Our Offense is Offensive Part 3
I didn't really anticipate writing a series on the Blazer's offense, much less title it offensive. But here we are I suppose, on the wrong side of the scoreboard against the Lakers. You can read my first two analysis and observations on Nate's offensive system here.
I'm gonna give some background on my familiarity with Nate's offense. I live in Seattle, thus before Nate left the Emerald City, I had the opportunity to watch plenty of Sonic games with Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis. The personnel between Blazers and the Sonics could not be any more different, yet the basic tenets of Nate's offense is the same. Slow and deliberate half-court offense off pick and rolls resulting in midrange jumpers and corner 3-pointers.
Most people are surprised to find out that the Sonics played a slow pace under Nate with a point guard like Luke Ridnour. The Sonics played slow, but they played efficiently and took advantage of opportunistic fast breaks. They were able to win 50 games one year and took the Spurs to 6 games in the second round. One of the main reasons they were competitive with the Spurs was because of shooting a high percentage on midrange jumpers. Any coach will tell you that the midrange shot is the least efficient shot to take in basketball. Well, the Sonics stat guru found out the Spurs' weakness was defending the midrange shot and told the coaches to exploit it. This actually fit well with the offense Nate was running and the Sonics played a more competitive series than most experts thought.
Where am I going with this?
From the Sonics to the Blazers, and now three years of personnel changes with the Blazers, Nate is still running the same offense he ran with Ray Allen and Rashard Lews. Sometimes I wonder if our problems scoring in the paint is indicative of the offensive system or our players are just afraid of the paint. When I watch successful teams like the Lakers, Jazz, or the Spurs, I'm envious of their offense which put players in a position to score close to the hoop. Instead of two players moving and three players watching, those teams utilize cross screens, back screens, handoffs, rolls, and curls. Each movement could end up in a score while the Blazers movement inevitably resets into a high pick and roll.
This year with Oden, I have yet to see any lobs or cross screens for him to receive the ball deep in the paint. Everyone said that Oden was gonna help us attack the hoop. I don't see a offensive structure to help him to do that, I see the same offensive structure to get more jumpshots off his double teams.
Where is the creativity? Where are the movements and passes that result in close shots at the basket? Is it the personnel or the coach? Did KP acquire a bunch of guys who are unwilling to attack the hoop?
This is just one game on opening night, but it has been happening for a while now. I'm growing more impatient and frustrated that it hasn't been addressed.
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While I certainly didn't have your nuance of thought
I did notice the same thing as you. I didn’t realize it hearkened back to his Seattle coaching tour, but I have noticed this same offense ad nauseum. With Oden in there it just doesn’t make sense to play the way Nate is having our offense run. Well written post and definitely food for thought. I’m tried so peace out!
He's Coming! Oden Slayer of Giants
As close as it gets
to a fire Nate post after the first game. Congrats.
I can see you are frustrated. This was a difficult game to swallow. It will be interesting to see what this is followed up with. Honestly, we play some tough teams the first 5 games, so I’ll reserve judgement. You really should have waited to post this until a little later in the season so you don’t look like that guy.
Actually I wanted to post this in the preseason
Then I thought it might be too premature because we were getting points in the paint in the preseason and I didn’t get a chance to watch the games. Now that I watched the game tonight, it reaffirmed my thoughts from last season. That is disappointing to me.
Execution and strategy are different. Just because we didn’t execute tonight by hitting our jumpshots doesn’t mean our strategy was right.
I didn’t call for Nate to be fired. I believe his offense needs to be reformed.
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
You're right about Nate McMillan, as he's always ran an overly simplistic offensive scheme.
As a one-time Sonic fan, I also watched the same bland, ineffective offensive sets in utter annoyance.
Great post (the original up top)
For whatever reason, Nate prefers a stagnated offense. Why he never uses any motion is beyond me and it’s bothered me forever.
BUT, I still think Nates a great coach, who is still learning with the players. I just wish he’d explore the offensive possibilities with this team.
Witty Unpredictable Talent and Natural Game
by iDea on Oct 29, 2008 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well...
