Vince Carter...the missing piece? (with poll)
by jsmuc on Oct 20, 2008 2:18 PM PDT
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PrintI was listening to one of the podcasts that Dave was on a few weeks ago and they brought up the possibility of trading for Vince Carter. If the blazers could get him for Raef's expiring contract and maybe a combination of Outlaw, Bayless, and Webster I think it would be a great trade. I haven't heard anything about Vince being a "bad guy" and while he has been criticized for not taking the ball to the hole as much as he should he still is a dynamic scorer that can score from anywhere on the court.
On the podcast they even likened him a little to Rasheed as far as not really wanting to be the main guy in the spotlight. I don't know if that is true but if it is it certainly wouldn't be a bad thing with the team the blazers have.
Being a small forward, he would also address the blazer's only "weak spot" in their starting lineup. Just think how awesome the blazer's starting lineup would be. Oden, Aldridge, Carter, Roy, and Blake, I mean this would cause many sleepless nights for a lot of NBA defensive coaches.
With that lineup I don't know how you could argue that the blazers would not be legit championship contenders right away. You may say that it would hurt long term but they are not going to be able to keep all these players anyway plus you still have Rudy and Outlaw, Bayless, or Webster coming off the bench.
The question is if the nets would do it, but it seems to me that it would make sense for them too. They would get Raef's giant expiring contract which would help create cap space plus they would get two quality young players. They aren't going to be able to win anything with Vince now so they may as well get what they can for him. Maybe the Nets wouldn't make the trade, but if they would I think it would be great for the blazers and make them instant contenders.
What do you guys think?
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Hideous Idea
Vince Carter would not fit in any way on this team. His defense is pitiful, he’s more about scoring than winning, and he takes too many low percentage shots. He’s also ancient, costs too much money, and is signed for too many years on that hideous contract.
by as11osu on Oct 20, 2008 2:30 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Aside from that, he's perfect!!
Seriously, I can’t believe anyone is still discussing acquiring Vince Carter for this Blazer team.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Im going to be in the minority
But I like it. If he came here I would think he would want to be serious about wining.
Bring back headbands!
which as we all know
is only one tiny letter away from being “serious about whining”
I don’t like to hurt people, but my roundhouse is legendary
by cic on Oct 20, 2008 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would want to research Carter's health,
attitude, etc. before saying yes or no to this deal, but my gut tells me that Carter has become the player a team like Memphis brings in to get butts in the seats, not to bump a playoff team into title contender status.
"Personally, I'd rather give an elephant a prostate exam on Chili Day." --Dave on rooting for the Lakers or Celtics
yeah some pitiful team
oh wait didnt we try to do that like 4 years ago?
The pictures kinda small, but Im giving the C's a big thumbs down
by Blazermaniac77 on Oct 20, 2008 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn't even read the post. My answer is NO.
Vince Carter is not the answer to any team’s problems.
BINGO, BANGO, BONGO
by blzrfan on Oct 20, 2008 2:48 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
lol...
I did the exact same thing: Saw the title of the post scolled down to the correct answer NO then went on to read the angry post that were no doubt to follow.
by In Walks Rudy on Oct 21, 2008 5:33 AM PDT up reply actions
The missing piece to what?
A jigsaw puzzle picturing a pile of dog crap?
OK, a little hyperbole there. But seriously, Carter is not a winner, not a team player. He’s a chucker, makes too much money, and will be 32 in January. No thanks.
Besides, I’m liking this little homegrown thing we’ve got going here. All the important players on our team besides Pryz and Blake were drafted by the Blazers. In this day and age, that’s incredible, and I’d like to keep it that way—at least until we know for sure if Martell’s foot is going to be okay.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
Is Carter the final Piece of the Dog Poop Puzzle?
“A jigsaw puzzle picturing a pile of dog crap?”
You be the judge… it is a colorful proposition though right?
I've got second hand diabetes from eating to many candy cigarettes.
If we hire somebody to motivate Vince with a taser before every game, why not?
Otherwise he will only show up to play at the highest level every once in a while. Physically the guy is at least as talented as Kobe, yet he has made comparatively little out of his natural gifts.
