Let's Talk...

by Dave on Jan 3, 2008 11:58 PM PST in News

We've been talking a little about the ins and outs of fandom this week, and this will pretty much be the close of the subject, but I wanted to highlight something that is a case in point as to what I'm talking about and why I think these discussions are valuable.

I was catching up on my reading with the good folks at the O-Live Blazers Blog when I came across their link to this HoopsVibe.com article written by Christopher Sells.

I won't recap the whole article here. Basically Christopher's point was that, having only seen the Blazer play a few times, he thinks Blazers have great talent, a great coach, and a great future ahead of them but he doesn't think they'll make the playoffs this year because:

--The Western Conference is tough
--Their closest competitors, Houston, Golden State, and Utah, all have experience doing this playoff-run thing
--The Blazers have been hot and cold
--A lot of the streak happened at home and the Blazers have some extended road stretches coming up

He then said he'd probably be labeled a "Blazers hater" for saying these things.

There were 18 responses to his article. I'd like to reprint some of them here for you:

You are foolish. Weak arguments. You actually do this for money? Stick to messsage boards and do more research when you write off a team.. amateur.

You state that you've "only seen the Blazers play 2 or 3 times this year".... then you state that "I haven't been able to sit down and form an opinion about the team or judge its current play." .... and then you proceed to write an article expressing your opinion and making judgments about the blazers? How stupid is that? How stupid do you think we are?

Man coming from a guy who has only seen 2 or 3 games, please. Keep your negative BS out. You and a few other are hating the blazers, never give them credit, what else is new that will never change.

...quit writing about teams you don't really know about. Do us all a favor and go watch a game before you write about topics you admit you don't know about. How did you get this job?

Granted I've selected the most offensive of the comments. These mostly came first and I think some fans saw those and decided to represent a little better. But still reading this stuff...which is hardly uncommon around the `net...makes me wonder:

Is this who we really are? Is this what being a Blazer fan means?

Please tell me it's not, because it's just depressing.

My thoughts:

--If you took the name "Blazers" out of the equation, substituted in "Hawks" or something, put them in the exact same situation, and then asked us who we thought would make the playoffs we'd say the same thing Christopher has. "We like the team, but the success is new and the competition is tough and proven. I need to see more before I believe they'll make it." People are yelling at the guy for saying the same things they, themselves would say!

--We complain endlessly about how national people don't write enough or pay enough attention to the Blazers. How in the world do you expect people to write about the team if they can't offer an honest opinion without people insulting them, yelling at them, and accusing them wildly?

--This guy called his shot. He knew he'd be accused of being a "hater". That means we have a rep, at least where he is from. How the heck did we allow that to happen? And where in the world did we learn that being a loyal fan means shouting down anyone who says anything that isn't completely rose-colored about our team? At what point in our evolution as a community of fans did that become commonplace, accepted, or legitimate? Are we so insecure with our position and our team's ability that we cannot stand to hear anything but praise without falling apart? I remember this happening all the time in the Jailblazer era. People would say Zach was not a great defender or that he didn't always bring it 100% and the cries of "hater" would commence. Apparently it was the truth, as the people in New York would already attest. Maybe you could understand the "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" approach when the team really stank. It was like salt in the wounds. But now the team has changed! We don't have to whistle past the graveyard anymore. So why are we, as fans, still acting like it's 2005-06? Is this how we want to be known and remembered?

--I'm assuming the whole point of complaining about an article like this is to make sure we get respect...to make sure the team looks good. Don't people realize that things like this make us look completely Bush League? So do a lot of things people do...like calling into sports shows and demanding respect when we haven't won anything yet like we talked about the other day. Spurs fans don't do that. Suns fans don't do that. Even L*ker fans don't do that...because they've all tasted success. We've tasted success too! I know we haven't been in the playoffs for a couple years but we did get there for over two decades straight before that. We've been to the Conference Finals twice within the last decade. We've been to the NBA Finals. We've won a championship. Once upon a time we were known as one of the proudest, best franchises and one of the most knowledgeable, passionate, truly great fan bases in the world of sports. Seeing stuff like this makes we wonder what the heck has happened. Whether we agree or not why do we act like a guy making a reasonable argument in a reasonable way robs us of all the respect we've ever had or earned? We're going to fall apart and lose everything because of what one guy says? Every time we act fragile like this it just proves more that we're not really confident in our team or our future and confirms people's skeptical impressions of us. Under the guise of giving people more to believe in, we actually confirm their disbelief. That doesn't make sense to me.

