Off Topic: Derek Mayomac's Amazing Ordeal (With Poll)
Hey friends.
I suspect quite a few of you read the article in the Oregonian (or O-Live) about Derek Mayomac, the young man who broke his ankle while descending Mt. Adams and was missing for five days in the wilderness. If you want to read the article, the link is here:
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/missing_climber_found_alive_on.html
For those of you who haven't read the article yet, Derek was found and rescued a couple days ago by a tracking dog and a search & rescue team. (The dog's name is Trulee, for all you dog lovers.) When they found him, Derek was in the process of crawling down the mountain with his broken ankle dragging behind him. He did not have a bivouac kit or anything like that, so he just huddled between rocks at night. He drank water from streams and ate centipedes to keep up his strength. The dude must have been in remarkably good shape.
Mt. Adams is 12,277 feet high. Derek fell and broke his ankle at about 11,600 feet, as he was returning down off the mountain. When they found him he was at about 6100 feet. Most of the way down the mountain he crawled. When his knees became too raw and sore he turned around and scooted backwards on his butt.
If you read the article on O-Live you'll find about 40 comments from readers at the end. Some of the commenters raise an interesting point, which brings us to the subject of today's poll. It seems a few people are unhappy about taxpayer dollars being used to subsidize search & rescue teams. (See, for example, the comments of Coaststeve at the end of the O-Live article.) I guess helicopter rescues are pretty expensive.
People who complain about the use of taxpayer dollars to rescue lost or injured mountain climbers argue that a person who willfully engages in risky behavior without being properly equipped should not be bailed out at taxpayer expense. I am an avid outdoorsman myself, and frankly I am glad that county and state governments pay for search and rescue operations. But I became curious after reading some of the comments at the end of the O-Live article. So I decided to include a little poll with this fanpost to see how many people nowadays believe that hikers (or hunters/mushroom pickers/etc.) should be left to fend for themselves when they have an accident or get lost.
5 recs |
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comments
Comments
Those against using tax dollars to rescue people
will change their mind when someone they know gets caught in a bad situation. There are far more frivolous wastes of tax dollars than SAVING LIVES. We spend money to kill people, why not spend money to save people.
"It was halfway through the fourth quarter of an exhibition game, a 30 point blowout, and I absolutely did not want it to end. Time: move slower so this moment stretches.
Dunk Parade.
Forever."
-Ben
"...our second unit is probably going to be a little better than your second unit…and by "probably going to be a little better than" I mean "is going to crush like a dump truck running over an empty beer can""
"YOU MOVE NOW! GREG DUNK BIG!"
-Dave
by Magnum on Oct 18, 2008 6:57 PM PDT 0 recs
Add a third option to the poll...and a 4th...and 5th...6th
That would really piss off douglast.
Anyway, yes tax dollars should be used to rescue people no matter the circumstances. It’s kind of the same thing as firemen rescueing a family from a burning house.
However, when people knowingly put themselves in a situation that could result in this kind of situation, and they are not properly prepared for it (no cell phone, sat phone, locator, detailed route map on file with family or Forest Service, etc.) then they should have to reimburse the money spent on them.
I am not so callous as to say leave them out there, but there should be consequences for the poor decisions that were made along the way.
by BlazerHomer on Oct 18, 2008 8:14 PM PDT 0 recs
maybe they could have hiker's insurance
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
by prezofdeath on
Oct 18, 2008 8:33 PM PDT
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does auto insuance cover damages to roads?
or the cost of cleanup and related matters? I honestly don’t know. That seems like something the gov’t might just have to pay for. Drivers willfully place themselves in dangerous situations, especially in southern california, should we have to pay for their mistakes? It doesn’t even have to be a case of stupidity or lack of respect for the situation (climbers sometimes get caught in bad storms even if they are prepared, a good driver can be the ‘victim’ of a poor driver, etc).
