Weekend Thoughts: Timing
As we said yesterday The Pick has transformed the mindset of the entire Portland fan base. Folks who were talking about fighting for a #8 seed three weeks ago are now letting the "dynasty" word slip past their lips with startling regularity. If you ask the typical Portland fan it's not a matter of if we'll win a championship but when. The "when" is what I'd like to consider today. Let's assume for now that Oden is the pick and let's further assume that he is everything advertised. When can we expect to think about ticker-tape parades down Broadway?
I'm going to refer to Dave's Golden Theory #1, which I've shared before but not for a long while. (The last time was before the beginning of last season when I predicted the Spurs as champions, which is looking halfway decent right now.)
The team with the best chance of winning the championship is the team with the fewest questions surrounding it.
Some people look at who has the most talented individuals, others at regular season record, others at the ease of the potential road through the playoffs. For me the matter is simple: who has the fewest weaknesses and uncertainties to exploit? Through an 82-game regular season and a two-month playoff process your weaknesses are going to get exploited. You can hide them for a game, a month, a series, but somewhere along the line you're going to meet your nemesis. When that day comes the ship better be watertight or she's going down.
If your team enters the season (or worse the playoffs) and you're saying, "If things bounce right we could go a long ways..." you lose. It's as simple as that. Somebody will find your "if" and stuff it right back down your throat. The teams that win are the teams that are absolutely sure they are destined to win that title--that it's THEIRS--and that nobody has the ability to take it away from them. There are no "ifs" and no bounces. But that only gives you a legitimate shot at the rings. It's guaranteed that somebody else is thinking the same thing on the other side of the ball and only one of you can win.
Back to our original premise...assuming the talent is right, how long will it be until Portland is one of those teams with very few questions? How long until our fan base switches from people who would love to have a shot at the championship to people who will be jumping off bridges if we don't win a championship?
Let's start with The Big Pick.
To me the greatest true center of the modern generation was Hakeem Olajuwon. I'm amazed his name gets skipped over in the discussion of best centers of all time. He was a monster athlete and had the complete game. But if you think back to the beginning of his career, it took him 4-5 years to really develop into a championship-level player. There were frequent complaints about him not being able to pass out of double teams or be a part of the team offense. Mind you, he was good, in fact very good from the get-go, but he didn't develop into consistent championship-level good for quite a while. If you prefer Shaquille O'Neal he was a dominant force from the start also. Like Hakeem he led his team to the NBA finals in his first three years. Like Hakeem's team they lost and he didn't get back for a long time. Only when he went to the Lakers, five years into his career, did he begin to develop into the passing, multiple-threat offensive champion that we know and hate. Tim Duncan would be an exception as his team won it all in his second year. But he had the fortune of playing with another fantastic center of his era, David Robinson. The Admiral also took quite a while to get into championship-level gear, as anyone who remembers Larry Brown yelling himself hoarse at him will attest. The point is, even the greatest talents of our lifetime took a few years to blossom. Their amazing ability was evident from the start but it took a while for their game to smooth out and their questions to be answered.
The fate of Zach Randolph is obviously a huge issue for this team. If he stays there are questions of how he adapts to the new talent and whether there's space for the kids to develop, especially offensively, around him. Many people feel strongly enough about those questions being answered in the negative that they're ready to move him. But that brings up more questions. Who do we get in return? How does the team, heretofore so reliant on Z-Bo to bail them out of scoring droughts, find its sea legs in these new waters? How does the chemistry change? In losing Zach we lose our most reliable, talented veteran. Even if that's a good change it leads us into a big unknown.
Lamarcus is a wonderful talent and would appear to be ready to replace Zach at the big forward position but he has a lot of un-leapt hurdles before him also. He's never faced consistent double teams and had to score in spite of them or pass out of them. In the absence of another major scorer he'd probably be a (or maybe even the) main cog in the offense if Zach goes. How will he handle that pressure? He hasn't played major minutes through an entire season and playoffs and we don't know how his body will hold up.
The small forward position is about as unsettled as it can be. Ime is great and very steady but he's also pushing 30. How much longer will he be able to take the opponent's best scorer every night? Can you even have him playing major minutes on a high-level team? And after that...sheesh! Who the heck is Travis? What the fudge is going on with Martell? Can either of them play with ANY level of consistency? If we get a high-powered rookie to end the debate pencil in a two-plus year learning curve for him too.
