Topic of the Day: Would you do it?
So here's the question of the hour around these parts.
The Bulls are likely to covet Kevin Garnett and Pau Gasol, both of whom might be available and might not. But lets say that they can't get either one of those and they do want to make a push for a serious title run in the weakened East this year. Plus they realize that they're going to lose the bargaining chip of P.J. Brown's expiring contract at the end of the year. So they call up the Blazers and offer this package:
P.J. Brown 6'11" 239lb PF 5.0 pts, 4.5 rebs per game, 37 years old, $8 million contract, expires after this season.
Andres Nocioni 6'7" 225lb SF 15.4 pts, 6 rebs per game, 27 years old, $3 million contract, expires after this season.
PLUS their first round pick with the rights to exchange with the New York Knicks this season. New York currently ranks 20th out of 30 teams in the league. Portland ranks 21st.
for
Zach Randolph 6'9" 258lb PF 23.8 pts, 10.3 rebs per game, 25 years old, 5 year contract at an average of $14.7 million per year.
This trade does work under cap rules.
Right here, right now, would you do it? Comment below and state your reasoning.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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hhhmmm
by Bucky Blazer on Jan 28, 2007 11:34 PM PST reply actions
hmm
yes actually..
and because
although I like zbo more and more every week, I don't think this team can contend, but a more up tempo offense that could consist of
sergio, jack
roy, ime
nocioni, webster
aldridge, outlaw
przybilla
is pretty solid, not to mention we'd have 2 first round picks now, to draft a solid center perhaps, noah?
we'd have serious cap relief to
by junit3123 @ Blazer's Edge on Jan 28, 2007 11:42 PM PST reply actions
probably not
good question!
Otherwise I say thanks but no thanks. My reason is that Aldridge isn't ready yet to be a starter and cleary Mags and Brown ain't the answer either. We would be giving up too much for a hustle guy and a 37 year old jump shooter. And I think we know that the draft is a double edged sword, no guarantee that New York plummets and no guarantee that we get a rotation guy even in a deep draft.
As for this being a good move for cap relief, better to stand pat and let Mags contract expire than to move our best player in a less than optimal deal.
well
- Development. Aldridge would get more oppurtinities to develop his game, and Joel would have be used more for post offense in the game at some point, giving him floor time and a stronger offensive dimension.
- Style. While half-court execution is vital, we do seem to have a team capable of running, as has been noted. Running may not necessarily become the automatic style, but there are less obstacles to the option.
- Cap. With the exception of Miles (who is a cap-eater under $10 mil a year, which seems like an accomplishment in this league nowadays) there are no long term expensive commitments, which makes Portland a better free agent player and more flexible in paying out later (i.e. when Roy's rookie contract expires).
- Roster. Extra picks, esp. first rounders from lower echelon teams, never hurt. We will have 2 first round picks, 2 expiring contracts, and a moveable piece in Nocioni and a safety valve in Nocioni if something changes with Outlaw or Webster. This opens up a myriad of trade opportunities in and of itself, not that we need to make them, but the creative room is always nice to have.
- Draft. It is a deep draft. It is the kind of draft where unloading a piece that doesn't fit in long term, but also may cost you enough wins to get more ping pong balls is win-win. That may not sound pretty, but it's the truth.
- Zach. He'll go to a place where he has a chance to win, and a chance to contribute a lot of what the bulls need, without having to be the appointed leader. His stats should rise against the Eastern big men. No Duncan, Yao, Gasol, Nowitzki, Stoudemire, etc. on a regular basis.
7. Defense. Zach isn't the greatest, to put it one way, and I can't remember the last time a team had championship succes when the philosophy/character of the coach was the opposite of the centerpiece's (see Detroit with Saunders for example of clash, Phil Jackson and anybody for an example of when they are aligned.)
In conclusion, if the team does not find itself right away after Zach, there will be plenty of freedom and options to make things run smoothly, as opposed to having a large salary and limited mobility.
Of course if we kept, him I think we would be fine and the possibilities opened by this trade are less sure than betting on Zach's development. I also have a bad feeling about Zach working with Skiles.