…one thought – however heretical – could it be in part a reflection on the age and experience of the team? Some Blazers have great BBIQ – others, not so much. Given the number of young players out there, it could be that the ‘overly simplistic offensive scheme’ is about all the current roster can handle.
I may be completely wrong about this and it could just be a shortcoming of the Blazers’ coaching staff, but it is something to consider.
Absolutely
Makes you think about that tidbit from Ken Bone, about Nate having to teach the basic fundamentals to the team. This could be the NFL equivalent of a preseason playbook.
The problem with that theory, as pointed out in the original post, is that Nate employed this offense in Seattle as well. Who knows…….but I’d love to see some motion.
Witty Unpredictable Talent and Natural Game
yeah could be
but if what blzrfan says is true, his Sonics team also used the same offense. Those Sonics teams weren’t young.
I'd have to say I pretty much agree
Case in point…The famous Martell Webster 24 point third quarter. Martell has been inconsistant so far in his career, but I like him a lot and believe he is an important piece to this team. It really stinks that he is hurt right now, and his injury will prove to be a bigger setback for this team than I think we realize. Anyways….
The Blazers were deliberate in how they moved Martell around and utilized picks to get him open in that game against Utah. It was truly Reggie Milleresque. So why is this implemented for that game, or quarter for that matter, and then we rarely ever see it again?
And then, it seems like we are allergic to scoring points in the paint for some reason….yet other teams continue to penetrate at will against us.
My last rant for this post…
We have the most athletic team in the league and yet we are the worst fastbreaking team around. This is a big waste of our young legs and athletic ability, and I hope it changes. If this doesn’t change, then I’ll let you fellow B-Edgers figure out what the solution is. Go Blazers!
Can I buy you a fish sandwich?
Utah game,
In Seattle, Nate used the same sets with Ray Allen. Running baseline to baseline and running along the foul line extended. If Allen didn’t have an open shot, he ran a pick and roll.
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
Criticizing Nate's Offense
Last year similar things were being said about his scheme. This year could be very telling. If our team doesn’t improve dramatically one constant is the coach.
I don't think he meant their record.
Their record was outstanding for such a young team last year.
I think he means that he expect players who have been here a couple years should show improvement on the court, not in their record. He’d like to see more BBIQ, better movement, and signs of team growth among the “veterans” (who are still young). That’s a pretty reasonable comment.
There’s a question of whether that’s a problem with the player or coach. But sooner or later, the coach would get looked at, if it continues.
(Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood, colganc!)
My problem is
blazers shoot to many jumpers and dont drive inside. if they would drive inside at least they would get fouled. The other thing is that Blazers look like the oldest team in the NBA. No fast break points mean dont know how to pass the ball the right way in the right time. I believe that in order to be dominant we have to run and play half court equally.
Not entirely true
Roy drives inside. Jack drove inside (and dribbled off his foot). Rudy has shown he can drive inside. Bayless drives inside. Batum (occasionally) drives inside. Even Martell was showing much more propensity to drive inside in the preseason before he broke his foot.
The bigger problem is that some of the Blazers are soft. They don’t want to take the hard contact (I’m looking at you, Travis, LaMarcus and Channing). They need to grow a pair and draw some fouls.
They start to drive
then practically always kick it back out for a jumper. I cant tell you how frustrated I was getting with their play in the first half. Lots of drives, never putting the ball in the air once they got close. Even when only seconds left on the clock. Our spacing wasn’t that great when the ball did come back out. Basically we played like it was summer league. Its only the first game and maybe we just need to gel a little and get some consistency.
Good point
However, sometimes it is good to kick out when you drive the double-team…just not every frickin’ time.
by DonkeyShins on Oct 29, 2008 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Easy buckets
We just don’t get them. Fast break buckets, points in the paint (i’m looking at you LMA – you had a nice little hook shot from 8 feet tonight, it looked money. Every other shot you took was from 16 feet), driving layins or dunks, lob passes to the post, tip-ins, put-backs. We don’t get any of those in any kind of quantity. We need to figure out a way to get more.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
thank you blzrfan
I have been trying to understand what is up with the Blazers offense since I started watching early last season. I have found myself pointing a finger at Blake, because he does not credibly attack the basket. But I have wondered if there is not something more systemic happening.