Odenied: If you're given lemmings—make lemming-ade (Bow4Meow)
The question is if the nets would do it
no question they’d do it as quickly as possible, before KP could break his way out of the closet that you (hypothetically) locked him into
Half man…the other half is over the hill
“Vin-senility” (in basketball years…)
Don’t throw away RLEC so casually, and take on VCEC that has years to go before it expires…
Vince sucks.
NO VINCE CARTER on the Trail Blazers! Vinsanity is DEAD ! He is old and overrated. He dogged it to get out of Toronto. " I don’t want to dunk anymore ’ as an example. The Nets suck, and he wouldn’t do us good. I liked him in the younger days in Toronto. Now he sucks. Leave him in the swamp in NJ.
by CanadianBlazerfan on Oct 20, 2008 3:36 PM PDT reply actions
Thank you!
You posted a yes or no poll and kindly left the answers simply as “yes” and “no”, rather than trying to define the “why” as well. Thus, I was able to exercise my vote.
I voted no. I think he’s too old to fit our timeline. Also, loading up a lineup with too many “stars” does not generally work. You need role players in this league surrounding your core 3-4 guys.
Great move in a fantasty league, notsomuch in the NBA.
Rule #1 of nitpicking is to get it right.
Actually this poll SHOULD have included another category
Something along the lines of “That’s absolutely ridiculous and would make utterly no sense and cause everyone to question whether KP has been abducted by aliens and inhabited by the spirit of Isiah Thomas.”
I would’ve chosen that option. “No” just wasn’t as satisfying.
Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.
Can we just say from now on
that any post that ends with “what do you guys think?” should be removed before ever having seen the light of day?
barf.
This idea seems to come up every few months.
It’s still a bad idea.
VC = NO GOOD (FOR OUR TEAM)
"When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car"
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Oct 20, 2008 4:11 PM PDT reply actions
and
trading for an all star comes up at least once a week, aging or otherwise. Do we have a lot of fans that like the starting lineup introductions better than long term success?
"It was halfway through the fourth quarter of an exhibition game, a 30 point blowout, and I absolutely did not want it to end. Time: move slower so this moment stretches.
Dunk Parade.
Forever."
-Ben
"...our second unit is probably going to be a little better than your second unit…and by "probably going to be a little better than" I mean "is going to crush like a dump truck running over an empty beer can""
"YOU MOVE NOW! GREG DUNK BIG!"
-Dave
I'd do this one...
New Jersey Nets
Incoming Players
Jerryd Bayless
Salary: $1,993,560 Years Remaining: 2
Raef LaFrentz
Salary: $12,722,500 Years Remaining: 1
Steve Blake
Salary: $4,250,000 Years Remaining: 2
Travis Outlaw
Salary: $4,000,000 Years Remaining: 2
Outgoing Players: Vince Carter, Devin HarrisPortland Trail Blazers
Incoming Players
Vince Carter
Salary: $14,724,125 Years Remaining: 4
Devin Harris
Salary: $7,800,000 Years Remaining: 5
Outgoing Players: Jerryd Bayless, Raef LaFrentz, Steve Blake, Travis Outlaw
Or perhaps Outlaw/Joel/Diogu for Vince (which still saves them some money and doesn’t cost us so much in the future).
I wouldn’t mind him as a piece, it’s his contract that’s outrageous.
My Favorite Non-Blazers: Dwight Howard, Andre Iguodala, Allen Iverson, Andrei Kirilenko, Gilbert Arenas, Elton Brand, Jermaine O'neal, Chris Bosh
It would be awesome if the blazers could get Devin Harris...
just don’t think there would be any way the nets would let him go.
Maybe the Nets are more willing to see Harris go
after they watch the video of him getting shown up on the court by a British guy in a v-neck sweater
Devin Harris is a different story...
tell me you guys wouldn’t love to go back to last winter and make the trade that was rumored.
I was one of very few that actually wanted to do it back then:
Blazers Get: Devin Harris PG, Brandon Bass PF
Nets Get: Travis Outlaw SF, Channing Frye PF, Jarrett Jack PG
Mavs Get: Jason Kidd PG
I wanted to get Harris
and I didn’t want to get Kidd, which was another rumor, I believe.