And what about people who willfully have sex without the means of raising that child or paying for a delivery? Should I have to pay for state run programs to help those people?
Does anytime someone engages in an act that could cost taxpayers money fall under this sort of consideration?
"It was halfway through the fourth quarter of an exhibition game, a 30 point blowout, and I absolutely did not want it to end. Time: move slower so this moment stretches.
Dunk Parade.
Forever."
-Ben
"...our second unit is probably going to be a little better than your second unit…and by "probably going to be a little better than" I mean "is going to crush like a dump truck running over an empty beer can""
"YOU MOVE NOW! GREG DUNK BIG!"
-Dave
by Magnum on
Oct 18, 2008 9:12 PM PDT
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I agree. I drove for year's without insurance (stupidist thing to do now that I think about it)
Then I “bumped” my sisters car, and woooooo weeeeee…. do I ever appriciate insurance now.
Manditory licences for making babies!!! install sperm killers on all non married males. little zapper things that “zap” you when you have them bad thoughts!! ;) cheating would become a thing of the past!!! born to wedlock children would become scarce, and little old ladies could get back to giving the stink eye to a 24 year old mother, opposed to a 14 year old mother…. the world we live in is grand!!!!
The faith (and I'm a guy) perverts. :)
by faith on
Oct 19, 2008 5:27 AM PDT
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And don't hike drunk!
My friend and I hiked eight miles into the Kalmiopsis a few years ago. We set up camp, built a fire, and pulled out the bottle of whiskey. By the time the sun was down, we were staggering drunk. Somehow we got the wild notion to go night fishing in the river. Before we made it to the river, my friend walked off the trail and tumbled about thirty feet from the edge to the rocks. He broke an arm, two ribs, and his leg had a compound fracture – yes, the bone was protruding.
It was a sobering experience. There is no cellphone reception out there. And it was just me and him. I splinted and bandaged his leg and arm as best I could. Then I made a travois out of my sleeping bag and two wooden poles. I dragged him the eight miles back to the truck. It took me all night and part of the morning to do it. One of the most miserable and frightening times of my life.
I know my comment has nothing to do with Search and Rescue, but it has everything to do with consequences of stupidity. As a result of a little bottle-tipping and reckless foolhardiness, my friend suffered, and believe me, I suffered as well. We also lost most of our camping and fishing gear.
I support the need for Search and Rescue, as there will always be idiots in need of rescue somewhere. That night I would have given anything and everything I owned for a helicopter rescue. If my friend had been alone with those injuries, he might not have lived. If you’re going to climb up a 12,000+ foot mountain, you shouldn’t do it alone.
"...and that loud noise you hear coming is the Portland Trailblazers." - Charles Barkley
by RebelRogue on
Oct 19, 2008 2:21 AM PDT
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reading this makes me reconsider my opinion down there VVVV ....mmmm,
You are a good friend to have around. :)
The faith (and I'm a guy) perverts. :)
by faith on
Oct 19, 2008 5:30 AM PDT
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It depends
Republican hikers should be left to fend for themselves, since the GOP is all about saving taxpayers money. Democrats, on the other hand, should have the full cooperation of all local, state and federal resources.
(tongue removed from cheek)
Palin drone: a statement that is equally nonsensical whether uttered or written forward or backward.
by CatMan2 on Oct 18, 2008 9:06 PM PDT 0 recs
there could be a waiver form
Go down to some gov’t office and say that you don’t want to be saved at taxpayers expense. So, if you are reported missing on a mountain the gov’t has a legal document that says they don’t have to rescue you. Same thing for fires too
"It was halfway through the fourth quarter of an exhibition game, a 30 point blowout, and I absolutely did not want it to end. Time: move slower so this moment stretches.
Dunk Parade.
Forever."
-Ben
"...our second unit is probably going to be a little better than your second unit…and by "probably going to be a little better than" I mean "is going to crush like a dump truck running over an empty beer can""
"YOU MOVE NOW! GREG DUNK BIG!"