I think this teams’ hopes of a dynamic offense lie with Rudy. And what Nate does with him. Build an offense around him. At least the movement part of the offense.
Could be time to hire an assistant who is an offensive guru.
hire an assistant who is an offensive guru
ding ding ding
My thoughts exactly. Nate’s coaches (Demo, Monty, Lucas) are predominantly defensive-minded, like McMillian. Luke will work on low post moves, Monty/Demo will assist players with their catch-and-shoot jump shots and the team has a shooting coach. What they really need is an innovative offensive coordinator (like D’Antoni) who has enough of Nate’s respect to install effective sets, both in the halfcourt and especially in transition offense.
Either that, or KP needs to make a deal for a penetrating veteran point guard
I've been harping on this for years !
No movement. Perhaps Nate and the players should
be forced into a room to watch Hoosiers for 12 hours
straight. As Snapper used to say often, " You have to move
the ball, move people". The simple fact remains, the ball
moves faster by the pass than the dribble. Bring back
Bobby Gross and have him teach these players how to
move without the ball. It’s one of the reasons I like watching
Rudy. A lot of movement. Of course, there are always times
when a dribbler has to break down his defender, but take
the ball the the rack. Learn how to use you body to protect the
ball and get off your shot or draw the foul. It’s elementary !!
COINCAST SUCKS !!! I’TS GO TIME FOR PAUL ALLEN !!!!
It's GO time !
I was noticing Martell curling off the screen a lot in the preseason
As well as running the baseline (a la The Famous Utah game™). Nic looks like he’s up for this style of play as well. Rudy thrives on this sort of play. Perhaps we will see more of this style of play as the season wears on.
One thing that helps if you are doing a lot of off-the-ball movement is the ability to catch & shoot. Unfortunately, not too many of the current roster are entirely comfortable doing this (yet). Give them time.
I agree wholeheartedly that the Blazers should bring Bobby Gross in to teach the kids how to move without the ball. The guy was a Zen Master at that (and not in the creepy Phil Jackson sense).
this was only one game
So we have to take that into account. However the offense in this game was really really bad. My friends and I talked a few times during the game that the Blazers problems seemed to have more to do with them not hitting shots than the lakers playing really stellar defense, then Phil Jackson basically said the same thing during his 3rd qtr interview. Most of those shots were mid-range shots, or layups that were very difficult. We shot 42% from 3, but 34% overall? My god our 2pt % must have been below 25%! How many 24 second violations did we have? I can remember at least 2 or 3.
Here are the things I felt led to this bad of a defeat on opening night.
1) The Blazers were not prepared. Nate even said it in his post game, they were just not ready for the intensity of the regular season, this was a coaching mistake. Nate has to get them ready, no matter what.
2) Not enough movement on offense. The TNT guys said this pretty much all game long, the Blazers need an offensive identity, right now they have the high screen and roll or one on one and that is it.
3) Nate’s choice to start Outlaw over Batum. Not because Batum would be a better choice, but because of the message it sends. Batum had been playing over his head in the preseason and camp, enough so that 2 weeks before the season started, Nate started running him with the 1st unit, BRoy gave him his stamp of approval, and Nate named him the starter for the 1st game. Then on the day of the game he yanks him and starts Outlaw. This could have disrupted the 1st team’s offense, and Outlaw had not practiced with them at all for the most part, and even though he had a good game, all of his shots were the one on one type, and did not come in any type of offensive flow. Maybe that contributed to BRoy and LMA’s off nights, maybe not. It also told Batum that his coach thinks he can’t handle it, after 2 weeks of telling him he could. Actions speak louder that words my momma said, I hope Batum’s confidence can handle that and still come out and play well when we need him.