Brandon Roy is as close to a sure thing as we've got and I think his value comes precisely in having fewer questions than anybody else with his level of experience. He also needs to continue to grow though. If he does eventually take over point guard duties his learning curve will get exponentially steeper. He's a great guy but he is a second year player.
We just spent the better part of a week talking about our point guard position. We got 129 comments on the main page alone about the ins and outs of Jack and Sergio and how capable (or not) either is of assuming the helm. Amidst those comments were possible trade scenarios and a bunch of talk by Jason Quick of bringing in a veteran to help out. Imagine we posed the question on Bright Side of the Sun, "Do you think Steve Nash is the best starting point guard for this team or should the backup take over? Or do you think maybe we should acquire some veteran help?" How many comments would we get? And how many of those would contain more than the word, "Idiot!"? We don't even know if either of our celebrated point guards work. And even if they do, it's a sure bet at that position that a couple years' worth of seasoning will be a necessity before they're clockwork reliable.
I am NOT trying to be pessimistic here. In fact if you asked me whether these questions were going to get resolved and if they'd be resolved positively my answer to both would be a resounding, "YES!" I truly believe we're going to be very, very good. I don't want to jinx it by making bold claims too early, but I am legitimately thinking of that "C" word...and I am also thinking about the plural "s" behind it. But seriously, I think it's also going to take t...i...m...e. There's too much to be solved and settled into yet. We're still a long ways away question-wise. To answer the recent poll question, I don't think it's necessarily a given that we're that much better than the Sonics would be next year with a young Durant, a re-signed Lewis, and their veterans. In a couple years, though...
As I said a few weeks ago, though most people think of the playoffs as an orderly progression from sorta-good first rounders to the second round next year to the conference finals to winning it all it usually doesn't work that way. Eventual championship teams usually don't spend a lot of time mucking around in the first round before they get there. More often they explode onto the playoffs, taking no prisoners, and get at least to the second round or further in their first try or two. After that it's on. It can happen pretty quickly when it does happen, but it takes a while to ramp up to that speed.
I think the Blazers are well on their way to addressing all of the above-mentioned questions. But even with ideal solutions, in my view it'll be a while before they'll be a major threat. Two years from now is the earliest the window cracks. That will be our coming out party. (Contrast this to a couple months ago when I made the same claim for the two year window except to legitimately battle for a low seed.) It's hard to win it all in your coming-out party and I wouldn't expect it. But after that the dogs are loosed and the hunt is on. And given the ages of our players--provided everybody remains both healthy and faithful--that window should be open for a long, long time.
Assume that our greatest dreams will come true and this team will be talented and committed enough to contend for the highest prize. What's your guess on the timing? And what are the biggest questions to be answered first?
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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We're looking at the same time frame as before
(5-6 seed, maybe better. The "better" depends more on other teams, so probably not). I'm thinking we can sneak in this next year, but it depends on the learning curve/adjustment to new main piece(s). What's different now is the jump once we get to that level, the acceleration. By that time, Our young guys will be nearing their prime, this year's rookies will start to be really solid, and everyone will be familiar with each other and their roles. We could be talkiing title in 4-5 years (whereas before, it would be more like high seed/possible deep run to the WCF; kind of like Utah did this year).
Most pressing question: rotation, rotation, rotation. Title teams have everybody knowing their roles. Portland is still figuring out who can/can't do what when and where, and will need development before the starters are set as a team and individuals. Once that occurs, you can snatch those role players that will each address a specific weakness/grab that starter that will push you over the top.
(note: trading/not trading Zach, Sergio's development, everybody's deveolpment, filling in the SF, etc. all fall under the main heading of "who starts and who does what?" i.e., rotation. One can argue that development is more pressing because it has to happen before setting the rotation, but that still makes it a question that ultimately leads to figuring out what is the rotation.)
Look at Portland from 90-92. Before that, they had the starters advanced/set enough to know their weakness and address it (Buck Williams, then Danny Ainge). Once they filled that in, two finals and one WCF in three years. It will be the same thing for this team. In 3-4 years, where will we be weak? SF? PG still unsolved? Need a shooter, handler, rebounder, lockdown D off the bench? We fill that in, and in conjunction with our far enough along guys, we accelerate.