-Dave
by Magnum on
Oct 18, 2008 9:14 PM PDT
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What about Libertarians?
I suppose they’d be even more screwed than the Republicans if your rules were in place, since they are total purists when it comes to eliminating govt services. I pity the poor Libertarian who gets lost in the woods under your rules! Gonna have to be one rugged dude with some serious boy scout skills.
The idea of supranational legality carries forward some of the best principles of Nuremberg – principles historically devalued by having been subordinated to Western-power interests. Nuremberg, after all, was supposed to be a triumph of higher morality over sheer military force, a great leap forward in the pursuit of global justice. Opening the tribunal, chief prosecutor Robert Jackson (an American) said "the privilege of opening the first trial in history for crimes against the peace of the world imposes a grave responsibility. The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored because it cannot survive their being repeated." To this Jackson prophetically added: "And let me make clear that while the law if first applied against German aggressors, the law includes, and if it is to serve a useful purpose, it must condemn aggression by any other nation, including those which sit here now in judgment."
by bilingual octopus on
Oct 18, 2008 10:08 PM PDT
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Wowzers
162 word sig. I hereby deem you the official signature magistrate.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
by prezofdeath on
Oct 18, 2008 10:10 PM PDT
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yeah that's from a cool article I just read
The article explores the possibility of prosecuting bu$h and a hunch of other people for crimes of military aggression. The author says that Bugliosi’s approach is wrong and the only way to prosecute bu$h is through a foreign or international tribunal.
The idea of supranational legality carries forward some of the best principles of Nuremberg – principles historically devalued by having been subordinated to Western-power interests. Nuremberg, after all, was supposed to be a triumph of higher morality over sheer military force, a great leap forward in the pursuit of global justice. Opening the tribunal, chief prosecutor Robert Jackson (an American) said "the privilege of opening the first trial in history for crimes against the peace of the world imposes a grave responsibility. The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored because it cannot survive their being repeated." To this Jackson prophetically added: "And let me make clear that while the law if first applied against German aggressors, the law includes, and if it is to serve a useful purpose, it must condemn aggression by any other nation, including those which sit here now in judgment."
by bilingual octopus on
Oct 18, 2008 10:17 PM PDT
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A sitting president on trial for War Crimes
that would be something.
City upon the hill indeed
"It was halfway through the fourth quarter of an exhibition game, a 30 point blowout, and I absolutely did not want it to end. Time: move slower so this moment stretches.
Dunk Parade.
Forever."
-Ben
"...our second unit is probably going to be a little better than your second unit…and by "probably going to be a little better than" I mean "is going to crush like a dump truck running over an empty beer can""
"YOU MOVE NOW! GREG DUNK BIG!"
-Dave
by Magnum on
Oct 18, 2008 10:21 PM PDT
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John Winthrop is probably rolling over in his grave at what we've become.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
by prezofdeath on
Oct 18, 2008 10:23 PM PDT
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+1
if you knew the name without looking it up
but I’m not so sure if a Puritan leader in 16— something or other would be that progressive. He’d probably like the idea of a Christian leader with far reaching executive powers conducting a war on another continent for resources. Sounds very 17th century.
"It was halfway through the fourth quarter of an exhibition game, a 30 point blowout, and I absolutely did not want it to end. Time: move slower so this moment stretches.
Dunk Parade.
Forever."
-Ben
"...our second unit is probably going to be a little better than your second unit…and by "probably going to be a little better than" I mean "is going to crush like a dump truck running over an empty beer can""
"YOU MOVE NOW! GREG DUNK BIG!"