"It was halfway through the fourth quarter of an exhibition game, a 30 point blowout, and I absolutely did not want it to end. Time: move slower so this moment stretches.
Dunk Parade.
Forever."
-Ben
"...our second unit is probably going to be a little better than your second unit…and by "probably going to be a little better than" I mean "is going to crush like a dump truck running over an empty beer can""
"YOU MOVE NOW! GREG DUNK BIG!"
-Dave
The Mavs were not going to trade both Harris and Bass
Odenied: If you're given lemmings—make lemming-ade (Bow4Meow)
Thats not the way I remember it...
The last I remember on that particular rumored trade was that the Nets were the team unsatisfied with their coup. The Nets would’ve been okay, had they ended up with Kidd. That was before Bass started to be a beast like creature. Most Portland fans hated it, just like they hate most things good for them. Valuing our players too highly (in this case Outlaw), and not realizing what we’d be getting back (a top 10 young PG). Who knows, maybe if we throw down RLEC , Bayless and one of our SF/PF’s we could still get in on Harris. He’s the piece we needed. I’m surprised KP wasn’t willing to give up that extra player to make this one happen. It seems like with a player of Harris’ caliber, we would’ve scored our final decisive Championship piece. Now that he’s reached the Nets roster, and they see him everyday, it’ll be harder to score him.
Brandon Bass is a cheaper, lesser-known version Zach Randolph; that's not a compliment.
Since Bass is a substandard defender and black hole on offense for the Dallas Mavericks’ second unit, I’m totally shocked as to how overrated he’s become by folks across the country. For starters, Bass shoots a bundle of inefficient mid-range jumpers — which consisted of 69% of his field-goal attempts last season — and that’s way, way too many for an alleged banger on the low block. Also, Bass’ poor agility and mobility hurts him defensively. Regarding on-court/off-court metrics, Bass gave up a net of +2.4 points allowed per 100 possessions and a net of +1.6 eFG% allowed last season.
All in all, people tend to overrate guys like Bass, Ike Diogu, Craig Smith, and Jason Maxiell.
Maybe as a whole from last season
You’re completely missing the boat on Bass. He constantly was forced to defend the opponents best interior scorer because a lot of his minutes came by default with Irk Nowitzki. Did you know that when defending the power forward position he gave up less points per possession than Kevin Garnett? It was the garbage time when he was forced to defend Centers that he struggled. Imagine that, a 6’8" player struggling against NBA centers. Its almost like they were okay with that. He plays great position defense, and is always in the right spot to get the rebound. Defending 4’s, he’s more than capable of getting a block or two as well. He also developed a lot on the offensive end during the year. Shooting 47% from the field the first half of the year, and finishing the year scoring at a 57% clip. A higher and higher percentage of his shots came from inside on put backs as the year progressed. And you’re right, he does take a high percentage of jump shots for a 4, but he scores at a 47% rate with his mid range. By comparison, LMA only hit at a 42% rate. That makes you wonder what Bass might eventually become. He doesn’t have as much in the way of potential, but he’s already a high efficiency player. He just shouldn’t be stuck playing center (and had he come here, he would’ve had to).
The definition of "selfish player"
Not to mention over-the-hill and sinking fast. I can only think of one player I like less than Vince and I’d prefer not use his name.
Here's a simple trade.
FROM NEW JERSEY & TO PORTLAND
SF/SG Vince Carter
FROM PORTLAND & TO NEW JERSEY
C/PF Raef LaFrentz
SG/PG Jerryd Bayless
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1363417454&teams=221717&te=&cash=
In an earlier post, I wrote an in-depth analysis apropos of the numerous positives regarding a potential acquisition of Vince Carter, who’s the most inherently gifted athlete in the NBA today. Unfortunately, though, many folks’ hilariously outlandish bias against him — which is oftentimes due to a combination of ignorance and idiocy — clouded their judgement.