I know this isn't everybody, or the whole fan base. But it's hardly uncommon. And nobody remembers most of the fan base is reasonable when they read a bunch of comments like those above. We get defined by our loudest and weakest. I sincerely hope we do not let that happen, nor let that style of conversation carry the day, because it would be a sad day if this kind of thing ever seemed necessary or reasonable, let alone what Blazer fandom is about.

When other media people and bloggers write to me almost invariably they comment about what a wonderful community we have here. They say they read here precisely because the conversation is so good, and thoughtful, and a joy to be a part of. That makes me very happy. I appreciate all of you and what you've helped build here and there's not a day I forget that. Almost always in the same sentence those people also point out how rare that is. That makes me kind of sad. Why should it be rare? And why in the world should ANYONE have to anticipate that as soon as they say "boo" about the Blazers they're going to be attacked? Is this how we want our fan base to be defined? Our team is WAY better than that. Our reputation as fans should match it.

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)

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Comments

agreed

I think a few people have gone overboard with the "we don't get no respect" line. We have been getting a lot of good national press over the past month which we haven't had in a long time. Blazer fans haven't really learned to digest all of the good press we are getting and have been jumping on any negative press. Yeah, players are going to be mis-named or confused with other ones, but really its not a big deal and recently has been blown out of proportion. Lets appreciate the attention we are getting now and respect everyone's opinion.

Travis Outlaw drops the sledgehammer on Daequan Cook for a dunk so vicious, it's illegal in 48 states.

by BlazerBandit on Jan 4, 2008 12:29 AM PST reply actions

Mis-named players

I've been commenting on those but only because I think they are funny. I'm not irate or putting down the folks who do it (I've made equivalent mistakes in my life) - I'm commenting because I think it's funny. I don't even consider it a lack of respect ... how many times did Mike Rice call Sergio "Sergio Garcia" last year? His mind equated "Sergio" with "Garcia" because that is a known name to the media and Rice follows golf. No big deal, but funny (and Rice is great that way because he can laugh at himself.) No way was that lack of respect or smarts - it was just Mike Rice.

by jorga on Jan 4, 2008 7:25 AM PST up reply actions

definately

I never read the comments on ESPN.com (including, sadly, Truehoop) or NBA.com because of responses like those, but I do read practically every comment on this site. Heck, I even browse through the in-game comments AFTER I watched a game because they really help me gain perspective on certain stretches of the game through reading other peoples observations and responses. Sometimes the internet just gives people the feeling that they have a license to blast whatever/whomever they want blindly, which is unfortunate.

A little trick I employ to help blow those types of things off is imagine that the person who wrote the reply is like 12 years old, then it becomes comical to imagine them writing it, at least to me(usually).

by Devenex on Jan 4, 2008 12:58 AM PST reply actions

Me too/neither

I hardly ever read comments other than here because most aren't worth the paper they are written on :-) I found the same with sports talk radio - the callers rehashing the same thing show after show with an amazing lack of intelligence. (Which may have changed in the last twenty years because I haven't listened in that long - other than the Fifth Quarter on the way home from games.)

Imagining the poster to be 12 is probably not that far off the truth. I just assume they are emotionally immature - which can be a 12 yr old or someone 4 times that. I am ashamed to say I lump them all under the single word "stupid".

by jorga on Jan 4, 2008 7:11 AM PST up reply actions

I usually imagine them

as some 25 - 45 year old with the maturity and education level of a 12 year old.

by timg56 on Jan 4, 2008 7:27 AM PST up reply actions

I like to think they are drunk too

"When you're pushed... Killing's as easy as breathing." - Josh "Rambo" McRoberts

by tominhawaii on Jan 4, 2008 10:33 AM PST up reply actions

other habits

And they often say "would you like fries with that?"

by jon @ Blazer's Edge on Jan 4, 2008 11:15 AM PST up reply actions

Heh

I don't take issue with Sells' article. In fact, I welcome it. I share a like minded opinion that it will be extremely tough for Portland to make it to the playoffs. If they do, oh man, will I be excited.

What I do take issue with is when other fans say our team "sucks" and is "inferior" to their team, who, most of the time, happens to be either not that much better, or actually worse record wise than Portland. But that's fans versus fans.

Most other NBA fans appreciate basketball and love the Blazers and how they are playing. In fact, most of them would love to be in our position and some of them are even becoming more or less fans of Portland. But that probably has more to do with the fact that I like to stick around like-minded and open ended fans that just love basketball.

