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Comparative Study: Zach Randolph

Since Zach is such a blazing hot topic lately and since we didn't talk about him enough in the context of team MVP (just ceding it to him by default) here's a question that's been on my mind lately:

Where does Zach rank vis-a-vis other stars/talents in the league?  

It's obvious Zach is not at a LeBron James/Dwyane Wade level.  As I'm typing this the results of our current poll show 42% of you think it would be crazy to trade him, which is the biggest single group.  However that means 58% of you would either like to see him shipped or are at least willing to consider the possibility.  If we asked that question about LeBron to Cleveland fans or Dwyane to Miami fans, the latter groups would be...ohhhh...right around ZERO. (OK, there might be one myopic old lady who clicked the wrong button by mistake.)  Sure you could say one or two people have an agenda behind their vote, but not 58%.  And Portland fans aren't stupid (at least not en masse).  Besides, if Steve Patterson rang up Cleveland and offered Zach for LeBron Cavaliers GM Danny Ferry would immediately suspect he was on Crank Yankers.  I don't think you can argue Zach is one of those untouchable A+++ talents.

That said, it's patently obvious that he's not Moochie Norris either.  The guy affects games.  The guy WINS games singlehandedly.  And his stats for the first quarter of this season put him among the league's highest echelon.

So he's somewhere north of Moochie, but south of Lebron and Dwyane.  That's still a lot of turf to cover.  Help us out here.  Complete the following sentence:  I think Zach is right around the talent/star level of ____ because _____.  

PLEASE NOTE that I am not asking for a comparison of SKILLS here.  We know Zach is a good offensive player with rebounding ability.  We don't need thirty people comparing him to Carlos Boozer just to understand that.  The player you compare him to might not have those same skills.  He may be a point guard, a distance shooter, whatever...it doesn't matter.  I just want to know what player(s) you think Z-Bo would rank near if you compiled a list of NBA stars from the best to the worst.  (If that is still Carlos Boozer, then be my guest...)

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)

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On the level of...
I'd say he's on the level of Joe Johnson; capable of taking over individual games, but not talented enough--at least not yet--to carry an otherwise mediocre team into the playoffs, like a Lebron James.

I was tempted to say Elton Brand, but clearly Zach's defense isn't anywhere near good enough to be lumped in with Brand, nor is his passing or decision-making, although Z-Bo has improved in those areas this season.

by jaspeers on Dec 7, 2006 11:27 PM PST reply actions  

Players I Would Liken Zach to...
are, not necessarily in order: Andrei Kirilenko, Chris Bosh, Michael Redd, Joe Johnson, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, Jermaine O'Neal, Ben Wallace, Baron Davis, and Ron Artest.  That is just a short list, but hopefully the orbit Zach exits in, in my opinion, is clear.  
As far as an explanation goes, I just used my overall sense of popularity, ability and contract terms.  Hopefully you can gleam something you were looking for!

by GimmeIme on Dec 7, 2006 11:37 PM PST reply actions  

Upper Tier Superstar
I say the Kobes, Steve Nashes, Kevin Garnetts, Lebrons, Young Shaqs and Dwayne Wades are UBER-STARS who (usually) are untradeable and rule the league and that is indisputable.  Below them are the rest of the stars of the league...

The Vince Carters, Tracy McGradys, Jason Kidds, Jermaine O'Neal, Ray Allens, Michael Redds, Chris Boshes, Joe Johnsons, Lamar Odoms, AK-47s, Paul Pierces, Shawn Marions, Elton Brands, Baron Davises, Rashard Lewises, Rip Hamiltons, Chauncey Billups, Carmelo Anthonys, Ron Artests, Peja Stojakavics, Tim Duncans, Dirk Nowitzkis, Allen Iversons, and yes, the ZACH RANDOLPHs.  I say he has made the jump to this group this year, making the leap from the level of MEDIUM STARS.

Obviously, some Upper Tier Stars are better than others and some could be borderline UBER-stars (or go back and forth between uber and simply upper tier), but their game just isn't as otherworldly ALL THE TIME to be considered Uber.  Plus, although they aren't often traded, it is not unheard of and happens every year.

To clarify, I don't think Zach sometimes crosses the line from Upper Tier to UBER STAR.  But he definately is up there as an Upper Tier Star.      