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/7/3/564100/kevin-pritchard-go-all-in
Unbeknownst to several of y’all, Carter is still a dominant force; that’s especially true regarding peripheral statistics, which people frequently discard in lieu of subjective bull**** like effort and team-orientedness. Carter, without question, would be a massive upgrade at small forward over Travis Outlaw and Martell Webster—there’s no doubt about it.
Incredibly mistaken...
He’s pitiful defending the small forward position, he can’t shoot the 3, he needs a lot of shots, and he turns the ball over way too much for a player that only has the ball in 1 on 1 situations. Now most importantly, he’s owed 68 million dollars over the next 4 years. Years that he will be 32, 33, 34, and 35 years old. This is not a player that is going to be getting any better at any of these things. In fact, he’s reached the point in his career where you can expect significant declines in his return on a yearly basis. Do I want to play that said player 17 million dollars per year for the next 4 years? You better believe I don’t. Pure ignorance is the only reason you would want VC on this team. His attitude doesn’t mesh with our team oriented guys. Crazy slam dunks are nice and everything, but I’m more about logic and fit and winning than style and showmanship. He’s also about as anti-clutch in the playoffs as any player in recent memory. In his last playoff series he shot 18% from the field in clutch minutes. Lets just go on the assumption that if we want guys with playoff experience, those guys should at the very least have some good playoff experience.
Regarding Vince Carter, I'll concede the arguments of his rising age and excessive salary.
Nonetheless, the claims of Carter supposedly having a negative attitude and not being clutch — as his eFG% during crunch-time situations (48.1) was just 1.3 less than his overall eFG% (49.4) — are pure garbage.
http://www.82games.com/0708/07NJN9A.HTM
Yet, if push came to shove, I wouldn’t pull the trigger on acquiring Carter, which is mainly due to my concern of financial flexibility. That, however, has nothing to do with Carter’s undeniable effectiveness on the hardwood.
Yes, he puts up good numbers
but he’s also known for quitting on his teams, only playing 100% in order to get another contract, having a large contract and being old. Those are all legitimate concerns. The biggest concern, IMO, is fit. He could put up all world statistics and that wouldn’t make him a good fit for the team. I don’t think the Blazer offense needs a 20pt scorer or a guy who gets 18 shots a game. I’d be very surprised if he voluntarily reduced his output to fit in with the team. This guy has been the go to guy on every team he’s been on; he won’t settle for 3rd or 4th option.
And that’s just this year. I see that as11osu has commented as I write this, so I’ll echo what he said. Vince Carter is declining. Anybody that relies on athleticism like he does is bound to decline at his age. We might get 1 or 2 years of solid production, but then we’re stuck with an aging ball hog who doesn’t play D.
I said this already in this thread, but I want to repeat it. It seems like some people are more interested in the starting lineup announcement than in long term success.
"It was halfway through the fourth quarter of an exhibition game, a 30 point blowout, and I absolutely did not want it to end. Time: move slower so this moment stretches.
Dunk Parade.
Forever."
-Ben
"...our second unit is probably going to be a little better than your second unit…and by "probably going to be a little better than" I mean "is going to crush like a dump truck running over an empty beer can""
"YOU MOVE NOW! GREG DUNK BIG!"
-Dave
what do you want out of the SF position
I would say this team needs defense and 3pt shooting, which is not exactly Vince’s forte.
Would you rather have Bruce Bowen or V.C.? I think for this team we need a little more Bowen and less V.C.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
Sorry cousin
I know you’ve been a big VC fan since you were the size of baby point guard, but he’s to old and would inhibit the development of our own SFs.
If he was 5 years younger, maybe. But at this point I think he’d just spend a bunch of time on the IR and jack up way to many shots when he wasn’t. And by the time our championship window is opening, he’ll be ready to retire
I guess my whole point was...
that by trading for Carter the championship window would be open right now.
Unfortunately
You have aligned yourself with Vince Carter, and must be treated as such.
Not personal, just business.
by begottenson on Oct 21, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think Carter would open anything
For all the reasons listed above, he’s not a good fit. Plus, if you’ve seen him play in the last year or two, it’s pretty clear that either he’s lost all will to win, or lost the ability to make it happen.