Although, L*kers will forever and ever suck.

ROTUNDITYDOTNET

by damir on Jan 4, 2008 1:12 AM PST reply actions

on tnt last night

charles barkley said he thought we were a good team, emphatically stated that brandon roy should be on the all-star team, but said that he didn't think the blazers would make the playoffs this year. when pressed as to why, he said the blazers don't get enough easy baskets, they're too dependent on jump-shots.

that's a legitimate point of view. charles isn't always right. i'm not that worried about the playoffs this year in any case. the teams at the top in the west don't seem as good as last year, and next year they're unlikely to improve.

i'm not worried about what anyone says about us right now.

ignacio

by ignacio on Jan 4, 2008 1:22 AM PST reply actions

I was going to make the same observation

In fact I half expected to see posts on BE blasting the Chuckster for his comments.

Funny thing was, I had to agree with him. Jump shooting teams are not good bets to make the playoffs and if they do, they don't get by the first round.

As a Blazer fan, I listen to Barkley, agree with his logic and then think that maybe Portland has enough of those intangibles (which they've demonstrated over the last 16 games) to buck the odds and actually make it in this year. In fact I'm going to continue to keep that flame going. But if asked to bet a significant sum of money on it, no way. I go with Barkley and say Portland just misses.

(However if we beat either Utah or GS at home, take 3 of the 7 road games and then sweep our last three games at home to end the month, then I may be taking those bets.)

by timg56 on Jan 4, 2008 7:37 AM PST up reply actions

You raise a legitimate question

and I also argue that those who post in many venues are not real fans and not worth the reading. As a Yankee, Cowboys and Kansas fan in addition to the Blazers (all of those date to before the Blazers existed) I read a fairly wide range of web pages. A few (like the WW2.KUsports.com) are fairly well respected but whenever I have read Sportsline.com comments they have been total garbage.

My point? I don't accept that the fan type comments on most websites are representative of the true fan base. I also don't think we have to apologize for them.

And I agree that we want to encourage writers in other parts of the country to write about us. At the moment we are a novelty I think. When we have 2-3 championships in a 5 year period they will all want to write about us. The major consideration for wanting good press back East for now is to create an environment that free agents want to join. Having cap space in 2009 will be worthless unless we are respected by players (and their families). Joel's decision to come back here was a turning point in my view and has paid big dividends on and off the court. Steve's choice last summer helped reinforce that image.

by lee3022 on Jan 4, 2008 1:23 AM PST reply actions

I go to an Orioles site

and I'm constantly surprised at the level of invective and hate for the Yankees and Red Soxs. Even worse are some of the comments about players on the O's. I'm not talking about criticizing players over their performance. Lord knows that's pretty justified with the sorry ass teams Baltimore has fielded over the past 10 years. I refer to things like Kevin Millar's throwing out a pitch for the Sox in the WS. You would have thought he had gone on a baby raping rapage through the city. Even folks who otherwise post thoughtful or insightful comments rant, swear and foam at the mouth. Makes me appreciate BE and Dave's light, but firm touch on the reins.

by timg56 on Jan 4, 2008 7:47 AM PST up reply actions

Oh

Those fans making such comments couldn't stand toe-to-toe with us over here at BE.

ROTUNDITYDOTNET

by damir on Jan 4, 2008 1:46 AM PST reply actions

I don't think

this is as much a Blazer fan issue as a netiquette issue. There's always going to be rude people spouting off on the 'net. I don't think Blazer fans are guilty of this more than others.

I can understand people getting angry but someone simply saying we aren't going to make the playoffs doesen't merit the virtrolic responses.

by jayseyfield on Jan 4, 2008 1:59 AM PST reply actions

This is what I was going to say...

Dave, it's admirable to think that our fan base is better than others. However, that's rather naive, don't you think? Many of the fans here at Blazers Edge left the OregonLive boards in disgust at the idiotic way people act.

And you're going to get those kind of people no matter what team is written about.

Now, I understand their frustration. They obviously didn't handle their response well. The reason the guy called his shot is because he knew going in he was wrong. There's no reason to write that kind of column saying he hasn't seen the team. How can you get any kind of respect as a writer commenting about something you know nothing about? As one comment suggested, hasn't he heard of League Pass? Plus, his logic is absolutely wrong in some cases (semi-bad road teams got in the playoffs last year).