Below Upper Tier are the MEDIUM STARS, like the Kirk Hinrichs, Ben Gordons, Jarrett Jacks, Tyson Chandlers, Mike Bibbys, Shane Battiers, Eddy Currys, Jamal Crawfords, Manu Ginoblis, Josh Howards, Al Harringtons, and so on.  Medium stars can have great games, usually are solid, but can't lead a team and carry them on their back NIGHT AFTER NIGHT.  A game here and there, sure.  I say Zach was a medium star last year.  Some of these guys are on their way up to Upper Tier like Zach did or on the way down like a Grant Hill.

Zach is a flawed superstar who does some things at the highest level in the NBA (low post scoring and offensive rebounding) and some things not as well and needs other players around him to cover those flaws.  Most of the players in the Upper Tier are like that too.  Most are bad at defense too (or don't even try), so when we complain about Zach's defensive liabilities, it's not really uncommon amongst his level of star.

There might be another step inbetween Upper Tier and Uber Star, one inhabited by Tim Duncans and Dirk Nowitzkis and others, but I just thought of this just now and don't feel like writing much more.  I'm sure everyone has scanned this briefly and moved on to the next post.  I can't say you missed much.

Zach is a star.  Just not the tippety top level of star.  That's still very good!  If he were to be traded, it would have to be for another star.  Trading him for salary cap space would be silly, for example.  He has made the jump where he has to be respected by us and others more than that.

I should note I didn't expect this from Zach, but I am happy to be surprised.

Mortimer  

     

by Mortimer on Dec 8, 2006 1:12 AM PST reply actions  

I would put
Dirk and Duncan among the uber stars, and i think your blazer bias has JJ a little too high.  I would love for him to be that good, but i think its too soon.  I would put Chris Paul and Tony Parker in that group before Jack.  Jack still has a lot to prove.

other than that i think its a pretty good assesment

by BlazerBandit on Dec 8, 2006 1:21 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree I got Blazer Biase
But I think Jack is on his way to being a medium star... his numbers are on par with Dream Teamer Kirk Hinrich, Sam Cassell, TJ Ford, Devin Harris, Mike James, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, near-Dream Teamer Luke Ridnour, Jamaal Tinsley, and Jason Terry.

I think most of us would agree that those point guards would be considered at least "Medium Stars", and Jack is playing (numbers wise) right up there with them.  Some of those guys are on better teams so their numbers aren't as high as they'd be on a lesser team (where they'd be depended on more), but not all.  And Jack hasn't been depended on as a second option, even though he has become one in some games.

I think Jack and Jameer Nelson have both made the jump to Medium Star, or at least in Jack's case to be on the way to becoming a Medium Star.  

Compared to Marbury and Steve Francis, we're sure getting a lot more for our money with Jack.  

And as I think about it more, I agree with you about Duncan and Nowitzki and Tony Parker and Chris Paul... I knew there'd be people I forgot or mis-labeled.    

Mortimer

by Mortimer on Dec 8, 2006 2:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Between Uber-tier and Uber star
I was looking at your list and as I looked I thought that a trade straight up for most people in the Uber tier list would be bad for us, but a trade for the Uber star would be bad for them. So I think if he continues playing at the level he has been that a trade at the level in between he Uber-tier and Uber star that you mentioned is where he belongs. I think a trade for Anthony, Nowitzkis, and players on that level would be pretty even.

I'm not really a Zach fan, but he's been playing out of his mind this year, and the numbers he puts up really seem to put him at that level.

Brian

by bmerrell on Dec 8, 2006 1:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Zach VS Others...
I agree, a trade straight up for a lot of the Upper Tier Stars wouldn't be good for the Blazers.  Vince Carter for Zach?  Zach scores 1 point less, but rebounds more.  I'd say they both play the same level of defense.  Vince sure looks a lot better when he scores though...

Zach for Ray Allen?  Same thing.  Lotsa offense, bad defense.  But Zach also rebounds.  While it'd be nice to have a great shooter like Ray Allen firing away, does he offer more than Zach?

Aside from an Uber-Star (or an Upper Tier Star CLOSE to being an Uber-Star), trading Zach straight up doesn't seem like it would work in our favor.  Perhaps we could trade Zach if we include a Jarrett Jack or other pieces, and get an Uber-Star that way... maybe we can fool McHale into giving us Garnett.  But I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'd be fine trading Zach if it was the right deal... even though he's played incredible this year, I just don't find myself as attached to him as I am to Roy, Webster, Aldridge, and others.  But I have no idea what kind of trade would make sense for the Blazers...