My barometer/adventurous side says do it, though.
totally agreed with supremepuntiff
I am absolutely opposed to the idea of tanking intentionally in order to get a better draft pick, as it will hurt our franchise's reputation and destroy our young players' development and confidence.
By trading Zach we would enter the tank mode automatically, in the mean time, however, we also send out the message to our young players "YOU ARE THE FUTURE" and given the reasons that we could trade Zach (as pointed out by supremepuntiff above), nobody would really think we are doing this to tank. We would get the upside of the tanking (i.e. draft picks) while avoiding nearly all the downsides (except for the bad record and maybe attendence in the short term)
In the end we would have a clearer picture about our team - style of play, players to build around and hence a better environment for their growth AND two very high picks in a very deep draft, PLUS the huge cap space (don't forget Derek Anderson's contract is expiring as well - that'd give us 4 expiring contracts with $29 millions!)
Sorry Zach. I know you want to stay here and you justified that with your fantastic performance this year. But if that trade comes up, I'd still pull the trigger instantly because that would certainly do us more good in the long run.
the pick is not guaranteed to be a lottery pick
Not only that but the Bobcats have been dumping salary and getting lottery picks since their inception and look where its gotten them.
i say yes
For all the reasons mentioned above
His personal life will not be scrutinized so much in Chicago, and it is close to home for him. He is more likely to behave better there.
I like the list of reasons provided by Supremepuntiff. Flexibility for the future and cap space will become necessary about the time Zach's share of the pie really gets big. Zach's contract will limit the ability of the Blazers to keep the core of young players together.
In the last few weeks there has been several mentions of how the young players are progressing ahead of expectations and starting to get crunchtime minutes. Perhaps there wouldn't be much of a dropoff in the last half of the season if they continue to progress, especially if Nocioni can play at a pace that blends with other players on the team.
I like the idea of Kevin Pritchard having lots of draft picks to use! If it were still Nash, that could more easily be seen as a problem.
Yes, of course.
We wish. Nocioni is a tough, tough player with a great stroke, who is young to boot. If we had that expiring contract along with jamals and NY first pick we would be sitting pretty. I can tell you now that Zach is not a Scott Skiles player. Chicago hangs their hat on Defense.
uh..............zach?
2 changes
or
exchange nocioni for Deng and toss in that draft pick.
Oh Yeah
by blazerprophet on Jan 29, 2007 7:39 AM PST reply actions
Absolutely
I do disagree with some of the sentiments mentioned here that we would only have Miles' contract left to get rid of. I've said it again and again--LaFrentz is the worst contract on this team. Two years left after this season at 12 mil/per, and unlike Miles, we KNOW he's not going to get any better. If we had Chicago's draft pick, I wonder if that gives us an opportunity to move LaFrentz's contract. We could trade LaFrentz and the pick for a veteran instead of having another team full of rookies. Personally I would rather use the pick, but it's a thought ...
I think i would
if Andres is the type of player that can fit into an offense and score consistently and at least hold his own on defense, I say yes.
Right here...right now..?
Great players alone do not bring instant success, as we've seen from the Whitsett era. It's more about chemistry and team goals. If a major trade happens, work these things out in the training camp and preseason. This season is still very redeemable as far as learning how to win and gaining respectability again (if only in the player's minds).
It would not break my heart to see Zach go. Let's just not be too hasty. I have a lot of confidence in Pritchard to find the pieces we need for success. There are better options down the road.
I don't think so...
If we are to trade Zach (and I'm not totally against it) I want some veteran leadership.
See, all these young guys coming in are fun and are undoubtedly the future but at some point the rebuilding has to stop and the growing has to begin in earnest. I think we are approaching that time.
Some of us are old enough that we always eat our desert first, just in case. I want that championship in my lifetime and it won't happen if the team is forever getting younger.
by ken @ Blazer's Edge on Jan 29, 2007 8:31 AM PST reply actions
I'd do it for Deng.
I'd also keep my eyes out on that NY pick. Right now, the Knicks are a half game out of first place in the Atlantic, and at 21-23 are flirting with a winning record.