-Dave
by Magnum on
Oct 18, 2008 10:30 PM PDT
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Winthrop said
“Liberty is the proper end and object of authority, and cannot subsist without it; and it is liberty to that which is good, just, and honest”
Not sure if anything our government does is good, just, or honest.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
by prezofdeath on
Oct 18, 2008 10:38 PM PDT
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well I can't really argue with that
So I’ll provide some anecdotal evidence. We often look at history through rose colored glasses, so while Winthrop might preach about liberty, he might not apply it in all cases. For example, the Declaration of Independence being signed by slave holders. And I’m willing to bet that there are intelligent progressive soundbites from Bush but those wouldn’t match some of his actions.
But since I’m just making conjectures, I’ve really got nothing.
"It was halfway through the fourth quarter of an exhibition game, a 30 point blowout, and I absolutely did not want it to end. Time: move slower so this moment stretches.
Dunk Parade.
Forever."
-Ben
"...our second unit is probably going to be a little better than your second unit…and by "probably going to be a little better than" I mean "is going to crush like a dump truck running over an empty beer can""
"YOU MOVE NOW! GREG DUNK BIG!"
-Dave
by Magnum on
Oct 18, 2008 10:58 PM PDT
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I don't contend otherwise
In reality, we’re all pretty hypocritical, and I’m sure John Winthrop was in his own right, at least to some degree.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
by prezofdeath on
Oct 18, 2008 11:06 PM PDT
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hmmm....interesting
probably won’t happen, but interesting nonetheless.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
by prezofdeath on
Oct 18, 2008 10:21 PM PDT
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Could happen anytime within the lifetimes of the defendants
Vincent Bugliosi and the others who are looking into the issue of prosecuting bu$h have all assumed it will NOT happen while bu$h is still sitting in the White House. It will be more like someone will have to tell George, “Hey buddy, you’d better not travel to any of those European countries where they believe in stuff like international law, because it just may turn out to be a one-way trip, like what almost happened to Pinochet a few years ago when he traveled to Britain.”
The idea of supranational legality carries forward some of the best principles of Nuremberg – principles historically devalued by having been subordinated to Western-power interests. Nuremberg, after all, was supposed to be a triumph of higher morality over sheer military force, a great leap forward in the pursuit of global justice. Opening the tribunal, chief prosecutor Robert Jackson (an American) said "the privilege of opening the first trial in history for crimes against the peace of the world imposes a grave responsibility. The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored because it cannot survive their being repeated." To this Jackson prophetically added: "And let me make clear that while the law if first applied against German aggressors, the law includes, and if it is to serve a useful purpose, it must condemn aggression by any other nation, including those which sit here now in judgment."
by bilingual octopus on
Oct 19, 2008 9:52 AM PDT
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Too hard to draw the line
Should we refuse to cover the health care of smokers? Obese people? Some argue yes, but generally it doesn’t work that way.
My view is that Americans can’t on the one hand pride themselves on the individualistic risk taking spirit that “makes this country great” and at the same time get all judgmental whenever something bad happens as a result.
by Section323 on Oct 18, 2008 10:05 PM PDT 0 recs
PS
I love the commenter over on O-live who’s like, what a wuss, why didn’t he drag himself down the mountain faster with no food and a broken ankle. Geez, people.
by Section323 on
Oct 18, 2008 10:06 PM PDT
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GEEEEEEZZZZZ LOUISE!!!
I am in the minority…but I enjoy a good challange, what I mean is I wouldn’t be going out in to the forest, climbing a mountain, or driving to portland without a good back up plan…
but the part about being rescued…kinda defeats the whole purpose of going imo….if there isn’t a chance for a crisis…is it really all that fun?
I’m a firm beliver in “if ya can’t do it yourself then you shouldn’t be doing it”.
But I think a compramise could be met!!! if the rescuers were military personel on “training” then I think I could swallow footing the bill with the tax monies that I donate to the gov. but if your gonna go hiking BE PREPARED!!!
and about the story….the guy was one day away from not needing the rescue….so….
how much money did we waste looking for him? (using the “we” term loosely)
The faith (and I'm a guy) perverts. :)
by faith on Oct 19, 2008 5:22 AM PDT 0 recs
I agree with BlazerHomer
But his reply section got pretty off topic, so I’ll put it down here.