Like I said, I think Zach gets lots less respect than other offensive minded players because he simply doesn't look as good doing what he does.  He's gangly and awkward, not smooth and highlight-reel ready like a Vince Carter.

Again, not that Zach doesn't his deficiencies.  But thats par for the course with most Upper Tier Stars.  

Mortimer

by Mortimer on Dec 8, 2006 2:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Zach has the same impact on a team
as Kobe does, at least offensively.  If you let him, he will go against triple teams and still try and shoot the ball.  He is capable of taking over a game and winning it.  He always wants the ball in his hands.  He also should probably pass it more, but doesn't have the confidence in his teammates to make the shots.  The more he's in the offense, the more he inhibits other teammates development. In a trade you would not get equal value back for them.

That being said, I hate Kobe and like Zach.  That probably has more to do with Laker/Blazer ties, or my split personality.

by BlazerBandit on Dec 8, 2006 1:16 AM PST reply actions  

He's not there.
Zach is the star of the Portland Trailblazers. The #1.....but I would have to say that I dont think he is in the top 20-25 players in the league. I just talking about value out on the court.
Do you remeber when Andre Miller was putting up rediculous numbers on a horrible Cleveland team? He then moved on to a quality team and his production leveled. This is how I see Zach. An excellent piece for the right team but nobody you should design the team around.
Ill say that Zach is right around the level of Michael Redd. He's another scorer who can will his team to wins and get a few pretty assists but you get absolutely nothing on the defensive end. Both are tremendously consistant and dont work well without the offense running through them.

There is something kind of magical about Zach's game.
For one, its just sooooooo ugly. so akward. Like watching Ron artest. These guys are the anti-jordans, the anti-mcgrady's. Zach is no frills, just power, power, power. I love it. In ways I feel like he's a real throwback. He would have been legendary in the 1970's or 80's. Before being 6-9 253 lbs. was "undersized". Back when they didnt make THAT much cash and maybe he had to do a little pimpin on the side. Rollin around in a coup deville, playin dominoes on the team bus. Before hip-hop culture, where hed be rockin some Marvin, Stevie and Al Green.

by DropstepJ on Dec 8, 2006 1:36 AM PST reply actions  

Magic...
What I love about Zach's game is that each time he has the ball, there's no way you can say, "He's not going to score."  He can be triple-teamed or out of position and still some way, somehow, he spins or jukes or you just blink your eyes and don't know WHAT he did but he gets un-stuck and puts the ball in the hoop.

Some guys in baseball are dangerous because they have a textbook swing and a great eye.  Other guys are dangerous because they have the uncanny ability to take any ball, even one out of the strike zone that classic hitters would shy away from, and give it a ride.  Zach is the latter.  In fact I'm not sure I've seen many better.

Another comparison:  Peyton Manning is the best quarterback in the universe at making your play go right.  Michael Vick is the best quarterback in the universe when your play goes wrong.  Zach tends more towards the Vick side of things.

--Dave

by Dave on Dec 8, 2006 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Dear God....
I know you did not just compare Z-bo to Magic Johnson did you?  Come on Dave, you can't be serious. To compare the two is to quote from White Men Can't Jump when Wesley compares Woody's shot to his own.

" That's an ugly shot, no asthetic beauty whatsoever, looks like a goddamn brick.  On the other hand, (shoots), it's so pretty, just so pretty.

You get the point.

Mick

by Oldskool Mick on Dec 8, 2006 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

DropstepJ said...
"There's something kind of magical about Zach's game."  The title of my post was in reference to that assertion, not in reference to Mr. Johnson.

--Dave

by Dave on Dec 8, 2006 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Mebury
I would describe Zach as the Stephon Marbury of power forwards.  (Well, think Steph in his prime, not now.)  Awesome talent, capable of taking over and winning a game.  The problem with both is that not only do they not enhance the play of their teammates, sometimes their selfishness on offense actually kills the games of the guys they're playing with.

I imagine that, like Marbury, Zach will get kicked around from team to team at some point in his career, and I doubt he retires with a ring.  I also whole-heartedly hope I'm wrong about all of the above, but that'd be my honest take on the guy right now.

by Toast on Dec 8, 2006 4:14 AM PST reply actions  

Zachles Randley?
Zach reminds me of Charles Barkley.  Charles played in a larger television market and the Sixers were consistently in the playoffs, so he got more positive press  He was also undersized and earthbound.  His offense was not pretty, but he could consistently score and rebound.