If Nocioni is the prize, though, my concerns:
- Would he stick around after this season, and how much would it cost us? PJ Brown is little more than an expiring contract. Nocioni, as a young player who can guard people, is something the Blazers need--but if he doesn't want to stay here, that could be an issue. Also, it's a bit risky to trade for someone (that you might want to re-sign) in their contract year for another reason--it's hard to evaluate them. (See Miles, Darius for what can go wrong; Nocioni fortunately has a better head on his shoulder than Darius does).
- Our D would improve, but where would scoring and rebounding come from? Nocioni is decent but not great on the boards; he's not a major offensive threat. And who starts? Noci and LA? Noci and Ime? Ime and LA?
for all you people saying no
Send him packing
by moved away on Jan 29, 2007 9:33 AM PST reply actions
not quite
i'd love to see z-bo moved before the deadline, but not just for the sake of it, we need to improve the team as well. i'd rather send z-bo with our 1st round pick to the grizz for pau gasol.
I'd go for it
Let's face it, he's had a great season, but do you feel his play over the last month to month and a half has increased or lowered his trade value? I think it has lowered his trade value, his stats have gone down across the board during that time, and even when he puts up numbers like he did on Saturday night he is doing it with an unbeliveable number of shot attempts w/ a low shooting percentage (granted some of these attempts are putbacks that are part of the same sequence, so consequentally the shot attempts lie some). If his trade value is at his highest this season we should deal by draft day at latest, and if he doesn't pick up his performance to that of the first couple of months of the season we may get more for him prior to the trade deadline than at draft time. I fear that if he is on the team next season we will continue down the same road as we've struggled to free ourselves from next year... not enough minutes for the future of the team, not the style of play that we want to be involved in, but forced into it due to the genuine talent that Zach does have. If he's on the team he's too good to not play, but if he's hurting most of our players enough we'd be better off without him, deal him while his value is high!
No way
Gasol or KG
no
only way i'm trading him is for a big name
by luckyride on Jan 29, 2007 11:49 AM PST reply actions
On Youth
"We don't need to make our cap situation any tougher," said Patterson, whose team has approximately $57.2 million in salary committed for next season and three free agents -- Travis Outlaw, Ime Udoka and Magloire -- to consider re-signing. "More flexibility and youth is probably the focus."
I don't think the Blazers would really mind getting younger. Nate has said he'd like more veterans because they'd help him win now, which is always the focus of coaches (since it's the standard by which they're judged). But as a whole I get the impression that the Blazers are fine with building even more through this draft and wouldn't mind losing some veteran role-players, or even their star, to make that happen (and to achieve the cap flexibility that would come with it).
--Dave
New rule:
If you have to have velcro on your shoes because you haven't got the hang of those string thingies, we don't want you on the team.
If you even consider calling Zach, "The old guy", we don't want you on the team.
If you can go to Nate and say, "Hey, coach, I didn't know you used to play..." We don't want you on the team.
I don't mind trading Zach, but we need some veteran leadership.
by ken @ Blazer's Edge on Jan 29, 2007 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
If we trade Zach ...
I believe
--Dave
The important thing
is that this year's two-year-plan, becomes next year's one-year-plan.
Always being two years out sucks.
by EngineerScotty on Jan 29, 2007 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
THAT..
by ken @ Blazer's Edge on Jan 29, 2007 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
Ahhhhh...
It's a little like saying, "This girlfriend isn't right for me, but if I let her go and date somebody else I'll have to start from scratch and who knows how it will go, so I'll just keep this one." Doesn't work.
I'm not saying that this is the case with Zach or anybody on our team. I'm just saying that saying, "We can't keep getting younger or we'll never get there" can't be the only barometer, any more than, "We have to make a change now just for the sake of change" can be.
Younger or older, if you think the move's right then pull the trigger. If it's not, don't. That's pretty much what I expect of management. I can wait a couple years for the right move to pan out. I'd far rather do that than go along hoping my current situation was right and then finding out two years later that it wasn't.
I do wonder sometimes how the tug-of-war at Blazer Central goes on this. If I had to guess I'd say that Nate would be opposed to trading any veteran pieces on speculation or youth. I'd say Pritchard would be more willing to, as the draft is his domain right now and he'd love more tools to work with. Patterson seems to use that "flexibility" thing a fair amount. Maybe he's a cap guy? I don't know. I could be wrong about all of that. But it would be interesting to hear their conversations.
