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Uh-oh. Jaynes n Baldy (Canzano) agree on something, in speculative theory

That the rash of injuries is related to lack of downtime and stiff compitition for roles on the team. I wonder about this. I was an athlete in my younger days. I played some organized ball at something well above pick up games, at 3 sports, starting and logging minutes at all three. I was never seriously injured playing sports. In fact I relate to Oden in that one summer I had a motorcycle accident and my hand got chewed up a little. I learned to shoot and handle a bball, particularly free throws at a 70% clip that summer with my off hand. My experience may lend to a personal blind spot. I am not very sympathetic to nagging injuries from organized sports. I have never been a coach at an advanced level either. Please go read Dwight Jaynes and John Canzano. I'm on an iPhone with no cut and paste so if someone would link in the commend that would be cool. Then please discuss. Those two often take opposite sides. That they are saying the same thing, about a subject that is becoming dear toe, has me wondering. Thanks.

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I apologize for the typos.

I’m close to ditching the iPhone. If it had a slide out hard keyboard I’d really love this thing. . .

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 11, 2008 8:06 AM PDT   0 recs

Links

Canzano
Jaynes

not sure which Jaynes entry you were referring to.

by Jumbo on Oct 11, 2008 12:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Jaynes comment is last paragraph of the GSW game recap

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 11, 2008 6:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm shocked... shocked!!

Shocked beyond measure to hear that Canzano—that bastion of truth and justice—is looking for areas of personnel on whom to heap criticism and blame. So unlike him.

You could airlift that guy into Valhalla and he would abuse the viking warriors there for being arrogant, the daily battles for being self-aggrandizing, champion the lesser warriors shut out of Valhalla for being deserving of equal time and money and immortality, and probably impugn the cooks serving the banquets as well.

That guy and his yellow press, sensationalistic garbage would fault Santa Clause if he could figure out a way to do it.

I’m with you: injuries are chancy things. And in fact, I feel there is less competition this training camp than prior ones. There is only one position up for grabs where as last year I think there were three or four. Oden and Roy have been specifically held out of practices and games Frye and Blake didn’t do anything more all summer than train. Even on its face, this argument is just ridiculous. It is self-serving, Canzano garbage.

Buck Williams for the hall of fame

by Phizbin on Oct 11, 2008 8:10 AM PDT   0 recs

I will stipulate

that I am not a Canzano fan at all. For the elequant reasons you state. I’m more from the Jaynes era but he’s probably got 15 years on me.

Thanks for your comment.

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 11, 2008 8:30 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Then why are the Olympic players not all hurt?

Out of the US team, I think only Boozer has a little hamstring problem like Blake. Even Yao is not really more hurt than before the games. Nowitzki is playing year-round for many seasons. Rudy would be perfectly healthy if he had not stepped on Sergio’s foot. Etc.

If you take it a little lighter and plan for enough rest in between games and workouts, it’s not detrimental to your health to keep training hard over the off-season. You might peak a little early in the season, but that’s what we need this year with our front-loaded schedule to even make the playoffs.

Odenied: If you're given lemmings—make lemming-ade (Bow4Meow)

by Norsktroll on Oct 11, 2008 8:36 AM PDT   0 recs

Excellent point!

shut down USA FIBA bball. Kobe might get hurt! Thank you.

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 11, 2008 8:51 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No one on team USA is, that I am aware of

minus kobe’s crooked finger ( I got one of those)

Do we shut down FIBA for the sake of the pros? This is sport. Injury is part of the game, IMHO.

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 11, 2008 9:58 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Soft

Odenied: If you're given lemmings—make lemming-ade (Bow4Meow)

by Norsktroll on Oct 11, 2008 10:30 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And disgruntled that they can

Odenied: If you're given lemmings—make lemming-ade (Bow4Meow)

by Norsktroll on Oct 11, 2008 10:31 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Darius Miles never worked out on the offseason

How did his knee get so messed up?