The difference in the two is mostly one of maturity.  Charles was more competitive than Zach and wanted to win games and championships.  Zach wants to look good himself, but his desire for the team success is oftentimes questionable.  Charles could grasp the importance of playing defense and executing a game plan and that translated into action.  Zach doesn't have the attitude or self-discipline to play the whole game, and his body may become a limiting factor by the time his brain gets to the point where he is convinced that the coach knows more about what he should be doing than he does.  

Zach's play thus far makes him marketable.  He is earning his paycheck in terms of points and rebounds.  Some nights he earns it with his willingness to play defense and pass to open teammates.  The Blazers and the fans can look to those games with hope that he will continue to mature and become the complete franchise player.  But the inconsistent attitude continues to keep Zach out of the "untouchables" category and, I would imagine, it keeps Mr. Pritchard close to the phone.

by bbfred on Dec 8, 2006 7:31 AM PST reply actions  

Earthbound?

Charles Barkley?

Maybe the old Charles Barkley that played for the Rockets (and I won't even discuss the now-retired-and-fat-as-hell edition that graces NBA broadcasts)--but the Round Mound, despite his robust gut, was an awesome leaper in his prime.  

Go check out the Barkley highlight reel that Henry posted over on TrueHoop if you don't believe me.

by EngineerScotty on Dec 8, 2006 8:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Fair enough
I assume all front line NBA players are capable of leaping ability, especially when they are 6'4".  Charles was capable of getting off the ground and Zach is too.  I was referring more to the way they produce - they both rely on a combination of strength and quickness to get their points and rebounds, not the ability to out jump the other players.

by bbfred on Dec 8, 2006 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Sir Charles
Zach is barely able to get off the ground.  Charles was a leaper.  That, along with his strenth and quickness was why he was the best rebounder at that heigth the NBA has ever seen.,

by TwoDeep on Dec 9, 2006 8:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Marbury...
is a good comparison.  I was thinking Vince Carter.  All the offensive skills in the world, lack of desire on defense (it might cut into his offensive energy), and off the court you never know what to expect next.

You want so badly to root for him.  You want to embrace him, but you just never feel comfortable getting too content.

by ken @ Blazer's Edge on Dec 8, 2006 7:46 AM PST reply actions  

I wouldn't compare Zach to Starbury

Zach, for all his faults, is unquestionably an asset on the Blazers balance sheet.  He's flawed, but he's not a cancer.  (He might be a lymph node, useful by himself, but dangerous when there's a tumor nearby).

Starbury, on the other hand, is poison wherever he goes.  How many teams now have decided they are sick of him?  Minnesota, Phoenix, New York...

If Portland were to trade Randolph today, we could probably get a decent package of good players, picks, and or expiring contracts.

If IT were to call about trading Marbury, he'd get laughed at by the GM at the other end of the phone.

by EngineerScotty on Dec 8, 2006 8:40 AM PST up reply actions  

The Marbury thing was in reply (sort of) to...
Toast's entry.  My real comparison was Vince Carter.

by ken @ Blazer's Edge on Dec 8, 2006 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

Value
In terms of NBA value, which is what I think you asked for Dave, I would put him on the level right now of Ray Allen.  But I supposed if you think about it, Seattle could probably get more for Allen than we could get for Zach, therefore he may be a little short of that level (but probably not a ton short).  Zach's knee would lessen his value somewhat and I supposed Allen's age would lessen his to a similar degree.

Above posts equated his value to Michael Redd, but I think Redd would bring much more in a trade than Zach.  

by TwoDeep on Dec 8, 2006 8:37 AM PST reply actions  

How about Larry Johnson 91-93
I've been trying to think in the past who Zach is most like, because there really isn't a player like Zach in the NBA right now.  Larry Johnson in the 91-93 seasons reminded me a lot of Zach now - though Zach is a little more dominating with both hands, taller, and stronger.  We have to remember how young Zach is, and barring a back injury should continue to put up these numbers.

Larry Johnson was a franchise player and it was unthinkable to trade him until his injury.  Zach is much more difficult to consider due to his off court stuff.  On one hand, no one works harder on his game than Zach.  On the other, he still makes too many mistakes at this point in his career.