He’s just no what he used to be
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
Paul Allen's wallet...
I don’t think Carter would open anything
"It's not a joke -- it's not a game." — B-Rex
For the love of all that's holy!!!
I’m so sick of all of these “trade for…..” posts. We have a great team people!!!!
Exactly
This group has all the components, and has a CHEMISTRY — (total intangible that makes all the difference) …importing an aging superstar will foul that up and hamper the development of all the future stars we already have signed…
It’s like cooking….all the ingredients are in place…just needs to simmer… :-)
Trade proposals at this time are kind of crazy
The Blazers are muffins just about to go into the oven, and a trade is like trying to replace the walnuts and cranberries with blueberries. All the components are blended, there is no turning back, and we just need to let Coach Nate bake them and see how they come out.
Eh, howzit, brah. You get any da kine?
wow
Damn fine analogy
Bring back headbands!
by Sabonis4Ever on Oct 21, 2008 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I totally disagree
We do not have a perfect team and KP is not done making moves. “There is no going back?” I don’t understand… there is nothing stopping us from making a trade.
Boomshakalaka
And there will be moves/trades
It just won’t be the let’s bring in a superstar to bring it all together kinda move…it’ll more be let’s exit some of the non-essentials to free up more $ to pay our essentials and get some extra draft picks at the same time…
The game as a whole is a living dynamic process — but there are no glaring needs…
Will there really be a large difference hitting the playoffs as a 4 seed or 5 seed? (my humble early prediction BTW)
The top teams were so tightly clustered in the West last year that it will make very little difference — it will more be a matter of who we match up against the best…
Frankly, I think some front offices will soil themselves after last night’s display
Common sense is keeping KP from making a move
One starter just came back from injury, an important role player just came back from injury, and another starter is out until 2009. If you bought an old car to restore, would you just haphazardly replaces components or would you evaluate the entire car and come up with a logical plan of restoration?
To stick with my original analogy. The time for changing out ingredients what before the muffins were mixed, not after they are poured into the pan, and about to go into the oven.
Eh, howzit, brah. You get any da kine?
by tominhawaii on Oct 21, 2008 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
The car analogy is better although I agree that now's not the time
It’s still possible to re-arrange, but it’s not the most rational thing to do. The problen you’re alluding to is that KP doesn’t have perfect information. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t make a trade, but it hinders his ability to do so and simultaneously understand the consequences.
But, if you’re car’s not running, you’re going to have to do something. We seem to be at the point of a turbo charged sports car that needs a little aerodynamic trimming before it can win and races. We just haven’t tested the spoiler yet, and although we don’t think it’s going to win this time, once the muffins come out of the oven, the hot air dispursed thereby will make the foil of our spoiler perfect. How’s that for mixing it up?
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
I strongly believe...
… there will be a significant trade or free agent signing between now and our first title. I doubt it will be for someone like Vince but the idea that our team is not going to change is simply not right IMO.
Boomshakalaka
I agree with that
But I think Tom is saying that RIGHT NOW, before we know what we got in Oden and Rudy and Bayless and how it all fits together right now, is a bad time to think of a trade.
It seems like we need better PG play and better perimeter defense. Maybe that problem isn’t really a problem, but to trade to fix that problem right now might be premature. We need to SEE it is a real problem before trying to fix it.
Ya know?
I agree, we’re gonna have some sort of biggish deal before we win a title, but I doubt it’ll disrupt the core— so it’ll be of the Trout, Bayless, Martell, Frye variety. It just isn’t the right time right now since any of those dudes could somehow fit PERFECTLY with the Main Dudes.
We’ll make a deal eventually, but right now all I wanna do is see who fits how and where and when and what.
Mortimer
I totally disagree with Tommy Bahamas...
……………………… blueberry muffins are excellent; only a fool would make muffins with walnuts.
What was the subject again?
"It's not a joke -- it's not a game." — B-Rex
But you have to agree that blueberry muffins are so much better
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
by hobobob on Oct 21, 2008 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree
I only like walnuts in brownies and muffins. I was trying to get a 2 for 1 in there.
Eh, howzit, brah. You get any da kine?