Players get hurt, it could stand to reason that the more you play as a player, the more likely it is you could suffer an injury. That doesn’t mean you stop working hard to improve because you risk being injured MAYBE. That’s loser talk!

It’s not WORKING HARD = GONNA GET HURT, it’s WORKING HARD = MAKES YOU A BETTER PLAYER (and injuries can happen at anytime what can ya do).

You don’t work so hard you hurt your body, but I don’t think any of our guys were doing that. Them working out over the summer did not get them hurt; unfortunate circumstances got them hurt.

We do not want guys who do not work to improve in the offseason. We want them to rest and be sensible with their work, but it isn’t something to worry about. This is rich peoples worries!

Mortimer

by Mortimer on Oct 11, 2008 8:53 AM PDT   0 recs

Oh, God, this is so against the grain!

Am I actually about to side with Canzano vs Mortimer?? Say it ain’t so!

But seriously, I’ve been noticing a pattern: those Blazers who have worked the hardest during the offseason—Roy, Frye, Blake, & Martell—going down early with wear & tear injuries. The Frye and Martell injuries in particular—bone spurs & stress fracture—are concerning. You normally just don’t see those types of injuries popping up during the pre-season.

Even before the Martell injury, I recall someone asking KP if he had any concern that some Blazers might be working TOO hard during the off-season. He didn’t poo-poo the suggestion, but said that at that point the team’s concern wasn’t sufficient to warrant a change in approach. But my hunch is that, at the end of this season, the team might tell its dedicated young players to work hard but also to listen a little closer to what their bodies are telling them. “No pain, no gain” isn’t always the best credo.

"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla

by hurryup09 on Oct 11, 2008 9:08 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Whew!

I just actually read the Canzano piece, and was relieved to discover that I don’t agree with him after all. His contention is that the Blazers are wearing down because they’re competing against each other too hard in practice. Nonsense.

If there’s an issue, it’s the non-stop, all-out off-season workouts some of the guys are putting themselves through. That’s what can lead to wear & tear injuries so early in the year.

"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla

by hurryup09 on Oct 11, 2008 9:26 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Your comment about listening to what their bodies are telling them

may be closer to the real reason for some of these injuries. I know that if I have a slightly strained neck or back muscle, for example, and I don’t take it easy, it can turn into a more serious muscle pull. I don’t know if Blake or Martell were ignoring pain in the hamstring and foot, respectively, but if they were, their injuries might have been less serious if they had rested them or brought them to a doctor’s or trainer’s attention sooner. Players have to know when something is truly minor or needs to be handled carefully. That’s hard to do sometimes, when you’re competing for a roster spot or minutes.

"Personally, I'd rather give an elephant a prostate exam on Chili Day." --Dave on rooting for the Lakers or Celtics

by MiledAnimal on Oct 11, 2008 10:46 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I get the impression that pro athletes try to "play through the pain" a lot.

That could explain some injury problems but probably not the majority of them.

by royroty on Oct 12, 2008 8:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

for the record

the most strenous activity I ever personally observed was him hanging at safari with his cap low on his head hoping zach or darius would show up. Not joking.

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 11, 2008 9:03 AM PDT   0 recs

that be baldy I speak of

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 11, 2008 9:04 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

On the "Up Side"

Jay Allen reported on the Hocks Pre-Game broadcast, that Chan & Blakey were expected to be running with the Team, during practice next week.

"You're really making me feel good about myself, little man," says Oden as he starts dancing after scoring a goal. "You better come harder than that."

by BlueBooYay on Oct 11, 2008 9:21 AM PDT   0 recs

Just Silly

Mr. Magoo and Chicken Little are just making comments to stir up controversy. I don’t have the link but remember Frye saying that the doctors were surprised that he wasn’t playing with pain LAST YEAR. So training hard this summer had nothing to do with his injury. Blake pulled a hamstring, he’s more likely to hurt that if he did nothing all summer, because it wouldn’t be as flexible. Martell’s injury is the only one that could be attributed to overworking and actually seems like it is an injury the is body is prone to developing.