3) Not playing Sergio more than 4 mins. Nate needs to let go of this team. He reminds me of Avery Johnson that way, he just can’t let the team play, he has to have control over it at all times. Last season this team played it’s best when Nate took off the reigns a bit in December. In the case of Sergio, his confidence is kinda shaky, although he had a good preseason, he is still feeling his way, benching him after 4 mins, (basically playing him the exact same way he did last year) does nothing but take a hammer to the glass and break the momention Sergio had going. More so, the team can see that, and see that Nate is still holding on very tight to the team. During Nate’s interview he said the team needed to slow down, which I am not sure was the case. They were all admittedly nervous or amped up for the game, which can lead to playing too fast. But the 1st qtr saw more bricks and players over running a play, or taking rushed shots. Maybe he meant they need to calm down, I can only hope.
With all that said, Nate is a good coach, but I wish he would hire an assistant to put in a great offensive system, like Dean has done for the zone defenses, or like Tex Winters has done for the Lake show. Because Nate preferred system is not working, and hasn’t worked since that Seattle team won 50 games. (They had Ray Allen, the best pure shooter in the NBA taking those mid range shots, we don’t) I think we all need to remember as well that Nate is not some battle hardened coach who has been through it all before. He has only coached for 8 seasons, and of those seasons he has made the playoffs twice with Seattle. He is learning still just like our players, but he needs to learn quickly that this team doesn’t have the pure shooters to run his current offense and make the adjustments.
by usmcr3049 on Oct 29, 2008 8:18 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
oops, typo
“During Nate’s interview he said the team needed to slow down, which I am not sure was the case. They were all admittedly nervous or amped up for the game, which can lead to playing too fast. But the 1st qtr saw more bricks and players over running a play, or taking rushed shots.”
That should have read:
“During Nate’s interview he said the team needed to slow down, which I am not sure was the case. They were all admittedly nervous or amped up for the game, which can lead to playing too fast. But the 1st qtr saw more bricks than players over running a play, or taking rushed shots.”
Good points
especially about the offense. While I think a lot of it has to do with some of our guys just not having that great a sense of where they should/need to be on offense a lot of the time (TO, Webster the last couple years, even LA sometimes) it shouldn’t be heretical to think that we could benefit from bringing in an assistant to install a little more of a coherent offensive system, similar to what Lawrence Frank did for Byron Scott did in NJ, or what Thibodeaux has done for Boston’s defense. We really look lost at times on offense, not just in this game, but all throughout last year. We just go through unconscionable cold streaks in the middle of games, and as much as I love Outlaw when he’s hitting, taking two dribbles to pull up and shoot a contested 20 footer fading to the side is never going to be a high percentage shot.
Nate is great at certain things, motivating guys, settling things down coming out of timeouts, keeping an even keel, but I don’t think developing a coherent offensive system is one of them. The guys it really seems to be hurting are LA and Blake. I cringe every time I see LA pop out to 18 feet for the third time in a row off a pick rather than move towards the basket. I get that LA likes that shot, but unless he’s mixing it up a little bit, teams will just keep jumping it and he’ll be stuck shooting that contested shot. With Blake, it;s more of a drain since he’s unable to break people down individually, but he’s great at hitting guys coming off motion. He can facilitate an offense, but he’s not creating anything out of nothing, which is what he’s being asked to do right now.
Admittedly, our offense would have looked a lot better if we were hitting a lot of those shots that we normally make, but I still think even then it’d just be papering over some of the cracks.
Point 3 is right on
Great post Blzrfan.
by spencerbutte on Oct 29, 2008 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah,
why play Sergio under five minutes. All points throughout this post and comments are pretty spot on. Just about everyone was bricking shots and playing loose with the ball so why only pick on Sergio. When he was playing he made some pretty sweet passes and wasnt as predictable as Blake’s. So he made some mistakes I saw a bad shot on a three and a bad pass on an alley oop in traffic. Im sorry but I just dont get Nate sometimes. Yeah, yeah its one game and the first one at that but still…
You're Right!
