultimate coverage and analysis of the Portland Trail Blazers.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
The Blazers Future Regarding Free Agent Signings
Small
Thunderous Manboobies
Img_0878_1__small
Why do we hate LaMarcus Aldridge?
Small
Oregonlive "journalists" 2 new posts...same old drivel
2474796688_7cdc78828f_o_small
Greg Oden Suffers Life-Ending Injury; Gets 3-Year Extension

Recent FanPosts

Small
WHAT TO DO WITH NIC BATUM BECAUSE WE WILL LOSE HIM IF NOT TRADED.
Small
Trade that helps us out now and the future
Small
How can the All-Star game be more fun and competitive?
Small
Earl Boykins!
Small
LaMarcus Aldridge about to become the 10th highest scorer in Blazers franchise  history
Small
New trade that gets us a new point and a three point shooter
Small
Portland getting.....
Small
The Sun Behind the Clouds: Blazers still on track.
Blazers_small
What are we missing?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Double rainbow of sadness:

1) JBay is getting shorter
2) We never got to see him with a mustache

I miss you tiny raptor man.

via The Basketball Jones http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/02/09/things-of-note-for-february-9-2012/#more-34561
Blazers Broadcasters Mike Barrett and Mike Rice re-enacted NBA referee Scott Foster's controversial goaltending call on Portland Trail Blazers forward LaMarcus Aldridge, who was defending Oklahoma City Thunder All-Star forward Kevin Durant, during this week's edition of Blazers Courtside. Remarkably, no one was injured during the taping of this segment.

Original video of the play here. 
Quotes from the players and coaches here. 
The NBA admitting it got the call wrong here. 
Dave's  extended thoughts here. 
BlazersMakr's FanShot: Major Vegas action on OKC prior to tip here. 
Audio of Chad Doing of 750 AM The Game going HAM on Foster here.

OK, that should just about wrap up the goaltending discussion.

Courtside video via Blazers Broadcasting cameraman John Curry.

-- Ben Golliver | benjamin.golliver@gmail.com | Twitter
In 2008 Tim Donaghy indicated that Scott Foster was a ref that also fixed games
Blazers Owner Paul Allen Ranked No. 3 American Philanthropist In 2011
Rhino

Recent FanShots

LaMarcus Aldridge Needs Support Around Him
LaMarcus Aldridge Finds Out He's An All-Star With His Teammates
Congratulations to Portland Trail Blazers forward LaMarcus Aldridge, on his first All Star selection.

As seen on www.trailblazers.com
AWoj: Aldridge an All Star
It's pretty clear that the season is over already ;)
CRAZY stat from Houston game
NBA MVP Rankings... LMA @ #10
Celtics interested in Rondo - Gasol swap? ...
Batum - Top 10 NBA Sixth Men

+ New FanShot All FanShots >


Editors

Kitten_small Dave

Headshotsmall_small Ben Golliver

Lead Moderators

Getfuzzy-satchel_small Timmay!

Bucky3_small Cablinasian

Authors

Plainlc_small Storyteller

Moderators

Lamb_small T Darkstar

Small douglast

Terryporter_small prezofdeath

Small usmcr3049

Lrg_magpie_small Corvid

Wallpaper_small geoffm