Blazers Edge has an alarmist vision and a poet's heart.

by tominhawaii on Oct 11, 2008 9:27 AM PDT   0 recs

Yay! I like you.

but not in “that” way. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 11, 2008 10:02 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I like him in "that" way

I won’t say what my definition of “that” means but I assure you it eats away at me at night.

GOOD OL’ MORTY

by Mortimer on Oct 11, 2008 10:09 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I noticed that

that why I not stepping all over yo game.
I like you both.
You all a cute couple
;-)

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 11, 2008 11:24 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I didn't read either of the articles, but read your comments.

and I have an opinion!

Navy seals. imagine what kind of unit they’d be if they quit practicing for let’s say 3 months of the year.

kinda the same thing. If you want the best tip top straight out of the shop preformance in your car. You constantly maintain it.

and last but not least. what don’t kill you makes you stronger. I’ve found this rule to alway’s hold true.

(and what is this, everytime I comment on a thread, someone else’s little black box show’s up over there > I’m feeling followed. or maybe I’m the follower..mmmm)

The faith (and I'm a guy) perverts. :)

by faith on Oct 11, 2008 9:39 AM PDT   0 recs

Train Hard Win Easy

Canzano once again proves he’s another armchair warrior who doesn’t understand what is needed to excel at the professional level.

If it really was that easy John, people like you would be doing it instead of sitting on the sidelines writing about it.

by Sexual Tyrannosaurus on Oct 11, 2008 12:58 PM PDT   0 recs

I think there may be a little substance...

Channing, Martell, and Roy were all the hardest workers of the offseason and are also the ones who have the big injuries. Coincidence? Maybe. Yet most of Roy’s work was cycling (i.e. non-contact), wasn’t it?

--

by CaptainSexyJacob on Oct 11, 2008 8:32 PM PDT   0 recs

Frye's bone spurs are old according to the disclosed medical info.

Martell has history of foot issues every few years.

I’m sorry I don’t buy the hand wringing. Let’s just give everyone equal playing time so there is no compitition for roles (snark).

The Blazers mgmt seems to be taking care of business with regard to their assets bodies. Injuries just plain happen. Some athletes are more prone than others. … If I was competing for a role on the team, I would not be very receptive to anyone telling me I couldn’t work on my game or conditioning in the off season . Not at all.

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 11, 2008 8:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh. And tell me I couldn't compete

for a spot on team USA because I might get hurt. No. Way.

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 11, 2008 8:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Larry Bird

once said “everyday your not getting better your getting worse” I’ll stick with the greats who all seem to have that go hard all off season thirst for the game.

by runanjum on Oct 11, 2008 11:27 PM PDT   1 recs

Ditto on runanjum

What else is there to say. The greats have always had a constant desire to improve. Guys like the Bird didn’t just work out in the off-season, they put in more hours during the season as well. Sure, if one guy lands on a knee 1,000 times, and the other only 500, I imagine you could make the case that the knee gets more wear and tear, but you could also make the case that it gets stronger.

by Eben Calder on Oct 12, 2008 5:13 AM PDT   0 recs

Pace, Youth, RFA Year Contracts, and Depth

There are a number of more plausible hypotheses than hard practice to account for the spate of injuries.

First, many of the analysts noted that the Blazers overachieved in part last season because they played like an old, not a young team. They did not take unwarranted risks last season, and they played at a pace that tends to preserve bodies. This year the Blazers are unquestioningly pushing the pace of the game much harder. A more up-tempo game is likely to lead to more injuries than last season’s more conservative pace.

Second, aside from Blake’s hamstring, all of the injured are young. They may not really understand their physical limits as well as more experienced players. And even Blake hurt himself trying to do things he has never been able to do throughout his entire career.