--Dave
Here's where we agree...
Of course we are looking for the right mix. And I have never advocated simply staying with what we have. If anything, I'm one of the least of Zach's supporters, er, or something.
There are simply too many problems with continuously going after the newest models.
- You are always chasing potential. Most potential, at least in my experience, is never reached.
- A championship team, to my way of thinking, needs a mix (there's that word again) of young and old. The old actually needs to have the smarts and/or the ability. Our olds really don't shine in either category.
- For every young guy you bring in, someone has to go. In most cases, it's the young guy from last year or the year before. This is not exactly progress. (Well, it can be, but this is my story.)
- At some point this team, any team, has to say it's time to move forward. I think we are very near that point.
- We need some vets. We need some verifiable, intelligent vets. I think I am on the same process that Nate is on, here.
- I am rambling.
- Old people do that.
- ""We can't keep getting younger or we'll never get there" can't be the only barometer, ..." No, but it is undeniably true, and it IS one of the barometers that we have to adhere to.
by ken @ Blazer's Edge on Jan 29, 2007 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
Incidentally...
Well, OK, actually it might work quite well for basketball players but this is getting away from the point. I don't remember quite what the point was but I'm quite certain it was nowhere near here.
by ken @ Blazer's Edge on Jan 29, 2007 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, okay. I'd do it. For 3 reasons:
Just kinda feel like these questions should be on a pure yes/no basis.
Not a "rule", but it just seems like that's the deal.
2) Love the no-long-term-contracts aspect.
If we waive Darius now, where does that put us in committed payroll for next season?
Something like, what, $15 mil under the cap or so?
That's before signing draft picks and re-signing existing free agents (certainly Ime, maybe Nocioni or Trout), but still.
We could actually be a player in the free agent market.
3) I feel like if you don't trade Zach before training camp next year, you've gotta keep him for his contract's duration.
You can't pass up the current opportunity and hit something as good or better later.
And given his contract numbers and past off-court behavior, I just can't commit to that.
One thing to remember about NBA contracts
They are structured with raises every year. (Zach's PAYMENT arrangements are unique, but the cap value of the contract goes up at a fixed rate).
If we do this trade now, Chicago pays for the expensive years of the contract (though the teams may work out a cash settlement as part of the trade). Players get harder to trade the later into their contract they get.
by EngineerScotty on Jan 29, 2007 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
Excellent points, All!
Fisrt: Is Zach (or can he be) a player in Portland's 2-year future? My answer is no. That's not to bash Zach. He's had an outstanding year and he's demonstrated a growing leadership ability. He's a player, and he'll make some team with the right system very happy, but that team won't be the Blazers.
Second: Will this deal move the organization the direction it needs to go? Yes. The Blazer organization has used the "broken economic model" enough, and cut cost and personnel enough for them to jump at this deal. In one relatively minor trade, we could clear a significant amount of cap space over the next two years, and in the process we'd get another lottery pick.
To Nate I'd say, "sorry bud." He'll have another year to develop young players, but this should be the last year we try to build from the draft. After this, we should have the future players in place to begin growing team chemistry in ernest. As long as the core group stays in tact a couple years, we should see a steady increase in the win column. After that, we'll see if the roster should be tweeked to take the next step. I'm betting we'll be able to win with the players KP gets us in the draft, but at least we'd have the "flexability" to get that one coveted free-agent to put us over the top.
How many cliches did I just use? It seemed like I just cut and pasted them together.
by Steve The Hedge on Jan 29, 2007 4:18 PM PST reply actions
I'd try harder for Deng
Sure, no one likes to give up our own young talent, but it will probably come to that at some point.
Anyway, I'd do that deal and be pretty happy about it.
JJ/Sergio/Dan
Roy/Dixon (Martell if he stays)
Deng/Ime (Outlaw or Martell)
Aldridge/Brown
Pryz/Mags/Raef
We might win a few less games this year, but long term, I think it'd be a much brighter future for the team. Especially if the Knicks pick was included and we got another big in the draft.
by ljm on Jan 30, 2007 11:57 AM PST reply actions

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