Good points Dave
As for a championship... I would guess a championship window would open up three years from now and be open for three years or so. But that is all speculation and dependent on adding and/or subtracting the right players at the right time. It looks promising with the front office team they have put together and with Nate coaching. He is a much better coach than his record shows right now.
I would say the biggest question is, is it worth it to keep Zach another year to see if he blends with the new guys coming in and to give them time to develop or is he the asset the Blazers need to use to fill a more pressing need, namely SF, right away? And wrapped up in this is answering whether Outlaw can be one of the pieces in a championship run.
I'm more optimistic
--Dave
I hope so.
I more or less
This, hopefully, will be just the opposite. Guys, we could really be good for a long, long time!
--Dave
I would say 4 years to get to
It's also going to take that long for some of the elite WC teams to fall off the map. San Antonio will be old by then. TMac's back will probably be done. And if Nash is done by then, Phoenix won't be the same team. Denver is also built to win now. In the future it all depends on how we will match up with Utah, New Orleans, and to an extent Cleveland and Chicago.
I just think that in 4 years no one in the west is going to be able to hang with this team...
Hmmm... How long?
I know we might not make the playoffs, but if we don't make it I'll be very disappointed. I woulda' been disappointed if we didn't make it BEFORE the #1 pick; now we have to expect it. Health permitting, we got the pieces to compete for at least one of the last 3 spots, and if some of the questions marks become exclamation points (Martell is a scorer!! Outlaw is a great consistent 6th man!! Jack can play a running game!!) we'll do even better.
I might be a homer, but I feel like I've kept my expectations realistic before. I just think we'll have an awesome, young team with lots of promise AND we'll actually be decent this next season. And, we'll see that even if we don't go far in the playoffs, we obviously got all the major pieces we need and just more Tee Eye Emm Eee in the oven is needed.
But not too long. I don't think we'll have to be too patient and next year will be a plus .500 year; like Pritchard said we'll have 3 out of 4 of the best rookie/2nd year players in the league and as they are all team players with skills on both sides of the court, it's a recipe for fun success even early on.
Our questions for now: If we get Oden, who do we get for the long term at small forward? If we get Durant, is Aldridge a center? If not, who we get long term at center? Can Martell get it together? Can Outlaw continue to grow and improve on the promise he has shown the last 8 years on the team (it seems like he has been around forever, and he's still only 19 or so)? Who do we get for Z-BO? (I don't think it's a question of IF we trade him, it's a WHEN) Is Jack our point guard of the future? What on Earth are we gonna do with Darius? What is Darius gonna do with himself? Why won't KP return my phone calls? Doesn't he know we're destined for each other?
Like I said, I think every one of those questions will be answered OR you can accurately guess what the answer will be by next season. You can add general questions about Sergio up there, but I'll keep him in the "Pleasant Surprise" section of the Blazers and not worry whether he is a starter or not for now. If he continues to shine, great... but we can't depend on it enough to expect it.
That way he won't be seen as a disappointment like Martell. I like Martell a lot though, and think he'll pull it together. But next season is a very important year, and became all the more important with the #1 pick.
You can't be in a rush to greatness, but we are getting there in a hurry.
Mortimer
Two years, is my estimation.
As for my 2 year estimation, it's based around this:
You're pretty spot on about Z-Bo. It pains me that he's really hitting his stride and beginning to play like a true vet, but still makes bad personal decisions about his 'social activities'. When he's ON, he plays like a monster. But, the off-court transgressions, I think, is the reason KP would end up trading him (culture). His moving on, will finally end what I've called the 'Sheed-Stoudamire Era, and the KP/Roy/Oden Era will be in full bloom.
If Z-Bo gets traded before next season, regardless of who we get in his place, we'll still have another year of 'gelling' before we are in a SERIOUS playoff groove. I'm starting to see regular sparks of brilliant play from our guys, and more bodies/more support in the seats at the RG will only serve to inspire the team to further levels of greatness.