It’s no secret (to most people), that the closer you get to the hoop, the more your FG% goes up. Maybe Nate hasn’t figured that out.
Nate has good aspects as a head coach...
………………………. I wish he’d play like a NFL head coach and bring in a hotshot Offensive Coordinator.
"It's not a joke -- it's not a game." — B-Rex
+1
Nate has a narrow offensive vision…no creation at all….he could use some help….Just like the combination of a running game(inside/outside) and passing game (down field/underneath) gets you a higher probability of scoring by keeping the defense honest.
You are spot on
There is a problem with the slow and methodical approach to Nate’s offense…he has young players and need to use that to an advantage….Nate also had this approach when he played the game….I absolutely hate this style….it’s anything but exciting and gets minimal results…you live by the jump shot and die by the jump shot….
The pressure should be on him this year…he no longer is rebuilding with players…he has players and it’s time to figure out what works and what doesn’t……We still see no change in an offense that has major flaws
Calm Down
Let’s see, Oden lasted 15 minutes, went 0-5, and then was gone. So, you’re back to Pryz, who has little or no offensive game. LMA and Frye, in turn, were throwing up bricks, as was Roy.
The comment that Mac must “get them ready no matter what” ignores the fact that you can’t get people ready if they can’t play. Remember? Blake, Frye, and Fernandez missed 1/2 or more of training camp. Webster was out entirely. Oden and Roy were working themselves back into shape after injuries. And, you’ve got 4 rookies.
So, no matter what friends – this is still pre-season. And it will be for another week or two. And there’s nothing we – or Mac – can do about that.
You can’t go inside if there’s no one to go inside to. Every element of this team was out of sync – with the exception of Rudy.
As far as Bayless playing – not to worry. This was the perfect time to start seasoning Bayless. By the end of the year, Bayless will play more time than Sergio. And there are 4 reasons. First his defence is better, and his offence is as good. Second, he works harder. He was in the practice facility until mid-night a number of times during the pre-season – and it was him, and a coach – no one else. And finally, he’ll learn the game – because that is what he doesn’t have. The rest will catch up.
I think you are missing my point
Nate already baked the cake with his offensive system. This game or future games cannot change the way I see the offense unless Nate institutes a philosophical overhaul. It is a system designed around creating 3 point shots and mid-rang jumpers or individual isolations.
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
I think you both have points
To amplify what Eben C. wrote: the Lakers were packing the middle to prevent penetration. I think Phil J. was guessing that the Blazers would be too tight to hit wide open jumpers, and he was right. The good news is that when this group of Blazers aren’t overly hyped up (as they were on Tuesday), they can hit those shots and force defenses out of zones. Roy, LMA, Blake, Rudy, Trout, Martell, Frye (even Sergio now, I believe)—those guys can all hit wide open 15-17 foot jumpers on ordinary nights. And if they can do that, then other offensive options will be available to them.
But in support of your point: there’s a real question as to whether Nate is prepared to explore many of those options. Pick & roll and drive & dish have their limitations when defenses are geared to stop them. I’ve often written off Sergio, but I’m ready to change my tune. At least let the two Spaniards loose in the second unit. Watching replays of the ’77 Blazers, they turned it over plenty. But they also got lots of layups as a result of all that movement and passing. Sure beats watching one jumper after another clanging off the rim.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Nate chose not play LMA/Roy/Oden at all in Utah
It’s not a valid excuse to say “… you can’t get people ready if they can’t play”. Nate wasted the Utah game just because it was a back-to-back game – even though there were 5 days to rest before the first game! That made no sense with a young team full of new combinations that needed time together. That would have been an excellent opportunity for them to play against a tough Sloan coached team, and would have helped prepare them better for the opener. Then he switched the starting line up at the last minute after practicing for a week with another line up. I don’t think we would have beaten LA anyway, but we could have been much better prepared to put up a good fight.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Oct 29, 2008 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Great thoughts everyone
I think there is a good consensus concerning the problems of our offensive system. Although I also sense some people are discarding this game as an exception when the issues are systemic. The problems cannot just by solved with wins over teams like the Kings or Timberwolves. The Blazers will not change much if there is no impetus from KP or Coach Nate, I hope they will acknowledge those deficiencies in the personnel and system then make decisions accordingly.