Vincsanity!
Why on earth would we want to trade for Carter?!? I mean, seriously? The guy is halfway down the slide to the end of his career. Just say “NO”
VC is still a great player
But he’s a bad defender and NEEDS SHOTS and to HANDLE THE BALL.
We got enough of that, ya know? Roy needs the ball, Rudy should have the ball, we need to feed LMA and Oden…
We ain’t looking to get a guy who needs something from us, we need people who can GIVE something to everyone else. To complement them, and even compliment them if they just bought a nice hat or made a good shot in the basketball hoop. A premiere ROLE player.
VC is still a star, and still capable of taking over a game and playing “well”. He just ain’t a guy who does it consistently, nor does the things we need. Defense, passing, “fitting in”.
Mortimer
Vince Carter is an above average defender.
Carter’s stats (net points allowed per 100 possessions: -4.0 & net eFG% allowed: -1.6%) support that assessment, too, so it bewilders me whenever folks claim that he’s bad defensively. Carter’s definitely more productive on defense than the overly praised Martell Webster, who’s yet to deliever on his allegedly huge potential.
Total Crap...
The rest of the team last year STUNK. That’s the only reason the for his defensive +/-. Look at the production he gives up at the SF position (17.6 PER). Martell Webster only gave up a 16.6 PER. In fact, even Brandon Roy gave up less production when he played SF (16.5 PER). Vince Carter would be a piss poor SF, defensively and shooting the 3, the two things we need the most.
Since Brandon Roy can defend small forwards, ...
it’d be a lateral move in that regard; there’d be neither an upgrade nor a downgrade on defense.
The fear surrounding Vince Carter’s substandard three-point shooting is a very valid point, though.
I think its been pretty well documented
that the less Brandon HAS to defend 1’s and 3’s, the better we’re going to be in the end. Vince Carter is a bad overall fit, and I think you’re pretty aware of that. The salary isn’t a match, his age isn’t a match, his game isn’t a match. If it were a pure salary dump for Raef I’d even have a pretty hard time doing it. Our starting SF shouldn’t have a game centered even in the slightest regard about handling the ball. That is the whole reason why everyone is having such a problem with Travis Outlaw recently. We need guys that can hit wide open shots and be outstanding defenders. Any skills after that would be a pure bonus (though not necessary). And anyone without both the defense and the long range shooting shouldn’t be considered a long term possibility.
Also, Vince Carter ...
is a superior ball-handler, playmaker, and distributor to Martell Webster; that’s not even up for debate.
He is better than Martell
But I differ on whether he’s a good fit.
And I’ll trust my eyes when I see he is a bad, un-motivated defender, over a stat that doesn’t take actual defense into account.
Standing reach, points allowed per possession, can help explain why someone is a good defender, but do not make a bad defender a good defender on their own merits.
I would never say VC ain’t a very talented, still very good player. He’s a star, and should be a star for a middling team, and not a 20 million dollar role player. I don’t think any of us want VC to be our focus of the offense, and that is the only way to use VC. Not as a spot up shooter, definitely not as a defender, and you don’t negate what Roy does by putting the ball in VC’s hands to make him effective.
He just doesn’t seem like a good fit, and anyone who completely and totally and OBVIOUSLY gives up mid-game so often during his career is not a good fit for this team.
Watching VC, he is a lazy defender. You could show me a stat that says no one has ever scored against VC in one on one coverage ever in the history of space and time and I’ll still say he is a bad defender, because my eyes tell me he doesn’t give a dang about defense.
Luckily for me I don’t THINK that stat exists, but if it does I am screwed!!!
Mortimer
Keep VC away from here.
Maybe the 1996 version of him. But not the turn of the century VC.
My favorite teams are the Blazers and any team that is playing the Lakers.
Good without. Not good with.
Look at New Jersey before they had Vince Carter? Kidd, Kittles, KMart, RJ. Good team, 2 finals appearances. Now they have Vince and have been nowhere near. We are a good team without him. We won’t be good with him. Getting him is a step in the WRONG direction!
by CanadianBlazerfan on Oct 22, 2008 4:09 PM PDT reply actions
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