After another season of 'gelling' though (and barring any crazy/catastrophic injury), I feel that we will be on-course for our first ring(s) by the '09-'10 season, at the latest. Strange to think it's been 30 years....think we deserve to break The Curse? = )
Playoffs
If we were in the East, we'd be a 5th seed for sure. In the West, I still think we can pass Golden State, LA (depending on how they appease Kobe), and maybe threaten Utah, Houston, and Denver.
By 08-09, I think we could make one of those surprise runs young teams make before getting punched in the mouth by the Spurs.
2009/10, we should be legit title contenders. Oden will be in his 3rd year, and LaMarcus and Roy with be in their 4th years.
agree. 3 years to championship/contention
- to eliminate questions Dave spoke of, trade zach sooner rather than later.
- build with defense, versatility, smart bb players
- I've never heard anyone say, live by the rebound, die by the rebound, live by defense, die by defense, same for foul shots, smart players, role players, good coaching, etc.
- draft. trade for good, not great necessarily sf, and just take time to develop. The pieces are almost all in place now.
- blowing up the blazers a couple of years ago and going to a youth movement worked, we're just in the middle of the process.
Looking back
But it wasn't until Clyde's seventh year that we made the conference finals (and won). It took quite awhile to assemble that team. Clyde was drafted in '83, Kersey in '84, Porter in '85. Traded for Duckworth in '86 and Williams in '89. So that was six years to get the "finals" starting lineup on the roster.
It wasn't until Clyde's fifth year that he led the team in scoring (behind Paxson his first year, Vandeweghe the rest of the time.)
All true ...
This is where...
It's a long, hard road to the championships. We're just now picking ourselves up off the floor. As we've seen from the Whitsett era, talent alone will not get you there. Chemistry is huge (flashbacks of Sheed throwing that towel in Sabas' face...yuck!). And, chemistry is a fluid thing. Some players can help you get to the next level and thats all. It's time for that player to go and to find another who can lift you even higher. Players we've grown to love and admire may have to move on for the sake of the goal. Great management will step up and make the tough moves and take the heat. When the confetti flies, all will be forgiven.
In my opinion the best case scenario, given all the right managerial moves, all the proper pieces in place, at the right time, barring serious injuries, and providing for a little patience by fans and players alike...we could be in the finals in four years.
...and it can still be a lot of fun along the way!
Towel
But what a baby, a wretched teammate, and selfish jerk. We shouldn't have traded him to the Pistons, we should have exiled him to the Grizzlies or something.
Did anyone see him tear off his shirt in the hallway after one of their losses to the Cavs, and he just chucks hard behind him without lookng and it wraps around some Detroit (not player) guy's face? What a.... woops, almost broke the no-cursing rule. I'm sure you can come up with your own.
Technically
--Dave
i'm still
by DominicanAvenger on Jun 2, 2007 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
He looked great tonight in Game 6
2 keys to the "how-long" question:
2-Cap-Flexibility. If KP does nothing more this summer than dump Zbo for expiring contracts, and Darius retires in August, I will be very happy. This would give us a cap-number close to 40mil at worst heading into next summer. Raef's 14 mil comes off the following year. That gives KP 2 summers to get under the cap and add the key veteran pieces before Roy/LMA/Sergio/top pick are due their extensions.
It's not as important to me that we even MAKE the playoffs the next 2 years. I want to have a legitimate shot at the Finals as soon as possible, and that's in 3 years. I think that's extremely realistic. I'm very confident our young core will develop fast these next 2 years, and even more confident that KP will add the right pieces when necessary.
by JMblazerfan on Jun 2, 2007 9:16 AM PDT reply actions
I agree
by Bucky Blazer on Jun 2, 2007 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Role players
by moved away on Jun 2, 2007 10:21 AM PDT reply actions
Timing
by riles44 on Jun 2, 2007 11:15 AM PDT reply actions
it all depends on
well considering
as much as i love outlaw and martell, they haven't really earned a huge payday anywhere yet...while I can't rule out Isaiah Thomas I doubt they're going to get max deals thrown at them by every team in the league unless they show MARKED improvement in the next couple years.
by DominicanAvenger on Jun 2, 2007 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
2009-2010 - Contenders
possibly a 5th or 6th seed. Most consider that
leapfrogging the Spurs, Mavs, Suns, Jazz and
Rockets will be tough. I think that the key is
Nate's coaching/melding of our talent into a
cohesive defensively oriented team.