I think it is the responsibility of government to help it’s citizens when they need it. However, I think those citizens should be expected to pay directly for those services, especially if they were at fault. Perhaps a court system to determine the method and amount of payment. (If the national guard is mobilized helicopters and all, there’s no way 1-2 people can pay for it all) The idea being, to hold people responsible for their actions, without crippling their ability to be productive members of society.
by Gelvalst on Oct 19, 2008 9:53 AM PDT 0 recs
this won't work
do you really want everything doled out on an “as you go” basis? Roads, medical care, schools? Most of us would have to sit around doing nothing most of the time, but we’d have to eat really well and exercise a lot while doing nothing.
by Section323 on
Oct 19, 2008 10:46 AM PDT
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The cost of one helicoptr flight would break most people, however
I do like the idea of bumping up user fees a bit and pooling them to cover the cost of the occasional rescue.
by raoulduke on
Oct 20, 2008 1:25 PM PDT
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Sounds a bit like Joe Simpson's "Touching the void"
A book I can highly recommend. The film is also good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Simpson_(mountaineer)
Odenied: If you're given lemmings—make lemming-ade (Bow4Meow)
by Norsktroll on Oct 19, 2008 11:56 AM PDT 0 recs
As an longtime experienced backpacker
I do appreciate that search and rescue operations exist. I think Derek made a poor decision in doing the climb without a buddy. I’ve backpacked many times solo, but the danger quotent in mountain climbing is much much higher. I’m glad he was experienced and knowledgable – it saved his life for sure.
I’ve been turned around / lost a few times and I can tell you that the panic fight or flight reflex is amazingly hard to resist :) It must take a strong person to make it 5 days in that condition just mentally. My other story is of going on a week long backbacking trip with my wife and having her slip and break her wrist. She could still walk out – I shudder to think how difficult it would have been with a more serious injury.
But back to to search and rescue, even though anybody going in the wilderness should be very knowledgble with survival skills there are many circumstances where bad luck just happens to good people. I’m thinking specifically of last year when that family got lost in southern Oregon driving in a snowstorm. The mistake was thinking they could take a shortcut in a maze of logging roads and the father paid for it with his life. An honest mistake, but I can’t see how anyone could argue that they didn’t deserve a rescue effort because they weren’t prepared.
by moko on Oct 20, 2008 12:09 PM PDT 0 recs
I'm all for saving the guy
But he should get a bill. Someone needs life saving surgery and they’re on their own. Some guy is irresponsible and hikes alone and it costs the tax payers a lot of money to rescue him.
Why can’t taxpayers rescue homeless mothers, battered women, or kids with cancer? I know the answer. So no need to get political on me. Helicopters and climbing mountains are cool, all that other stuff is not.
Eh, howzit, brah. You get any da kine?
by tominhawaii on Oct 20, 2008 1:44 PM PDT 0 recs
Why not have both paid?
Oh I know, there are wars to wage and banks to bail out.
Odenied: If you're given lemmings—make lemming-ade (Bow4Meow)
by Norsktroll on
Oct 20, 2008 3:01 PM PDT
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Huh?
Maybe taxpayers don’t pay for these things in Hawaii, but here it’s a little different…
domestic violence shelters in Oregon
Each of those shelters I guarantee you is supported in part by local taxes and government grants
OHSU children’s cancer research
Children’s cancer research done at the State hospital
You’re not really gonna argue that government should define stupidity in billing people in need? Who decides whether a battered woman get should get a shelter bill for making a stupid choice of a boyfriend?
by moko on
Oct 20, 2008 4:37 PM PDT
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Nah
I really don’t care. I was just being contradictory.
Eh, howzit, brah. You get any da kine?
by tominhawaii on
Oct 20, 2008 4:42 PM PDT
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