I used to think one of the best things we rational fans can do is call out those people in that same comments section. Tell them to stop whining and insulting. Others who read it might say, "hey those are some good fans in Portland, calling out their own..." But those people got even more rude and irrational and tried to start flame wars (although some seemed embarresed). So now I just try to ignore them.

by Blazerholic on Jan 4, 2008 2:50 AM PST up reply actions

Probably nowadays

it is naive...but hopefully a good naive.

The part that confounds me is how people can say they're aiming for a certain goal but then what they do (or how they do it) achieves the exact opposite. To me this means one of two things.

Either:

1. You are really, really foolish.

Or:

2. Your actual goal is not your stated goal.

Since I have a hard time imagining anyone being so silly I kind of lead towards #2: their goal is not really to support the Blazers but to trumpet themselves or vent emotionally or wield anonymous power or whatever. But then that makes me kind of mad because you're masquerading as a Blazer fan...using something many of us pour our hearts and souls into...which not only cheapens it, it also makes us look silly right along with you.

I mean, I don't go to sleep at night worrying about these things but when I see them they tend to make me frustrated...much more frustrated than, say, an article saying we probably won't make the playoffs.

--Dave

by Dave on Jan 4, 2008 3:41 AM PST up reply actions

Ever heard of a site called Fire Joe Morgan?

They rip on Hall of Fame baseball player Joe Morgan all the time for repeatedly saying that he has not watched a team enough to form an opinion, and then he gives you his opinion.

Perhaps these comments were over the top, but I take issue with the article's premise to begin with--not that the Blazers won't make the playoffs, but that he didn't take the time to really watch them before forming his opinion. Of course there's a chance the Blazers won't make the postseason, but at least do some research on the team (i.e. watch them) before you write an article about them. Otherwise keep your opinion to yourself. That's what I think these fans were upset about.

In the end, you are right in that there is no excuse rude comments. But I do think it is okay to call out a journalist who poorly supports his points with research, as was the case with this article. And you can see that from my own comments on the article (I used bfan).

by bfan on Jan 4, 2008 6:20 AM PST reply actions

Is he a journalist?

What is a journalist anyway?

Quick is a journalist because he's paid to write about the team. Is Dave a journalist because he writes about the team? He is NOT a journalist because he doesn't get paid to do it?

We've talked before about what journalists can write in columns versus what they can write in blogs - and debated if journalists should even WRITE blogs.

I think bloggers (who aren't doing it for an employer) should be given more leeway than journalists, but I'm not sure "calling out" anyone does any good. It is not a good teaching tool.

by jorga on Jan 4, 2008 7:36 AM PST up reply actions

Well ...

since this was an actual article, and not a blog, I lean toward calling this fellow a journalist. Whether or not he has earned anything for writing this article, doesn't really matter in my opinion.

But with regard to his comment about not watching the Blazers play, I submit that it doesn't matter if he's a journalist or blogger or Elephant Stall Poop Shoveler at the Zoo: If he hasn't watched them, then he should write about them. Here were his exact comments:

"To be very honest, I have seen the Blazers play only two or three times this season. Because no one expected them to win many games, the only nationally televised games they have usually involve the centers that the NBA wants to hype against Oden or the matchups against Kevin Durant. As such, I haven't been able to sit down and form an opinion about the team or judge its current play."

If he hasn't been able to sit down and form an opinion on them, then why is he writing this? If Dave or Quick or Henry Abbott or anyone else wrote this or something similar to it, I would believe just as strongly that they shouldn't be writing what they are writing, and I would tell them so since they offered a spot to include my comment. Thankfully they are not doing this.

by bfan on Jan 4, 2008 8:27 AM PST up reply actions

I didn't actually read...

...your above comment, but I don't think it holds any valid points.

How much credibility do I now have? How much attention should people pay to the comments that follow such a statement?

Probably about the same amount as the number of games the Blazers have lost so far in 2008.

by Majikj0n on Jan 4, 2008 10:48 AM PST up reply actions

Exactly.

(I think ...)

by bfan on Jan 4, 2008 12:25 PM PST up reply actions

I think Jayseyfield called it...

...it's just the nature of "anonymous feeling" communication on the web.

At least we don't have people racing to type "first" after every new diary is posted.

I think anonymity (real or perceived) tends to coarsen public behavior. Call it the "tinted window effect:" Like people driving the freeway in cars with tinted windows, the web creates an environment where cutting people off, tailgating and flipping the bird appears devoid of personal consequences.