The following factors will influence our
timing.
1. Trading Zbo this summer for a veteran player
(SF or PG) and or another lottery pic.
Brewer would be a good fit as he is long,
plays defense, has some fire and could
develop into a complimentary scorer.
If the trade is for a veteran, we don't
have to have a "Star" player, but a good
all around player, ie Calvin Natt. A
lunch pail player. As is, we have a poor
mans Natt in Ime. Love his effort even on
a bad knee.
2. Continued development of our young players.
Roy on his outside shooting/D, LMA in the
weight room and expanding his post game,
Sergio on D/moving the ball/weight room/
decision making, etc. Travis needs to work
on quick feet/lateral, ball handling and
passing, JJ continuing to work with Nate
on all aspects and Martell on D/handle/
shooting/shooting/shooting. (I sat next to
Martell's two buddies at the last game and
got some good impressions of his summer
plans. Two very nice young men. Martell is
still very young and needs some time to
develop no matter what Fatty thinks.)
3. Picking up that last veteran cog, ie
Buck Williams. That person doesn't have
to be a big scorer, but a veteran leader
who can back up Roy on the bench and in the
locker room. All the other pieces are in
place in the pot (Once we pick GO), now
the mix has to stew for a couple of years.
I think the Blazers will be ready to contend
for a title in 09-10 and will be a force for the
following decade. I've been a Blazermaniac since
1974 and have watched almost every game on TV
since, but have to say I'm most excited now
about the combination of skill and demeanor of
the current players (minus Zbo & Darius). Some
of the long term success rides with KP keeping
things balanced in terms of cap and resigning
our best players, but Nate and his staff hold
most of the keys!
It's GO time !
depends on what the losers do
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jun 2, 2007 1:19 PM PDT reply actions
Champs First Try
I think 2 years to make the playoffs. The 3rd year could get us the title.
by RapidRob on Jun 2, 2007 5:25 PM PDT reply actions
future
I think with the front office we have, and the 4 pieces of Zbo, Roy, LMA, Oden, will make us playoff contendors instantly and serious contendors by 2010.
by junit3123 @ Blazer's Edge on Jun 3, 2007 11:59 AM PDT reply actions
Sooner than later
My guess is that the Blazers win 45-48 games next year, and make the playoffs as a 6-8 seed. They will play hard, but will get bounced in the first round. The next season will be the one in which they breakout. They will win 50-55 games, and will go deep into the playoffs. The third season will see them close to 60 wins, and an appearance in the title series. After that, if they can stay healthy and keep the core (Oden/LMA/ROY)happy, they will win 5+ titles before the trio retire.
That's my story, and I am sticking to it.
A Blazer championship in 3 years...
At PG - Jack needs 2-3 years of additional experience. Sergio needs even more. While I think Blake shortens that time frame, he complicates the rotation question.
At SG - Only position without much question. Freddie Jones, with steady minutes, is a nice 2 off the bench. That may be particularly so along side Rodriguez. Webster needs at least 2 more years to develop defensively.
At SF - I think Ime is a great peice, particularly on a playoff caliber team. But some have made a good point that by the time the Blazers get there, Ime may be sliding down the wrong side of the age curve. (Then again, Bowen is 36.) Outlaw is nothing but questions (including is he even a SF.) Fortunately, I think this is the easiest position to fill, if it becomes the "final piece".
At PF - I agree with Dave on the question concerning Aldridge. How that gets answered is probably going to be the key to how fast the Blazers make it back into the playoffs and to the conference finals. Personally, I think Aldridge is destined to be the team's best player. The bigger question right now is Randolph. Is he or isn't going to be a Blazer?
At Center - Dave's probably on the money is figuring that Oden is going to need 3-4 years to develop into a true If Aldridge is the stud I think he is, then the Blazers should be ok with a tandem of a developing Oden and Pryzbilla holding down the middle.
Predictions:
- 45% chance they make the playoffs next year. Improves to 50% if Randolph stays.
- 25% chance they make it to the conference finals by year 3.
- Starting in year 4 the Blazers are one of the 4 best teams in the West. (A run that could last 6-8 years.)
Championship in 4
by trail time on Jun 4, 2007 9:56 AM PDT reply actions

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