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
With you Blzrfan
Nate has a heck of a job in front of him. Does he patch it up with the current scheme and try to claw his way to match or exceed last years win total, or does he let go and start thinking about playing a more uptempo game?
It almost feels to me like the team has more to learn offensively from Rudy Fernandez than it does from the coaching staff. This will be a real test of this organization. They have to keep their poise and be willing to adapt. Tough assignment.
+1 to blzerfan...I'd have to agree...
the whole time I was watching the game from the second it flickered onto the screen and I seen the 4-16ish score…I was screaming ’’WHY IS GREG OUT AT THE TOP OF THE KEY" (I knew he was there to set a screen, but he was there for wayyyyyyy to long), “WHY IS LAMARCUS NOT WHERE ODEN IS, AND ODEN DOWN ON THE BLOCK”……WHY DID NO ONE THROW A LOB AFTER THE PENETRATION……
then I realized ….it was the western confrence champs who showed up to play and make a statement…..
but really for realzzzz nate needs to employ a fluider offense……it just looked herky jerky last night….
we were getting traped, and the guy’s without the ball wern’t moving towards it….we had 0 rebounding effort after greg go yanked….shots were going up and all I saw was yellow in the key……
ALOT of things went wrong…..
The faith (and I'm a guy) perverts. :)
Nate's history:
2000-01: 9th (mixed in with Westphal)
2001-02: 5th
2002-03: 19th
2003-04: 3rd
2004-05: 2nd
2005-06: 30th
2006-07: 19th
2007-08: 14th
Those are the offensive efficiencies for Nate’s teams. Is there a reason those teams should have been higher than they were? The 2005-06 team was truly bad, the 2006-07 team showcased an inefficient Zach for a season, and last year’s team only had half of a post threat and still beat out over half of the rest of the teams.
The history shows that Nate’s offense is fine. It also shows that Nate likes really slow games, meaning the teams do well in points per game. I think last night was about as bad as this team could have done on offense, and shouldn’t really factor much into the discussion.
Did you not see stat they put up last night on TNT
The Blazers were last or near the bottom 5 in these categories.
*Points in Paint
*Fastbreak Points
*Second Chance Points
*FT Attempts
Even if you adjust for pace, those stats don’t get anymore pretty. The truth is we don’t get any easy points through our offensive system. What works against teams in the regular season will not work in the playoffs. Jumpshooting teams do not succeed in the playoffs.
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
Points in Paint, and Second Chance Points
Hopefully these two will change drastically this year.
the OP nailed the issue well
It’s easy to be efficient with a jumpshooting offense when you have Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis taking those shots.
WWKPD?
Ambassador to the Miami Heat
Vladimir Radmanovic ...
came off of the bench at power forward behind Reggie Evans for roughly 30 minutes per game, too.
Sans Antonio Daniels, the 2004-2005 Seattle SuperSonics lacked players who’d take it to the hoop.
poster-
what is “offensive efficiency?” Do you have a formula for that stat?
Offensive efficiency
It’s basically pace-adjusted points per game. The simple formula is points scored / # of possessions played. The Blazers were the 2nd slowest team last year, so our points per game were below average despite an average offense. Our defense was also average at 17th last season, though we look game in points per game.
i would really like
the blazers to run more, i think we have a few good finishers, and are probably more athletic than a lot of teams too. im not too fond of the excessive jumpshooting, and i think aldridge could be a beast in the post if he wanted too.
Comparison
Blazers: Pass ball to Player A at point B. Player A then moves near Player C at Point 2-F. Then Player D cuts across the lane and flashes while the ball is being passed from Player A to Player D. At which point Player E moves to Point 3-C. Player D then looks to Player E and if that is not open, he swings the ball to Player B who has since moved to point 6-A.
Lakers: Pass, cut, fast-break, score baskets
Blazer Fan

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