An inability to clearly express oneself through the written word certainly doesn't help matters.

My favorite comic (xkcd - look it up!) included a snide comment a few months ago that captured it:

"Fun game: try to post a YouTube comment so stupid that people realize you must be joking. (Hint: this is impossible)"

by webted on Jan 4, 2008 7:54 AM PST reply actions

Chuckster's comments

I spent a few mins last night defending (to my wife)Sir Charles comments. Not that I agreed with him but just that he had legit concerns to form the opinion about not making the playoffs. HOWEVER....before the game even started he stated, in an offhand way,"why are we even watching this game?". He said to the effect that they should be broadcasting the San Antonio-Denver game instead and that this was a couple of crappy teams that weren't worth watching. This is the type of thing that fuels this whole "ain't getting no respect" stuff. For cryin' out loud..shouldn't you at least pretend to care about the game to you are showing. How many national games have the Blazers had in the last few years...not many. So I went in kinda looking to see what they would say....and guess what....I found out.

by 92wastheyear on Jan 4, 2008 8:49 AM PST reply actions

the bulls ARE

a crappy team not worth watching...at least their body of work says so

if the matchups were us vs san antonio or denver and chi versus the other i wouldnt watch the game with CHI in it (from the viewpoint of a non-fan of any of the teams who just wanted to watch a good game)

that said, it was a pretty exciting finish despite some sloppy play by both sides in between

by DominicanAvenger on Jan 4, 2008 9:34 AM PST up reply actions

this is a non story

there will always be fans who feel that their team is being disrespected. The Blazers are now getting respect but people are uses to that not being the case. There will always be a group of fans who post that type of comment- a small piece of any fan group.

by jksnake99 on Jan 4, 2008 9:22 AM PST reply actions

Vocal minority tends to be this way

Whether it's politics, life style, religion, or sports, the people that say the silliest things and scream the loudest come from the far out edges. As a blogger, writer, analyst, commentator, editor, whatever, you gotta be prepared for negative feedback, right? I know as a poster that I do.

Can you smell what the Pritch is cooking?

by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jan 4, 2008 10:41 AM PST reply actions

What Saddens Me

Is that the same angry "no respect" people now will the be loudest "in your face" or "we're number one," when the Blazers actually win consistently and hopefully many championships. Obrich Kenobi said it best. Actually lots of people here summed it up nicely.

To me, it is simply laziness. They could have been constructive and gave fact based opinions, it is just easier to pound your chest call someone a "dumbass."

"When you're pushed... Killing's as easy as breathing." - Josh "Rambo" McRoberts

by tominhawaii on Jan 4, 2008 11:23 AM PST reply actions

And this bothers you?

Wow....I get to be a contrarian. ;-)

You ask the question...."So is this what being a Blazer fan means?"

Keep in mind 'fan' is derived from fanatic.

Anyone writing an article that includes instant feedback mechanisms is going to see that type of feedback. Anyone expecting otherwise is just not paying attention.

And in all honesty, why did Sells write "I haven't been able to sit down and form an opinion about the team or judge its current play." and then write an opinion and judge its play? He would have not exposed himself to some obvious criticism had he not made that statement.

Why should we worry about rabid fans? EVERY team has them. They are like obnoxious relatives.......just learn to deal with them.

On the related topic of whether or not the Blazers will make the playoffs, why is everyone so reluctant to admit the obvious......40 percent of a long season has been played, with the Blazers winning 60% of their games. The playoffs are not only possible, they are becoming downright probable. While there will be more peaks and valleys this season, does anyone truly expect this team to collapse?

While the winning 15-out-of-16 games is not truly representative of the Blazers over hte course of an entire season, neither was the 3-and-12 start at the beginning of the season. Anyone who watched the last 20 games LAST season knows that.

by antediluvian on Jan 4, 2008 11:26 AM PST reply actions

Why they do it

I think Chuck, maybe Chris Sells, and a host of other writers and pundits often express contrarian views just to be controversial, which gets them noticed. It's good theater. I'll bet they also enjoy pushing the buttons of short-tempered flamers, like a sadistic kid enjoys poking a stick through the bars at a caged animal.

Chuck, Tony Mejia, Sells, et al probably should have withheld their opinion on the Blazers' playoff prospects until after the game was over. As for his comment about watching a crappy game, I wonder if he's made that comment whenever Miami gets on TV, which is seemingly every game they play.

by MiledAnimal on Jan 4, 2008 1:04 PM PST reply actions