Third, three of the Blazers’ four players who will be restricted free agents at the end of the season are precisely the three of the four guys with the most serious injuries. Every day throughout the informal practices in September we heard rumors and reports that it was Frye, no Blake, no Webster, no Aldridge that had revolutionized his game the most over the summer. Aside from Diogu, the guys who are going to be RFAs have worked the hardest and done the most to make a big impression before their opportunity for a payday. And Diogu is coming off an injured year, so may be tentative in hopes of not reinjurying himself.

Finally, anyone who is familiar with our roster knew this was going to be one ultra-competitive season, and the guys have been pushing themselves all the harder just to make sure they get some playing time.

All of these possibilities ring truer for me than their theories about how strenuous Nate’s practices might be.

by jaywalker on Oct 12, 2008 1:32 PM PDT   0 recs

I still don't buy it

Frye’s spurs are previous to this season, along with Roy’s knees. Someone reported on here that Martell had a stress fracture in his AAU days. Blake’s hamstring is a common enough injury. Rudy stepped on Sergio’s foot.

Nate’s practices may be hard. But no one has shown that A = B.

Are Houston’s perennial injury issues due to hard practices?

The factors are random. The common factor is we’re talking professional sports.

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 12, 2008 2:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

As I wrote above, the "hard practice" idea is silly

Training camp and the exhibition season is all about working hard. But spending one’s OFFSEASON in non-stop, joint-pounding workouts is a prescription for trouble. That’s what will tend to cause young athetes in peak shape to go down with wear & tear injuries before the season even starts. Moderation in all things…

Someone mentioned Larry Bird as an example of an NBA player who worked year round to improve his game. But Bird wasn’t abusing his body 12 months a year. During the offseason, he’d work on gaining a new skill—e.g., shooting with his left hand. That’s not the same as the type of intensive workouts Roy, Blake, Martell, & Frye have been subjecting their bodies to. There’s such a thing as too much of a good thing.

Great athletes know how to listen to their bodies and pace themselves. It’s all about peaking in the playoffs, not a month before the season begins.

"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla

by hurryup09 on Oct 12, 2008 10:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

OK. There is some wisdom or kernal of truthwhat you say in a general fashion.

But the speculation was / is that the practice sessions and off season work contributed to the current injury roster for the Blazers specifically.

I see absolutely no hard evidence of this. It is speculation. It’s trying to assign a cause to a trend that can as easily be assigned as random, and well within the noise statistically. So…I find columnists that publish " what if"? colums about trends that are likely random, and stretching to assign cause, and by extension finding fault with "the system, mildly irritating.

Question to you: Should NBA players (or by extension any professional b-ball players) play FIBA basketball for their respective country’s national teams? Gianobli’s hurt, and OMG, Kobe or LeBron could have been! (Admitted snark).

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 12, 2008 11:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

depends who you ask

I doubt there’s a GM in the NBA who really, truly wants his players playing FIBA hoops in the offseason. But it’s not politically correct for them to complain. Unpatriotic & all.

"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla

by hurryup09 on Oct 13, 2008 1:40 PM PDT   0 recs

Hey hurryup09

I actually have a very detaled response (answer) to the question I asked: What’s to be done about FIBA ball?

It is fairly detailed and will take some time for me to write, which I don’t have at the moment, but should within the next day or two.

If your still with me, since this thread hw now dropped to page 2 of the archived Fanposts, check back if you want if your interested in an idea for FIBA basketball vs. protecting players from injury. The idea is not toally mine, so I stipulate that I am not taking credit for it. But I beleive it is an interesting idea. I actually do see merit at “protecting” a certain category of NBA players from themselves in running themselves ragged playing FIBA ball.

Anyway up to you if you want to continue. Thanks for the discussion. I find it interesting. I mean it to be civil. I apologize if I the a little crotchity at times.

the Spanish contributors on this board are hellah cool

by G_dubs on Oct 14, 2008 3:32 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

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