I just don't see how you can trade Zach, there's nothing you'll get back to him that gives us what he gives us now.  Zach, in many ways, is a unique player.

by wilbjammin on Dec 8, 2006 9:12 AM PST reply actions  

I will say
hes in the Jamison, Marbury, Ricky Davis, Stackhouse (of 4 years ago), Maggette level.

He's a offensive stud, who can score, is being overpaid, and can't play that good of D. He's not a superstar, but he's not chump bait either. He is of big value, and can help teams win.

I would care if we traded Zach because I would want to know what we got in return. I think we should trade him, but not for nothing. I think we better get a 1st rounder for him, and a pretty usable piece.

by junit3123 @ Blazer's Edge on Dec 8, 2006 9:20 AM PST reply actions  

To Me...
Zach is a unique player.

He's surprisingly non-athletic, yet is nearly a magician in finishing near the basket. He can also be a force under the boards at both ends of the floor. I would say he's clearly in the top 4 PF's in the league in this catagory.

Then again, his lack of concentration or care defensively is equalling amazing. Here he slides to the very bottom of the barrel.

No other player comes to mind like this.

If nothing else, he's certainly unique.

by blazerprophet on Dec 8, 2006 9:43 AM PST reply actions  

i guess you people
missed a real superstar in
d.howard last week so hey
i know you people don't
see real superstars do you
well anyway d.howard,c.boozer
t.duncan,k.garnett will be
in vegas for the all*star game
zbo will be home with his
little hoop squad wacthing the
game in is so called crib a
superstar boy you people need
to get out more wow and
dave on nba shootaround tuesday
night they had boozer on and
vs every all*star power foward
this season he's outplayed
them head2head so on 12/30/06
when zbo gets to utah mr.boozer
will be waiting the only real
player that loser coach k ever
produced g.hill gets hurt too
much for my taste and you
blazers fans need to get out more..

by fatty on Dec 8, 2006 11:49 AM PST reply actions  

It's true
we're somewhat provincial, but then when you live in a beautiful city in the middle of some of the most beautiful country in the world and you have one of the warmest, most heartfelt, and in many ways most successful basketball traditions anybody has ever seen you can forgive some of that.

If his level of play keeps up and the Blazers don't lose the next 20 straight Zach will at least receive some consideration for the all-star game.  It's a tough road for any power forward in the West with guys like Duncan, Nowitzki, Garnett, and Brand out there, but he'll be talked about.

Oh...and it doesn't matter how folks match up head-to-head in the all-star game.  They don't actually guard each other, more stand generally in the vicinity of each other while they take turns shooting.  In fact they could save wear and tear on the league's best players by simply placing life-sized cardboard cutouts of the participants with their arms half-raised on each defensive end of the court.  If you knock one over it's an automatic offensive foul...

--Dave

by Dave on Dec 8, 2006 11:56 AM PST up reply actions  

While I shouldn't feed the troll...
...Boozer has to be productive for more than 1/4 season to get the label "superstar".  He'll get his first playoff opportunity this year.

Fatty brings up an interesting point, though.  For years, Duke players underachieved in the NBA.  It was the opinion of many that like his mentor (Bobby Knight), Coach K was excellent at getting the best out of middling players--players who would then falter at the next level.

Yet look at the number of Dookies doing well this season:

  • Elton Brand
  • Deng
  • Battier
  • Duhon
  • Landlord
  • Maggette
  • Boozer

Even gimpy old Grant Hill, after years on the bench with injuries, is productive this year.

Of course, that still leaves guys like Jay Williams (Duke point guards should never ride in motor vehicles), Dunleavy Jr, and J.J. "please can I get off the bench?" Redick.  But still--you could put together an awesome NBA squad out of nothing but active Dukies--Boozer, Brand, Deng, Hill, and Duhon starting, Battier as a sixth man extraordinaire, and the rest of them coming off the bench.  Only weakness is no legitimate center, but only a handful of teams have 7' players who can regularly abuse smaller lineups.

by EngineerScotty on Dec 8, 2006 12:17 PM PST up reply actions  

adrian dantley
although dantley may have been better. dantley had to dominate the ball to score, but led the league in scoring a few times, shot a high percentage, shot free throws well and got to the line a lot, couldn't jump.....when he finally was on a championship team in detroit his role was cut way down.
ignacio

by ignacio on Dec 8, 2006 12:17 PM PST reply actions  

And he was traded away

the year the Pistons won their first title (for Mark Aguirre)--yet another reason to hate Isaih Thomas.

by EngineerScotty on Dec 8, 2006 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

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